Author Topic: Dvorak vs. Colemak  (Read 57831 times)

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Offline ranunky

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Dvorak vs. Colemak
« on: Wed, 28 November 2012, 19:48:02 »
Which is better?

Dvorak:
All the vowels are on the left therefore faster

Colemak:
zxcv unchanged for copy & paste

BUT: Autohotkey can allow *all* QWERTY to be used with Dvorak. Has Colemak any recourse?

Offline Burz

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 28 November 2012, 23:40:44 »
Has Colemak any recourse?
Yes... Autohotkey.  :)

I have never used Dvorak, but the relative merits of different layouts have gotten a lot of recent attention on sites like carpalx and colemak.com. According to this page Dvorak requires over 13% more effort than Colemak.
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Offline metalliqaz

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 28 November 2012, 23:43:43 »
If I was going to learn a new one, I'd choose Colemak

Offline WhiteFireDragon

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 29 November 2012, 01:24:44 »
I learned Dvorak already, but decided that Colemak has all the efficiencies of Dvorak, and then some. I'm basically going to learn Colemak again because I need the basic hotkeys in QWERTY.

Offline jwaz

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Offline davkol

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 29 November 2012, 03:42:26 »
Dvorak = hand alternation. I hate alternation. Therefore, I use Colemak. Rolls are much sexier.

Offline philpirj

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 29 November 2012, 04:05:08 »

Offline ranunky

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 29 November 2012, 09:38:11 »
I'm basically going to learn Colemak again because I need the basic hotkeys in QWERTY.

Quote
BUT: Autohotkey can allow *all* QWERTY to be used with Dvorak. Has Colemak any recourse?

Download and install Autohotkey. http://www.autohotkey.com/
Set the keyboard to QWERTY in Windows, and use this script to change to Dvorak.  It swaps all the keys but leaves all the shortcuts it the same place.
(Post #1 on that thread will work, but the post I linked to, post #16 by 'Igor' works better). The great thing about this script is that you can compile it as an exe and carry it on a USB drive and run it on any computer you want.

Offline Skull_Angel

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 29 November 2012, 13:48:20 »
Check this out http://www.workmanlayout.com/blog/

That's an interesting layout and read. I've never thought about using other layouts seriously, but I am interested in others' thoughts.

Offline prpnightmare

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 29 November 2012, 15:12:08 »
I used Colemak over the summer for awhile and really liked it. Having zxcv in the same place was nice, and my hands didn't feel as tired after typing (though I was only typing around 20-30wpm with Colemak compared to 60wpm under QWERTY so the speed issue could've definitely factored in). I foolishly fell back into my old QWERTY ways though :( I swear I'll stick with it next time though!

Offline TheQsanity

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 29 November 2012, 23:40:46 »
SmallFry! <3

Offline TotalChaos

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 30 November 2012, 03:35:55 »
Why does the workman guy keep going on and on about his wrist moving when typing G or H on qwerty?

Wrist moving?  My wrist sits in the same place when I strike G or H.  My fingers do the moving.  He keeps talking about hand shifting.  What hand shifting?  Why are his hands moving all over the keyboard???
My hands stay in the same place unless reaching for the numbers or }] or Scroll Lock or cursor keys.

Sure, internally there is a tiny bit of pressure in my wrist when striking G or H but there is always pressure in your wrist no matter what key you press.

This Workman guy either has very very very tiny hands or he has tendonitis which he got from something else other than pressing G and H.

As for me, I am in horrible pain and I want more keys in between G and H.
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Offline Burz

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 30 November 2012, 12:50:19 »
Shai had a rebuttal of sorts to the Workman concept on the Colemak forum.

While I agree with the idea of enhancing the weighting for the middle fingers, that is the only thing of value that I see in Workman. Telling people they need to move their hands laterally to press G and H positions wasn't too bright.
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Offline dorkvader

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 02 December 2012, 02:07:45 »
I asked myself this very question, when I picked. I had decided that I didn't like QWERTY, and needed a new layout (in 2007). Eventually, I went with Dvorak, as it's nearly the same efficiency as colemak, and it's ideologically completely different than QWERTY. Although Colemak tests out pretty well for the numbers, I don't like how it's based on QWERTY, which I see as flawed. I wanted something new, not just a polishing of the corrupt institution.

Although keeping the ZXCV seems to have little impact on the efficiency or comfort of a layout, I wonder that the placement of the punctuation marks has an impact. This is an aspect of Dvorak that is oft-overlooked (and indeed oft-overlooked in many optimized layouts). They put their tests on a word list, and often ignore puncuation. I believe that moving them is probably beneficial, and thus, I like Dvorak.

Dvorak also has excellent OS support, which is useful. I'd never be allowed to install colemak at work, but they are okay with me switching the keyboard layout on my account with Dvorak. Even android 4.1 (Jellybean) has Dvorak support, though right now I'm putting up with QWERTY until ATT rolls out an update for my phone.

Offline davkol

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 02 December 2012, 02:41:44 »
I asked myself this very question, when I picked. I had decided that I didn't like QWERTY, and needed a new layout (in 2007). Eventually, I went with Dvorak, as it's nearly the same efficiency as colemak, and it's ideologically completely different than QWERTY. Although Colemak tests out pretty well for the numbers, I don't like how it's based on QWERTY, which I see as flawed. I wanted something new, not just a polishing of the corrupt institution.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Although keeping the ZXCV seems to have little impact on the efficiency or comfort of a layout, I wonder that the placement of the punctuation marks has an impact. This is an aspect of Dvorak that is oft-overlooked (and indeed oft-overlooked in many optimized layouts). They put their tests on a word list, and often ignore puncuation. I believe that moving them is probably beneficial, and thus, I like Dvorak.
This might be a good point. However, I've checked the Czech National Corpus, and punctuation isn't all that common. Sure, it's in every sentence, but that's it. I'm more worried about parenthesis, correct typographic symbols etc., which led me to creation of an extra layer that moves those symbols to better positions — for me, thumb modifier + key close to home row combos are easier than keys all over the place.

Dvorak also has excellent OS support, which is useful. I'd never be allowed to install colemak at work, but they are okay with me switching the keyboard layout on my account with Dvorak. Even android 4.1 (Jellybean) has Dvorak support, though right now I'm putting up with QWERTY until ATT rolls out an update for my phone.
Actually, I don't see any reason to use Dvorak on compact devices except if I wanted to type with both thumbs _only_. Because of alternation, obviously. I wonder why OPTI isn't more popular.

Offline linuxid10t

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 09 December 2012, 04:12:41 »
Which is better?

Dvorak:
All the vowels are on the left therefore faster

Colemak:
zxcv unchanged for copy & paste

BUT: Autohotkey can allow *all* QWERTY to be used with Dvorak. Has Colemak any recourse?

I've been trying out both, and I can say good things about each.  Colemak is easier coming from QWERTY and seems a good middle of the road.  I'd like to think of it as QWERTY fixed.

Offline daerid

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 09 December 2012, 16:09:04 »
Why does the workman guy keep going on and on about his wrist moving when typing G or H on qwerty?

Wrist moving?  My wrist sits in the same place when I strike G or H.  My fingers do the moving.  He keeps talking about hand shifting.  What hand shifting?  Why are his hands moving all over the keyboard???
My hands stay in the same place unless reaching for the numbers or }] or Scroll Lock or cursor keys.

Sure, internally there is a tiny bit of pressure in my wrist when striking G or H but there is always pressure in your wrist no matter what key you press.

This Workman guy either has very very very tiny hands or he has tendonitis which he got from something else other than pressing G and H.

As for me, I am in horrible pain and I want more keys in between G and H.

Probably a combination of small hands and poor typing technique. I have really long fingers, which is probably why my hands have never hurt after 15 years of typing day in and day out. I type completely relaxed, and can reach pretty much every key without moving my palms at all, except for things like R Control and BackSpace.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 09 December 2012, 16:31:11 »
Having type with QWERTY since Nixon was president, I am pretty well ingrained in the old school.

I am intrigued with several ideas bouncing around, and would go to Colemak if I was living in isolation.

However, since I maintain multiple computers for multiple people, I have to keep my head in their game, at least some of the time. It is bad enough having to work on garbage keyboards!


PS - I don't know why some people complain bout staggered keys - I think that it is helpful for avoiding bogus extra characters.
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Offline davkol

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 09 December 2012, 16:43:26 »
PS - I don't know why some people complain bout staggered keys - I think that it is helpful for avoiding bogus extra characters.
Have you ever used a matrix keyboard? B and Y are much easier to reach.

Offline TotalChaos

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 09 December 2012, 18:00:42 »
Ok I just did a BY test with my horribly painful hands on my QWERTY MX REDs.  (Of course my arms are frozen solid, soaking in dental anesthetic all day long and my bloodstream is packed with all kinds of drugs).

Y: no problem
B: ow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Trying to type B without moving my wrist just aint happening.  If I just lift all fingers up and rotate my wrist a bit then b is no problem to just type it here or there.  Obviously if I typed a lot it might become a problem but I can only type a maximum of 1% of a random geekhacker before my pain does me in.  So I only type tiny amounts.

This wrist-rotate I do is very small.  It would be even less if I did it for GH.  But this makes me think that the guy who cooked up Workman has nerve problems like me.  Or maybe he has tendonitis in his G & H fingers or maybe some type of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome.  Or something.

The finger you use to type H would be your mouse-button finger if you are right handed.  So he might have tendonitis in that finger and the reason he has it in both hands is from Mirror-Image pain.  Yes mirror-image pain is a real thing and common enough to have been studied and documented.  I have it too so I know its real.
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Offline Deverica Wolf

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 10 December 2012, 00:33:48 »
I chose Colemak as I didn't want to take so much time to switch over as Colemak took me three weeks anyway! Those writing tests told me Colemak was the right one for me. I can't really say I like it better than QWERTY. I don't think I am faster, and I never really had any discomfort. But I am very happy my brain was able to make the switch and will not go back ever. It is very comfortable to type and fun with Colemak.  :)
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Offline linuxid10t

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 10 December 2012, 05:40:20 »
I chose Colemak as I didn't want to take so much time to switch over as Colemak took me three weeks anyway! Those writing tests told me Colemak was the right one for me. I can't really say I like it better than QWERTY. I don't think I am faster, and I never really had any discomfort. But I am very happy my brain was able to make the switch and will not go back ever. It is very comfortable to type and fun with Colemak.  :)

I don't feel the need to pound the keyboard anymore and it is starting to get pretty natural for me and I've only been using it for a couple of days.  The biggest tangible difference to me seems to be how much less I move my hands.

Offline pyro

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 10 December 2012, 06:28:48 »
If you don't code and only ever type in english (and don't want to get into the whole remapping characters thing), you should probably go with Colemak.

I think most of the programmers really appreciate the upper row punctuation placement on Dvorak and the compatability with VIM.

And although I completely unlearned QWERTY when I switched to Dvorak, it only took about 1 day of regular use to relearn QWERTY one year later and it's no issue to keep the two separate, so I don't see switching to QWERTY from time to time as a real problem.

Just keep in mind you won't become a faster typist by using an ergonomic layout, switching is all about comfort.

Offline TotalChaos

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 10 December 2012, 12:03:03 »
But I am very happy my brain was able to make the switch and will not go back ever. It is very comfortable to type and fun with Colemak.  :)
I love a story with a happy ending.  Yay! :)


As for me, I am in wayyyy to much pain to learn a new format so I am stuck with qwerty forever... at least until I can build myself a proper ergonomic keyboard... which will prob take forever...  I feel stuck in a loop...
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Offline Burz

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 10 December 2012, 12:59:15 »
As for me, I am in wayyyy to much pain to learn a new format so I am stuck with qwerty forever... at least until I can build myself a proper ergonomic keyboard... which will prob take forever...  I feel stuck in a loop...

Awww, go ahead... print the image above, try it out for an hour when you don't have any pressing work to do. If you start slowly there should be no additional pain... Colemak is designed to relieve stress.
:) :) :)
Matias Mini QuietPro  \\ Dell AT101W - Black ALPS  \\ SIIG MiniTouch x2 White XM - Monterey  \\ Colemak layout.

Offline TotalChaos

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 10 December 2012, 13:11:19 »
How long did it take u to make the switch to colemak?
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Offline davkol

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 10 December 2012, 13:59:00 »
How long did it take u to make the switch to colemak?
I did QWERTY by day, Colemak by night (15 minutes doing online lessons before going to bed) for two weeks. After another two weeks completely without Colemak, I went cold turkey. The first month wasn't exactly easy (~30 wpm @ 90 % accuracy, I should had practiced more), but I was slowly progressing without any issues (most people have crisis around the third week), my progress followed the logarithmic function, I reached 55 wpm @ 98 % accuracy after six months.

However, most good typists convert much faster, some reach ~100 wpm in one or two months.

Offline Burz

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 10 December 2012, 14:29:51 »
How long did it take u to make the switch to colemak?
It was tougher for me because I didn't know touch typing at all; On Qwerty I was all hunt and peck at about 45-50WPM. Now after 9 months I'm at about 60-70WPM and much more accurate at 97%. At six months I was barely at 45.

I've been comparing other people's experiences moving to Colemak with my own, and I'd say the better a touch typist you already are, the quicker and easier the move is to Colemak. Experience works in your favor, not against. Most people who already did over 60WPM touch typing seem to have put in 1/3 the time and effort I did.
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Offline daerid

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 10 December 2012, 14:53:25 »
I'd love to learn an alternate layout, thinkin about the Workman layout. His argument for it's use by software developers is compelling

Offline hashbaz

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 10 December 2012, 14:55:14 »
Yes, I've been thinking about a developer-centric layout for a while.  Thanks for posting this.

Offline linuxid10t

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #30 on: Mon, 10 December 2012, 19:19:34 »
I'd love to learn an alternate layout, thinkin about the Workman layout. His argument for it's use by software developers is compelling

If only it was better supported.  That's the nice thing about Colemak, comes with pretty much all Linux distributions.  IDK, it seems to me that Workman is just a sidestep from Colemak as opposed to truly better.  Both are significantly better than QWERTY and Dvorak though.

Offline daerid

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 10 December 2012, 20:42:48 »
If only it was better supported.  That's the nice thing about Colemak, comes with pretty much all Linux distributions.  IDK, it seems to me that Workman is just a sidestep from Colemak as opposed to truly better.  Both are significantly better than QWERTY and Dvorak though.

It's all about your average workflow. Most of the combinations I find myself typing while developing are slightly awkward in Colemak, as the Workman guy said. To each their own though. Also, I agree that most things are better than qwerty.

Offline linuxid10t

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 10 December 2012, 23:23:16 »
Up to 26 WPM from 20 this morning :D

Offline Turbinia

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 10 December 2012, 23:34:29 »
This site gives some metrics that give a strong case for colemak.
http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?popular_alternatives

The L in Dvorak and the moving of ZXCV, which is a huge pain for the kind of programing I have do, are the main reasons I will not switch to Dvorak. In the process of learning Colemak right now. The incremental improvements over Colemak they talk about on the Carpalx site don't really seem like that big of deal to me. You get that big improvement over qwerty with Colemak by moving only 17 keys and keeping the ZXCV group as well as it being a standard.

Shai, the creator of Colemak's response to Workman:

The Workman layout is a layout that tries to gain a few extra percents of optimizing one factor, while completely neglecting other factors.
1. The layout doesn't maintain ZXCV in the same location. e.g. if you're working with different windows that have different keyboard layouts, it means you can't reliably copy and paste between windows. This also ignores the strong motor memory of these shortcuts. It makes it harder to learn, and more difficult if you're switching back and forth between layouts.
2. The layout moves more keys around, more keys move hands, they move further away. Many of the ease of learning elements in Colemak have been ignored.
3. Same finger is mostly ignored. It's quite bad on the ring fingers which aren't dexterous. You'll see people who complained in the forum about the same-finger of the WR/RW same-finger digraph on the ring finger in Colemak. Compare it to the PO/OP digraph on Workman which is an order of magnitude more common. Same-finger aren't a big deal in the beginning, but they become very problematic with high speed typing as they break the flow of typing.
4. Shift-Capslock is escape, which means that if you're typing words in uppercase by holding the shift, you can't make corrections without releasing and repressing the shift key, which is very annoying.
5. By optimizing for combos, it allows for quite long sequences of the same hand. Colemak IMO has a better balance between combos and hand alternation.
6. It has more row jumping than Colemak.
7. The letter D, which is the 10th most frequent letter in English gets a bad placement on the ring finger off the home row.
8. The research is based on a small corpus of six books, which skews all the statistics.
9. The author claims to be "Workman is now stable and better than before. There will be no more changes after October 3, 2010". There hasn't been any feedback yet from long-term users (I doubt even the author has used it for long), and it still has design flaws which means that either it will be changed again, or the flaws will be ignored.
10. The author claims "Typing ‘HE’ [on Colemak] forced the hand to make a very unnatural sideways twisting motion from the wrist and then back again". If you're twisting your wrists while typing, you're doing it wrong. Again the layout was optimized for the TH combo, while ignoring other typing statistics.
11. A project that only exists as a blog post, and doesn't even have it's own webpage doesn't inspire too much respect, or demonstrates any investment from the author.

I've added it to the list of alternatives layouts, but I think there are better ones out there.

http://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=939
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Offline daerid

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 11 December 2012, 01:38:13 »
Man, this stuff can get to *nix/windows/mac level religious

Offline linuxid10t

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #35 on: Tue, 11 December 2012, 13:05:58 »
Up to 30 WPM from 26 yesterday :D

Offline TotalChaos

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #36 on: Tue, 11 December 2012, 13:35:51 »
Quote
10. The author claims "Typing ‘HE’ [on Colemak] forced the hand to make a very unnatural sideways twisting motion from the wrist and then back again". If you're twisting your wrists while typing, you're doing it wrong. Again the layout was optimized for the TH combo, while ignoring other typing statistics.
That is why I have no interest in workman.  Either the author is playing a prank on the world or he has a very serious medical condition.

If he has tendonitis in his (QWERTY) G & H fingers then I sympathize with him a lot.  But I don't feel that a whole keyboard layout should be based on getting tendonitis in that specific finger.

Ok it is your mouse finger so I guess it is the easiest finger to get tendonitis in.  It is even how my whole horrible hand pain problem started.  But then you would have to be unlucky enough to get mirror image pain.  Ok I got that too.  But I am like the unluckiest person in the world.

I am always open minded and if someone brings facts to light that optimizing for tendonitis in G & H fingers is a good idea then I shall happily reconsider.

But for now I like Colemak the best.  XCV FTW! :)
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Offline Peter

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #37 on: Wed, 12 December 2012, 10:05:54 »
Which is better?

Considering the fact that QWERTY was specifically conceived to SLOW YOUR WPM DOWN ..
ANYTHING ELSE is better !
QWERTY was created to prevent 'jamming' . If you don't get what I mean :
Look at a mechanical typewriter !!

That's right : Our PC-keyboard-layout is dictated by mechanical engineering requirements !   

Offline dorkvader

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #38 on: Wed, 12 December 2012, 23:02:25 »
This site gives some metrics that give a strong case for colemak.
http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?popular_alternatives

The L in Dvorak and the moving of ZXCV, which is a huge pain for the kind of programing I have do, are the main reasons I will not switch to Dvorak. In the process of learning Colemak right now. The incremental improvements over Colemak they talk about on the Carpalx site don't really seem like that big of deal to me. You get that big improvement over qwerty with Colemak by moving only 17 keys and keeping the ZXCV group as well as it being a standard.

Shai, the creator of Colemak's response to Workman:

The Workman layout is a layout that tries to gain a few extra percents of optimizing one factor, while completely neglecting other factors.
1. The layout doesn't maintain ZXCV in the same location. e.g. if you're working with different windows that have different keyboard layouts, it means you can't reliably copy and paste between windows. This also ignores the strong motor memory of these shortcuts. It makes it harder to learn, and more difficult if you're switching back and forth between layouts.
2. The layout moves more keys around, more keys move hands, they move further away. Many of the ease of learning elements in Colemak have been ignored.
3. Same finger is mostly ignored. It's quite bad on the ring fingers which aren't dexterous. You'll see people who complained in the forum about the same-finger of the WR/RW same-finger digraph on the ring finger in Colemak. Compare it to the PO/OP digraph on Workman which is an order of magnitude more common. Same-finger aren't a big deal in the beginning, but they become very problematic with high speed typing as they break the flow of typing.
4. Shift-Capslock is escape, which means that if you're typing words in uppercase by holding the shift, you can't make corrections without releasing and repressing the shift key, which is very annoying.
5. By optimizing for combos, it allows for quite long sequences of the same hand. Colemak IMO has a better balance between combos and hand alternation.
6. It has more row jumping than Colemak.
7. The letter D, which is the 10th most frequent letter in English gets a bad placement on the ring finger off the home row.
8. The research is based on a small corpus of six books, which skews all the statistics.
9. The author claims to be "Workman is now stable and better than before. There will be no more changes after October 3, 2010". There hasn't been any feedback yet from long-term users (I doubt even the author has used it for long), and it still has design flaws which means that either it will be changed again, or the flaws will be ignored.
10. The author claims "Typing ‘HE’ [on Colemak] forced the hand to make a very unnatural sideways twisting motion from the wrist and then back again". If you're twisting your wrists while typing, you're doing it wrong. Again the layout was optimized for the TH combo, while ignoring other typing statistics.
11. A project that only exists as a blog post, and doesn't even have it's own webpage doesn't inspire too much respect, or demonstrates any investment from the author.

I've added it to the list of alternatives layouts, but I think there are better ones out there.

http://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=939
Allow me to address some of these points with Philosophy.

1. I see this as a highly-used but bad argument for a keyboard layout. Exhibiting the is-ought problem, I see the world as a nominalist would: I don't sacrifice ideals for some measure of gained utility from tradition. ZXCV should not be put where they are (or moved) based on a prior effort, or because you used to do tings that way. This is also why I don't find the "not broke -> don't fix it" statement to be valid at all. Everything is broken, and there is room for improvement everywhere. We must always strive to find (define) and achieve the ideal of perfection. Muscles can be re-learned easily, and ALT-INSERT, etc shortcuts work great. In linux, I don't even need the keyboard to copy/paste.
2. Once again, I think that keeping a number of keys similar to QWERTY just to achieve more similarity is wrong. Having incidental similarly placed keys (like A and M) is okay, provided that similar placement is not the goal. I am also a non-consequentialist.
3. I'm more worried about comfort than speed of typing (I'd learn steno/chording if I wanted speed) but this point (of preference) is a good one. This is a valid reason to choose colemak over workman. (I don't begrudge other's epistemology, as I believe that meta-epistemology to be impossible)
4. Valid point, but I see this as more of a macro issue than a layout one. No keyboard layout should be considered based on the macros (when comparing keyboard layouts: you can compare them if you want to compare your whole autohotkey setup or whatever). If this is the case with workman, then they have handily included suggestions for more than just a layout. (I try not to compare across-levels: Some things should be considered as incommensurable) I mean, you can set up (or disable) similar things in any layout.
5. I strongly agree: Hand alteration is important, hence why I chose Dvorak. One note: Hand alteration is not always good. I sometimes will reverse two letters in a word more commonly in Dvorak than QWERTY, I believe it's due to a different amount of hand alternation combined with my psycho/physiological expectations. (I am willing to consider that my position is not perfect, and might have some flaws)
6. I don't know what this is (I'll freely admit it. Now let me just look it up...)
7. I don't think you can compare layouts based on a single letter placement. That's gotta be a fallacy or something.
8. This smells like FUD. I would rather make a scientific claim with good data on both sides when trying to invalidate someone else's experiments.
9. All the [legitimate] design flaws points out thus far are pretty much just opinions. If the workman person considers his layout "perfect" then he is wrong. One must always be trying to improve (trying to see possible ways to make it better)
10. This is the first time he's mentioned his take on the layout being optimized for TH/HE, so I don't think his use of "again" is really justified. Still that's really splitting hairs. I looked up colemak and I don't see how you would twist your hand at all to type TH on it, Still, TH is much easier on Dvorak. :p
11. This is completely a terrible argument. Just because an ideas comes from a "lowborn" source, does not make it invalid. Ideas, and hypotheses stand and fall on their own. Look into the principle of supercooling: which was first suggested by a student, and dismissed by many scientists, yet his observation was still valid, even though his results weren't published in a journal. I don't care if I see a new keyboard layout on the back of a napkin, that will not disqualify it from being a good or bad idea. It might not "inspire respect" but that's not the point of analysis, or decision making. I don't "respect" anything based on it's outward appearance. I will make my judgment and decision (and later, respect) based on the qualities of the idea in question. Also, you cannot tell by just a blog post what sort of investment an author has made into a work. I can, for example, Test a layout for decades all by myself without telling anyone, and put it up on GH here. There is (nor sholud there be) and indication of the time investment I have made before going public. I am fairly certain that any position tying to find "investment level" from method of publication will be difficult-to-impossible to describe (rendering it meaningless. You'll just patch holes over your weak ideology) or self-inconsistent.

---
Finally, if colemak works for you, then more power to you! I am glad to see it. Since nothing is really perfect, the pros and cons of anything will mean that it is better for some than others. For some people Dvorak is best, for others: colemak. I prefer Dvorak for philosophical reasons, and am considering switching to Qgmlwb (or similar).

Offline Burz

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #39 on: Thu, 13 December 2012, 00:32:07 »
Up to 30 WPM from 26 yesterday :D

Did you get to 45 yet? That's where Typeracer says you're a Pro. :D
Matias Mini QuietPro  \\ Dell AT101W - Black ALPS  \\ SIIG MiniTouch x2 White XM - Monterey  \\ Colemak layout.

Offline linuxid10t

  • Posts: 68
Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #40 on: Thu, 13 December 2012, 02:06:54 »
Up to 30 WPM from 26 yesterday :D

Did you get to 45 yet? That's where Typeracer says you're a Pro. :D

No, close but here is the problem.  I am at 36 WPM right now in Colemak, but it is really effecting my QWERTY speed, so I may need to take a break for a while.  I don't know...  Any suggestions?  I mean I really like Colemak better, but I can't let it effect my QWERTY speed too much more.  Although, by the end of this post, I am feeling better about my QWERTY speed.  Mind****ed.  Okay, I took a few minutes out through this post to check, takes about 10 minutes to comfortably switch between the two.  I think I can live with that.

Offline TotalChaos

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #41 on: Thu, 13 December 2012, 02:21:46 »
Carry ur Colemak keyboard around with you so you never hafta switch back to Qwerty.
Rosewill RK-9000RE #1 (Broke on day 26, fixed with Scotch Tape on day 42, barely holding together)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #2 (Lubed, still in the box.  I am afraid to use it because it will break like the first one)

Offline linuxid10t

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #42 on: Thu, 13 December 2012, 02:38:39 »
Carry ur Colemak keyboard around with you so you never hafta switch back to Qwerty.

It is Colemak in software, not hardware, that would be useless.  LOL

Offline TotalChaos

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #43 on: Thu, 13 December 2012, 11:04:51 »
WASD is releasing a hardware Colemak (or Dvorak) keyboard in 3 months.

It has a switch you to set for Qwerty, Colemak or Dvorak.

That way u can use it on ANY computer without changing any keymap settings in the OS.
Rosewill RK-9000RE #1 (Broke on day 26, fixed with Scotch Tape on day 42, barely holding together)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #2 (Lubed, still in the box.  I am afraid to use it because it will break like the first one)

Offline linuxid10t

  • Posts: 68
Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #44 on: Thu, 13 December 2012, 18:56:24 »
WASD is releasing a hardware Colemak (or Dvorak) keyboard in 3 months.

It has a switch you to set for Qwerty, Colemak or Dvorak.

That way u can use it on ANY computer without changing any keymap settings in the OS.

Wow, that sounds pretty cool.  It would be quite useful depending on the size.

Offline crthell

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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #45 on: Sat, 15 December 2012, 17:20:38 »
I would probably learn either Colemak or Dvorak (or at least try,) but everything at my school is Qwerty. I don't want to confuse myself. Besides, I type fairly well on Qwerty. Mad props to people who use an alternate layout in this Qwerty-centric world, though :-)
/crthell
Mechanical Keyboard(s): Apple Extended Keyboard II M3501 (dampened Alps)
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Offline TemurAmir

  • Posts: 9
Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #46 on: Sat, 15 December 2012, 22:22:13 »
You can run colemak on school computers/work computers without installing any software using autohotkey or portable keyboard layout. I put these programs on my USB drive and just run the exe files when I'm using Colemak. I actually have Dvorak too on the same portable keyboard program so that it cycles when I do ctrl+alt hotkey.

http://colemak.com/wiki/index.php?title=Windows
There's links to the portable layout and autohotkey downloads on the colemak website.

I don't actually use Dvorak anymore, however, since I found while I was trying to learn it that I prefer Colemak more, which I am in the process of learning now. I started about a month ago and I'm at around 50 wpm, while on Qwerty my average is around 95. My Qwerty speed drops noticeably if I try to switch immediately back and forth, but after some warmup, there's small speed change.

http://www.ryanheise.com/colemak/
For those of you worried about losing Qwerty speed, there's a graph of Ryan Heise's changes.

Offline Burz

  • Posts: 248
  • maybe get a blister on yo' little finger...
Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #47 on: Sat, 15 December 2012, 23:43:02 »
You can run colemak on school computers/work computers without installing any software using autohotkey or portable keyboard layout. I put these programs on my USB drive and just run the exe files when I'm using Colemak. I actually have Dvorak too on the same portable keyboard program so that it cycles when I do ctrl+alt hotkey.
I could never find any instructions with those scripts describing how to use them (turn them off, remove the keymap display, etc).
Matias Mini QuietPro  \\ Dell AT101W - Black ALPS  \\ SIIG MiniTouch x2 White XM - Monterey  \\ Colemak layout.

Offline TemurAmir

  • Posts: 9
Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #48 on: Sun, 16 December 2012, 01:28:11 »
The portable layout I downloaded seems pretty self explanatory. It comes with a notepad settings file that has instructions on how to create new hotkeys, add new layouts, etc. However, even with the autohotkey program I have, if I just right click on the icon in my taskbar, a list of options and settings pops up to do those things

http://pkl.sourceforge.net/http://pkl.sourceforge.net/

Offline samwisekoi

  • MAWG since 1997
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Re: Dvorak vs. Colemak
« Reply #49 on: Sun, 16 December 2012, 14:28:33 »
This is an interesting topic.  I might give it a try.

In the meantime, here is a Colemak 60% layout I created for the 60% Keycap Layouts - OEM, MX & B/S thread.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[edit]Added UNEI arrows.
« Last Edit: Sun, 16 December 2012, 16:50:02 by samwisekoi »
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case