Author Topic: Where is the line for Copycapping?  (Read 4792 times)

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Offline 9999hp

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Where is the line for Copycapping?
« on: Fri, 01 September 2017, 05:46:24 »
I've posted a similar thread on reddit, however some users don't cross-pollinate.

My question is where is the line when "style-biting" or "copycapping" is concerned?

I have searched on the forums and have found a few discussions on this, however they mostly dealt with the Bro Caps situation, and this is somewhat different as the Bro Caps were directly being copied it seems.

Currently, on mass drop there is a keycap drop going on for a CNC aluminum keycap of a kittens paw. Many are expressing their distaste for the cap claiming it is plagiarizing, using that term very loosely, KeyKollective's meowcap paw print cap. The anti-Z0M0 party (I think that's the creator's name) is saying that the design is not discernible enough from KK's design so massdrop is endorsing copycapping.

The other side, which I don't have a moniker for, is saying that KK doesn't can't have a monopoly on something as common as a cat's paw.

So my question is where is the line? Is it subject matter? Or style? If two people both made dragons, both were Chinese styled, but were different sculpts; would one be considered copying the other (supposing one had done one prior to the other.)? Hypothetically, how would that be seen?

Right now, there aren't very many Artisans making key caps. So it's somewhat easy to find your own niche, however with an increase in popularity and as frequently as new Artisans are cropping up (Maybe 1 new Artisan maker/1-2 weeks recently.) the space for originality is going to decrease. On top of that, what's cool is cool. And what isn't won't be made.

I get that direct copies are taboo, but how much of that genre of subject matter does that artisan (by community proxy mostly, or even personally) claim or reserve for their own works?

How much of that landscape would've changed and had different arguments had K3(sp?) made dinobot head caps instead of straight copies? Would that then be style biting?

What are your thoughts? I'm not looking for debates or the beating of animals equine in features. I'm looking for thoughts. I'm going to admit that I have a vested interest in this topic, as I am currently sculpting keys. With that said, the community is the audience for artisans, if they don't have your back no one will.

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Where is the line for Copycapping?
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 01 September 2017, 05:54:38 »
People vote with their dollars, there isn't much community left, mostly business now, no tears, drama keeps the fires burning.

Besides that I'm still working on my first cup of coffee so I didn't really read everything.

PS: I haven't bought any artisan cap for a long time and don't intend to, artisans are dead to me.

PSS: There are new artisans almost daily it seems trying to break into the scene, it's all about art until it's about the money.

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« Last Edit: Fri, 01 September 2017, 05:57:44 by SpAmRaY »

Offline fanpeople

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Re: Where is the line for Copycapping?
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 01 September 2017, 05:56:52 »
Ask Caselabs about their feelings towards Thermaltake in 2015, similar situation.

I think as long as you don't buy a cap and make a direct copy of it, you are not ****ing on anyone's style.

****ing graffiti artists have (or had, I don't know its been double digits since I was a wanker teenager) similar dummy spits about style thievery. Some are legit claims, some are testosterone fueled wank fests stoked by cumlord himself.


Oh and eat 90% vegi, 10% fat to live forever

There tp I beat you to it, now back to off-topic with you.
 

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Where is the line for Copycapping?
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 01 September 2017, 06:41:16 »
Ask Caselabs about their feelings towards Thermaltake in 2015, similar situation.

I think as long as you don't buy a cap and make a direct copy of it, you are not ****ing on anyone's style.

****ing graffiti artists have (or had, I don't know its been double digits since I was a wanker teenager) similar dummy spits about style thievery. Some are legit claims, some are testosterone fueled wank fests stoked by cumlord himself.


Oh and eat 90% vegi, 10% fat to live forever

There tp I beat you to it, now back to off-topic with you.
 

OMG..  how did you predict that I would be here.. ?

haHAHAHAHAHAHHA




But overall,  the critical component to the keycap arms race is COMPLEXITY..

If you make a product that is in demand and easily copied,   then , it simply will be copied..


So it's the artist's responsibility to increase the product's technological complexity and its uniqueness..



like spam said,  no tears..   this is the real world.

Offline Auk

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Re: Where is the line for Copycapping?
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 01 September 2017, 06:56:02 »
The silhouette of a cats paw print is something to be owned now? This is as ludicrous as people thinking they can own color combinations...

How many of these precious fanboys throwing a tantrum are genuinely concerned about IP theft? and how many are upset about their 'investment' being devalued by something better?

Offline 9999hp

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Re: Where is the line for Copycapping?
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 01 September 2017, 07:14:02 »
People vote with their dollars, there isn't much community left, mostly business now, no tears, drama keeps the fires burning.

Besides that I'm still working on my first cup of coffee so I didn't really read everything.

PS: I haven't bought any artisan cap for a long time and don't intend to, artisans are dead to me.

PSS: There are new artisans almost daily it seems trying to break into the scene, it's all about art until it's about the money.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

As with everything haha. Thanks for the reply, yea I've noticed a lot of the veterans aren't much into it these days. You don't really see them fawning over the influx of newer artisans I've noticed. ymmv. Even then it's almost like a purist thing, they only dabble in the "1st Gen Caps" I'll call them. I think that's a pretty common thing though with early adopters though.

Question for you,

Question for you personally, what changed your mind about artisans? Or rather were you at some point into them, and have since changed; or just bored?

Offline 0100010

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Re: Where is the line for Copycapping?
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 01 September 2017, 07:18:27 »
For me, all these new artisan cap threads in this Making Stuff Together forum, could better be held in a sub-forum.  Would much prefer to keep it limited to controllers, forirmware, cases, plates, pcbs.  YMMV

I don't own any artisans myself, with no plans to.
  Quoting me causes a posting error that you need to ignore.

Offline 9999hp

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Re: Where is the line for Copycapping?
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 01 September 2017, 07:21:50 »
Ask Caselabs about their feelings towards Thermaltake in 2015, similar situation.

I think as long as you don't buy a cap and make a direct copy of it, you are not ****ing on anyone's style.

****ing graffiti artists have (or had, I don't know its been double digits since I was a wanker teenager) similar dummy spits about style thievery. Some are legit claims, some are testosterone fueled wank fests stoked by cumlord himself.


Oh and eat 90% vegi, 10% fat to live forever

There tp I beat you to it, now back to off-topic with you.

Yea, graffiti artists are kind of similar in that aspect. Actually very similar, except different mediums. I suppose it's kind of a "Do it, and see what happens" thing.

Meat, meat, the magical food, the more you eat it, the less you poo. The less you poo, the more you can do; meat, meat for every mood

Offline 9999hp

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Re: Where is the line for Copycapping?
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 01 September 2017, 07:24:03 »
Ask Caselabs about their feelings towards Thermaltake in 2015, similar situation.

I think as long as you don't buy a cap and make a direct copy of it, you are not ****ing on anyone's style.

****ing graffiti artists have (or had, I don't know its been double digits since I was a wanker teenager) similar dummy spits about style thievery. Some are legit claims, some are testosterone fueled wank fests stoked by cumlord himself.


Oh and eat 90% vegi, 10% fat to live forever

There tp I beat you to it, now back to off-topic with you.
 

OMG..  how did you predict that I would be here.. ?

haHAHAHAHAHAHHA




But overall,  the critical component to the keycap arms race is COMPLEXITY..

If you make a product that is in demand and easily copied,   then , it simply will be copied..


So it's the artist's responsibility to increase the product's technological complexity and its uniqueness..



like spam said,  no tears..   this is the real world.

You guys got a good laugh from me, thanks for the input. I have to agree with you. I didn't really think of complexity as a deterrent.

Offline 9999hp

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Re: Where is the line for Copycapping?
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 01 September 2017, 07:32:25 »
The silhouette of a cats paw print is something to be owned now? This is as ludicrous as people thinking they can own color combinations...

How many of these precious fanboys throwing a tantrum are genuinely concerned about IP theft? and how many are upset about their 'investment' being devalued by something better?

Ooooh many people are upset, but I dial the actual level of outrage back to compensate since its source is da net. Yea that was their argument. I think that's the more rationale thing to say, of the two arguments. 

 Idk man, I think it's a mixed bag. Some people might've seen the beginning of that artist come up from the beginning and gain in popularity. Sometimes people can latch onto that and hold some sort of emotional personal investment. Then I think there are also the people who don't want to see their $250+ dollar purchase get devalued because of what they think is a ripoff. Name brand or off-brand, Fruit-loops or fruit circles, jordans vs shaqs.

Offline 9999hp

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Re: Where is the line for Copycapping?
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 01 September 2017, 07:34:09 »
For me, all these new artisan cap threads in this Making Stuff Together forum, could better be held in a sub-forum.  Would much prefer to keep it limited to controllers, forirmware, cases, plates, pcbs.  YMMV

I don't own any artisans myself, with no plans to.

I've seen those. I don't have a formed opinion on that. I think artisans are kind of separate and definitely different than the things you mentioned. So there's that.

No interest in gaudiness? or haven't seen anything cool?

Offline kmba

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Re: Where is the line for Copycapping?
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 01 September 2017, 10:19:44 »
Anything but a direct copy is allowable in my book.
keyboards.

Offline zslane

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Re: Where is the line for Copycapping?
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 01 September 2017, 12:10:56 »
The law says one thing, the conscience says another.

You can chase your tail for days debating the legal aspect of this, especially considering the laws for such things differ from country to country, and few countries share enforcement agreements. As a rule, you don't really know whether or not you are violating a copyright until you are challenged in court and the charges are upheld by a judge. In the U.S., you can't own an idea, only a concrete expression of it (a specific mechanical design, a written text, a painting, etc.), so you won't see any legal machinery stepping in to protect the mere idea of a keycap that looks like a kitten's paw or face. All those artisans with Marvel characters/logos on them are clear trademark violations, but the violators get away with it because nobody with the power to bring the legal system to bear knows about them, or cares enough to spend the money to pursue legal action.

Which leads to the question of artistic integrity. Are you an artist with original ideas? Or are you just good at being inspired by the work of others and creating your own variations? In the art world, both are legitimate forms of artistic expression, as long as the so-called "copies" have some element of originality to them. A hundred different designers can make cat's paw artisans as long as each puts their own spin on it. The mere idea of putting a cat's paw (or robot's head, or zombie face, or what-have-you) onto a keycap is only original the first time someone does it, and then it is off to the races as different artists express that idea differently (one would hope). That is simply how art works.

Of course, there are direct (or near direct) copies of things being made and sold from countries that neither honor nor relate to western notions of artistic "ownership" and the drive to receive compensation and credit for personal creative effort. Getting them to stop what they're doing becomes a struggle between very different cultural and economic traditions.

Offline LevelSteam

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Re: Where is the line for Copycapping?
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 12 September 2017, 14:05:14 »
It's a grey area to me. I think as long as someone isn't explicitly stealing another person's design (like with what happened during that cat keycap fiasco on Massdrop a few months back where the vendor used another person's 3D keycap to cast replicas) then it's fair game. I only own one true "artisan" keycap myself with no real plans to buy more though.

Offline OfTheWild

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Re: Where is the line for Copycapping?
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 13 September 2017, 19:33:31 »
Art is stealing (or borrowing as I like to see it). Thats what gives us inspiration! Some of the coolest caps i've seen are from a videogame or a book or from a tv show. I would hope that we would spend our money on the caps that are hand made by contributing members of this community and not the factory made injection molded plastic by companies but there are a lot of people out there that are exposed to large places like Massdrop that can rope someone into buying a worthless cap.

There are lots of caps that are of the same subject - turtles, sloths, monkeys/apes, lions, wolves, frogs, robots, cats, god forbid someone make another effing skull varient... But that doesn't mean they're copies. Maybe even inspired by the other cap, its ultimately up to the consumer to decide if there is a unique quality and value there.
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Offline HotRoderX

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Re: Where is the line for Copycapping?
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 13 September 2017, 21:56:45 »
I know the meow cap your talking about ordered one cause of all the outrage.... and firmly side with the its not a copy get over it crowd! I still side with that crowd even harder now... here my 2 cents on this


What some of these artisan cap makers are making... they really need to lawyer up.. get a Tax ID.. and Trademark there work... there you go problem solved it be up to a judge to decide if something is copied or not...

but as far as caps go.. if you make a cap as a simple as a design such as a leaf, paw, smiley face.. etc etc... you can not expect it not to be copied! Why there only so many way's to design these things.. and there all going to look about the same at the end of the day.

More Complex keycap's I would say fall under more of the if someone is buying and making a mold or sculpting a almost 1:1 mold of the cap... then yea there issue but lets take the puffer fish... that are super popular! if someone came along made a design sorta like that perhaps the eyes are shaped different... and the spikes are a bit more detailed and done just a bit differently on the body. Then guess what I wouldn't see a issue with it.. if the original creator did.. take it to court hash it out.. that why DMCA is a thing.

but most the outrage on Massdrop was a bunch of people upset there investments where about to be worth a lot less... cause someone made a metal cap that sorta looked like there's....

Just a thought wouldn't almost all keycaps except the fugu  and the like that are rounded be a almost direct copy of cherry caps anyway? since there all cap shaped... that about how solid the argument a metal cat paw cap was a rip off of another cat paw cap.

Offline zslane

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Re: Where is the line for Copycapping?
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 14 September 2017, 12:31:12 »
It would help, of course, if the people carrying on any discussion about IP law actually understood what they were talking about. Terms like copyright, trademark, and patent are thrown around all the time by people who clearly do not understand the legal or practical details.

From a practical standpoint, the legal aspect of this is almost completely irrelevant. The only "line" to draw in the sand is an ethical one, not a legal one. Good luck getting two diametrically opposed cultural ideologies to agree on the ethics of this.

Offline superpiya

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Re: Where is the line for Copycapping?
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 15 September 2017, 05:03:38 »
They look different to me. One is made of resin, and one is made of metal. Oh, and I also collect KK meowcaps.