Author Topic: Islam  (Read 42882 times)

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #100 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 12:57:07 »
Quote from: chimera15;223194
Yup, they are, or at least were.  I found it amazing when I learned about it myself.  They're really more of a theocracy right now of course.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:LwpC2NmpkksJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Iranian_relations+iran+nazi&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

"The Shah went on to ask the international community to use the native name of "Iran" in 1935[10] to address to his country, which in Persian means 'Land of the Aryans' and refers to Airyanem Vaejah, the Avestan name of the original homeland of the Aryans."


interesting link.

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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #101 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 13:09:07 »
Quote from: ch_123;223214
Apparently you weren't up until the point you ran out of ideas. But by all means, keep going, I'm dying to see what comes next.


Um what?? I made my point...you never did. Because you don't have one. And each post  you make makes less sense than the one before.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #102 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 13:22:32 »
Deflection, even on the same page where I made the the point you claimed I didn't. Excellent job. A++

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« Reply #103 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 13:28:41 »
Quote from: ch_123;223236
Deflection, even on the same page where I made the the point you claimed I didn't. Excellent job. A++


...and what exactly is your point? :biggrin:

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #104 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 13:36:29 »
Clearly my work here is done.

*disappears in puff of smoke*

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« Reply #105 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 13:43:37 »
Quote from: kishy;223241
I can't honestly be the only person who sees clearly that CH did in fact make his point numerous times, very clearly, and backed up properly?

Ahh ok."catholicism is a disgusting dinosaur religion". Complete with full Wikipedia references. I give his thesis an F+ but that's just me.

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #106 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 14:25:08 »
Quote from: ripster;223182
Nazis made the trains run on time.
No, the Fascists made the trains run on time. Hitler didn't need to do that, because German trains ran on time even before he came along.

Kids these days, forgetting all their history.

Quote from: Senor_Cartmenez;223146
Churches usually have some sort of youth programs and stuff where the "good young future christians" can meet and do "young christian stuff" without being monitored by adults all the time. Don't know bout the US but that's very common here in Germany.
In the United States, that would be impossible, and it would violate the law in most states, and probably Federal law as well. (Unless I misunderstand you, and you don't actually mean young people of both sexes in the same time and place.)

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that Kraft Durch Freude still lives on in another form in Germany, but I am.
« Last Edit: Tue, 14 September 2010, 14:29:42 by quadibloc »

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #107 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 15:36:36 »
i'll say this for catholicism. they did modernize, in the end. Vatican II was hard but it was done, in the end. The catholic church today is a far cry from what it was in medieval times. ANd thats more than we can say for, well, islam, which the world is still waiting on.

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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #108 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 15:48:36 »
Ch_123 is from a country that probably by all rights has the worst abuses (in recent years) at the hands of Catholics. Which is very unfortunate, but shouldn't be blamed on Catholicism as a whole. The Irish Catholics who committed these abuses are solely to blame. But it's always easier to point the finger elsewhere...

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #109 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 15:49:21 »
Yes, clearly in touch with the modern world.

The only difference between Christian extremism and Islamic extremism at the end of the day is that must people in developed countries just laugh at stuff like this. Maybe there's something to be learned here when we're trying to figure out how to make people in Muslim countries laugh at their extremists, because that's the only way you can really get people to turn away from that stuff.

Quote
The Irish Catholics who committed these abuses are solely to blame. But it's always easier to point the finger elsewhere...


The central hierarchy (including the Pope and his predecessors) of the Church knew exactly what was going on in Ireland and other countries which probably had it just as bad. Years later they're still not coming forward with all the details, and trying to shirk the blame wherever possible. Blaming the people on the ground just won't work.
« Last Edit: Tue, 14 September 2010, 16:03:30 by ch_123 »

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #110 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 15:54:23 »
Quote from: ch_123;223304
Yes, clearly in touch with the modern world.


look, they used to  burn such people at the stake, they dont anymore. I'll take it.

whcih is a lot more than we can say for contemporary islam.

just sayin'. sure, the church has some ways to go in comparison to humanistic ideals. But they've left their most directly violent policies behind and deserve grudging credit for that.  It wasnt easy for an institution at the center of western civ for 2000 years to relinquish its absolute hold on the absolute center. Which is precisely what it did (was forced to, but accepted it by rewriting many of its central policies -- that was the hard part).  Vatican II after all was and is immensely controversial even today among the true believers (just ask mel gibson and his dad). It took courage for the institution to change in the face of modern knowledge and values.  And tahts more than mainstream islamic institutions have done.

its the kind of courage castro is showing today, which the people's party in china has yet to do.

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #111 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 16:04:42 »
come, let us dance around the may pole.






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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #112 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 16:10:43 »
it was an ancient sacred pagan ritual. here are some instructions:


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Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #113 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 16:10:52 »
Hmm. Zoom is on, but not macro.

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« Reply #114 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 17:36:22 »
I got a "May-pole" tree in my front yard that's 200 years old!
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #115 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 18:36:59 »
Quote from: ch_123;223304
The central hierarchy (including the Pope and his predecessors) of the Church knew exactly what was going on in Ireland and other countries which probably had it just as bad. Years later they're still not coming forward with all the details, and trying to shirk the blame wherever possible. Blaming the people on the ground just won't work.


I agree that what the Church did in this situation was inexcusable however they did not actually commit the acts. Those who committed the acts are the only ones to blame for the acts. I guess my point is, you can blame the pope (I'm not a big fan of him myself), you can blame the hierarchy (which I'm not a big fan of either), but don't blame Catholicism as a whole. There's a lot of good Catholics in the world and it's not fair to them.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #116 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 18:45:09 »
Definitely. I know plenty of good people who are Catholic. But is it the Catholicism that makes them good people? Would they be bad people if they had a different religion, or none at all? The sad reality is that if a Catholic rejects, for example, the homophobic ravings of the pope as being just that, then they are a good person, but a bad Catholic.

I guess you could say that that is my "point".

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #117 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 18:48:19 »
Quote from: ch_123;223384
Definitely. I know plenty of good people who are Catholic. But does the Catholicism make them good people? Would they be different people if they had a different religion, or none at all? The sad reality is that if a Catholic rejects, for example, the homophobic ravings of the pope as being just that, then they are a good person, but a bad Catholic.

I guess you could say that that is my "point".


I agree with that. But it depends who views them as a 'bad Catholic'. I know I wouldn't.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #118 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 18:53:21 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;223358
I got a "May-pole" tree in my front yard that's 200 years old!


itln? "I"ve got your may pole right here."?

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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #119 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 18:55:30 »
Maybe nobody will directly judge you (in most modern societies), but you have the cognitive dissonance associated with your most basic human empathy being at odds with the faith you subscribe to. In that situation, I would find myself a new religion.

Then again, I'm not religious, so I assume that people of such inclination will consider their religious beliefs and change accordingly, like swapping broadband providers. In reality I assume that various social/personal constraints may cause people to become disinterested in their religion without necessarily deciding that they are non-religious...
« Last Edit: Tue, 14 September 2010, 19:14:36 by ch_123 »

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #120 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 19:18:49 »
Quote from: ch_123;223392
Maybe nobody will directly judge you (in most modern societies), but you have the cognitive dissonance associated with your most basic human empathy being at odds with the faith you subscribe to. In that situation, I would find myself a new religion.

Then again, I'm not religious, so I assume that people of such inclination will consider their religious beliefs and change accordingly, like swapping broadband providers. In reality I assume that various social/personal constraints may cause people to become disinterested in their religion without necessarily deciding that they are non-religious...


Yea I actually have considered that many times but at this point I just kind of can't be bothered...and I don't really harbor bad feelings about Catholicism as a whole because I was taught (mostly) by good people who knew that doing what's right is more important than doing what some organization (religious or otherwise) tells you. As I've said, it's got its flaws but it's not all bad.

Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #121 on: Wed, 15 September 2010, 18:30:53 »
Quote from: wellington1869;223390
itln? "I"ve got your may pole right here."?


No, my joke wasn't perverted. It's the old May-pole Tree joke I always told in Spanish class when I was a kid. Maple, May-pole...get it?
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Offline Ekaros

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« Reply #122 on: Sat, 18 September 2010, 14:04:45 »
Catholics can do it too:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11332515
He said: "Even in our own lifetimes we can recall how Britain and her leaders stood against a Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society and denied our common humanity to many, especially the Jews, who were thought unfit to live.

"As we reflect on the sobering lessons of atheist extremism of the 20th century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus a reductive vision of a person and his destiny."

I thought Hitler was christian?
So I should add something useless here yes? Ok, ok...
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Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #123 on: Sat, 18 September 2010, 15:56:03 »
Quote from: Ekaros;224455
I thought Hitler was christian?
Hitler came from a Catholic background. However, saying that he "sought to eradicate God from society" is not dishonest, since he did interfere with the independent operation and functioning of churches in Germany and other areas under his control, attempting to turn them into organs of the State. And the Nazis did attempt to educate young people in such a way that loyalty to Nazism, not to other institutions like the church, would come first in their lives.

Offline Ekaros

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« Reply #124 on: Sat, 18 September 2010, 16:13:34 »
Quote from: quadibloc;224487
Hitler came from a Catholic background. However, saying that he "sought to eradicate God from society" is not dishonest, since he did interfere with the independent operation and functioning of churches in Germany and other areas under his control, attempting to turn them into organs of the State. And the Nazis did attempt to educate young people in such a way that loyalty to Nazism, not to other institutions like the church, would come first in their lives.


Hmm, that isn't too anti-religious. State mandate religion more of... Godvin, again...
So I should add something useless here yes? Ok, ok...
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Offline Soarer

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« Reply #125 on: Sat, 18 September 2010, 16:14:27 »
So eradicating God is on a par with Nazism, and virtue is meaningless without religion? LOL!

Can't think why, but I just can't take him seriously.


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« Reply #126 on: Sat, 18 September 2010, 17:06:16 »
Hmmm...classy...

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« Reply #127 on: Sat, 18 September 2010, 17:10:50 »
There should be a rule here against gross pictures.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #128 on: Sat, 18 September 2010, 17:12:06 »
Says dead rabbit guy.

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #129 on: Sun, 19 September 2010, 15:24:00 »
Quote from: Ekaros;224455
Catholics can do it too:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11332515

I was forced to listen to some of the Pope's speeches, by virtue of all other news being pushed off air (at least it felt that way.) It was indeed remarkable that he should openly admit his belief that a society can not operate well without religion to steer it.

It is a good reminder that behind the friendly facade, Christians share the same arrogance as Muslims and every other religion - the opinion that they have the right belief despite being the ones who have no evidence to support that belief.

I still think that Christianity has grown up a bit compared to some others, but maybe only because it was forced upon them. If they became dominant again maybe they would return to their old ways.
« Last Edit: Sun, 19 September 2010, 15:28:03 by Rajagra »

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #130 on: Sun, 19 September 2010, 16:15:36 »
Quote from: Rajagra;224728
If they became dominant again maybe they would return to their old ways.
Christianity is dominant in the Western world. But there certainly are some Christian denominations that believe in the "old ways", and it is true that Roman Catholicism is at least partway there. This is why the idea of Sarah Palin becoming President makes my hair stand on end.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #131 on: Sun, 19 September 2010, 16:20:58 »
In the context here, I read "dominant" as the position within society and whether they get mixed up in things like politics, education, laws etc.

Which is why I always chuckle when the Pope goes on about the 'evils' of secularism.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #132 on: Sun, 19 September 2010, 17:40:31 »
Quote from: ch_123;224736
In the context here, I read "dominant" as the position within society and whether they get mixed up in things like politics, education, laws etc.

Which is why I always chuckle when the Pope goes on about the 'evils' of secularism.


i just dont think evil is a 'religion vs secularism' issue. both have done evil and both have done good. depends on the religion and depends on the secular ideologies. 'religion' and 'secularism' are too broad as categories to make value judgements about them, i think.

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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #133 on: Sun, 19 September 2010, 18:17:28 »
True. You did have perfectly secular societies that did horrible things - look at Stalinist Russia. But maybe it's easier to fool people into doing stuff when it involves magical faeries and a harem of virgins in heaven? I don't know, I'm not a sociologist.

I guess the main issue above all others is not to be an *******.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #134 on: Sun, 19 September 2010, 18:39:20 »
Quote from: ch_123;224753
True. You did have perfectly secular societies that did horrible things - look at Stalinist Russia. But maybe it's easier to fool people into doing stuff when it involves magical faeries and a harem of virgins in heaven? .


well the marxists had their own secular version of magic and fairies and heaven and salvation and utopia and monolithic enemies to scare you and utopia to attract you, both linked together by a magical 'inevitable' historical process which they saw at work everywhere in the world.

i think any kind of excessive fear (or desire) can pretty much get people to do just about anything, whatever myth (religious or secular) its based on.

excessive pride, excessive hate, excessive fear, excessive desire -- all of these make people exploitable if you can feed these to them.  (And if you have a monopoly over the sources of information reaching a group of people, then you can feed it to them).

aristotle and buddha were right: the golden mean, cultivated and achieved via  a habit of self-awareness of our emotional states and what they're making us do (or not do), is our only protection.

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Offline ricercar

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« Reply #135 on: Sun, 19 September 2010, 19:12:15 »
Quote from: quadibloc;224735
the idea of Sarah Palin becoming President makes my hair stand on end.


If this happens, the US will become a 4-year reality TV show.
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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #136 on: Sun, 19 September 2010, 21:20:07 »
Quote from: wellington1869;224754


excessive pride, excessive hate, excessive fear, excessive desire -- all of these make people exploitable if you can feed these to them.

one could add: excessive sympathy, too.

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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #137 on: Sun, 19 September 2010, 21:22:11 »
Quote from: ricercar;224767
If this happens, the US will become a 4-year reality TV show.


One could argue that with Obama in office, the US currently already is a 4-year reality tv show.

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« Reply #138 on: Sun, 19 September 2010, 22:38:14 »
isn't it obama vs. the christians? cuz you can pretty much say all republican senators are some sort of christian.
I mean these are the retards that believe obama is not a us citizen, cuz well he's black and he can't possibily be christian cuz he's muslim cuz he's black.

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« Reply #139 on: Mon, 20 September 2010, 07:36:20 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;224787
One could argue that with Obama in office, the US currently already is a 4-year reality tv show.
I suppose one could. But if one did, one would be wrong.

It's unfortunate indeed that Obama chose to play partisan politics with the War on Terror. But I have no sympathy with the Republicans who obstructed the United States from joining the rest of the civilized world in ensuring - in a simple, uncomplicated fashion, instead of a bureaucratic nightmare that continues to involve private health insurers - that every American who needs medical care just gets it, with the government paying.

I don't know why the two parties don't get it, and I hope someday someone will. Americans want their country to be strong, and to stand up against tyrants and dictators of whatever stripe anywhere in the world. But they also want the economy to be strong - with Americans producing the things Americans use, so that ordinary working people in America are prosperous.

Or, to put it even more simply:

We can shut down the auto factories and steel mills after all the black people are sending their kids to college, so that we would need to let in immigrants from Mexico to find people who would work in them - not before.

That's the way to end the drug problem in America. That's the way to build a strong and healthy and united nation.

Offline pikapika

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« Reply #140 on: Tue, 21 September 2010, 16:10:14 »
religious thread are always serious fun

though instead of trying to find if god exists, i'm really wondering about the real existence of microsoft windows (not the software of course)

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #141 on: Tue, 21 September 2010, 16:19:45 »
EIBM certainly doesn't seem to exist any more. A bit like Limbo really.

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« Reply #142 on: Tue, 21 September 2010, 18:56:09 »
Quote from: quadibloc;224856
I suppose one could. But if one did, one would be wrong.

It's unfortunate indeed that Obama chose to play partisan politics with the War on Terror. But I have no sympathy with the Republicans who obstructed the United States from joining the rest of the civilized world in ensuring - in a simple, uncomplicated fashion, instead of a bureaucratic nightmare that continues to involve private health insurers - that every American who needs medical care just gets it, with the government paying.


I still think I'm correct regarding the very un-presidential way Obama involves himself in pop-culture and civilian issues (he gives his opinions publicly on every little thing). That's a big part of why he's so unpopular here right now. Also he really set himself up with that sexy campaign and has failed to deliver on most of the things he promised.

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« Reply #143 on: Wed, 22 September 2010, 06:58:27 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;225264
Also he really set himself up with that sexy campaign and has failed to deliver on most of the things he promised.


almost no president of any countries have enough power to really change the way people live.
multinational firms have the power

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« Reply #144 on: Wed, 22 September 2010, 08:00:59 »
Quote from: pikapika;225331
almost no president of any countries have enough power to really change the way people live.
multinational firms have the power

That's not how democracy is supposed to be...imo we've had better presidents in the past.

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« Reply #145 on: Wed, 22 September 2010, 08:10:09 »
True dat.  FDR was awesome.


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« Reply #146 on: Wed, 22 September 2010, 08:28:09 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;225347
That's not how democracy is supposed to be...imo we've had better presidents in the past.


but in the past national governements had more power, before globalization

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« Reply #147 on: Thu, 23 September 2010, 15:29:24 »
My theory is that he had a Macintosh in his closet all this time.

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« Reply #148 on: Thu, 23 September 2010, 16:14:37 »
Oh, so now I understand the phrase "coming out of the closet"!
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« Reply #149 on: Thu, 23 September 2010, 16:17:03 »
Yeah.

It's actually nothing to do with sexual orientation at all.