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Offline TheProfosist

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« Reply #50 on: Tue, 25 October 2011, 02:13:20 »
Quote from: ishtob;438723
yup basically...

im going to keep tweeking around see if i can get the teensy to be able to be soldered straight onto the underside of the board or at the space under the spacebar (gives us access to that button on the topside... but not sure if its useful, and we would also need to somehow route the USB out to the back too...)
That would be great. the USB thing shouldnt be too hard to do. you may be able to desolder the one thats on there and get something that would mount right on the casing. if not modify a short mini usb cable and find a way to get some soft of female end to mound on the case.

The switches and the case seem to be the most costly.

Quote from: ishtob;438725
just checked price for more quanitity... its going to be pretty much splitting up that $10 shipping... unless we can get ALOT of people

well ill get to talking to them about the pcb then right away at least.

Offline TheProfosist

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« Reply #51 on: Tue, 25 October 2011, 07:38:51 »
Quote from: ishtob;438725
just checked price for more quanitity... its going to be pretty much splitting up that $10 shipping... unless we can get ALOT of people
could you probably get a quote on a case I can probably secure at a min 3 more orders than mys self.

Offline bpiphany

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« Reply #52 on: Tue, 25 October 2011, 07:48:36 »
I took the liberty to throw together a DOX-PCB using my KiCAD libraries. It would be a good starting point for any keyboard design. It was an easy job considering I had a larger board with more or less the same layout done already. Just had to clean everything up a bit...
I would really recommend adding the controller somewhere on the PCB as well. This saves some messy wiring...

Offline Dox

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« Reply #53 on: Tue, 25 October 2011, 09:32:39 »
Quote from: ishtob;438723
yup basically...
im going to keep tweeking around see if i can get the teensy to be able to be soldered straight onto the underside of the board or at the space under the spacebar (gives us access to that button on the topside... but not sure if its useful, and we would also need to somehow route the USB out to the back too...)

I wanted to place the teensy under the spacebar too but I realized that it would make the keyboard much higher.

Quote from: PrinsValium;438791
I took the liberty to throw together a DOX-PCB using my KiCAD libraries. It would be a good starting point for any keyboard design. It was an easy job considering I had a larger board with more or less the same layout done already. Just had to clean everything up a bit...
I would really recommend adding the controller somewhere on the PCB as well. This saves some messy wiring...

Nice PV! As you can see the controller is hard to fit in a board that small with buttons everywhere. Do you have any idea where it could be installed?
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Offline bpiphany

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« Reply #54 on: Tue, 25 October 2011, 09:40:27 »
Quote from: Dox;438829
I wanted to place the teensy under the spacebar too but I realized that it would make the keyboard much higher.

Nice PV! As you can see the controller is hard to fit in a board that small with buttons everywhere. Do you have any idea where it could be installed?

Sort of, I did it like this. It is not optimal to have the connector at the edge like that when using a case of course. But it should be possible to orient it in other ways. It's a bit tinkery but it works. The only big problem is that the switches it overlaps won't be easily removable.

Offline Dox

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« Reply #55 on: Tue, 25 October 2011, 17:41:02 »
Quote from: PrinsValium;438840
Sort of, I did it like this. It is not optimal to have the connector at the edge like that when using a case of course. But it should be possible to orient it in other ways. It's a bit tinkery but it works. The only big problem is that the switches it overlaps won't be easily removable.

Oh yeah, I remember now, the surface mounted trick.
Do you have a way to import some points from a cad drawing (dwg, dxf) to KiCAD to place some vias at a specific position? I ask this because I will soon design the PCBs for my split ergo keyboard and that would make my task much more easy.
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Offline alaricljs

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« Reply #56 on: Tue, 25 October 2011, 18:02:18 »
What is your reason for having vias in a particular location?

Aside from that I have found no way with KiCad to do that sort of thing.  You would need to have an origin on the CAD drawing that directly correlates to an origin on your PCB and then transfer the coordinates manually by measure.
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Offline Dox

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« Reply #57 on: Tue, 25 October 2011, 18:12:09 »
The reason is that I already have a 3d model with all the components placed and I want to replicate the exact location of the components on the PCB so it will fit in the case.
If there is no way to do this, I'll do the origin correlation method.
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Offline alaricljs

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« Reply #58 on: Tue, 25 October 2011, 18:19:03 »
Hrm... As long as in KiCad you put in all the components then the auto-router will route around them... so any holes, all the switches, connectors diodes and so on.  There are also settings for minimum safe distance near a hole, another trace, and so forth.
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Offline TheProfosist

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« Reply #59 on: Tue, 25 October 2011, 19:36:34 »
would it be poaaible to find a way to solder this right to the board and avoid all of that wiring? http://tinyurl.com/bqzjxo

Offline alaricljs

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« Reply #60 on: Tue, 25 October 2011, 20:19:24 »
That's what's being discussed... in my own design I do away with the standoff portion of the pins, although I haven't had the chance to test that yet I see no reason it wouldn't work.  This would lessen the stack height of the PCBs.  In the case of the Dox it's going to be a difficult time due to there being no unoccupied space on both sides of the PCB.
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Offline Dox

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« Reply #61 on: Tue, 25 October 2011, 20:31:49 »
Quote from: alaricljs;439427
That's what's being discussed... in my own design I do away with the standoff portion of the pins, although I haven't had the chance to test that yet I see no reason it wouldn't work.  This would lessen the stack height of the PCBs.  In the case of the Dox it's going to be a difficult time due to there being no unoccupied space on both sides of the PCB.
Yeah that was my plan too for my next design I think that should be possible. As you said, the problem with the doxkb is that there is no space to mount it (not surface soldered), even with the reduced stack height I don't think that if would fit under the spacebar.
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Offline TheProfosist

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« Reply #62 on: Tue, 25 October 2011, 20:33:22 »
yea I wouldnt worry about puuting it under the spacebar I would just want to solder it directly to the board. would that eliminate all the wires?

Offline alaricljs

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« Reply #63 on: Tue, 25 October 2011, 20:55:18 »
The teensy will definitely not fit under the space bar.  You could fit the components there if you wanted to SMD solder and not have the really nice half-k boot loader.

Redoing the PCB to include the controller on-board would mean that traces for all the switch connections would be on the PCB and would eliminate the wires.  In order to do this without losing your mind or paying an arm and a leg it would need to be a double sided PCB.
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Offline bpiphany

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« Reply #64 on: Tue, 25 October 2011, 21:43:56 »
Next time I'm designing a keyboard I think I will look into programming the AVR from scratch myself (and how to solder the sucker in there in the first place...). This would also allow me to use a less powerful AVR if I would want to, or more powerful of course =) And the chips are truly surface mounted, and [SIZE=0]tiny![/SIZE], it would fit anywhere...

Using a couple of multiplexers/demultiplexers the number of needed pins drops significantly too. I found that the HHKB has a smart solution. It uses a binary-to-decimal decoder chip for the supplying the rows. It has 4 input pins (4 output pins required from the controller) to take a 4-bit binary number. Depending on this binary number it lights up 1 out of 10 output pins supplying 10 rows, they are then interleaved to give 5 actual rows on the PCB layout. An 8 to one channel demultiplexer for the columns would requires 4 more controller pins (1 as the input to the controller and 3 for selecting column). So in total 8 controller pins for a total of 8×10 key positions.

I don't know if the Teensy even fits Between a plate and the PCB. If it does it would be possible to put it under the space bar. This would require the Filco style stabilizers, since the stabilizer wire will get in the way with a cheery one. And Filco style requires a mounting plate.

I would really recommend getting two-sided PCBs with solder masks and everything. With the all the cheapest choices they aren't almost any more expensive at pcbwing than what DOX paid for his (and there probably are other places in the same price segment). Shipping might be more from China though I guess.

Edit: Also I managed to hook the Teensy into my PCB on that square matrix layout prototype, using only 30 or so jumpers. The routing do require some hair pulling and teeth gnashing though =P
« Last Edit: Tue, 25 October 2011, 21:49:39 by PrinsValium »

Offline TheProfosist

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« Reply #65 on: Tue, 25 October 2011, 21:53:50 »
so though it would be a pain to make the pcb would it be anymore expensive to do the dual sided PCB. If it not much more I think it would be worth it to eliminate the wiring would anyone be up to the task of designing the pcb?

Offline alaricljs

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« Reply #66 on: Tue, 25 October 2011, 23:09:02 »
Doh... Prins is right, if you "surface mount" the teensy then it should fit under the plate under the space bar... I really need more sleep and less OT... wait what am I saying?  I love the OT money.  Think I need to figure out how to get paid OT for sleeping!

Dual layer PCBs are not significantly more expensive in reasonable quantities, one-offs and such are probably cheaper, tho I admit not checking :)
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Offline ishtob

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« Reply #67 on: Wed, 26 October 2011, 00:46:00 »
done with adding teensy to the PCB:


i was going to try to have the usb come out the back, but staggered MX switches are impossible to work around

Offline TheProfosist

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« Reply #68 on: Wed, 26 October 2011, 01:25:12 »
Quote from: ishtob;439565
done with adding teensy to the PCB:
Show Image


i was going to try to have the usb come out the back, but staggered MX switches are impossible to work around
awesome. is it coming out of the left then would this cable work to take pressure off and make it head back?

also I assume that you would put all of the switches on then put on the teensy?

Offline ishtob

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« Reply #69 on: Wed, 26 October 2011, 07:06:34 »
aw shoot i just noticed the leads are flipped around on this -___-

yes, switches should go first. actually thinking of it, cable coming out the side is better for me since i keyboard for my laptop when im at school
« Last Edit: Wed, 26 October 2011, 07:09:42 by ishtob »

Offline ishtob

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« Reply #70 on: Wed, 26 October 2011, 09:28:32 »
there we go, done. The teensy will now be int eh right orientation

can someone check my layout to see if I'm doing this right? I have actually no idea what I'm doing... just connecting the sections like its a grid

Offline ishtob

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« Reply #71 on: Wed, 26 October 2011, 12:38:07 »
added more holes in case people had pulled MX switches from PCB mounted keyboards (like me... heh)

here it is:


anyone knows where to find the measurements for the holes for poker's space bar stabilizers?

Offline bpiphany

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« Reply #72 on: Wed, 26 October 2011, 13:32:30 »
Quote from: alaricljs;439528
Doh... Prins is right, if you "surface mount" the teensy then it should fit under the plate under the space bar... I really need more sleep and less OT... wait what am I saying?  I love the OT money.  Think I need to figure out how to get paid OT for sleeping!
Firefighting, in a quite town... Did you check if the Teensy fits there? I have no idea or possibility to check at the moment. Seems like it could get tight =P

Quote from: alaricljs;439528
Dual layer PCBs are not significantly more expensive in reasonable quantities, one-offs and such are probably cheaper, tho I admit not checking :)

11.1"×3.6" double sided board with solder masks on both sides and silkscreen only on one side = $56 per board @ 2 boards (RoHS compliant = $65). Plus shipping. pcbwing.com


Edit: A new version with the ATmega32U4 mounted directly on the keyboard PCB, including the same surrounding components as on the Teensy. I only autorouted it. It probably wouldn't hurt to make some of the tracks wider. The crystal also has the wrong footprint, but it is only a quick prototype.
« Last Edit: Wed, 26 October 2011, 13:47:37 by PrinsValium »

Offline alaricljs

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« Reply #73 on: Wed, 26 October 2011, 14:18:17 »
Mmmm, the USB connector would have to be removed, but you would have to do that anyway because no usb cable ever would fit in there.
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Offline ishtob

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« Reply #74 on: Wed, 26 October 2011, 15:47:21 »
you can always fit a pcb mounted usb connector and use wires to hook that up in what ever direction or place you'd like.

Offline ishtob

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« Reply #75 on: Wed, 26 October 2011, 20:28:30 »
Okay, cleaned up the layout a bit. Also added holes since i have a broken poker keyboard with a good case laying around that i was planning to throw this board into. here it is:

Offline ishtob

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« Reply #76 on: Wed, 26 October 2011, 20:31:29 »
Pris: yes i just measured the teensy i got here and the custom component should be right. I have a caliper and it matched up +/- 0.05mm so it should be fine.

Prof: I'm going to go ahead and just order 2 for myself for now, I want to make sure it works before we all order a messed up board :P i'll post the file up after I test it out in person

Offline TheProfosist

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« Reply #77 on: Wed, 26 October 2011, 22:10:46 »
sounds great. I would have to have everyone getting bad boards.

Offline ishtob

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« Reply #78 on: Wed, 26 October 2011, 22:50:19 »
hey DOX: any reason why your col12 is after col13 on your code?

Offline Dox

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« Reply #79 on: Wed, 26 October 2011, 22:54:48 »
Yeah that's because this was an early iteration of the firmware. I can post the up to date firmware tomorrow.

Edit: You can find both firmwares on my github https://github.com/doxkb
« Last Edit: Wed, 26 October 2011, 22:57:27 by Dox »
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Offline ishtob

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« Reply #80 on: Wed, 26 October 2011, 23:00:54 »
cool i'll take a look, I think i have my firmware setup, now just need to wait for the PCB and diodes for come in.

Offline TheProfosist

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« Reply #81 on: Thu, 27 October 2011, 01:36:57 »
If you could do a step by step when putting this together it would be great. I have the idea down but for others (and my friends) it would be great.


Also is anyone willing to make firmware for my layout? I believe you would have to use the firmware mentioned here for the media keys to work. I have also added mouse buttons to the layout because its is possible due to that firmware and I will update the layout that I have up currently to have mouse buttons:



I would like the mouse buttons to be Z: mouse 2 (right click), X: mouse 3 (middle click), C: mouse 1 (left click), V: mouse 4 (back), and F: mouse 5 (forward).

Offline ishtob

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« Reply #82 on: Thu, 27 October 2011, 07:54:03 »
prof i can do the layout for you once i figure out how to modify dox's layout.

Dox: can you explain how your layers work? it seems that you are using the semicolon to activate another layer?

Offline TheProfosist

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« Reply #83 on: Thu, 27 October 2011, 08:44:50 »
Quote from: ishtob;440408
prof i can do the layout for you once i figure out how to modify dox's layout.

Dox: can you explain how your layers work? it seems that you are using the semicolon to activate another layer?
thanks much sorry that I cant be of more help besides just coming up with ideas.

Offline ishtob

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« Reply #84 on: Thu, 27 October 2011, 08:57:57 »
can't seem to find a how to add media keys other than vol up/down and mute

>.< sorry i'm a pharmacy student.. not a compsci major so this is like trying to decipher latin

Offline TheProfosist

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« Reply #85 on: Thu, 27 October 2011, 09:02:33 »
Quote from: ishtob;440431
can't seem to find a how to add media keys other than vol up/down and mute

>.< sorry i'm a pharmacy student.. not a compsci major so this is like trying to decipher latin
lol I may be a bit more qualified I havnt taken a look yet also did you grab the firmware mentioned here? I know a link isnt provided to it...

Offline Dox

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« Reply #86 on: Thu, 27 October 2011, 09:09:29 »
Quote from: ishtob;440408
prof i can do the layout for you once i figure out how to modify dox's layout.

Dox: can you explain how your layers work? it seems that you are using the semicolon to activate another layer?
I guess you are using hasu's firmware. Yes the semicolon is a "passive" function key. If you press it normally, it will work just as expected but if you hold it and press other keys, it switch to the fn layer.
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Offline TheProfosist

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« Reply #87 on: Thu, 27 October 2011, 09:12:35 »
Quote from: Dox;440438
I guess you are using hasu's firmware. Yes the semicolon is a "passive" function key. If you press it normally, it will work just as expected but if you hold it and press other keys, it switch to the fn layer.
Interesting is that the only way to implement a Fn key?

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« Reply #88 on: Thu, 27 October 2011, 09:16:57 »
ishtob,

See usb_keycodes.h, you will find keycodes for media keys.

Semicolon works as Fn key and normal key. You can use a normal key as Fn key, but this is a bit confusing and imposes some bug/problem.
I'm using Semicolon  to switch to mousekey layer happily, but other might find this irritating.

Offline TheProfosist

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« Reply #89 on: Thu, 27 October 2011, 09:18:35 »
Quote from: hasu;440441
ishtob,

See usb_keycodes.h, you will find keycodes for media keys.

Semicolon works as Fn key and normal key. You can use a normal key as Fn key, but this is a bit confusing and imposes some bug/problem.
I'm using Semicolon  to switch to mousekey layer happily, but other might find this irritating.
could you use the System Request key to switch layers it doesnt have a use anyway as a normal key.

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« Reply #90 on: Thu, 27 October 2011, 09:41:15 »
does these layers stay after we release the keys or does it return to layer 1 (defualt layer)

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« Reply #91 on: Thu, 27 October 2011, 09:47:00 »
It is a momentary, layer switching is just valid while Fn key pressed.
My firmware has no toggle feature for layer switching at this time.

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« Reply #92 on: Thu, 27 October 2011, 09:52:59 »
ok cool thanks...

and dox, to load hasu's firmware do I load config.h in the DoxKB folder? or do i use another .h file

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« Reply #93 on: Thu, 27 October 2011, 11:20:20 »
Quote from: hasu;440456
It is a momentary, layer switching is just valid while Fn key pressed.
My firmware has no toggle feature for layer switching at this time.

It kinda have a toggle feature. You have to hold the 2 shifts and press the layer number to witch you want to switch. Ex: LShift+RShift+2 = Layer 2.
You have to be, careful as you need at least one number on your fn layer to be able to switch back to the normal layout.

Quote from: ishtob;440458
ok cool thanks...

and dox, to load hasu's firmware do I load config.h in the DoxKB folder? or do i use another .h file

To load the formware you have to "make" in the macway folder and load the maxway.hex with the teensy loader.
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Offline ishtob

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« Reply #94 on: Thu, 27 October 2011, 11:29:35 »
Quote from: Dox;440507
To load the formware you have to "make" in the macway folder and load the maxway.hex with the teensy loader.

how do I do that? i'm a bit lost... do i do this in terminal or something?

Offline Dox

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« Reply #95 on: Thu, 27 October 2011, 11:32:07 »
Yeah you have to build the firmware. See here.
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Offline ishtob

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« Reply #96 on: Thu, 27 October 2011, 12:41:13 »
ok, thanks, i'll give it a try when i get home

Offline TheProfosist

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« Reply #97 on: Thu, 27 October 2011, 16:56:06 »
one thing to note about my layout is that Esc should be on the default layer and that ` and ~ should be on the secondary layer.

Offline ishtob

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« Reply #98 on: Thu, 27 October 2011, 22:27:02 »
yup thats how i want it too profosist.
okay i got my firmware setup... soon as i get the board and have it all setup and tested i'll do one for your layout.

I think i might stick to 2 layers for now and leave the rest of the codes in there for now.

Offline TheProfosist

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« Reply #99 on: Thu, 27 October 2011, 23:14:23 »
Quote from: ishtob;440878
yup thats how i want it too profosist.
okay i got my firmware setup... soon as i get the board and have it all setup and tested i'll do one for your layout.

I think i might stick to 2 layers for now and leave the rest of the codes in there for now.
two layers is all I need were you able to use the system request key to do the layer switching?