[IC] SA Symbiosis R2 - Group Buy Coming Soon

[Absinthe]

I am in on the current Massdrop GB for GMK Space Cadet, but my goodness I cannot wait for this to come out in SA! I am curious about GMK and this will be my first GMK set, so I am excited to try it and love the legends and colourway, but SA has my heart and to own that set will be magical.   

[fishinaspacesuit]

I'll be all over for the ergodox kit!

[bcbishop]

Beyond excited for this set, hhkbp2. Do you have a rough idea yet of when the GB will be moving forward? This year, or more likely next year? Thanks again for all of your hard work! 

[hhkbp2]

Beyond excited for this set, hhkbp2. Do you have a rough idea yet of when the GB will be moving forward? This year, or more likely next year? Thanks again for all of your hard work! 

This year. The GB date will be announced soon. Thanks for your support.

[yap68]

ASAP please. Still need to wait for almost a year until production.

And can you make a yellow spacebar kit?

[Windeh]

Beyond excited for this set, hhkbp2. Do you have a rough idea yet of when the GB will be moving forward? This year, or more likely next year? Thanks again for all of your hard work! 

This year. The GB date will be announced soon. Thanks for your support.

HYPE!! 

[wtoe]

Beyond excited for this set, hhkbp2. Do you have a rough idea yet of when the GB will be moving forward? This year, or more likely next year? Thanks again for all of your hard work! 

This year. The GB date will be announced soon. Thanks for your support.

Can't wait! (but have to )

[crykn]

Definitely interested, but I would like to see an option for grey function keys instead of blue for aesthetic reasons (unless you're intent on staying completely true to the Symbolics set inspiration). I'm specifically looking to mix the alphas from this set with the modifiers from another.

[hhkbp2]

Definitely interested, but I would like to see an option for grey function keys instead of blue for aesthetic reasons (unless you're intent on staying completely true to the Symbolics set inspiration). I'm specifically looking to mix the alphas from this set with the modifiers from another.

The kits are frozen for the coming GB. I'm afraid we could not have various combinations of colors/mods/options, so as to reduce the complexity for the GB. So grey function keys will not happen this time. For sure you could buy the alphas kit alone to do the mix as you like.

[Taques]

Beyond excited for this set, hhkbp2. Do you have a rough idea yet of when the GB will be moving forward? This year, or more likely next year? Thanks again for all of your hard work! 

This year. The GB date will be announced soon. Thanks for your support.

  can’t wait, thanks for all of your hard work on this set

[bcbishop]

This year. The GB date will be announced soon. Thanks for your support.

Amazing news. Thank you for bringing this to life, hhkbp2!

[cijanzen]

Agreed 100%. The CA66 would probably be my endgame board... it is a tough decision but I would hate to miss out since it is the final round. Then it would be hard to choose between a black (for SA Pulse and GMK Laser) or grey case (for SA Carbon and SA Symbiosis).

One thing is for certain though, sign me up for CADR, Spacebars, Cadet, and Choices! Or with any luck a bunch of CADR buyers will start clamoring for an R3 choices kit (hey, a guy can hope!). So excited 

It's out of the topic for this thread, but CA66 also caught my eyes. I was tinkering the idea to make a keyboard kit to bring back one of  Symbolics keyboards, I found CA66 when doing research. Its case has round front and back, straight sides just like Space-Cadet keyboard case(and many IBM old school keyboards' cases). Maybe I would get a CA66 in white color to match the coming Symbiosis keyset, since the Space-Cadet keyboard has a white case. 

The white would be amazing!

Also, do you know who the vendor(s) will be for this set?

[petamva]

Go, go, go!

[EightDiagram]

Symbiosis R2 and GMK Carbon R2 ...I might have to choose 

First world problems! )

[piercejenkins]

When is this gonna happen!? Take my money!!!!

[sgtpopwell]

I am absolutely in for this set!

[otanishock]

Intereted in a set as well. Would love to hear a date

[switchnollie]

The yellow's a nice touch, always thought yellow looked good with the gray & blue.

[enrique.aliaga]

This is gonna run via Kono Store. I’m in for a set!


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[cijanzen]

Really excited to see Kono as a vendor! Can’t wait for this to run.

[_ODIN_]

Intereted in a set as well. Would love to hear a date

me too. I have to prepare my wallet

[hhkbp2]

Big update!

The group buy is scheduled to launch in Kono Store at late September or early October. The exact day will be decided a few days ahead, so I will update when we have a specific date. If you want to get update, you could join the waitlist on the corresponding product webpage in Kono Store:

link

All the feedbacks have been taken in so far, although not every request is fulfilled. Currently we have locked the revision of kits as you could see below. There are a lot of changes since last update:

1. I created a new kit Cadet for Space-Cadet keyboard special legends, and revised the legends of Modifiers kit, NordeUK kit, etc. to reflect this change.
2. I added support to other Ortholinear keyboards, e.g. Preonic and renamed Planck kit to Ortho kit
3. I added more keys to support more keyboards, e.g. added R2 2u BACKSPACE for Pearl, added 3u spacebar for Minila, etc.
4. I revised the profile and layout for Choices kit, so now it could form a 2*2 cluster of hands and a straight column of roman I, II, III, IV for 65% keybards
5. I fine-tuned the vectors of Alphas, Choices, Novelties kits
6. I changed the Novelties enter-key lengend from Symbolics to Symbiosis, since guys in Symbolics company don't like it that way.
7. I changed the color codes from RAC, YCF to RA, YBP. Looking at the color cards from SP, the later ones have deeper colors, closer to what I have in mind and look better for novelties keys since they are brighter.
8. I added the missing R2 Z key for NorDeUK kit, Thanks to hansichen
9. Thanks to Thesiscamper. Now we have nice renders!


Here are all the kits for the coming GB. I will update them in the first post of this thread. And here are the renders.

Besides Kono Store, we will have other vendors to proxy orders for different areas: Zfrontier for China and Asia, and Mykeyboard for EU. Currently Kono Store is working on the prices. More renders are coming.

Please let me know if you have any question or feedback. It's a long way since the start of this IC and now we are finally one step away from the GB. I need to thank a lot of people during this journey(in alphabetic order): Laobao(KP), Oblotzky, packman86, Wei(KBDfans), York Chan and everyone gave his/her support or feedback for this project from GH, DT or anywhere. Special thanks to Andy(&y), astro, Hoq, lanyusea, prod and a lot of members in Chinese keyboard community. A big thanks to xblackdog for his permission and all his support.

Enjoy the renders:

[OracleKev]

At last!  VIM kit -- abomination!

[lanyusea]

[prod]

Shut up and take my money!

[otanishock]

Is the CADR kit offered with the idea of it being kind of an all-in-one kit for econimical reason?

[hhkbp2]

Is the CADR kit offered with the idea of it being kind of an all-in-one kit for econimical reason?

There are many people who still like flat profile, as you could know from the comments and the poll. So I keep the CADR kit to make them happy. It's not economical reason that leads to this kit. But I think it could be a good reason too? 

[Etherealsound]

Woah, that CADR kit so generous in  terms of compatibility.

[FearsomeCubedWarrior]

Is there any MOQ known yet? I'm in for alphas and 40s, but judging by MD SA Green Screen drop, where 40s didn't make it at all, I'm worried if Kono as a vendor will provide the certain level of publicity to attract enough customers.

[hhkbp2]

Is there any MOQ known yet? I'm in for alphas and 40s, but judging by MD SA Green Screen drop, where 40s didn't make it at all, I'm worried if Kono as a vendor will provide the certain level of publicity to attract enough customers.

I don't know the MOQ for 40s or the final price right now. 50 is the usual MOQ for 40s kit. 25 will do for SP but it's much more expensive. The 40s kit for Symbiosis R2 has a wide coverage and so many keys that it might be expensive. Kono is working on the prices now. And they usually order more after the GB is closed. It seems Andrew(from Kono) is quite confident that every kit is going to happen(so were the previous SA GBs on Kono). I guess you could just order without worry and see what will turn out. 

[zslane]

Oy veh. Another "Space Cadet" set where the color of the hands and roman numeral caps are blue instead of gray (GMK Space Cadet made this same mistake). I was about to give high praise for this set until I saw that. And the yellow keycaps are really out of band for this set as well, IMO. Further evidence that only 7bit cares about doing tribute sets correctly. I'm sure 99% of buyers won't care about that, but it disappoints me. I'm just glad I already have my Round 6 Space Cadet set. 

[cijanzen]

Oy veh. Another "Space Cadet" set where the color of the hands and roman numeral caps are blue instead of gray (GMK Space Cadet made this same mistake). I was about to give high praise for this set until I saw that. And the yellow keycaps are really out of band for this set as well, IMO. Further evidence that only 7bit cares about doing tribute sets correctly. I'm sure 99% of buyers won't care about that, but it disappoints me. I'm just glad I already have my Round 6 Space Cadet set. 

Hmm I respect your feedback as a very well established and knowledgeable member of the community but did you provide this feedback before things got too finalized? I haven’t looked through the post history to see if you had or not which is why I’m asking. I certainly don’t disagree with you on your critique but it seems a little late? 🤷🏼‍♂️

[hhkbp2]

Oy veh. Another "Space Cadet" set where the color of the hands and roman numeral caps are blue instead of gray (GMK Space Cadet made this same mistake). I was about to give high praise for this set until I saw that. And the yellow keycaps are really out of band for this set as well, IMO. Further evidence that only 7bit cares about doing tribute sets correctly. I'm sure 99% of buyers won't care about that, but it disappoints me. I'm just glad I already have my Round 6 Space Cadet set. 

Since most modifiers are blue, it easily turns out that the hands and roman numerals are blue to match the colors. For real tribute, it needs a special keyboard with layout similar to the Space-Cadet keyboard, having two extra columns on left right side to use the gray hands and roman numerals. But, how many people have such a keyboard layout? Do you? And how much tribute do we need if most users just use a regular modern keyboards in 104/87/60... layout? To embrace changes to modern keyboards? Or just stick strictly to what's only exist in the Space-Cadet keyborad? Where is the line in front of which we need to stop?

The yellow keycaps are accent keys, so that anyone don't like it could use all grey and blue keys. I could understand if someone says "There is only blue/grey/cream/black in the original Space-Cadet keyboard, we reject anything else and we don't need the other yellow, red and purple". But the later colors are also important since we try to combine more concepts into the design like Lisp Machine, Programming environment and graphic system, etc.

I don't understand it when you said "Further evidence that only 7bit cares about doing tribute sets correctly." First, I don't think sticking to only what's in Space-Cadet keyboard is the only way to do tribute. IMO, there is no correct or wrong, they are just different ideas and preferences. Second, 7bit did make blue hands and roman numeral keys in his run. And 7bit's runs didn't have Greek front printing legends, Space-Cadet legends like Greek, etc. How to understand only he's doing tribute "correctly" if so?

[dsaf]

...Further evidence that only 7bit cares about doing tribute sets correctly. I'm sure 99% of buyers won't care about that, but it disappoints me...

He managed to produce a set with front-facing prints just like the original had? Matt3o went the extra mile for SA Retro...

[dsaf]

The shade of the blue looks quite pleasant!

[hhkbp2]

Oy veh. Another "Space Cadet" set where the color of the hands and roman numeral caps are blue instead of gray (GMK Space Cadet made this same mistake). I was about to give high praise for this set until I saw that. And the yellow keycaps are really out of band for this set as well, IMO. Further evidence that only 7bit cares about doing tribute sets correctly. I'm sure 99% of buyers won't care about that, but it disappoints me. I'm just glad I already have my Round 6 Space Cadet set. 

Hmm I respect your feedback as a very well established and knowledgeable member of the community but did you provide this feedback before things got too finalized? I haven’t looked through the post history to see if you had or not which is why I’m asking. I certainly don’t disagree with you on your critique but it seems a little late? ‍♂️

If you look through the post, you will find out that zslane made a few comments back to the days when the IC started, and then disappeared for months. During this time, the kit for hands and roman numerals was removed but later re-added in a different style. It's more than 6 months ago this IC started and we had the yellow color accent keys since the very start. And now when we locked the kits right before the GB, zslane said "the yellow keycaps are really out of band". 

[Wetherbee]

This set needs a grey F-row to interest me.

I already have Symbiosis R1 and the all-blue F-row is the only disappointing aspect.

[hhkbp2]

...Further evidence that only 7bit cares about doing tribute sets correctly. I'm sure 99% of buyers won't care about that, but it disappoints me...

He managed to produce a set with front-facing prints just like the original had? Matt3o went the extra mile for SA Retro...

No. 7bit didn't, as I know so far.

I planned to give a try to add the front-printing Greek legends when I started this IC. But later I dropped this idea due to 1. It seems we don't have enough interest. Front-printing requires more work from SP and leads to higher price. 2. The Greek legends are in free hand writing style, which is not so neat or unified like these APL legends. I sketched out some of these Greek legends and found out they don't looks so nice for front-printing as I thought it would. The PETSCII legends on SA Retro are unified and look nice.

And I also tried to bring the keyboard(or layout) back, tinkering the idea to make a keyboard kit with full setup: PCB, Case/Plate, matching colors, etc. and high similarity to the Symbolics keyboard(Space-Cadet keyboard is one of them) shape and layout. I reached many persons for this idea shared them  the full keycaps layout on keyboard or kit configuration like:



But even if I managed to pull all these above, making a meme keyboard with that high similarity to happen in real, I would not call myself "do the tribute correctly" for sure. You know, if you take it down to the microscopic scale, there are always some difference or changes from the original Space-Cadet keyboard: legends, colors, keycap size, etc. It's impossible to make 100% copy for a historical keyboard, you have to live with these dissimilarities.

For example, some of you might have noticed these subtleties in legends, if you look carefully to A legend on the original Space-Cadet keyboard, the horizontal line in the middle is a bit lower than what's in normal font series.



And the A legend in 7bit's R6 is closer to SP's Gorton Modified font. It has higher horizontal line:



If you look closely to the legends I drew for SA Symbiosis, you will notice the A legend is closer to what's in Space-Cadet keyboard, rather than Gorton Modified font:



Some people may like former A legend in Gorton Modified font style, but if you're looking for similarity, or want to stick literally to what's on Space-Cadet keyboard, I think the later one wins. I'm not saying Symbiosis's alphas legends are superior than 7bit's by raising this example. You know, I never bring this up before. Actually I'm fine with either one. I'm just saying, differences and changes are usual. You can't make it 100% loyal to the old Space-Cadet keyboard. And some changes happen on purpose due to the design ideas. I always wish the so called Space-Cadet theme would evolve along the time, with new keyboard, new design, new profile or new idea, rather than it just stays 100% literal to what's on the original keyboard. It's just too bad if someone claims only the literal one are correct, and anything else is not. This is absolutism.

[cijanzen]

...Further evidence that only 7bit cares about doing tribute sets correctly. I'm sure 99% of buyers won't care about that, but it disappoints me...

He managed to produce a set with front-facing prints just like the original had? Matt3o went the extra mile for SA Retro...

No. 7bit didn't, as I know so far.

I planned to give a try to add the front-printing Greek legends when I started this IC. But later I dropped this idea due to 1. It seems we don't have enough interest. Front-printing requires more work from SP and leads to higher price. 2. The Greek legends are in free hand writing style, which is not so neat or unified like these APL legends. I sketched out some of these Greek legends and found out they don't looks so nice for front-printing as I thought it would. The PETSCII legends on SA Retro are unified and look nice.

And I also tried to bring the keyboard(or layout) back, tinkering the idea to make a keyboard kit with full setup: PCB, Case/Plate, matching colors, etc. and high similarity to the Symbolics keyboard(Space-Cadet keyboard is one of them) shape and layout. I reached many persons for this idea shared them  the full keycaps layout on keyboard or kit configuration like:

(Attachment Link)

But even if I managed to pull all these above, making a meme keyboard with that high similarity to happen in real, I would not call myself "do the tribute correctly" for sure. You know, if you take it down to the microscopic scale, there are always some difference or changes from the original Space-Cadet keyboard: legends, colors, keycap size, etc. It's impossible to make 100% copy for a historical keyboard, you have to live with these dissimilarities.

For example, some of you might have noticed these subtleties in legends, if you look carefully to A legend on the original Space-Cadet keyboard, the horizontal line in the middle is a bit lower than what's in normal font series.

(Attachment Link)

And the A legend in 7bit's R6 is closer to SP's Gorton Modified font. It has higher horizontal line:

(Attachment Link)

If you look closely to the legends I drew for SA Symbiosis, you will notice the A legend is closer to what's in Space-Cadet keyboard, rather than Gorton Modified font:

(Attachment Link)

Some people may like former A legend in Gorton Modified font style, but if you're looking for similarity, or want to stick literally to what's on Space-Cadet keyboard, I think the later one wins. I'm not saying Symbiosis's alphas legends are superior than 7bit's by raising this example. You know, I never bring this up before. Actually I'm fine with either one. I'm just saying, differences and changes are usual. You can't make it 100% loyal to the old Space-Cadet keyboard. And some changes happen on purpose due to the design ideas. I always wish the so called Space-Cadet theme would evolve along the time, with new keyboard, new design, new profile or new idea, rather than it just stays 100% literal to what's on the original keyboard. It's just too bad if someone claims only the literal one are correct, and anything else is not. This is absolutism.

At the end of the day it’s only one persons criticism. Is it still valid? Sure. It’s possibly not delivered in the best way though. Many others have given feedback that they are on board with what you’ve done here and I think you should be very proud of your work!

I for one will definitely picking up this set so thank you for all the hard work you’ve put into it. I think you’ve struck a fine balance between creating something new and a tribute to the original!

[OracleKev]

At the end of the day it’s only one persons criticism. Is it still valid? Sure. It’s possibly not delivered in the best way though. Many others have given feedback that they are on board with what you’ve done here and I think you should be very proud of your work!

I for one will definitely picking up this set so thank you for all the hard work you’ve put into it. I think you’ve struck a fine balance between creating something new and a tribute to the original!

Well put.

[yap68]

Yellow keycaps are a nice touch to the set and not a big fan of tribute thingy. This is my feedback.

Have been watching this set from day 1 and really appreciated all the effort you have put on it. Thanks man!

[Taques]

I was totally expecting this to run next year, what a great surprise! Better get some funds in order.

[gbchk]

I wouldn't take his criticism too seriously...it sounds like the only thing that would make him happy is an actual original SC keyboard, if he's such a purist. 7bit's caps have just as many inconsistencies as any other "tribute."

[mrkevint]

I wouldn't take his criticism too seriously...it sounds like the only thing that would make him happy is an actual original SC keyboard, if he's such a purist. 7bit's caps have just as many inconsistencies as any other "tribute."

I agree... to me, it also reads a little bit salty. Space Cadet will no longer be "exclusive" to people who have 7bit's key sets (R3 Symbiosis notwithstanding).

Thank you for making Space Cadet available to a larger audience. I will definitely be participating! 

[LightningXI]

At least we don't have to wait for 3 years to get these.

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[Nigolski]

At least we don't have to wait for 3 years to get these.

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 )

[bcbishop]

I find this notion of down-to-the-key accurate "tribute" sets to be a little... odd? Unless one is going for a full-on clone, then a set of keycaps has to be about balancing a recreation of the keys that inspired the set vs. the aesthetics, wants, and needs of modern-day keyboards. Blue roman numeral keys will look better on the keyboard I plan on using this set for than grey keys would, and I appreciate that this larger creative decision has been made. (I'm sure it's exactly why the recent GMK run did the exact same thing.)

Opinions are opinions. Everybody's got one, and that's fine. But for me personally? I thank you, hhkbp2, for all of your hard work in making this GB happen. I think in this thread you have proven to be extremely helpful, concerned with making sure the community is happy with the end product, and in general been a solid human being that treats others with respect and thoughtful consideration.

I am beyond thrilled to support you by taking part in this GB.

[helix999]

I thank you, hhkbp2, for all of your hard work in making this GB happen. I think in this thread you have proven to be extremely helpful, concerned with making sure the community is happy with the end product, and in general been a solid human being that treats others with respect and thoughtful consideration.

Exactly this. I really don't know what's involved in making a GB like this happen but I know it can't be easy. I'm just happy to have the chance to finally own this set. Great work!

[dsaf]

...

As a hopeful but careful NorDeUk buyer I need to ask: how will underfunded kits be handled by MyKeyboard? Will I be able to pull out if a target is not met?

[Lisinge]

I would also like to express a thank you to hhkbp2 for putting in so much work into this set. And being so responsive and helpful to us all.