Switches now vs Switches from 7 years ago?

[loki993]

I've had a Leopold FC750R with Cherry Red switches for the past 7 years as my main keyboard.

At that time it was basically Cherry then everyone else. Gaetron and Kailh were just coming on and were not as good as the cherrys. Seems that opinion has changed, also there are TON more options out there now.

I got the Reds because I game but I've never typed well with them.

Silvers are intriguing, but Im not sure if they type better or worse than the reds.

I've run Blues, Browns they were ok but definitely not enough of a bump and I use a Keycool with clears for my work keyboard, which are nice but get fatiguing after a while. I cant swap the springs because the keycool has a plate.

Not sure if I want to stick with linear or go tactile, I would say at this point I'm 60 40 gaming vs typing.

What's good out there now or do I just stick with Cherrys?

[1391401]

There are a whole bunch of different kinds now made from different materials with different characteristics.  I suggest trying to figure out the kind that you like (linear, tactile, clicky, etc.) and do some experimenting   The cherry switches are still perfectly fine but plenty of different options out there now!

[loki993]

I fear my question may have too broad sort of like asking what switch is the best thats not what Im getting at.

The real question is have the other brands, which were the cheap/budget/good for the price brands when I got my KB better and are they worth considering over Cherrys?

Thats the real question

[Rhienfo]

I think you should first find out your preference, you should try out the main types to see what's your preference (or even different stuff like topre)

There are a lot of options but I think cherry is just old reliable. Modding them (breaking them in, lubing them, replacing the pretty bad springs) creates a very good switch that often is similar or even outperforms a lot of the higher end switches today. Cherry also has a really good sound if you care about that.

Of course there are tons of options, In terms of linears, Gateron has some nice switches, even some like the Gateron pro and Gateron X switches don't need any modding to feel good. JWKs are smooth when lubed but I feel are overpriced for what they are. I have used some kalih creams and once broken in and lubed I thought they were really nice.

Cherries are still cheap when compared to other switches but they have gone up in price. But you can find good deals for some cherry switches. You can find blacks and browns for .28c at some vendors, like geonworks. Gat X and Pros are well priced (I even still see pros for cheaper than cherries a lot of the time) JWKs and the Creams are not really a great value so only get them if you truly want them.

Silvers may not help you when it comes to typing. Cherry silvers have a shorter actuation and travel distance than the reds, so you may mistype more with them. I am personally using the silvers right now funnily enough, and I can type just fine on them, so it really does depend on you.

A potential reason why you may not like the reds for typing is the weighting of the spring. The weighting for the spring is 60g for reds (of course there is a lot of spring variance so keep in mind of that) so if you feel that the switch is too heavy for typing, buy a lighter weight consistent aftermarket spring and see if that helps, buy a heavier if you feel that the switch is too light for typing. The length may also be a factor, so if you feel that the weighting isn't the issue, you can buy longer springs to see if that's the issue. You may want to try all those options and see what's right for you, preferably with people who have those springs in the weighting you want, so you don't have to waste money. Tx springs as an example aren't too expensive (there like 8sud, probably cheaper) so it's not too big of an investment if you want to try them out, but does add up depending on how many you buy.

Hope this helps you in some way

[HungerMechanic]

I fear my question may have too broad sort of like asking what switch is the best thats not what Im getting at.

The real question is have the other brands, which were the cheap/budget/good for the price brands when I got my KB better and are they worth considering over Cherrys?

Thats the real question

Some of the former clone manufacturers now exceed Cherry, others produce significant new alternatives.

Gateron has always been known for smoothness [at a price-point], and this hasn't changed. Now, it offers many tactiles and linears that are smoother than Cherry offerings. Many have decent pre-lube as well, and the high-end are basically usable as-is.

Kailh made alternative non-Cherry designs. Its clicky switches are world-class, and affordable. [BOX White, Jade, Navy, etc...]. It also offers silent linears and tactiles.

Some new manufacturers started offering linears and sometimes tactiles that beat almost everyone in terms of quality-for-price. These are JWK/Durock [now overshadowed by JWICK] and KTT. There are also some budget brands like AKKO, TTC, Aula/Leobog, and obscure new entrants like MMD. And SP Star seems to produce slightly nicer versions of Cherry and some Durock switches.

So the entire range exists, from budget [but good] to midrange [being eaten by budget options], and some luxury options. As others said, you need to decide what you want, because the options out there are vastly greater than what they were 7 years ago. On the other hand, most of these switches are just better/more specialized/niche versions of the original Cherry designs + Ergo Clears, so if you know what you are looking for, you can find it.

[There are some genuinely new things, like the BOX clickies, Zeal Clickiez, TTC Bluish White, Gateron Kangaroo, U4/U4T/Holy Boba. And tactiles/linears with exotic springs and materials.]

[loki993]

Yeah the ergo clears have always intrigued me and I've wanted to try them. I think a tactile switch is what I like mostly, Ive always liked my clears and typed will on them, but they are just too heavy for me. I knew this going in though I thought I could get used it it,  just when I got the board I was very new in all of this and only after figured out that it was impossible to swap out the springs without unsoldering the entire board, which I was not prepared to do.

so ideally what I am probably looking for is something maybe the weight of a Brown or a little heavier, with a more pronounced bump.

[Rhienfo]

Yeah the ergo clears have always intrigued me and I've wanted to try them. I think a tactile switch is what I like mostly, Ive always liked my clears and typed will on them, but they are just too heavy for me. I knew this going in though I thought I could get used it it,  just when I got the board I was very new in all of this and only after figured out that it was impossible to swap out the springs without unsoldering the entire board, which I was not prepared to do.

so ideally what I am probably looking for is something maybe the weight of a Brown or a little heavier, with a more pronounced bump.

You should probably look for something that emulates an ergo clear. Stuff like a Penguin Tactile, Durock Medium Tactiles, Outemu Sky and Zealio V1 are all examples of this. You could always just by cherry clears and spring swap them, which would probably be cheaper than the new "ergo clears" that cherry are selling. However (I don't know if the new cherry clears fix this problem but it probably hasn't) there has been problems with the clear stems where they can potentially damage keycaps, so just keep in mind with that.

[HungerMechanic]

so ideally what I am probably looking for is something maybe the weight of a Brown or a little heavier, with a more pronounced bump.

"Heavier Brown" is a category that intersects with "light Ergo Clear," but I'll try my best.

[I'm typing on light Ergo Clears right now, BTW.]


There have been some 'heavier Browns' in the past few years. One of the latest is probably the TTC Golden Brown V3. I tried the V2, it felt like a 65 G Brown. The V3 are cheap and fairly consistent, but they need lube for better sound characteristics.

A more interesting 'heavier Brown' is Gateron CAP Brown V2 (or V3?). This is not a Cherry-design. It has a different internal layout. But stem-wise, it is a larger Brown. It uses a powerful 55 G spring, IIRC. So, overall, it's a more crisp and snappy Brown with a more clearly-defined bump. It is also smoother and somewhat pre-lubed.

I put some hand-lubed Gateron CAP Golden Brown V2 into a keyboard for a relative. Even on a cheap keyboard, these sound great with PBT keycaps and a polycarb plate. The Milky CAP Brown V2 had better sound than the Golden CAP Brown V2, but the latter may have caught up by now. These go on sale and should be around 25-35 cents a switch. They are all too snappy for my liking, but it is exactly what some people are looking for.

At around the same intensity, but with a heavier linear spring are the [Gateron] Zealio V1 redux. This was the first factory "Ergo Clear," and one of the first-ever custom switches. You can use it like a smoother, somewhat less-tactile Ergo Clear. Or put in a 60 G 14mm TX spring, lube modestly with 3204, and it is a slightly-larger Brown. Zealio V1 can be relatively expensive, but are on-sale right now.

[Zealio V1 Redux is a switch for customizers: you will need to lube it for better sound, and it is conventional enough in design to use some replacement springs. OTOH Gateron CAP Brown can be used as-is, and is not so amenable to modding. But they do take well to 3204.]

Another switch kind-of straddling the 'heavy Brown' and 'Ergo Clear' is the Huano/Ajazz Banana. Imagine reducing the spring-weight of an MX Brown, but increasing the bump size. That's basically an Ajazz Banana. Like a more extreme CAP Brown with worse stock sound. Comes in these fun 45-piece fruit tins. Smoother than MX Brown, but sounds more plasticy without lube.

Then you have actual Ergo Clears. You are in-luck. They are official now. You can buy actual Cherry "Ergo Clears." The stock spring at 67 G is a bit heavy. So you may wish to replace with 65 G 14mm TX, 63.5 G linear Spirit, 63.5 - 68 G Progressive Spirit, and many other choices. Cherry Ergo Clears are still gritty, but these factory Ergo Clears seem to have a little better factory-lube than usual, and are probably better than Clears from 7 years ago.

Durock Medium Tactile [and its many variants] is kind of like a cruder, slightly-larger, and cheaper Zealio V1. They are fine, do well with all types of lube, and benefit strongly from films. I like to use them with high-profile keycaps, and they are fine on many plate types.

The Penguin is a DMT variant. You can actually create a hybrid Clear/Penguin by using MX Clear / Ergo Clear stems in a Penguin housing. Lube the housing, but only the tactile bump on the Clear stem. You can get away with 60 G springs this way. Instead of the stock 63.5.

BTW Maybe the best factory "Ergo Clear" are the Naevy 1.5 switches. They actually seem to have Clear-like properties, but are built better. Factory lube is decent, they do well with 3204. The 2.0 is out, but I haven't tried them. They may be more tactile.

So there you have it. Those are just some of the main options.

TTC Golden Brown V3 > Cheap heavy Brown, plasticy.
Gateron CAP Brown V2 > Ready-made snappy Brown. Cheap. Can be lubed.
Zealio V1 Redux > Fancy large Brown / Light Ergo Clear. For customization.
Huano / Ajazz Banana > Big-bump Brown with a light spring. Plasticy and loud.
Cherry Ergo Clear > The real thing. Gritty and needs lube. Dramatic effect from spring types.
Durock Medium Tactile > Cheaper Zealio V1, many variants. Use films.
Naevy 1.5 > Smooth light Ergo Clear with decent factory-lube. Use 3204.



There's also a few switches just a bit heavier than an Ergo Clear. The T1 and its million variants are one, as are the SP Star Magic Girl, which are said to be well-built but needing lube. You can also build light Holy Pandas, which are like crunchier Ergo Clears.



There are also some absurdly-cheap Panda-like switches that are worth trying. Like you can get 90 MMD Princess shipped to you for like $17 USD. And these switches would have cost about .65 cents each, based on quality, just a few years ago.

There was a huge sale on AliExpress where many of the switches I just mentioned were on sale. It just ended, but some of them are still on sale. I can point you to the MMD Princess if you want.

There's a new Brown switch coming out called "Chazhu." They lied and said things like 'Vintage Browns,' but it looks to be a snappier Brown. Could be what you are looking for. If any samples arrive with me, I will let you know.


BTW, if you actually liked typing on Clears, but they were too heavy, you could take MX Clears and put in some mid-weight progressive springs. Like 72 G or so. It would be lighter than factory Clears, but still simulate their force curve to an extent. Works well with 3204. You can also use a powerful mid-weight spring that actuates at 60 G and bottoms out around 65, although that might be a bit poppy.

[HungerMechanic]

I should also mention:

Gateron Baby Kangaroo [it's snappy but not excessive, definitely larger than a Brown.]
Durock Light Tactile [larger bump than a Brown, comes in luxury "Pewter" and "Cotton-Candy" variants.]

MODE Tomorrow [a mild medium tactile that is very sturdy, decent factory-lube]
TTC Bluish White [a snappy medium-tactile that has maybe a more boxy-shaped tactile leg, more authoritative.]
SP Star Polaris Purple [the 65-67 G SP Star medium-tactiles have been called "better Ergo Clears" by some of the veteran folks around here.]

AKKO POM Browns [these are really smooth Browns with a somewhat more-defined tactile bump]
AKKO Cream Blue V3 Pro [medium-tactiles like a small Holy Panda, but they are decently-lubed from factory + cheap]
KTT Mallo [these are Browns but the bump is well-defined, and you can use a higher spring weight like 68 G.]

[HungerMechanic]

BTW,

I just went to my testing board.

Since you are saying that MX Blues are not enough bump for you, I would try the larger-bump tactiles.

Probably a good starting point is the T1. The JWICK T1 V2 are so cheap, you could buy 10 for like nothing, or like 90 for $20 during a sale. Even in stock form, they are pretty good. And will give you an idea of where to go from there.

And still experiment with the Ergo Clears. What to do is buy a "sample pack" of TX springs. So you'll get like 2 60 G, 2 63.5 G, 2 65 G, and so on. Open up some MX Clears and put the springs in. [Works better with 3204 + spring-lube.]

You'll get an idea of which weights work for you. There are cheap and powerful Chinese springs that often work well with Ergo Clears as well. The point is, you can figure out a good weight fairly easily.

So just starting with those 2 options will tell you a lot.

[You can also pick up some 60 G MMD Princess and some Huano Banana samples for pretty cheap.]

There are other snappy tactiles, but these are cheap and effective.

[HungerMechanic]

I just cannot help myself.

I noticed that the Blueberry Chiffon V1 is on clearance sale:


https://invokeys.com/products/invokeys-blueberry-chiffon-switches-clearance?variant=42628264722590

These are 'big Browns.' Basically, an MX Brown with a larger bump, placed closer to the top. Long-pole, so they are clacky.

The V1 had a problem with ringing tactile leafs, so switches 'ring' intermittently. This is to your benefit, because now you can try out the switch for like 75% off.

The lubed will be more educational, as they will sound (mostly) like they are supposed to.

If you choose V2 lubed B-stock, it's like $3.30 for 10. So this is the cheapest ever chance to try these, if you like.



EDIT:

If you are in the United States, get a Cannonkeys tactile switch sampler:

https://cannonkeys.com/products/switch-sample-packs?variant=40804134748271

It has many of the switch types I've already mentioned, including T1 + [Lilac], Naevy 2.0, Baby Kangaroo, Cerulean [DMT], Bluish White, and of course the MX Clear.

[loki993]

Thank you!, That's a lot to unpack, Im going to take some time and read through. I did grab a set of the Blueberry Chiffons to see just because they were so cheap


Any recommendations on a quality barebones that I can switch test in? Would be awesome if it was inexpensive and well but I know those two terms generally dont collide in the same context often.
Dont care/need/want any backlighting or RGB. Dont care/need/want wireless if that helps.

[HungerMechanic]

You are in luck!

There are a lot of "quality barebones" these days.

The smallest [and cheapest] is the Tester68. They are all over AliExpress: unfortunately, the sale ended. So they are about $30 USD + shipping instead of $25 USD.

If you are in the United States, there is an outfit called KeebMonkey that is basically a dropshipper for China. You can find the Tester68 there, too:

https://www.keebmonkey.com/products/kbm68pro-kbm84pro-kbm100pro

It is also sometimes known as the KBM68 and TES68. One barebones variant is on sale for $25:

https://www.keebmonkey.com/products/keebmonkey-x-ambit-kb68-budget-keyboard-kit?_pos=2&_sid=be199e752&_ss=r

Or even $20:

https://www.keebmonkey.com/products/kbm68-transparent-2-4g-wireless-keyboard-kit?_pos=4&_sid=be199e752&_ss=r

Unfortunately, Tester68 and derivatives are wireless-only. They need AA or AAA batteries or something. But this hasn't proven detrimental in-service to me. The wireless is reliable, it can even control a TV Android box with its dongle, and the battery lasts for a long time and can be shut down.


If you want to go up a little in price and size, there is the MK870 TKL on AliExpress. It is normally about $60 USD. However, it goes down to $40 during sales.

I understand you can get this gasket TKL starting at $54.99:

https://mechkeys.com/collections/87-keys/products/aula-f87-mechanical-keyboard?variant=44207466545375


I have both the Tester68 and MK870. Mine have been rock-solid, so far. They should be perfect for testing. Personally, I believe the Tester68 is fine for testing tactiles. Mine is built with Durock Medium Tactiles [Mode Signals filmed with TX films, and lubed with 3203.]

So, yeah. Either of those two would be adequate. If you need keycaps, a full set of beige + cream Shenpo PBT keycaps are like $42 CAD on AliExpress, or $38 during sales. Or maybe there is something at Cannonkeys that you could order with the tactiles sample pack.

If you want serious all-in-one quality, the Keychron V7 is highly-regarded for an entry-level keyboard. You can buy it barebones at $64, ready for hotswap switches, or get the 80-something dollar version with Gateron Brown or Yellow-like switches and usable keycaps.

https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-v7-qmk-custom-mechanical-keyboard

It's more than you need for testing, but the plus is you can get it with keycaps. There are similar deals on Chinese websites [all-inclusive keyboard], but Keychron is a known brand.



You did well picking up those Blueberry Chiffons. Mine were only 25% discounted when I bought them. You'll get an idea of the force curve of the stem and spring. They are 'long-pole.' You'll find out what that means soon. Good contrast with MX Clear and T1.

Blueberry Chiffons were marketed as "better Browns" [this is a common theme]. But I think they are more like medium-tactiles than light-tactiles. Even if they are on the light end of that.

Ergo Clears are deceptive, because those plain little switches open up a new world. The changes you get from different lubes + patterns, plus spring weights, are noticeable.

[HungerMechanic]

PS

Nice little clearance sale at 21KB:

https://21kb.com/collections/sale


The Irish / Chinese [blue-pink] / Wubi sets look like good deals.


Also, the Artifact Bloom sets are adequate, and have some selection:

https://drop.com/buy/artifact-bloom-series-keycap-set-futures

Normally $45, but I have seen them go down to $39 during sales.


MT3 Skiidata is only $39! Will cover a TKL or Tester68 easily. Big, expensive keycaps. This is the lowest price it can go.*

https://drop.com/buy/drop-mt3-skiidata-keycap-set?searchId=f23e221227926a9b5ad96bd27fddefb2&defaultSelectionIds=968812



At $66 USD, this Keychron K-series is a steal.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09MQ465GJ/ref=ewc_pr_img_1?smid=A2HZ6DMACCHCOH&th=1

It's dual-mode wireless and wired. Has south-facing LEDs, which is ideal for testing. Beyond the Tester68 and MK870 in quality. Doesn't come with keycaps, though. This keyboard is more than is needed.




*The Dasher and Dancer sets are also at $39 from the same vendor.

They may represent better value, as they include the numpad as well.

However, MT3 is an unusual profile. The surfaces are spherical, rather than cylindrical. It is unlike the more common Cherry and OEM profiles, in that respect. The keycaps are thick, and sound good, but because of that are somewhat misleading if testing for switches that will mainly be used with Cherry-profile.

[HungerMechanic]

BTW a white KBM68 with MT3 Dancer would look kinda like this:

[Rhienfo]

PS

Nice little clearance sale at 21KB:

https://21kb.com/collections/sale


The Irish / Chinese [blue-pink] / Wubi sets look like good deals.

For 21kb, you should only buy when these sales come across, these keycaps are definitely not worth $60, and you can get similar quality caps (Shenpo, JC Studio for much cheaper). 35 is a price I would be willing to pay so only go for the clearance sets at that price (only get the $39 one if that's your favourite out of the other $35 caps)

In terms of quality bare-bones, keychron are pretty good for testing, the K8 barebones is 89 (on their website I have seen the bare-bones kit for less, but for 10usd more you get swtiches and caps if you want a better deal. They come with prelubed stabs so you don't have to bother with that as much. Of course you can get more value oriented stuff if you want to as well.

[HungerMechanic]

I was just thinking about that.

I've never tried 21kb before. But my understanding is that the legending is a bit more consistent than Shenpo.

That's not worth much price premium over basic Shenpo, which is $29-31 on AliExpress.

So $35 USD actually seems like a decent price for a legended 21kb set. But never $50 or more. [I'm tempted to try it out.]


For Keychron, I agree they should be good for testing. I mentioned the K2. The K2 is basically a K1 with extra features, and it's available at $66:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09MQ465GJ/ref=ewc_pr_img_1?smid=A2HZ6DMACCHCOH&th=1

In my view, that beats out the Keychron K8 for $89, although that is because a sale is on.


There is also the WK68, which is like a fully-kitted out Tester68. People rate it highly, and seem to think it is a good deal. But that is only if you don't know about the other options I mentioned.

I guess it is okay if you need both keycaps and switches with it.

[ArchDill]

I've had a Leopold FC750R with Cherry Red switches for the past 7 years as my main keyboard.

At that time it was basically Cherry then everyone else. Gaetron and Kailh were just coming on and were not as good as the cherrys. Seems that opinion has changed, also there are TON more options out there now.

I got the Reds because I game but I've never typed well with them.

Silvers are intriguing, but Im not sure if they type better or worse than the reds.

I've run Blues, Browns they were ok but definitely not enough of a bump and I use a Keycool with clears for my work keyboard, which are nice but get fatiguing after a while. I cant swap the springs because the keycool has a plate.

Not sure if I want to stick with linear or go tactile, I would say at this point I'm 60 40 gaming vs typing.

What's good out there now or do I just stick with Cherrys?

For gaming, I like lubed Vin Blacks or Tealios. For work and typing I like 55g lubed topre. On my linear, I usually run 62-67g but I run a heavier spring on my spacebar and put a silent linear on it.

[HungerMechanic]

Those are good solutions, Archdill. I would use New Nixies in place on Vint Blacks, since the new Black are easier to obtain.

One thing that the OP should know is, back before most of these custom switches, people coming from MX Clears would often just adopt the Zealio V1 (and sometimes V2) with 78 G springs. Sometimes, the Zealios came with those springs. Otherwise, you would have to buy Spirit linear (or progressive, like these):

https://rndkbd.com/products/sprit-mx-progressive-springs?variant=40610831073432

People liked the 78 G springs, because a Zealio with 78 G is heavier than a Brown, but still lighter than using an MX Clear.

[Rhienfo]

I was just thinking about that.

I've never tried 21kb before. But my understanding is that the legending is a bit more consistent than Shenpo.

That's not worth much price premium over basic Shenpo, which is $29-31 on AliExpress.

So $35 USD actually seems like a decent price for a legended 21kb set. But never $50 or more. [I'm tempted to try it out.]

The thing is that 21kb used to be a lot cheaper (I think they were under 30 I don't remember the exact price) but they upped their price so much they had to walk back on some of the price to 60 (I think they tried to sell at 80 at one point which is insane and not worth that at all) and I agree that the $35 ones are fine, just don't buy 21kb caps at full price.

[RominRonin]

You should consider ergo clears: they are in Cherry’s standard line now: they have the firm bump off clears but with a lighter spring so they are not as fatiguing


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rhienfo]

You should consider ergo clears: they are in Cherry’s standard line now: they have the firm bump off clears but with a lighter spring so they are not as fatiguing


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ergo clears are nice, but I feel that a lighter spring makes them feel better, the ones that cherry sell are mx blacks springs instead of the usual brown or blue springs that are used (like 60g springs) that were seen when we say ergo clears. If you do get them, I would recommend to spring swap them with like tx springs or anything like that because cherry springs aren't very good, so find the cheapest options of clears (whether standard clears or the new "ergo clears") replace the springs and lube them with a less thick lube for the best typing experience with the clears.

The reason why some people recommend ergo clear like switches is because cherry clear stems have the ability to warp and damage keycaps due to the larger stem size to a mx brown as an example. So if you do get them, just know the risk there.

[HungerMechanic]

I think the OP should strongly consider Cannonkeys' sample pack, since it contains several switches in the Ergo Clear range. [Perhaps he could combine it with another product, such as springs, lube, or a switch opener, in order to absorb shipping costs.]

Yes, the stock springs in Cherry's official Ergo Clears are heavier than they should be. Maybe they should only be used for large modifiers [Shift] and spacebars at most.

The classic custom weight was 62 G Korean springs [so about 15mm Spirit], although personally I think 63.5 G is richer and more subtle. 65 G 14mm TX is also great, a little on the heavier side though.

To get actual "lighter MX Clears," with a progressive-ish spring [different from Ergo Clears], people put 72-78 G Progressive springs and such into MX Clears and Zealio V1.* Or just 78 G linear.


BTW this guy's review of POM Browns is incredibly detailed and accurate:

https://switchbox.studio/akko-pom-browns/

[For the OP, POM Browns are truly a light-tactile, but a slightly larger bump than MX Browns.]


Not only is it worth reading in its entirety, but the comparisons to other switches are valid, and provide details about those too.


Plus there's a great review of the Ajazz Kiwi tactile:

https://switchbox.studio/ajazz-diced-fruit-kiwi/


and he even talks about BOX switches:

https://switchbox.studio/box-vs-box-vs-box/





*Zealio V1 is 25% off right now:



https://zealpc.net/collections/zealio_v1_redux?variant=39352365449280

[HungerMechanic]

Very good, on-topic post:


https://www.keebtalk.com/t/cherry-ergo-clears-your-user-feedback/18737/15

Alphadecay

I got some Cherry Clears in from Cannonkeys this past week and I wanted to share some initial non-typing impressions comparing the bump profile in hand and the smoothness.

My favorite switch that I use in my main keyboard has been Durock Medium Tactiles for quite a while now, which are modeled on Cherry Clears. The DMTs I’m using have a very light coat of 3204 on rails and stems with TX XL (18mm) 60g springs and Deskey films. I’m lubing my Clears with a slightly heavier coat of 3204 on rails only as I aim for as much of a “frictionless” feel, and the prior DMTs ended up feeling a little sluggish with rail+stem lube.

I would rank the smoothness of these Clears compared to the DMTs as follows: Unlubed Clear<Lubed Clear<= Factory lubed DMT < Lubed DMT. The DMTs get really close to the frictionless feel that I desire, whereas the Clears are definitely smooth post lube but you do still hear some scratch. Its not the egregious scratch that one would expect based on older pretool molds, but there’s some definite texture to the push feel. I expect that this is mostly unnoticeable when typing at speed though, and some light break-in should close the gap to the DMTs.

I find the Clears to have more pre-travel and a smaller but sharper feeling tactile bump. Looking at the stems corroborates this for me as the DMTs have a slightly more rounded bump in the tactile leg. However, the Clears are consistently lighter in terms of peak tactility - when testing by pressing two switches together with the same spring and lube combination, the Clears have consistently actuated first. The impressions of the rounder bump lines up with Pylons’ testing of the two and his force graphs 1. I would have to disagree with @Deadeye’s impressions earlier here on the Clears having the more “assertive” bump, but this is most likely because the Dragonfruits have really loose tops/housings while the Durock Medium Tactiles are quite tight housings with low amounts of stem wobble.

I have to finish lubing these and use Geon’s stem trimmer to reduce the size of the stems, but so far I like what I have. If Durock Medium Tactiles didn’t exist then I would be using Clears in most of my builds for sure. However, based on my preferences in switch smoothness and the slightly rounder bump profile of the DMTs, I prefer those even at the standard price of $0.55 USD per switch from standard vendors. Right now I can get them from the official Durock Aliexpress storefront for $0.40 USD per switch which is a really competitive price compared to the $0.38 USD of standard Cherry Clears.

These are going to go into my Keychron Q5 I use for work so I’ll be able to use both long term and update with more typing impressions when they’re ready.

[Rhienfo]

I think the OP should strongly consider Cannonkeys' sample pack, since it contains several switches in the Ergo Clear range. [Perhaps he could combine it with another product, such as springs, lube, or a switch opener, in order to absorb shipping costs.]

Switch sample packs are probably the second best way to try out switches (The best is trying them out in person or at meetups) and would also recommended as well, if no-one in your area has them.

I have to finish lubing these and use Geon’s stem trimmer to reduce the size of the stems

Honestly it is a nice read but had no idea that those stem trimmers existed, obviously cherry should fixed the issue that people have known about it for years, but at least the stem issue can be fixed which is good.

[atarione]

I've had a Leopold FC750R with Cherry Red switches for the past 7 years as my main keyboard.

At that time it was basically Cherry then everyone else. Gaetron and Kailh were just coming on and were not as good as the cherrys. Seems that opinion has changed, also there are TON more options out there now.

I got the Reds because I game but I've never typed well with them.

Silvers are intriguing, but Im not sure if they type better or worse than the reds.

I've run Blues, Browns they were ok but definitely not enough of a bump and I use a Keycool with clears for my work keyboard, which are nice but get fatiguing after a while. I cant swap the springs because the keycool has a plate.

Not sure if I want to stick with linear or go tactile, I would say at this point I'm 60 40 gaming vs typing.

What's good out there now or do I just stick with Cherrys?

I am rocking a Filco MT2 TKL w/ mx-reds that is basically 8~yrs old now.... I have read and look and tried a few new things..... I am happy with my Filco I personally find it quite nice to type / game on... I have basically zero desire to do anything different for now...

[evidentLEE]

I've had a Leopold FC750R with Cherry Red switches for the past 7 years as my main keyboard.

At that time it was basically Cherry then everyone else. Gaetron and Kailh were just coming on and were not as good as the cherrys. Seems that opinion has changed, also there are TON more options out there now.

I got the Reds because I game but I've never typed well with them.

Silvers are intriguing, but Im not sure if they type better or worse than the reds.

I've run Blues, Browns they were ok but definitely not enough of a bump and I use a Keycool with clears for my work keyboard, which are nice but get fatiguing after a while. I cant swap the springs because the keycool has a plate.

Not sure if I want to stick with linear or go tactile, I would say at this point I'm 60 40 gaming vs typing.

What's good out there now or do I just stick with Cherrys?

I would definitely pick up a switch tester/sample pack. There are a ton of different possibilities and some great innovations that have happened in the keyboard industry over the past few years. I'm a big fan of Gateron switches, this is a pretty good sample pack and switch tester offered by them.
https://gateron.com/products/gateron-switch-tester-with-sample-set-1
Hippokeys also has a great selection of switch samplers.
https://hippokeys.com/collections/frontpage

[HungerMechanic]

I wonder if the OP ever started testing custom switches. Did I scare him off?

[loki993]

I wonder if the OP ever started testing custom switches. Did I scare him off?

You did not it just took me a bit to decided what keyboards I wanted. I missed all the sales and I waffled over a few higher end options, Monsgeek M3, Scarlet TKL, MCK75 I saw on here, which I think I like the most of those three. I decided that I didn't really want to spend all of that right now and also I kinda prefer plastic keyboards I think. I do think I may still order a MCL75 at some point but we will see.

Also I was messing around on Reddit a bit but reedit sucks, they only seem to be interested in picture of keyboards over there and not actually talking about them. Any questions get put in a daily question thread and if you are lucky you may get one good maybe terrible answer before you get buried in a sea of other questions never to be seen or heard form again. Ive asked three question over there in the past 3 says and got zero response, but you know god forbit people clutter up your pictures with a question or discussion. Rant off about reddit now because I could go on and on about this and you don't want to read that.

There seems to be so many more options out there then when I started with all of this, I don't know 9 years ago. Custom keyboards were 4 or 500 dollars, you had to solder all the switches to the PCB or pay extra for someone to do it for you.

There wasn't really hot swap, I think the sockets were out there but no on was really using them because there wasn't really that many switch options.

Now you can get a board for 150 to 200 bucks that you basically just screw together and your done. What a time to be alive lol.

The amount of different switches from then until now is just straight up overwhelming, there are so many and there are a lot of good ones it seems and many different price points.

As for keys right now Im just using the Bleuberry Chiffions, I like them so far but Im still in the testing phase so to speak. They definitely have a bigger bump than my old browns or even the Clears in my Keycool which has some mileage on it and I like it.

Yeah I hear the ping but I don't really care about it, the sound of my keyboards have never really been a priority to me and 90 percent of the time I'm using it I'm wearing headphones anyway so its even less important. Its either loud or quiet, this one is kinda loud, especially with the chiffons in it. I would probably prefer quiet but not enough to really do anything about it, at least right now. A loud keyboard will annoy me way sooner than any particular sound a switch or plate makes though.

The keyboard I got ended up being a Keychron V3, it was on sale at amazon. I got the complete one to get the keycaps which are PBT doubleshots, relatively nice....meh. I don't like the keycaps on it, the profile is strange, I cant type on them and they're pretty thin but what do you expect for the price I suppose. For the money not terrible if someone didn't have any other caps and being PBT and doubleshot they should last basically forever. The Leopold I'm coming from has some sort of Cherry profile caps on it and I think I'm just used to the lower profile caps. I tried the Leo caps on it and they were almost too low in the Keychron. I currently have a set of caps in it from an old Poker II and I always liked those caps, they feel great. They are a bit taller, sort of like OEM profile and just seem to work better in the Keychron.

The Keychron though just isn't working for me. I just cant get used to it and I don't really know why. The angle seems similar to the Leo, I got the cap height on it close but still I don't feel like I type great on it. So I think Im going to send it back to Amazon while Im still in the return window. The main thing I do not like though, is the bottom part of the V3 case is thick and I tend to hit my thumbs on the edge a lot when Im typing and it doesn't feel great, in fact it really bothers me and I think I need something with a thinner bottom portion of the case. For example, the Leo and the keycool I use for work is about half the width and the edge of the keycools case is rounded so I don't feel it really at all because if that.

Also I don't think I like keyboards with the floating keys or no case options, I don't know what its called, Kinda like the GMMKs

Leo


Leo and Keychron with bastardized caps on it....I seem to have lost the J key from my Poker Set, its probably in a box around here somewhere.


I took a pic of the Keycool too but the keys are super dirty right now and need to be cleaned so Im not showing anyone that.


So few things or a TL;DR

I need a keyboard with a thin bottom portion of the case so my thumbs don't hit it as much, rounded would be an extra bonus.

Does a south facing PBC make that big of a difference? The key profiles I seem to prefer and type the best on, with my limited experience granted, is the cherry-ish sort of profile the Leopold has and from what I read they interfere with north facing boards.

I kinda want to try XDA so I may give that a try but I think I will likely gravitate back towards something in the cherry profile as that's what I am most used to typing on.

Also I'm cheap so expensive keycaps don't really interest me.  Any of those 100+ dollar caps from Drop, SA or wherever else aren't going to happen.


Not sure what other switches I want to try right now. Maybe UT4s? Something really tactile to see the difference.

Here is my issue though, I cant seem to find reasonable reviews on switches, or keyboards for that matter really, and there are so many options out there its a bit overwhelming.

I've watched so many switch reviews that talk about the sound and how "thocky" a switch or keyboard is <---I hate that word at this point by the way, but nothing on how they feel to type on, how heavy or not they are how big id the bump etc all of the you know all of the actual relevant information on why you would or would not want to use a switch. I get this switch is so smooth and thocky them 3 minutes of a sound test. Shoot me now. So this is my current impass.

I dont know Ill stop taking now that was sort of a long thing.

[Rhienfo]

Also I was messing around on Reddit a bit but reedit sucks, they only seem to be interested in picture of keyboards over there and not actually talking about them.

Yeah I've never asked reddit for help on anything, geekhack is far better place for this, plus I feel there are more experienced people on gh so they will know what they are talking about far more likely than someone on reddit.

There seems to be so many more options out there then when I started with all of this, I don't know 9 years ago. Custom keyboards were 4 or 500 dollars, you had to solder all the switches to the PCB or pay extra for someone to do it for you.

Custom keyboards still are that price (and can be a lot more lol) and for those boards soldering should be the norm for them, cause for those boards hotswap isn't very good. It's just that more budget friendly customs have come onto the market and hotswap is a better fit for them because newer people are more likely to have them, still prefer solder for all my builds though.

Does a south facing PBC make that big of a difference? The key profiles I seem to prefer and type the best on, with my limited experience granted, is the cherry-ish sort of profile the Leopold has and from what I read they interfere with north facing boards.

Yeah for cherry profile keycaps such as gmk north facing pcbs can create interference in the r3 section of the caps (where asd are) which is not pleasant, so south facing switches just fix those issues. Keep in mind that this varies by a variety of factors, for example I had a batch of nk creams on gmk that didn't have this issue, but a tangerines did. Also some switch brands have change their moulds to fix this issues, but just to not have to deal with the problem, south facing is better unless you want more powerful rgb.

Also I'm cheap so expensive keycaps don't really interest me.  Any of those 100+ dollar caps from Drop, SA or wherever else aren't going to happen.

JC studio is nice for the price, there are under $40, but if you know how to use taobao you can get them for much cheaper.

Plus drop sometimes has clearance deals so look out for those, you can get some of their high end caps for $50 which is pretty good.

XDA is quite cheap so if you are trying them out then it should be pretty good.
[/quote]

Not sure what other switches I want to try right now. Maybe UT4s? Something really tactile to see the difference.

heard varying things about boba u4ts, that they are bad to some of the best mx tactiles. I'm not really much of a tactile guy at least for mx, but even due to how hard I type I can barely feel them anyway (something like 55g realforce fits me a lot better)

I would buy a sample pack to try them out.

Here is my issue though, I cant seem to find reasonable reviews on switches, or keyboards for that matter really, and there are so many options out there its a bit overwhelming. .

Blacksimon does great keyboard reviews but they are more about high end customs but sometimes he does budget stuff (like the cycle 7 which seemed insane for the price)

Theremingoat does decent reviews on switches, While I can appreciate his opinion, I'm not the biggest fan of the "objectivity" of the reviews, just too much variance between switches for me to actually use that data to justify a purchase, Plus there really aren't too many factors that determine a switches quality (smoothness, tactile bump, weighting even though I spring swap to consistent springs anyway, sound I guess...) but that's just me, you could find use out of his reviews, I do just for his thoughts on them, rather than the data. Plus modding switches is so commonplace that something like how smooth a linear is kinda pointless when you can break in and lube switches.

Hopefully you got something out of this, even if I couldn't answer everything enjoyed reading your perspective.

[loki993]

I've always found the forums better than Reddit. Reddit can and often does turn into a giant circlejerk eco chamber but there are a ton of people on reddit, some are knowledgeable you just gotta filter a lot of junk to find them. Most of the time too much junk.

Yeah I saw the cycle7 but by the time I knew of it they were long gone.

I think a lot of this hobby is subjective honestly. It's all about feel and sound and even aesthetic. Someone could love a switch and I could hate it. Same with a keyboard. I think ultimately people just have to eventually stop listening to other people and try stuff to find out what they really like.

[stonewater]

I've personally been on the search for my favorite linear switch since going down the rabbit hole a little under a year ago.

For my preference (linear low-end sound profile [no plastic top-out and no crunch] with long pole clack, short travel, little-to-no-wobble, smooth stock, ~55g weight), BSUN raw linears are the best around.

I've tested nearly 200 linear switches and those BSUNs are still the GOAT.

Other ones I love:

Owlab London Fogs (as long as the lube doesn't leak into the stem cap)
Kiiboom Topaz
Aflion Tropical Waters
Aflion Blue Sky Linears
KFA N20 (Laughing Gas) (best heavy switch ~65g weight)
DangKeebs Blueberry Swirl (best light switch)

Those are the only true "S" Tier switches to me.

For Tactiles, it was initially Boba U4ts taking the cake, but KTT Waveriders are the perfect mix of not ultra-high tactility, good weight, low sound, and smooth push.

Akko also makes some excellent budget options:

- Akko Cream Yellows
- Akko Cream Blues
- Akko CS Pianos

Coming into this hobby without the bias of switches that have existed for years has helped a lot. I constantly hear people reference older switches that are simply nothing close to the ones mentioned above and I think it's because it's so dang hard to try all the new switches that come out regularly.

But yeah, every person I've talked to who has tried those S tier switches hasn't had a bad thing to say. I'd try them out.

[Rhienfo]

Coming into this hobby without the bias of switches that have existed for years has helped a lot. I constantly hear people reference older switches that are simply nothing close to the ones mentioned above and I think it's because it's so dang hard to try all the new switches that come out regularly.

But yeah, every person I've talked to who has tried those S tier switches hasn't had a bad thing to say. I'd try them out.

I didn't have that bias for switches as well and stuff like cherry and gateron are still really good, there not that good stock (which no switch is tbh) but they are very nice when you mod then (break them in, lube them carefully, spring swap to consistent springs, film when needed), especially cherry because the plastics were in quickly and makes a large difference in the smoothness.

While I do think there has been innovation (haimu with silents as an example) in the switch game, I think that linears are largely the same and once modded the only thing that changes are weighting, which if you change the spring (which I highly recommend you do) it's only minute differences.

[HungerMechanic]

I wonder if the OP ever started testing custom switches. Did I scare him off?

You did not it just took me a bit to decided what keyboards I wanted. I missed all the sales and I waffled over a few higher end options, Monsgeek M3, Scarlet TKL, MCK75 I saw on here, which I think I like the most of those three. I decided that I didn't really want to spend all of that right now and also I kinda prefer plastic keyboards I think. I do think I may still order a MCL75 at some point but we will see.


Not sure what other switches I want to try right now. Maybe UT4s? Something really tactile to see the difference.

Here is my issue though, I cant seem to find reasonable reviews on switches, or keyboards for that matter really, and there are so many options out there its a bit overwhelming.

I've watched so many switch reviews that talk about the sound and how "thocky" a switch or keyboard is <---I hate that word at this point by the way, but nothing on how they feel to type on, how heavy or not they are how big id the bump etc all of the you know all of the actual relevant information on why you would or would not want to use a switch. I get this switch is so smooth and thocky them 3 minutes of a sound test. Shoot me now. So this is my current impass.

I dont know Ill stop taking now that was sort of a long thing.

It looks like you've been doing your due diligence!

I'm glad you like the Blueberry Chiffons. I have an NCR-80 full of them, and it works fine (except for the occasional squeak). They really are larger than Browns and maybe even Clears, though, so it's amusing that they are marketed as a 'better Brown' "light-tactile."

I have disassembled some recently to try them in OUTEMU housings. And the stems on Blueberry Chiffons are actually huge! They are the wide boxy stems and have long-poles, of course. It really is a good example of a long-pole light/medium tactile, as it gives somewhat different characteristics than a regular stem.*

I agree that metal is not necessarily the best material for a keyboard. One of my best ones is a steel-framed keyboard, but in general plastic is a better material. It has better acoustics, durability, ease-of-maintenance, and is cheaper. What's not to like? Seriously, though, most of the "classic" keyboards used plastic heavily. It is ironically the correct "retro" material, and can really enhance sound if used correctly.

[Aluminium and Carbon-Fibre are really the crazy ultra-modern materials here for keyboards, as well as the even more esoteric acrylic and printed-materials.]


Interesting situation you presented with the Keychron vs. Leopold. The Leopold actually has what are even today considered premium keycaps, being thick PBT double-shots. They are almost Cherry-profile. (I think they are some weird proprietary variant like SS2 or something, but they are very close to Cherry.)

The Leopold keyboards are well-designed and well-engineered to start with, so even something like a lower-end Keychron V-series will have difficulty competing with them. The true strength of the Keychron there is its customizability.

The 'floating' keyboards like the GMMK you mention were a fad for a while, like 2016-2019, probably influenced by 'gaming' keyboards. No, they don't have any depth for keycaps to sit in, and the open space may invite dirt.

If the Keychron isn't doing it for you, you may wish to return it while you can. Keyboard angles and bezels are something you can't really control, and if you don't like it, you don't like it. There are plenty of options to choose from these days.


South-facing PCBs are better for you. If you like Cherry-profile keycaps, you might notice the interference caused by north-facing PCBs.

If major manufacturers like Ducky or Varmilo are releasing hotswap keyboards, you might want to get one of those. Sometimes they release something like that. Those keyboards would be 'normally-proportioned' and relatively standard. Varmilo uses south-facing lighting, at least last time I checked.

A custom keyboard you may wish to consider is the IKKI68 Aurora. It is relatively easy to assemble, and you can purchase a hotswap version that doesn't require soldering, I think. There is another GB for it now. It's basically a cut-down TKL, even though you may prefer larger. It just needs a keycap set with support for 68% - 70% layout.

I get you on not wanting to buy expensive keycaps. There are some cheap copies of "Pyga" semi-transparent keycaps on AliExpress that cost like $30 CAD, shipped. With support for some alternative layouts. The AF SA high-profile go for about $52 CAD during sales, and the AKKO ASA profile are similar in price.

There's a new profile called CX SA, a lower SA-profile that may go for as little as $20 USD before shipping. And the Maxxkey SA isn't that expensive either.

For more Cherry-profile, you can get JC Studio on AliExpress for $47 CAD shipped. That's a TKL set of beige + cream plus some design. And Shenpo PBT may go as low as $39. They're all fine for custom keyboards and regular ones too.

There's no reason to spend a lot of money on keycaps anymore, if you don't want to.


(Also, you can try XDA and stuff but will probably just go back to Cherry. Your gut is telling you the truth. Deviating from Cherry-profile will cost you money in the long-run. I bought a cheap XDAA clone set called "Matcha," I think it was MDA profile or something.

It was beautifully-made and had a nice surface-texture, but I just don't type on that profile. I could get used to it, but would prefer to stick with low-profile cylindricals.)


As for switches, the keyboard world has been moving too fast in the past 5 + years for anyone to successfully catalog all of them. You can look up Theremingoat's reviews, he is the most prolific. And as I may have said earlier, Switchbox Studio's reviews of switches like POM Browns will also tell you about other tactiles.


Here is Theremingoat:

https://www.theremingoat.com/


Here is Switchbox Studio:

https://switchbox.studio/akko-pom-browns/



But yeah, it's a lot of searching to find out about switches, so forget that. It's probably faster and better to just check out some 'archetypes' of common switches, since there aren't that many core designs.

For heavy-tactiles, the archetype is "Holy Panda," of which there are many variants. U4T is kind of like Holy Panda, but uses the more stable Boba housing. So yeah, just buy some U4T to check them out.

Maybe go here and pick out some switches:

https://switchoddities.com/

I have done something like this twice, and it really helps. It's much cheaper to order a few individual switches.

Some popular / interesting tactiles other than U4T: Gateron Root Beer Float, Gateron Kangaroo, JWICK T1 V2, AKKO Cream Blue Pro V3.

You know, it's really about what you want at this point, since there are so many to choose from.

JWICK T1 V2 are so cheap during AliExpress sales that you could pick up 10-30 for pocket change, along with 30 - 90 MMD Princess for pocket change. The AKKOs get cheap during sales too.**

In terms of light-tactiles, I'm surprised to say that Gateron G Pro Brown V3 are finally decent. They were on sale for $10 CAD / 30 or $20 CAD for 90, which is hilariously cheap. They are actually usable out-of-box, no lubing or anything required.

And Gateron CAP switches are interesting, as they aren't Cherry designs. Look for the CAP Milky Brown V2 or 3. They are light, factory Ergo Clears. Go cheaper during AliExpress sales.

So AliExpress gives you a lot to try from what I just listed from T1s down to those CAP Browns.

But you seem like a more sophisticated typist, and they don't offer everything. I think the switches you should focus on from places like Switch Oddities are: Gateron Root Beer Float and Kangaroo / Baby Kangaroo, Zealio V2 (if you're just buying one), Gateron Holy Panda X or any Holy Panda, Durock Light Tactile, Durock Medium Tactile, Durock / JWK Smoky T1, Neapolitan (said to be very tactile), a Zeal Clickiez switch set to tactile, and especially the TTC Bluish White or Silent Bluish White. Which is a medium-tactile, but a bit different.

A tactile I find enjoyable is the JWICK and Chosfox Voyager, which resembles somewhat a "Holy Boba." They are like .70 cents a switch on AliExpress, but go a bit lower during sales. BTW if you can try a real Holy Boba, do so. They are a Holy Panda [Halo] stem in a Boba housing.

Also, when ordering from Switch Oddities and the like, make sure to order some SP Star tactiles like Polaris Purple or Nana, and SP Star Magic Girl. Cheap enough, if you are ordering one switch. The so-called "Lilac tactile" is also nice, whomever makes it. So try to order all those 'oddities' at once somewhere.

BTW the big Gateron switch testers you can order from AliExpress aren't too bad. You get to try Zealio V1, V2, CAP Browns, normal Browns, a bunch of linears. But Switch Oddities lets you choose exactly what you want.

So that sounds like a lot, but it's really about ordering like 10 switches from Switch Oddities.


The keyboard and switch reviews on Youtube are questionable, since you won't be able to reproduce that sound exactly. And they are not necessarily looking for the same sound as you are.

Reddit is mostly about pictures, but I find that there's a couple of forums where the discussion is a bit more involved:

https://www.reddit.com/r/BudgetKeebs/

Try the above place. You could post a relevant photo of what you are working on and ask a question. It's more about building and saving money than other places.

(Make sure to read the rules first, as I don't know what they are.)

KeebTalk is also a discussion-focused place for keyboard customization.




*In general, long-pole switches are louder because the pole strikes the housing. So it's probably best to avoid them in the future if you are looking for lower noise.

**There's a new cheap tactile called Molly, manufactured by JWICK, that's worth trying. It's probably a Durock Light or Medium tactile or something, but it can be ordered from affordable China-based retailers. It's pre-lubed and such so you don't have to do anything.

[HungerMechanic]

Couple of smaller points re: the discussion


1. JC Studio can be like $20 USD before shipping on Taobao, but Taobao may be harder to access for non-Chinese speakers. On AliExpress, $34 USD (inc'l shipping) during sales isn't much more than TaoBao prices.

2. ZDA profile is an even-cheaper XDA-like:



3. Boba U4T is a medium-heavy tactile.

It takes the somewhat Panda-like stem of the U4 Boba, but makes it loud instead of quiet. [It's long-pole instead of silenced.]

OP would actually be well-advised to try U4 (silent) Boba, as it is a fairly tactile switch that is also quiet. It's even good in stock form.

62 G is a good weight for stock U4. So are 55 and 65 G, as well. Not sure how they ship these days.


4. Theremingoat has seen a lot of switches for comparison. His reviews are not known for brevity, but they are detailed.

You might want to note that Theremingoat seems to have his own standards for measuring tactiles. I think he sees switches like T1 are more of a medium-tactile and Durock Medium Tactile as more of a light-medium tactile.

I think T1 is a heavy tactile by old standards, and DMT is a straight-up-medium. He seems to categorize tactiles as slightly lighter than they are supposed to be, as if his personal standard is for heavier tactiles.

The old standard was the Brown-like = light-tactile. Something with an MX Clear-sized bump was a medium-tactile. And something like a Holy Panda was a heavy-tactile.

Theremingoat might see MX Clear as a light-medium, and Holy Panda as a medium-heavy. So I would just keep that in mind.


Also, in terms of cheap tactiles, if you want something harsher rather than rounder, maybe try the new AKKO Lavender Purple Pro:

[Wait for sales, as they sometimes go on sale on the AKKO website and AliExpress simultaneously.]

[HungerMechanic]

This guy created a "tactile palette" on his switch-tester:

Top row - Betty V2, Quinn, T1 clear, Princess (V1 single stage spring)

Middle row - Waverider, Cream Blue V3, Cream Blue V3 Pro, Beer

(The bottom row is linear. But the first two rows sure seem worth checking-out.)


Useful discussion here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/BudgetKeebs/comments/15u7equ/budget_switches_and_some_pricier_options/

[stonewater]

Coming into this hobby without the bias of switches that have existed for years has helped a lot. I constantly hear people reference older switches that are simply nothing close to the ones mentioned above and I think it's because it's so dang hard to try all the new switches that come out regularly.

But yeah, every person I've talked to who has tried those S tier switches hasn't had a bad thing to say. I'd try them out.

I didn't have that bias for switches as well and stuff like cherry and gateron are still really good, there not that good stock (which no switch is tbh) but they are very nice when you mod then (break them in, lube them carefully, spring swap to consistent springs, film when needed), especially cherry because the plastics were in quickly and makes a large difference in the smoothness.

While I do think there has been innovation (haimu with silents as an example) in the switch game, I think that linears are largely the same and once modded the only thing that changes are weighting, which if you change the spring (which I highly recommend you do) it's only minute differences.

Spring swapping, purchasing a break-in machine, hand lubing, filming...

That's the problem I see here. That's a whole lot of investment to find out if you actually like a switch or not. (Sidenote, I have tested some of those with all of those changes and it still doesn't match stock London Fogs or BSUN Raw Linears, IMO.)

This hobby is already time consuming and intimidating when suggesting "build your own keyboard!", which fortunately has gotten easier over the years with hotswap keyboards, improved stock stabs (lightly lubing is easy), and better mounting solutions.

I personally grade switches as stock because the heavy majority don't want to invest in everything mentioned above, myself included.

[Rhienfo]

Spring swapping, purchasing a break-in machine, hand lubing, filming...

That's the problem I see here. That's a whole lot of investment to find out if you actually like a switch or not. (Sidenote, I have tested some of those with all of those changes and it still doesn't match stock London Fogs or BSUN Raw Linears, IMO.)

This hobby is already time consuming and intimidating when suggesting "build your own keyboard!", which fortunately has gotten easier over the years with hotswap keyboards, improved stock stabs (lightly lubing is easy), and better mounting solutions.

I personally grade switches as stock because the heavy majority don't want to invest in everything mentioned above, myself included.

Fair enough, we were actually having a similar talk about this stuff on the snagzkeys. I understand the appeal of stuff like hotswap and prelubed switches but personally I don't see them as fulfilling in a board, and putting work into making a good keyboard is part of the fun of the hobby, tuning stabs, soldering and making the perfect feel and sound while annoying at times is really fulfilling once you have a board you are satisfied with. It's part of the appeal to me as a pretty hardcore enthusiast will all the tinkering and modding. It's why I am planning on modding a filco even though there are far better options out there, because it seems like a fun project.

Short note but I do think that even if a switch is prelubed you should probably swap springs to something like tx anyway, especially because there is a lot of batch variance between springs, which can create a more inconsistent typing feel, especially brands like jwk, cherry and kalih which have terrible spring consistency.

The diy nature of the hobby is why I stay around, and while I do understand why someone would want those easier features if they just want to build a keyboard and not think anything else of it. It is the opposite of why I enjoy the hobby, and would personally want to see the hobby go in a more creative diy section, rather than the trends we have today. Like they diy stuff in japan, more ergo stuff and projects involving non mx stuff like alps/nmb switches etc.

[HungerMechanic]

People have choice now.

If they want something decent/good w/o doing any work, there's Gateron CAP series, G Pro V3, and Oil Kings. There's BOX clickies, pre-lubed custom switches by Aflion and retailers. U4/U4T are fine stock. Even JWICKs are decent for a budget switch.

If they want to do work, they can customize Zealio switches, rebuild SP Star or Durock tactiles with lube and films, use Geon sliders, etc... That way, you can probably make something better than any factory effort.

In addition to the switches I mentioned above, I recommend the OP also order a single unit of Momoka Shark and the Novelkeys Cream Tactile. The Huano / Ajazz Diced Fruit Kiwi is something different. Also, Gateron Baby Kangaroo V2 when they arrive may be worth a look. Plus JWK Midnight [or just put Durock Medium stems in a T1-style housing.]

[Rhienfo]

People have choice now.

Yeah I think that is the most important part, there are tons of great options out there, especially for the price. Stuff like jwicks are like 0.13c on taobao and are so close to the alpacas which are like triple the price.

I think another reason why I just stick to cherry and gateron now is just because of how many options, it's just easier to keep track of everything compared to "zaku" or "blue bonnet" or "azure dragon v2". I'm newer to the hobby and even I find the amount of swtiches disorienting at times, imagine someone who only knows cherry.

Plus the amount of recolours makes it hard to know what is actually different vs what is just a same swtich that is a different colour for like more than retail (You don't even see the switches in most modern keyboards while typing recolours are so dumb)

At this point I'm probably just gonna make a flowchart that has all the switches you need for good prices and what preferences you have just to make it easier for friends/other people who join the hobby.

[HungerMechanic]

Yes.

There's an image that shows a wizened keyboard customizer. Who is using MX Browns, just like a newbie. Since [when treated properly] the MX Browns can become very good.

So you can do fine with Gateron or Cherry if they happen to fit your needs.

But a flowchart could help.

[Rhienfo]

Yes.

There's an image that shows a wizened keyboard customizer. Who is using MX Browns, just like a newbie. Since [when treated properly] the MX Browns can become very good.

So you can do fine with Gateron or Cherry if they happen to fit your needs.

But a flowchart could help.

do you have the image of the "wizened keyboard customizer" is it like one of those bell curve ones? I do want to see that.

I might actually make a quick flowchart now or something as I have the time for it.

[Rob27shred]

I fear my question may have too broad sort of like asking what switch is the best thats not what Im getting at.

The real question is have the other brands, which were the cheap/budget/good for the price brands when I got my KB better and are they worth considering over Cherrys?

Thats the real question

Yes the other brands have not only caught up, but surpassed Cherry. You can find many brands that are smoother, have tighter tolerances, & make less extraneous noise than Cherry switches stock vs stock. Although I will say as an enthusiast that mods their switches I still find Cherry switches having a special place in my heart. Right now my favorite switches are lubed & filmed Cherry MX new Nixies spring swapped to 55g regular length TX springs. So if you're looking for the best switch to just throw in a keyboard stock & not have to worry about it, you'd be better served with a Cherry competitor. If you're an enthusiast the answer is it's complicated.

[loki993]

I wonder if the OP ever started testing custom switches. Did I scare him off?

Interesting situation you presented with the Keychron vs. Leopold. The Leopold actually has what are even today considered premium keycaps, being thick PBT double-shots. They are almost Cherry-profile. (I think they are some weird proprietary variant like SS2 or something, but they are very close to Cherry.)

The Leopold keyboards are well-designed and well-engineered to start with, so even something like a lower-end Keychron V-series will have difficulty competing with them. The true strength of the Keychron there is its customizability.

I understand that the Leo pretty good. Yes I'm trying to replace it but also I'm not if that make sense. I know I'm likely downgrading but something that's nice to type on and lets me play with switches is desirable to me. Yeah the caps on the Leo are great, the are not double shot, dye sub maybe, but they are side printed so after 7 years of pretty heavy use there is basically no shine on the caps and the legends are still perfect.

Yeah Leo uses their own profile but its as close to Cherry as no one would likely tell the difference. To me for all intents and purposes they're cherry profile.

Ive also considered trying mod the Leo but apparently its not the easiest keyboard to mod and I need to figure out what switches I actually like before I try to tackle that. Also some practice on a couple sacrificial keyboards would be in order.

Ive also considered just getting a Topre board and calling it a day with all of this, I still may but it would be nice to actually try a Topre board before I drop over 200 bucks on one.

Did Leopold ever make a Topre Fc750? I swear they did at one point. FC750C I thought it was but I cant find any reference to that when I google search it. 

I think I like the Chiffons I just need to find a board with a thinner bottom on it to try them on and south facing because I agree I may try other caps but I will probably gravitate back to Cherrys or something similar

I fear my question may have too broad sort of like asking what switch is the best thats not what Im getting at.

The real question is have the other brands, which were the cheap/budget/good for the price brands when I got my KB better and are they worth considering over Cherrys?

Thats the real question

Yes the other brands have not only caught up, but surpassed Cherry. You can find many brands that are smoother, have tighter tolerances, & make less extraneous noise than Cherry switches stock vs stock. Although I will say as an enthusiast that mods their switches I still find Cherry switches having a special place in my heart. Right now my favorite switches are lubed & filmed Cherry MX new Nixies spring swapped to 55g regular length TX springs. So if you're looking for the best switch to just throw in a keyboard stock & not have to worry about it, you'd be better served with a Cherry competitor. If you're an enthusiast the answer is it's complicated.

Yeah I gotta say the Keychron I got has the K pro Reds in it and they are noticeably smoother than the WELL broken in Cherry reds in my Leopold.

[HungerMechanic]

Leopold and others mainly make the 'non-standard' layouts for Topre. So Topre corporation gets to make the TKL and full-size. While Leopold makes the FC660C, which is not a typical Topre size-factor.

So I don't know if there is an FC750C, but that role is largely taken by the Topre Realforce TKL.

It is possible to mod a Leopold. But, as you say, it's best to know what you want first. I can show you some aspects of modding a Leopold later.


My Blueberry Chiffons are on an NCR-80. That is an affordable custom kit. It can be purchased plateless, which is also the cheapest option. So it ends up with pretty thin surfaces, all things considered. It is still a fairly large and hollow keyboard, but there isn't much depth of material.

I find that Chiffons, and other long-pole switches, are good on plateless setups. Because the bottoming-out of the long-pole forms its own 'plate.'



The situation with linears has truly become amazing. Even something like the latest Gateron G Pro 3.0 Yellow are miles smoother than any previous Cherry switch. And those are a budget option.

Buy Gateron Oil Kings if you want the best no-fuss linear. But there are so many to choose from today. Not to say that Cherry doesn't have an appeal. But it's a different kind of appeal.

I think you're at a good stage to be testing some tactiles and linears in a budget hotswap keyboard.

[atarione]

I don't know... I think a lot of the stuff the "hobby" is chasing now is kinda weird.. like the gasket mount stuff which makes the keyboards flex when typing (I guess so they don't hurt their delicate fingies while typing?)   And all sorts of goofy layouts... TKL or bust is basically my point of view after trying a gasket mounted GMK67 (65% keyboard)... The lack of F keys was causing me to drop F Bombs pretty frequently.

I am no expert on the 1bil switches out their with super odd names and whatever.. but on the GMK I got some Outemu  Silent Lemon V2 tactile switches... and they are "fine" but I like the MX-Reds on my Filco MT2 TKL better...   And I didn't (maybe haven't gotten use to it perhaps?) like so far the gasket mount feel... the plate flexes too much in my opinion...   

Obviously This is one fairly cheap and not top tier keyboard...but whatever people are chasing in the hobby now isn't necessarily what I like / want.    I feel like a lot of people are just building weird little keyboards because they look "cool" or whatever.. but they are kind of a pain in the ass to actually use?   Or because they wanna show off or whatever reasons people do anything?




I have tried and I can't tell what people are on about "smoothness" of cherry vs non cherry switches... I may just be to ham-fisted for nuance... but I can't tell the difference going to bb and trying demo boards out really at all.   I have tried for years to figure out what people are on about...but most of it makes no difference to me... And the switches on my Filco has felt smooth enough and uniform even after 8+yrs now.
For Now I am going right back to my 8+yr old Filco TKL which has been my daily keyboard for nearly all of the 8+ years I have owned it...     I have modded my Filco slightly with PE Foam in the case, lub stabilizers and a pig tail removable cable mod I just  completed.   (Notice my Space bar bears witness to it have been daily for 8+yrs by the fact the pbt (vortex dblshot) has a pretty good "shine" on the spot I tend to hit the space bar at 99% of the time.   But I have always liked this keyboard and I like the straight forward professional look of the keyboard...  I can't stand all the pastel abominations I keep seeing on reddit etc..   

Oh well I think I have become a mechanical keyboard Boomer I will have to go out and yell at clouds later?   Also annoyingly I now wanna go buy a FC750RBT.

[mohawk1367]

I don't know... I think a lot of the stuff the "hobby" is chasing now is kinda weird.. like the gasket mount stuff which makes the keyboards flex when typing (I guess so they don't hurt their delicate fingies while typing?)   And all sorts of goofy layouts... TKL or bust is basically my point of view after trying a gasket mounted GMK67 (65% keyboard)... The lack of F keys was causing me to drop F Bombs pretty frequently.

I am no expert on the 1bil switches out their with super odd names and whatever.. but on the GMK I got some Outemu  Silent Lemon V2 tactile switches... and they are "fine" but I like the MX-Reds on my Filco MT2 TKL better...   And I didn't (maybe haven't gotten use to it perhaps?) like so far the gasket mount feel... the plate flexes too much in my opinion...   

Obviously This is one fairly cheap and not top tier keyboard...but whatever people are chasing in the hobby now isn't necessarily what I like / want.    I feel like a lot of people are just building weird little keyboards because they look "cool" or whatever.. but they are kind of a pain in the ass to actually use?   Or because they wanna show off or whatever reasons people do anything?

(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)


I have tried and I can't tell what people are on about "smoothness" of cherry vs non cherry switches... I may just be to ham-fisted for nuance... but I can't tell the difference going to bb and trying demo boards out really at all.   I have tried for years to figure out what people are on about...but most of it makes no difference to me... And the switches on my Filco has felt smooth enough and uniform even after 8+yrs now.
For Now I am going right back to my 8+yr old Filco TKL which has been my daily keyboard for nearly all of the 8+ years I have owned it...     I have modded my Filco slightly with PE Foam in the case, lub stabilizers and a pig tail removable cable mod I just  completed.   (Notice my Space bar bears witness to it have been daily for 8+yrs by the fact the pbt (vortex dblshot) has a pretty good "shine" on the spot I tend to hit the space bar at 99% of the time.   But I have always liked this keyboard and I like the straight forward professional look of the keyboard...  I can't stand all the pastel abominations I keep seeing on reddit etc..   

Oh well I think I have become a mechanical keyboard Boomer I will have to go out and yell at clouds later?   Also annoyingly I now wanna go buy a FC750RBT.

have you tried NEW cherry switches? switches that you've typed on for 7 years will be smoother than new ones

[loki993]

I don't know... I think a lot of the stuff the "hobby" is chasing now is kinda weird.. like the gasket mount stuff which makes the keyboards flex when typing (I guess so they don't hurt their delicate fingies while typing?)   And all sorts of goofy layouts... TKL or bust is basically my point of view after trying a gasket mounted GMK67 (65% keyboard)... The lack of F keys was causing me to drop F Bombs pretty frequently.

I am no expert on the 1bil switches out their with super odd names and whatever.. but on the GMK I got some Outemu  Silent Lemon V2 tactile switches... and they are "fine" but I like the MX-Reds on my Filco MT2 TKL better...   And I didn't (maybe haven't gotten use to it perhaps?) like so far the gasket mount feel... the plate flexes too much in my opinion...   

Obviously This is one fairly cheap and not top tier keyboard...but whatever people are chasing in the hobby now isn't necessarily what I like / want.    I feel like a lot of people are just building weird little keyboards because they look "cool" or whatever.. but they are kind of a pain in the ass to actually use?   Or because they wanna show off or whatever reasons people do anything?

(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)


I have tried and I can't tell what people are on about "smoothness" of cherry vs non cherry switches... I may just be to ham-fisted for nuance... but I can't tell the difference going to bb and trying demo boards out really at all.   I have tried for years to figure out what people are on about...but most of it makes no difference to me... And the switches on my Filco has felt smooth enough and uniform even after 8+yrs now.
For Now I am going right back to my 8+yr old Filco TKL which has been my daily keyboard for nearly all of the 8+ years I have owned it...     I have modded my Filco slightly with PE Foam in the case, lub stabilizers and a pig tail removable cable mod I just  completed.   (Notice my Space bar bears witness to it have been daily for 8+yrs by the fact the pbt (vortex dblshot) has a pretty good "shine" on the spot I tend to hit the space bar at 99% of the time.   But I have always liked this keyboard and I like the straight forward professional look of the keyboard...  I can't stand all the pastel abominations I keep seeing on reddit etc..   

Oh well I think I have become a mechanical keyboard Boomer I will have to go out and yell at clouds later?   Also annoyingly I now wanna go buy a FC750RBT.

I can tell the difference but I dont know that I care all that much either. My old reds are less smooth that the Keychron G pros that came in the V3 I bought but that could just be because they are lubed and my cherrys aren't.

I do agree that I dont understand the tiny keyboard thing, I need all of the keys I use I don't want to mess around with layers and hotkeys or any of that. I don't even want to program my keyboard, I just want something I can plug in and it works.

I like TLKs, but a bit smaller 75 percent I like as well anything less no, I need F keys too.

Also think the hobby, maybe away from this forum, has become more about sound, looks and maybe feel in that order. I don't get or like the whole "thocky" thing and every time I hear it now I want to kick something.

I guess we are both old men yelling at the clouds.

[Prince Valiant]

You haven't tried the camomile pecan pie orbiter click box blaster switch? It's hand lubed by monks and it's sooooooooooooooooooooooo smooth crisp and tactile... !?

It's nice that there are a bunch of options to, hopefully, choose a switch and other things almost tailored to your exact desires. Definitely feels like some people get caught up in trying all the new stuff rather than selecting something to type daily. I appreciate the work the enthusiasts do by wading through it all, but I'm content to stick with 'old reliable' switches (Cherry) and not worry about whatever I might be missing out on.

[atarione]

You haven't tried the camomile pecan pie orbiter click box blaster switch? It's hand lubed by monks and it's sooooooooooooooooooooooo smooth crisp and tactile... !?

It's nice that there are a bunch of options to, hopefully, choose a switch and other things almost tailored to your exact desires. Definitely feels like some people get caught up in trying all the new stuff rather than selecting something to type daily. I appreciate the work the enthusiasts do by wading through it all, but I'm content to stick with 'old reliable' switches (Cherry) and not worry about whatever I might be missing out on.

I am waiting for the mocha acorns... which apparently are sooo tactile you need a doctor's prescription to buy them... they are also illegal in Minnesota apparently.

I can tell the difference but I dont know that I care all that much either. My old reds are less smooth that the Keychron G pros that came in the V3 I bought but that could just be because they are lubed and my cherrys aren't.

I do agree that I dont understand the tiny keyboard thing, I need all of the keys I use I don't want to mess around with layers and hotkeys or any of that. I don't even want to program my keyboard, I just want something I can plug in and it works.

I like TLKs, but a bit smaller 75 percent I like as well anything less no, I need F keys too.

Also think the hobby, maybe away from this forum, has become more about sound, looks and maybe feel in that order. I don't get or like the whole "thocky" thing and every time I hear it now I want to kick something.

I guess we are both old men yelling at the clouds.

In fairness the 75% keyboards look like they could be a reasonable option, but for me I will probably just stick with 80% TKL moving forward.

have you tried NEW cherry switches? switches that you've typed on for 7 years will be smoother than new ones

So great... it is a problem that will solve itself? if anyone thinks reds are not smooth enough 

Honestly... sort of I have a hardly ever used Rosewill RK9000 (I got very cheap and only drag out if I occasionally find a need of a numpad.) which has much less broken in mx-reds... and it is "fine",   I personally didn't notice much difference one way or the other...    I maybe the mech keyboard equivalent of "Tone deaf"

I also have 2x boards with mx-browns  a WASD V1 and a Archiss Quattro TKL (jis w/ trackpoint)... and I barely notice any difference in them vs the reds, especially with the little o-rings on the keycaps for damping. 

here is the Archiss ... in retrospect I should have just get the English version, The JIS layout is a bit of a pain in the butt to use..     Although not because of the tiny space bar.. as it is placed exactly when my Filco's pbt key cap is shined all to heck because it is where I always hit the space bar from.