Author Topic: PMK Group Buys / Interest Checks  (Read 5578 times)

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Offline Oobly

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PMK Group Buys / Interest Checks
« on: Fri, 08 August 2014, 03:18:44 »
Hi all,

Just thought I would give some feedback here and see if my thoughts are shared by others or if I've got something wrong.

IMO, the way PMK Group Buys are done is not working.

Too few of the designed sets are meeting MOQ. The reasons for this can be debated, but IMHO the main reason is that the Group Buy threads are not visible enough to people browsing GeekHack. This leads to not enough exposure for a Group Buy and that leads to another complicated situation, namely the balance of pricing per tier and setting a lowest tier as MOQ. If the Group Buy starter isn't confident of reaching a certain tier, they will set the MOQ to a low number. This results in a high starting cost and that results in fewer orders. So the sets don't hit MOQ and nobody gets what they want.

I have participated in two Group Buys that have been victim to this happening.

Adding an Interest Check section to the PMK website will not remedy this as it doesn't change the visibility of the Group Buys. It just puts them in two different places on the same site, with the same people seeing them as they would have before.

Which brings me to my point: Any Group Buy should be allowed to be posted in the Group Buys section (especially Group Buys for sets designed by GH members). Likewise for Interest Checks. That way, the sets will gain enough visibility to get enough people interested that we can start the MOQ at a decent level (say 50 or 75 sets), have a lower starting price and get orders placed from the start. IMHO, this is the way to get sets to meet MOQ, get enough orders to reach higher tiers and make everybody happy (SP gets orders for sets, we get the sets we want at a decent price).

Any thoughts on this matter?

Yours sincerely,

Oobly
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Offline rowdy

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Re: PMK Group Buys / Interest Checks
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 08 August 2014, 07:38:25 »
Again I ask who does not check the PMK GB site on a daily basis?

I have a bunch of sites bookmarked that I check every day.  Twice a day sometimes.
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: PMK Group Buys / Interest Checks
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 08 August 2014, 07:50:03 »
I think it would be nice to see a compromise. The PMK/SP GBs "main post" can be kept as is and then a reference or a heads up thread could be made in the GB sub-forum. So it gets visibility in the GBs forum but keeps the information in the PMK forum.

Offline Oobly

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Re: PMK Group Buys / Interest Checks
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 08 August 2014, 08:02:28 »
I think it would be nice to see a compromise. The PMK/SP GBs "main post" can be kept as is and then a reference or a heads up thread could be made in the GB sub-forum. So it gets visibility in the GBs forum but keeps the information in the PMK forum.

I think this is a great idea!

Again I ask who does not check the PMK GB site on a daily basis?

I have a bunch of sites bookmarked that I check every day.  Twice a day sometimes.

I wasn't aware SP had a Vendors subforum until a short while ago. Let alone that I could find out more about PMK Group Buys there. The only Group Buys I knew about were in the Group Buys section, because that's where I expected a Group Buy would be.

Of course, once you've been to the PMK site and figured out the links and how things work, etc, you will be aware to check in the right places, but before that you just don't know. A couple of Group Buys completely passed me by because of this.
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Offline Sent

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Re: PMK Group Buys / Interest Checks
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 08 August 2014, 08:11:06 »
For what it's worth, I left the site and just recently came back...had no clue there was PMK GB site.  It wasn't until I saw the Granite set and looked more carefully through the subforums that realized they had a site I could check.  It's not crazy hard to figure out but it definitely could be made easier to spot.  Just my .02

Offline DanielT

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Re: PMK Group Buys / Interest Checks
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 08 August 2014, 08:42:08 »
Speaking as someone who ran 2 GB's on PMK I can say that it's a pain to be stuck in the subforum. OK I check it, I also check the PMK site on a daily basis, but from the feedback I got after the GB's ended I was amazed how many people did not knew about them.
Also, being stuck in the subforum if there are no updates nobody checks the area and the GB threads die there. As GB leader you must make daily updates and keep the thread alive so that people notice that the subforum has new stuff.
It's a pain, but if you believe in the stuff you are proposing and promoting you can make it  :thumb:

What I don't understand is why the GB's hosted on PMK are called Vendor GB's, PMK is only a platform, the design is not made by SP and the organizer has not profit more than a free set if it tips (there is no GB participation fee), and let me tell you when you run single key GB's and you get one key for free that is no profit at all, and as it was in my case we were 2 guys involved so half a key for each of us :P

But these are the rules, I respect the decision that has been made and I acted accordingly, it's harder this way but it can be done.

L.E: What I noticed is a lot of GB's running at the same time, this lowers the chances for all of them. I think It would be nice to a have a topic at least for PMK where all the proposed GB's to be listed, to have a waiting queue. Something like:
1. TT GB
2. BB GB
3. ZZ GB
After GB nr. 1 is finished, it's place is taken by the next in line. This way cannibalization would be avoided. I know everyone wants to run his design "right now", but after seeing so many good designs fail or barely make it , some organization would be good.
« Last Edit: Fri, 08 August 2014, 08:49:14 by DanielT »
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Offline Data

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Re: PMK Group Buys / Interest Checks
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 08 August 2014, 08:58:09 »
I'm new but I'll sound off since I participate in these threads.

Group Buys should be in the Group Buy forum.  The only thing we need in the Signature Plastics forum is an index of active Group Buys running on PMK with links to the actual GB page on PMK and to the associated discussion on the GB forum.  Having to hunt for GBs in multiple subforums is tedious, to say the least.

Two cents, etc...

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: PMK Group Buys / Interest Checks
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 08 August 2014, 09:26:38 »
It's already been discussed, and from what I can tell, the policy of where to put the group buy threads is currently being reviewed. That said, I don't think visibility, or the lack thereof, is the problem with PMK-run group buys.

The problem is the belief that anyone and everyone can and should run a group buy.

There used to exist a high barrier to entry as a group buy organizer. You had to design a great colorway, with legend choices, kit choices, etc. AND you had to run an interest check, start a group buy thread, take orders, take payments, order the keycaps from SP, sort the keycaps into sets, and ship them out to the GB partictpants. That was all VERY HARD WORK. So only the truly dedicated would attempt it. But now, anyone with an idea for a colorway that THEY PERSONALLY WANT can go to the PMK site, set up a GB, and away it runs. This is not a good model for the community, although it is exactly the business model that Signature Plastics is looking for.

Also, as DanielT said, there is a problem of too many group buys running at the same time. With the previous method of running group buys, the organizers would communicate with each other, so as not to overlap their group buys and dilute the buying power of the group. There should be a maximum of one full set group buy running per month, to allow people time to recoup funds if they wish to participate in more than one GB.

And finally there is the problem of breadth. Group buys should be interesting to a wide group of people. As an organizer, when you choose a certain profile for the keycaps, you lock in that choice for everyone. Not everyone likes DSA or SA, and not everyone prefers PBT dyesub over ABS double shot. There is a very vocal minority, whose keyboard choice (e.g. ErgoDox) dictates to them what keysets in which profiles they will buy. However, when creating a group buy targeted toward a large audience, those concerns should be secondary. The organizer should assume that the base user, or the target audience of the set, owns an 87-key or 104-key keyboard, and plan the set around that. Not think of that as a secondary market.

As far as visibility of the group buy goes, yes, the organizer needs to post regular updates and keep the thread alive, no matter which section of the forum the thread is posted in. That way when people click the "UNREAD" link at the top of the page, the thread appears in the list, and thus the buy remains visible.
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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: PMK Group Buys / Interest Checks
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 08 August 2014, 10:03:35 »
Another thought for anyone who's having problems with "being stuck in a sub-forum". Every so often, hit the "Spy" tab and see what is new and fresh on Geekhack. Spy doesn't care about sub-forums, just lists any new post in the last hour or x time period.

Offline BunnyLake

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Re: PMK Group Buys / Interest Checks
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 08 August 2014, 10:03:52 »
i really dont understand how lack of visability is a problem, no matter what thread you go to on geekhack, there are like 18 signatures pointing people here

and as an fyi, i just ran a gb which i didnt even post a thread about in the gb section, and it sold double the numbers i wanted to sell of it in 2 days

look at the numbers some buys matteo has done on this platform, people are aware of pmk, and this subforum, as much so as the gb section

many factors go in to running a successful gb, but the thread in which it is posted in will barely make a difference, providing a great set, that appeals to a lot of people, and providing good service and updates is the most important thing, also, a much larger part than people think is simply who is running the gb

i think what people need to understand is how this should be categorised, and what is happening

people are picking some colours and a profile, maybe the odd custom image or 2, and sending them to a company, who is then selling that idea as a product, but putting a gate as to the minimum amount of orders as to make it profitable for them with there large set up costs

what sp have done is a great business model for them, the reason things are struggling to hit MOQ is because it isnt the best business model for out community, on paper it may seem great, but in practice there are many issues

forgetting how the traditional definition of a gb is, how i define it within our community is that a member or members of this community get together, to host a group buy, where we handle everything besides manufacture, it is then ours, we have an idea, and we see it through to completion, and each time, it is something the community can get behind and feel proud of, we band together to get something done, and support each other through issues along the way

through all the benefits of this system, it removes all the soul and achievement of doing that, and therefore removes a lot of the will of the community to push it, support it and see it through to completion

the truth is, groupbuys are hard work, but that is part of it, and part of the reason so many of us support them

as JD mentioned, another issue here is market saturation, because now people see running a "gb" as little more than sending an email, and occasionally replying in a thread, anyone and everyone is trying it, because there is little to no repercussion for failure, and slim to no barrier to entry, when these buys dont go well, people cry out, looking for things to blame, like it must be the thread the gb was placed in etc, the fact is, it takes work to drum up demand and interest, and thought as to not just what you want, but what the masses want, a lot of people listen either just to themselves, or the vocal minority, too many gbs are layed out in such a way to please the 10% at the expense of the 90%, rather than please the 90% but facilitate that vocal minority

what i see is ultimately happening here is, people are now being put off from running their own gb in favour of using this system, but that this system sometimes struggles to hit the numbers we are used to seeing because of a combination of too many too soon, and the reason the listed above

im not saying this system shouldnt exist, but that people shouldnt have the same expectations or think of it the same way as we think of community run gbs, i do however think it should be refined and restructured slightly, making the barrier to entry higher, perhaps having an on site interest check, where the gb doesnt go live, until each kit hits x number of votes, making it the organisers job to show they have the demand to justify the buy being there potentially taking or splitting orders from other buys, the site can then email everyone who showed interest when the buy goes live, part of the issue i feel is also how unclear pricing and payment is, and because they start with such low numbers etc, people are hesitant to commit, and because they dont commit, that cycle continues



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Offline LechnerDE

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Re: PMK Group Buys / Interest Checks
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 08 August 2014, 10:59:01 »
JD and Bunny pretty much said it all in their posts.

I think the problem is indeed not the bad visibility, but the oversaturation of mediocre sets competing against each other.

I mean compare the current PMK GBs against Bunny's Bro Set with extra novelty caps plus everything you need for a nice price.


If PMK had Massdrop's commitment system and GBs could start at 75 sets the problem wouldn't be that big though...

Offline Krogenar

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Re: PMK Group Buys / Interest Checks
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 08 August 2014, 11:44:17 »
IMO, the way PMK Group Buys are done is not working.

They seem to working just fine to me.

Quote from: Oobly
Too few of the designed sets are meeting MOQ. The reasons for this can be debated, but IMHO the main reason is that the Group Buy threads are not visible enough to people browsing GeekHack. This leads to not enough exposure for a Group Buy and that leads to another complicated situation, namely the balance of pricing per tier and setting a lowest tier as MOQ. If the Group Buy starter isn't confident of reaching a certain tier, they will set the MOQ to a low number. This results in a high starting cost and that results in fewer orders. So the sets don't hit MOQ and nobody gets what they want.

This was all exhaustively discussed in an older thread a few months ago.

I referred to this practice as a 'subforum ghetto' for PMK, but PMK seems to be doing just fine anyway. If all GBs were to be placed in the same subforum that would make more sense to me, but it's not what the mods want. Also, if we weren't segregating the GBs we would hear less about PMKs GB not 'succeeding' complaints. Maybe some of them are failing because the colorways aren't popular enough? The whole point of the PMK (or any vendor-sponsored GB) was to lower the barriers to entry for new organizers and new ideas. Lowering that bar means anyone with an idea can give it a shot -- that means more failures. But it also means more activity, and more potential.

Quote from: Oobly
Adding an Interest Check section to the PMK website will not remedy this as it doesn't change the visibility of the Group Buys. It just puts them in two different places on the same site, with the same people seeing them as they would have before.

With respect, Oobly, I think the new IC section at PMK will help groupbuys hosted at PMK succeed. Before spending lots of time making font sets, etc, people can discuss what they want, crowd-source some inspiration for unique keycaps, etc. Some of that discussion will be happening at PMK instead of here at GH, and that's unfortunate -- but maybe it was inevitable? To me, the worst part of the policy is that not only does it feel completely arbitary, it looks as though it was designed to keep vendor-sponsored GBs down in order to 'promote' community GBs -- and not only is it not working, it makes us look petty.

I agree with your position Oobly, but PMK is doing fine and is likely to continue improving despite the policy. I do agree with some points made by others about the abundance of new groupbuys lately. There are so many going on at once -- timing has to play a factor in some of these failures. The failures are more likely a result of the success (lowered barriers) and the inexperience of some of the PMK organizers -- all things that will improve over time. Again, despite the policy.
« Last Edit: Fri, 08 August 2014, 11:50:12 by Krogenar »
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Offline DanielT

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Re: PMK Group Buys / Interest Checks
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 08 August 2014, 12:13:46 »
I think that this PMK experience is part of a learning curve. People learn from mistakes, and slowly the GB's will be more refined and popular.
Hidden or not in the end it depends of the skills and talent of the organizer.

Bahh it's hard for a non native English speaker sometimes to express himself ......  :p

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Offline Oobly

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Re: PMK Group Buys / Interest Checks
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 08 August 2014, 17:06:29 »
Very good points, everybody. Thank you for your input.

I am starting to get a better understanding for how Group Buys should go.

Bunny, any GB you run will hit MOQ  :) , so it's great to have your feedback since you've run so many successful GB's with very happy participants.

I agree about a GB needing to have a higher entry requirement than just playing with colours and posting to the PMK site. Maybe the IC section is the answer, but only if it also has the limitations Bunny suggests (only being allowed to go live once it hits a certain number of interest votes).

Ron (samwisekoi) is running the Nuclear Data Green GB through PMK, but he has also posted a thread in Group Buys which is largely what prompted me to start this thread. I'm also looking forward to the two possible future GB's Matt3o has teased us with (Retro SA and Midnight SA with possible contoured profile including shifts). That's a good example of doing something more than just coming up with an interesting colour scheme, he's trying to persuade SP to get shifts made in the right profile. It's gonna be time for some tall vintage goodness :)

I agree it's the GB organiser's responsibility to drum up interest and try to give the people a great set and to make sure there's enough momentum to make it work, but I find it sad to see some really nice sets not meeting MOQ. I guess if a colourway is really good it'll be kept alive and possibly be used in a more well organised GB in future.

Maybe not being in the GB section of the site isn't a major factor in whether a GB succeeds or fails, but it certainly can't hurt, IMHO. I hope in future the more interesting ones do get posted to Group Buys.

Maybe if a GH member starts a GB, they post in IC's here when they make a PMK IC and they post in GB's when the GB starts on the PMK site. I don't see any bad sides to that, but quite a lot of good ones. One of which is it will at least remove the "hiddenness" from being a factor for the failure of a GB.
« Last Edit: Fri, 08 August 2014, 17:12:23 by Oobly »
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: PMK Group Buys / Interest Checks
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 08 August 2014, 18:07:35 »
I brought up this question before when the issue of where group buy threads should be placed was being discussed.

How exactly do you people browse the forum? I don't know how people are missing threads that have active discussion. I must hit that UNREAD tab at the top of the page several hundred times a day.
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Offline absyrd

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Re: PMK Group Buys / Interest Checks
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 08 August 2014, 18:21:17 »
The market is just saturated with GBs nowadays. Everyone has X amount of money to spend, so a set REALLY needs to stand out and be different than the tons we have been inundated with recently.

Because of the point we are at as a community when it comes to GBs and the tendency here to collect, MOST people already have more than enough sets than they know what to do with. And, then, when they realize this they post to classified and new people with none just buy those.

I think the way to go is what [CTRL]ALT has been doing with the mini-buys. Short buy, nice looking and different set, #hype with possibility of extras, etc. We also have Ivan doing the big GMK buys, too, and that covers the desire for those thick ol' doubleshots.
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Offline Oobly

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Re: PMK Group Buys / Interest Checks
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 09 August 2014, 14:09:14 »
I brought up this question before when the issue of where group buy threads should be placed was being discussed.

How exactly do you people browse the forum? I don't know how people are missing threads that have active discussion. I must hit that UNREAD tab at the top of the page several hundred times a day.

I browse by category. I don't use UNREAD since there are a number of areas of the forums I just don't browse, so I don't want to filter through a bunch of posts I have no interest in.

I find it rather a hassle to go through Vendor forums - Signature Plastics for some group buys AND Group Buys for others. I'd rather see them all in one place. No other Group Buys end up stuck in other places of the site as far as I'm aware.
Buying more keycaps,
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but I must have them.

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: PMK Group Buys / Interest Checks
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 09 August 2014, 14:45:04 »
I brought up this question before when the issue of where group buy threads should be placed was being discussed.

How exactly do you people browse the forum? I don't know how people are missing threads that have active discussion. I must hit that UNREAD tab at the top of the page several hundred times a day.

I browse by category. I don't use UNREAD since there are a number of areas of the forums I just don't browse, so I don't want to filter through a bunch of posts I have no interest in.

I find it rather a hassle to go through Vendor forums - Signature Plastics for some group buys AND Group Buys for others. I'd rather see them all in one place. No other Group Buys end up stuck in other places of the site as far as I'm aware.

Well, I'm not here to tell anyone how they should browse the forum, but you're sure to miss things that way. You might miss some lively discussion happening, or if there is a desirable item that shows up in the marketplace, it will probably go fast, and by clicking on UNREAD, you may see the new thread as soon as it is posted.
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Offline Oobly

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Re: PMK Group Buys / Interest Checks
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 12 August 2014, 01:33:49 »
Well, regardless of which way of browsing the site is the best, I would expect that the majority of users (including guests and very casual members) do not use UNREAD and thus will not notice Group Buys posted only in this subforum. People have been known to join GH just to participate in a particular Group Buy that they found either from DT or browsing the Group Buys category.

In the words of Matt3o himself (and I hope he doesn't mind me posting this here): "it is pretty clear the importance of the main GB sub-forum for the success of the set. I hope from now on we could post the GBs here." - [GB] Nuclear Data Green SA Row 3 thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=61198.msg1433440#msg1433440


I have to say, though, that anyone who wants to start a GB should do their research first (check that there isn't another current, planned or previous set close to what they plan to do) and coordinate with all the other GB starters on GH to get the best design for their set (by doing Interest Checks properly and combining resources, like-minded people who really want the set to succeed) and the best timing for starting the IC and GB. Then putting in the work to drum up interest and adjust the set to make it really desirable to enough people.

Follow the example of Matt3o, samwisekoi, Bunnylake, IvanIvanovich, etc... and let's create some legendary keycap sets!
« Last Edit: Tue, 12 August 2014, 01:48:30 by Oobly »
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.