Author Topic: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions (Read 1298176 times)

zslane · « **Reply #6300 on:** Wed, 01 May 2024, 11:02:59 »

How often do we see keycap sets offered today with the kind of layout flexibility that the old 7-bit group buys used to offer? In settling on the Model M color scheme as the basis for keycap sets, we've sacrificed flexibility in favor of reduced cost (and production time). Maybe that's a reasonable trade-off for most folks, but I'm sure glad I got all my Round 6 CADET and HONEY keycaps when I did.

_rubik · « **Reply #6301 on:** Wed, 01 May 2024, 12:48:53 »

Quote from: zslane on Wed, 01 May 2024, 11:02:59

How often do we see keycap sets offered today with the kind of layout flexibility that the old 7-bit group buys used to offer? In settling on the Model M color scheme as the basis for keycap sets, we've sacrificed flexibility in favor of reduced cost (and production time). Maybe that's a reasonable trade-off for most folks, but I'm sure glad I got all my Round 6 CADET and HONEY keycaps when I did.

I feels like we make assumptions based on what's trendy, not what people actually use/need. It's one thing if the IC decides to remove an under-loved kit, but it's another if they don't offer the kit to begin with.

IMO every set should have full TKL coverage with mandatory 40s, fullsize, and ISO kits with no MoQ threshold. It's frustrating to shop for new sets and have to rule out most options just because your keyboard is smaller than 60% or larger than 75%

Rhienfo · « **Reply #6302 on:** Wed, 01 May 2024, 13:04:49 »

I think the lack of better kitting comes from both people not knowing how to do it properly, but also demand/price of extras kits which I think is the most important thing.

A lot of the more niche things like extended 40s support and nordeuk just don't have the demand to reach separate moqs especially at what gmk wants for extra kits. So a lot of that stuff is either scrapped or very limited like modern 40s support (which is now 3 key I guess, that's what I've been seeing a lot when it comes to kitting)

It's a shame but what can you do.

wjrii · « **Reply #6303 on:** Wed, 01 May 2024, 16:53:31 »

Is there any sort of "standard" for kitting? Even if unevenly followed and/or varying between makers? I find I'm interested in projects that drift away from standard kitting, but there are only so many things you can do within the limitations of what will be on an ANSI 60%, which seems to be the only thing you can safely assume.

Rhienfo · « **Reply #6304 on:** Wed, 01 May 2024, 17:32:58 »

Quote from: wjrii on Wed, 01 May 2024, 16:53:31

Is there any sort of "standard" for kitting? Even if unevenly followed and/or varying between makers? I find I'm interested in projects that drift away from standard kitting, but there are only so many things you can do within the limitations of what will be on an ANSI 60%, which seems to be the only thing you can safely assume.

There is no base standard when it comes to kitting, but the one I posted below is generally what the average kitting will look like (except for 1.5 function, that isn't common in base at least)

It really depends on the person, but generally a good set will accommodate all of this at the bare minimum (there are some exceptions, I have seen people remove 6.25u bottom row for smaller runs with sp for example)

For extension kits, you generally see stuff like mx hhkb support, r3 and r4 pg dn and up, shinethrough caps that sorta thing. But again that varies among designer, If I ever run a keyset mx hhkb support will probably be in base.

wjrii · « **Reply #6305 on:** Thu, 02 May 2024, 07:54:01 »

Quote from: Rhienfo on Wed, 01 May 2024, 17:32:58

There is no base standard when it comes to kitting, but the one I posted below is generally what the average kitting will look like (except for 1.5 function, that isn't common in base at least)

It really depends on the person, but generally a good set will accommodate all of this at the bare minimum (there are some exceptions, I have seen people remove 6.25u bottom row for smaller runs with sp for example)

For extension kits, you generally see stuff like mx hhkb support, r3 and r4 pg dn and up, shinethrough caps that sorta thing. But again that varies among designer, If I ever run a keyset mx hhkb support will probably be in base.

Thanks. My issue is always finding wider keys from sculpted profiles outside their normal rows. Even as blanks, that's not easy, though it certainly looks like I might have some options with R3 1.75u and R2 1.5u. I am noodling around with one more hand-wire project before I start exploring PCB design. I haven't quite figured out what it'll be, but accommodating sculpted keycaps is something I'd like to include.

GummyPink · « **Reply #6306 on:** Fri, 03 May 2024, 05:56:40 »

They should make more 100% keyboards. I still haven't found one I liked.

mathisart · « **Reply #6307 on:** Fri, 10 May 2024, 09:10:31 »

QWERTY should be discontinued.
Staggered should be discontinued.
All keyboards should be ortholinear. Or hexagonal. Or something.

Rob27shred · « **Reply #6308 on:** Fri, 10 May 2024, 17:04:35 »

Quote from: mathisart on Fri, 10 May 2024, 09:10:31

QWERTY should be discontinued.
Staggered should be discontinued.
All keyboards should be ortholinear. Or hexagonal. Or something.

Meh, I'd pass hard on that opinion. Don't get me wrong you are right from an ergonomic & speed perspective, but TBH ortho layouts just look so bland to me. Also QWERTY is way to ingrained in me to even want to change. Although I do not use my keyboards at work & do not need the best ergonomics or most efficient layout, so I can see why these are more sought after for people who have to type all day for work.

Rhienfo · « **Reply #6309 on:** Sat, 11 May 2024, 08:01:36 »

Quote from: Rob27shred on Fri, 10 May 2024, 17:04:35

Quote from: mathisart on Fri, 10 May 2024, 09:10:31
QWERTY should be discontinued.
Staggered should be discontinued.
All keyboards should be ortholinear. Or hexagonal. Or something.
Meh, I'd pass hard on that opinion. Don't get me wrong you are right from an ergonomic & speed perspective, but TBH ortho layouts just look so bland to me. Also QWERTY is way to ingrained in me to even want to change. Although I do not use my keyboards at work & do not need the best ergonomics or most efficient layout, so I can see why these are more sought after for people who have to type all day for work.

Yeah it definitely seems better for typing, but I'm just used to qwerty and staggered as well.

One ortho board that looks sick is the lumberjack 60 project, It's very visually appealing especially with the through hole components separating the two halfs. Would be a fun project to do too, even if it wouldn't get too much use

https://kbd.news/Lumberjack-a-60-ortho-56.html

Rob27shred · « **Reply #6310 on:** Sat, 11 May 2024, 16:00:35 »

Quote from: Rhienfo on Sat, 11 May 2024, 08:01:36

Quote from: Rob27shred on Fri, 10 May 2024, 17:04:35
Quote from: mathisart on Fri, 10 May 2024, 09:10:31
QWERTY should be discontinued.
Staggered should be discontinued.
All keyboards should be ortholinear. Or hexagonal. Or something.
Meh, I'd pass hard on that opinion. Don't get me wrong you are right from an ergonomic & speed perspective, but TBH ortho layouts just look so bland to me. Also QWERTY is way to ingrained in me to even want to change. Although I do not use my keyboards at work & do not need the best ergonomics or most efficient layout, so I can see why these are more sought after for people who have to type all day for work.

Yeah it definitely seems better for typing, but I'm just used to qwerty and staggered as well.

One ortho board that looks sick is the lumberjack 60 project, It's very visually appealing especially with the through hole components separating the two halfs. Would be a fun project to do too, even if it wouldn't get too much use

https://kbd.news/Lumberjack-a-60-ortho-56.html

I do agree the Lumberjack does look pretty cool, but I think that's more thanks to the exposed diodes/controller. Those boards always look really cool to me.

Prince Valiant · « **Reply #6311 on:** Tue, 14 May 2024, 15:01:38 »

Quote from: mathisart on Fri, 10 May 2024, 09:10:31

QWERTY should be discontinued.
Staggered should be discontinued.
All keyboards should be ortholinear. Or hexagonal. Or something.

Which layout would you champion?

_rubik · « **Reply #6312 on:** Tue, 14 May 2024, 17:55:23 »

Quote from: Prince Valiant on Tue, 14 May 2024, 15:01:38

Quote from: mathisart on Fri, 10 May 2024, 09:10:31
QWERTY should be discontinued.
Staggered should be discontinued.
All keyboards should be ortholinear. Or hexagonal. Or something.
Which layout would you champion?

Not OP, but I've been rocking the 6 column Corne for the last few months. I really can't see myself needing anything more / less outside of curiosity and boredom. Staggered columnar with or without a numrow is probably the best bet for most folks looking to try out non-traditional layouts.

Prince Valiant · « **Reply #6313 on:** Wed, 15 May 2024, 08:12:27 »

Quote from: _rubik on Tue, 14 May 2024, 17:55:23

Not OP, but I've been rocking the 6 column Corne for the last few months. I really can't see myself needing anything more / less outside of curiosity and boredom. Staggered columnar with or without a numrow is probably the best bet for most folks looking to try out non-traditional layouts.

I meant key layout (dvorak, colemak, etc.). I've thought about trying something else out but I'd either have to get used to potentially swapping back to QWERTY frequently or buy another programmable KB to drag around. With physical layouts I think it's best to go with with whatever feels most comfortable.

mathisart · « **Reply #6314 on:** Wed, 15 May 2024, 14:55:57 »

Quote from: Prince Valiant on Tue, 14 May 2024, 15:01:38

Quote from: mathisart on Fri, 10 May 2024, 09:10:31
QWERTY should be discontinued.
Staggered should be discontinued.
All keyboards should be ortholinear. Or hexagonal. Or something.
Which layout would you champion?

I don't exactly champion it. I'd like a better one (which I guess exists). I'm using QGMLWB.

Rhienfo · « **Reply #6315 on:** Wed, 15 May 2024, 19:27:57 »

Quote from: mathisart on Wed, 15 May 2024, 14:55:57

I don't exactly champion it. I'd like a better one (which I guess exists). I'm using QGMLWB.

What's the benefit of putting L in the top row?. I feel like that would result in more hand movements because L is a pretty common letter used.

Prince Valiant · « **Reply #6316 on:** Thu, 16 May 2024, 07:59:40 »

Quote from: mathisart on Wed, 15 May 2024, 14:55:57

I don't exactly champion it. I'd like a better one (which I guess exists). I'm using QGMLWB.

What do you think of it? The biggest issue I have with QWERTY is some of the awkward combos.

clay · « **Reply #6317 on:** Sat, 18 May 2024, 01:57:29 »

"Thock" in MX boards sound cheap. The low pitched acoustic sound can be achieved in cheaper plastic boards when you stuff it with foams and polyfill etc. If you have a high end keyboard, embrace the sound that it naturally makes instead of forcing it to thock. Or better still, if you want true thock, you go Topre.

iri · « **Reply #6318 on:** Sat, 18 May 2024, 05:04:06 »

Quote from: clay on Sat, 18 May 2024, 01:57:29

"Thock" in MX boards sound cheap. The low pitched acoustic sound can be achieved in cheaper plastic boards when you stuff it with foams and polyfill etc. If you have a high end keyboard, embrace the sound that it naturally makes instead of forcing it to thock. Or better still, if you want true thock, you go Topre.

UNpopular opinions

clay · « **Reply #6319 on:** Sat, 18 May 2024, 23:39:37 »

One of the most popular opinions ever

Attackly · « **Reply #6320 on:** Sun, 19 May 2024, 03:12:53 »

1. I hate 100% keyboards. Look ugly. Too big.

2. Hhkb to expensive for what it is.

3. SA keyboards. First keycap set was SA might have given up on this hobby because of them

4. Plastic cases. Im personally not a fan but can see why people chose it as a budget option. Or people new to the hobby.

5. artisan keycaps. Metal keycap for escape key cool and often good. But to many are over the top. Including resin keyaps.

Gesendet von meinem Pixel 6 Pro mit Tapatalk

shingi · « **Reply #6321 on:** Sun, 19 May 2024, 10:38:03 »

I find the lack of Southpaw-layout keyboards to be blasphemous!

Rob27shred · « **Reply #6322 on:** Sun, 19 May 2024, 17:09:45 »

Quote from: shingi on Sun, 19 May 2024, 10:38:03

I find the lack of Southpaw-layout keyboards to be blasphemous!

You must not be keeping an eye out on ICs & GBs to well then. There has been quite a few KBs ran that were southpaw or at least had a southpaw option (The Class 0413 is a good example) in the last year or two. I will admit they are still definitely in the minority compared to traditional layout KBs, but there has definitely been quite a few available recently.

mashie · « **Reply #6323 on:** Tue, 21 May 2024, 07:28:25 »

Pretty much every key cap set with an ISO version/addon got the wrong colour of the pipe/backslash key next to the left shift as that key ends up with the alpha colour and not the colour of the shift key. As a result you get a very strange layout with dual colour setups and not the nice symmetrical look of an ANSI keyboard.

The only exception to this rule are the Keychron key caps.

zslane · « **Reply #6324 on:** Tue, 21 May 2024, 11:01:58 »

The |\ key (and the ~` key) is not a modifier; it is an alpha. That's why it is colored like an alpha. This organizing principle is based on key purpose/functionality, not on an OCD-driven need for color symmetry. I prefer not to let the crazies dictate how we organize our keycaps, tyvm.

Besides, once you graduate to keyboards with more than 60 keys, color symmetry goes right out the window anyway, with the nav cluster weighing down the entire right side with mod-colored keys, and the numpad layout only half-surrounding the numbers (and period) with mod-colored operation keys (plus num lock and Enter). And then there's the alternating color blocks of F-keys, which makes no sense either functionality-wise or color-symmetry-wise. Best to just realize that the standard color/layout scheme we have is based on an ill-conceived IBM design and learn to embrace it since it's not going away any time soon.

Rhienfo · « **Reply #6325 on:** Tue, 21 May 2024, 13:33:17 »

Quote from: zslane on Tue, 21 May 2024, 11:01:58

The |\ key (and the ~` key) is not a modifier; it is an alpha. That's why it is colored like an alpha. This organizing principle is based on key purpose/functionality, not on an OCD-driven need for color symmetry. I prefer not to let the crazies dictate how we organize our keycaps, tyvm.

Besides, once you graduate to keyboards with more than 60 keys, color symmetry goes right out the window anyway, with the nav cluster weighing down the entire right side with mod-colored keys, and the numpad layout only half-surrounding the numbers (and period) with mod-colored operation keys (plus num lock and Enter). And then there's the alternating color blocks of F-keys, which makes no sense either functionality-wise or color-symmetry-wise. Best to just realize that the standard color/layout scheme we have is based on an ill-conceived IBM design and learn to embrace it since it's not going away any time soon.

As you said that colour symmetry goes out the window anyway, so why not throw it harder and use mod pipe lol.

Actually though, I did used to use `~ key in the modifier colour on the hhkb/tsangan layout because that keeps it all the colours the same, idk I've always found it looking weird that the beige hhkbs (the blanks especially) have the alpha coloured `~ key in the top right, maybes that's influenced by the fact that I had no idea why the keys were coloured differently until recently where I realised the obvious lol.

Also yeah why does the f-row alternate like that, that doesn't make sense but I think the IBM layout, was made to be useable to basically everyone and had everything there, even if it's not even the best layout that IBM did (the at is a lot better imo), so I guess some liberties were placed on making it look more aesthetically pleasing. I have a feeling this is true because they used to do full mod colour f rows on some of earliest examples of the modern layout with the ibm 3161 terminal, which is interesting to note.

Tseg · « **Reply #6326 on:** Tue, 21 May 2024, 15:08:55 »

I've participated in a number of collectible hobbies over several decades. Participating in the keyboard hobby for 3/4 of a year has been short-lived but enjoyable. My touch-typing has more than doubled in speed, I now own 7 keyboards with 2 more group-buys on the way, I gave another keyboard to my son.... I have 40% to 100% boards, Topre, Buckling-Spring, etc.... I probably am $3K-$4K into this hobby, but as far as hobbies go, that is low cost to be pretty immersed with key brands and technologies of the hobby. Definitely no regrets, but I feel a bit like I've already hit the end of the internet with this one. It definitely needs to go more upscale, somehow. I'll still stay engaged, but there hardly is any next thing I seek. The depth and breadth of the hobby is only slightly deeper than the vacuum collecting and snow blower collecting communities I've participated in... nothing like watches, cameras, knives, TV's, stereos, leather boots or even the barista coffee machine collecting communities, etc....

This may be an unpopular keyboard opinion.

ArchDill · « **Reply #6327 on:** Tue, 21 May 2024, 15:10:02 »

I am digging the Logitech MX Mechanical Mini... Do not even use any other boards anymore.

It even has browns...

I love it.

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Author Topic: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions (Read 1298176 times)