Benefits of Cherry MX Brown switches

[patrickgeekhack]

So far I have tried the following switches:
- Buckling Spring
- Cherry MX Brown
- Cherry MX Blue
- Complicated  Black ALPS
- Simplified Black ALPS
- Topre

I have noticed that the switches which will cause the most fatigue after a long typing session is the buckling spring. Suprisingly, the one switch which causes the least amount of fatigue, barely any fatigue really, is the Cherry MX Brown. It does not have the greatest feedback. In fact, I cannot really feel the tactile bump when I typing fast. However, it allows for what I like to call a "touch-and-go" typing style, which requires very little force and makes the least amount of noise. I can feel some fatigue with my beloved Cherry MX Blue and even with the Topre.

Now, when it comes to the lowest noise level, I am referring to my Filco not my Compaq MX-11800. While the latter still allows for a touch-and-go typing style, I find it to be noisier than the Filco. I use a very simple test to come to that conclusion.

When my daugther came home from the hospital the first time, she was not bothered by noise at all. Not surprising, since she spent two weeks in an incubator. Over time, however, she got used to a more quiet environment. Now, because she's teething, some noise can cause her to wake up. If I'm typing on my Filco (and my Topre), she will not wake up. If I start to type on my MX-11800, she'll wake up within two minutes. This is why I cannot use my blue Cherry for now...until I move her room or move my office.

Anyway, has any of you notice that brown Cherry switches cause less fatigue?

[hyperlinked]

To head off a Geekhack land war, let me offer an analogy here.

I assume that everyone here's lifted a few weights at least a few times in his or her life. You take a 10lb. weight and you can lift it in different ways. You can do a bicep curl, you can do an overhead press, you can do tricep extensions with it. It's the same weight, but depending on how you use it, it'll seem heavier or lighter for two reasons:

1) Change in biomechanical leverage from changing the position of the weight
2) Change in primary muscle groups relied upon to lift the weight

From a purely physics standpoint, the lightest switch possible should be least fatiguing because it results in the least amount of work done to depress the switch. Of course, nothing about using your keyboard is pure so it's enitrely reasonable that one person tires faster on one board with Browns than on a board with Buckling Springs.

Even if you have pain, the weight of the switch alone may not be enough to explain what will cause you the most discomfort. It's conceivable that if you type twice as fast on a Cherry Brown than you do on a Buckling Spring that you'll have much more pain on the Cherry Brown because either the speed or the repetitions that you're doing will result in more pain. I'm exaggerating of course, but just doing so to illustrate a point.

[patrickgeekhack]

Even if you have pain, the weight of the switch alone may not be enough to explain what will cause you the most discomfort. It's conceivable that if you type twice as fast on a Cherry Brown than you do on a Buckling Spring that you'll have much more pain on the Cherry Brown because either the speed or the repetitions that you're doing will result in more pain. I'm exaggerating of course, but just doing so to illustrate a point.

I think it's the opposite in my case. I wanted to get the same WPM on my buckling spring as I could get on my Cherry switches.

[hyperlinked]

I think it's the opposite in my case. I wanted to get the same WPM on my buckling spring as I could get on my Cherry switches.

Well, if you're faster on the buckling springs, then that alone could explain why you feel less fatigue on the Browns... or not.

Just going by the physics alone:

[Fewer keystrokes per minute] x [lower force per keystroke] = Less work performed by your hands.

[patrickgeekhack]

Just going by the physics alone:

[Fewer keystrokes per minute] x [lower force per keystroke] = Less work performed by your hands.

True, I'm definitely using less force on the brown cherry.

[keyboardlover]

It is interesting how easy browns are to type on...I have to type up a bunch of stuff for work tonight, and I plugged in my Compaq because the AT101W was tiring me out (and I'm a bit tired to begin with). It's made a huge difference.

[patrickgeekhack]

It is interesting how easy browns are to type on...I have to type up a bunch of stuff for work tonight, and I plugged in my Compaq because the AT101W was tiring me out (and I'm a bit tired to begin with). It's made a huge difference.

Maybe I should try Cherry Red which supposedly is even lighter :-)

[keyboardlover]

Maybe I should try Cherry Red which supposedly is even lighter :-)

Could do...I think ultimately I'd prefer a switch that requires just a little bit more force (and is a little more tactile) than the browns, with the same noise level.

[ch_123]

Maybe I should try Cherry Red which supposedly is even lighter :-)

Same resistance, just no tactility.

[patrickgeekhack]

Same resistance, just no tactility.

Not much different from the brown then since when one reach a certain speed, it's very hard to notice that the brown has a tactile bump unless of course the unconsious mind can notice it. I need to ask Freud.

[jpc]

I am just getting used to browns after years on buckling spring.

Browns are light, fast, and delicate, like a hummingbird.

Buckling springs are as light, fast, and delicate as a meat grinder.

It is an emotional difference.

Browns are mellow. Let's talk about Disney land and rainbows and Christmas. lol

Buckling springs want to punch someone. This is the switch for replying to idiot coworkers and fixing their mistakes. Thunka plunka chunk -- I reverted your change from source control. Thacka clacka frack -- test it next time. kthxbye.

One of my coworkers was at IBM in the '70s and '80s. He remembers smoke in the hallways, swearing in the conference rooms, open sexism, and open feuds.

Genes from old Big Blue are in every model M.

[jpc]

I have noticed that the switches which will cause the most fatigue after a long typing session is the buckling spring.

Isn't fatigue normal after a long day?

I'd like a switch that feels good, and I want to avoid getting an RSI.

Fatigue doesn't sound like a problem really, fatigue means it's time to stop and squeeze a stress-reducing anti-RSI device:

[Soarer]

Same resistance, just no tactility.

The tactility adds some resistance, so the the reds do feel lighter. Ghetto reds are what I'm trying, so definately the exact same spring. It's surprising just how different they feel, given that browns are quite smooth anyway.

[patrickgeekhack]

Isn't fatigue normal after a long day?

I'd like a switch that feels good, and I want to avoid getting an RSI.

Fatigue doesn't sound like a problem really, fatigue means it's time to stop and squeeze a stress-reducing anti-RSI device:

Show Image

But the question is:  Can fatigue in the case of typing lead to RSI?  It's also true that it is a sign that one need to take a break. But, many people don't have that luxury or tend to forget about it and continue working because they have a deadline to meet.

[colbabe]

Well, if you're faster on the buckling springs, then that alone could explain why you feel less fatigue on the Browns... or not.

Just going by the physics alone:

[Fewer keystrokes per minute] x [lower force per keystroke] = Less work performed by your hands.

Good point.  

Why then the need to use more than one keyboard?  

My thoughts, just as a body part needs to exercise using different moves (as stated lifting weights) ... and resistance/isometrics, aerobic, anaerobic, strengthing, so do our fingers.

Since I've purchased the brown cherry FILCO, I cannot produce any faster but my fingers are less fatigued; however on a keyboard given to me, an +RT85-
and I type faster plus have slight tactility.

Could it be possible that changing keyboards periodically produces a positive effect overall.

[patrickgeekhack]

Could it be possible that changing keyboards periodically produces a positive effect overall.

Good point too. Could it be because we reach a plateau at some point if we stick to only one keyboard?

[jpc]

Can fatigue in the case of typing lead to RSI?

Excellent question. I don't know. Geekhack could use an ergonomics and RSI wiki. Maybe I'll start one. I just need the actual content. Details...

Tomorrow I'm meeting a friend who is a physical therapist. I'll see if she has information on computer RSIs that isn't generic fluff ("take a break every 10 minutes") or marketing drivel ("buy our $80 rubber domes.") Research on the topic must exist.

[patrickgeekhack]

Excellent question. I don't know. Geekhack could use an ergonomics and RSI wiki. Maybe I'll start one. I just need the actual content. Details...

Tomorrow I'm meeting a friend who is a physical therapist. I'll see if she has information on computer RSIs that isn't generic fluff ("take a break every 10 minutes") or marketing drivel ("buy our $80 rubber domes.") Research on the topic must exist.

I will wait for your input. In the meantime I think it can. If we think about it for a minute. RSI is repetitive strain injury. When typing, we do the same thing over and over and over again. Take a piece of metal, bend it and straighten it. It probably will not break. But do the same thing over and over, and it will break. So, I believe this is the case. But I'm no expert. Please do update this thread :-)

[hyperlinked]

Why then the need to use more than one keyboard?...  

Could it be possible that changing keyboards periodically produces a positive effect overall.

I don't think I said that you need to use different keyboards. I was just using an analogy of weight lifting to make it easier to understand why someone might be able to achieve paradoxical results of having less pain with heavier switches. It's wasn't the best analogy because while you might stress different muscles more or less when you change keyboards, it's probably mostly the same and most accomplished touch typists won't see their speed drop off a cliff so while it's possible for someone to get relief moving to a heavier switch, I wouldn't say it's likely for your typical person.

A few people here who suffer from RSI have reported that they change their keyboards on a rotation. I've done so myself before. It really depends on what RSI symptoms you have and even then, I'd expect that it'd only have a small effect unless we're talking about going from traditional keyboards to a vertical split ergo keyboard or a Kinesis Contour. Just changing keyboards that are mostly the same, but have different switch types should have only minimal effects at best.

Switching keyboards can't be said to product a positive effect. It could just as easily produce a negative effect and barely any difference in effect.

[hyperlinked]

Excellent question. I don't know. Geekhack could use an ergonomics and RSI wiki. Maybe I'll start one. I just need the actual content. Details...

Tomorrow I'm meeting a friend who is a physical therapist. I'll see if she has information on computer RSIs that isn't generic fluff ("take a break every 10 minutes") or marketing drivel ("buy our $80 rubber domes.") Research on the topic must exist.

I used to be a physical therapist and I'll give your friend an excuse ahead of time. Most PT's don't treat a lot of hand injuries in the US. If Occupational Therapists are around, they usually get those cases.

The other thing is that it's pretty much impossible to give RSI information that isn't generic. Asking a PT "how can one avoid RSI and continue to spend lots of time behind a keyboard" is like asking "how do I run marathons and avoid running injuries?"

You can expect some sensible advice, but don't expect to hear any secret tips that professional swap amongst themselves. To get to specifics, you'll need to look at very specific examples because RSI itself is what they call a "bucket diagnosis" used when the specific cause can't be positively identified. It'd be like telling the marathon running that your diagnosis is that you use your legs too much.

[itlnstln]

Without reading the whole thread...

I find that Cherry switches are "bouncier" than other switches.  Because of this, they return some of the energy used in pressing them by "helping" your fingers back up.  This phenomenon combined with the progressive force curve and the overall lightness of blues, browns and reds, IMO, combine for a more ergonomic typing experience.  Even though, I am really digging the Topres in the Realforce, it still doesn't have the fatigue-killing "bounce" Cherry has.

[patrickgeekhack]

Even though, I am really digging the Topres in the Realforce, it still doesn't have the fatigue-killing "bounce" Cherry has.

I find that too. I, personally, find Topre to require more force than brown Cherry. It could be because it requires more initial force.

[itlnstln]

I find that too. I, personally, find Topre to require more force than brown Cherry. It could be because it requires more initial force.

That might be the case.  The progressive force curve does give the impression that the Cherrys are lighter.  Now that I am on the RF, I think the Topres feel a little lighter to me (some of the switches actually are), but I definitely feel that the Cherry browns are lighter than the HHKB.

[colbabe]

I don't think I said that you need to use different keyboards. I was just using an analogy of weight lifting to make it easier to understand why someone might be able to achieve paradoxical results of having less pain with heavier switches. It's wasn't the best analogy because while you might stress different muscles more or less when you change keyboards, it's probably mostly the same and most accomplished touch typists won't see their speed drop off a cliff so while it's possible for someone to get relief moving to a heavier switch, I wouldn't say it's likely for your typical person.

A few people here who suffer from RSI have reported that they change their keyboards on a rotation. I've done so myself before. It really depends on what RSI symptoms you have and even then, I'd expect that it'd only have a small effect unless we're talking about going from traditional keyboards to a vertical split ergo keyboard or a Kinesis Contour. Just changing keyboards that are mostly the same, but have different switch types should have only minimal effects at best.

Switching keyboards can't be said to product a positive effect. It could just as easily produce a negative effect and barely any difference in effect.

I don't think I said that you need to use different keyboards.

No, you didn't - rather I posed the question purposely for others to examine and provide input.  I have suffered with RSI and in the early years when all that was available were the inundated thick IBM monitors and keyboards which required heavy pounding I then suffered with acute tendonitis.  However, speaking from experience I can say that changing keyboards, for me, has produced an overall (and continues to) positive effect and experience, minus the split keyboard.

It is interesting to hear of others' experiences and often more than not we learn from one another.

I hope I helped to clarify.

[hyperlinked]

I have suffered with RSI and in the early years when all that was available were the inundated thick IBM monitors and keyboards which required heavy pounding I then suffered with acute tendonitis.  However, speaking from experience I can say that changing keyboards, for me, has produced an overall (and continues to) positive effect and experience, minus the split keyboard.

Did you mean that you changed keyboards in an attempt to improve your RSI symptoms or did you mean that you rotate through different keyboards in an effort to find relief?

I was mostly speaking to the latter scenario in which someone swaps in and out different keyboards that are mostly similar to get pain relief. I was saying that such a move might help, but is so dependent on specifics that you could just as easily say it was an improvement, no change, or worse.

[spolia optima]

I love my brown cherry boards. They are absolutely effortless typing machines.

I tend to use my Buckling Springs in the morning, as a sort of "warm up". After a few hours of writing, my fingers will get a bit fatigued. This is when I switch to a brown or blue cherry. At this point, my fingers are nimble and precise, perfect for uber fast typing.

[microsoft windows]

Unfortunately, I usually don't get to use any nice keyboards for most of the day (They've got rubber domes at work).

[keyboardlover]

Unfortunately, I usually don't get to use any nice keyboards for most of the day (They've got rubber domes at work).

Why not bring your own keyboard to work?

[spolia optima]

Unfortunately, I usually don't get to use any nice keyboards for most of the day (They've got rubber domes at work).

I bring my keyboard to the office. It's a shared office but the other guy doesn't mind the brown switches on my G803000 LXVEU. It's a quiet board (and one of my absolute favorites).

[microsoft windows]

I don't because I ride to work on a bicycle and I don't have the room to bring my Model M.

[itlnstln]

It sounds like you need a HHKB.  Mine fits cozily in my laptop backpack.

[spolia optima]

edit: to mswin

You would only have to bring it once...

Also, props on biking to work!
I bike to university almost every day and I've never felt healthier.

[microsoft windows]

I like biking to work. I'm probably the one of only guys who doesn't live anywhere close to the city who does that. It also saves gas money.

[microsoft windows]

It sounds like you need a HHKB.  Mine fits cozily in my laptop backpack.

I don't think HHKB's are really for me. They're nice and small, but I like my number pad.

[itlnstln]

If I end up moving downtown, I will definitely end up biking or walking to work.

[microsoft windows]

I don't think I could really walk to work. It's about a 15-minute bike ride. And up here in New England, there's plenty of hills too.

[spolia optima]

Driving would be a nightmare in my city. Since my recent move away from the city center, I've taken up biking a mile to the park and ride and then bus to the college.

This gives me plenty of time to catch up on reading or w/e.

The only downside is not being able to rage at traffic. I used to let off all my extra energy that way. Maybe it's time to join a fight club or something?

[microsoft windows]

You can still flip folks the bird from your bike.

[spolia optima]

I don't think I could really walk to work. It's about a 15-minute bike ride. And up here in New England, there's plenty of hills too.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I always pictured you as a bearded old man living in some run-down bungalow with a backyard full of old computers.

[spolia optima]

You can still flip folks the bird from your bike.

Trust me, I do.

But not in certain neighborhoods where hand gestures are an invitation for buttsechs.

And also not in other neighborhoods where hand gestures are an invitation to a bullet in the face

[itlnstln]

I don't think I could really walk to work. It's about a 15-minute bike ride. And up here in New England, there's plenty of hills too.

That, and you have snow... and it sounds like it's uphill both ways.  Fortunately, we don't have that problem.  Well, the snow part, anyway.

[microsoft windows]

Well, the thing about hills is there's a downhill side too. And since it's up north, we also got about an average of 500 potholes per mile on our roads.

[patrickgeekhack]

I do get mad behind the wheel, but not often. Moreover it's getting rarer and rarer. I have come to the following conclusion. When you are stuck in traffic, you are stuck in traffic. The best thing to do is to put on the radio or a CD and enjoy the time you are going to spend stuck in the traffic. Second, why should I let my adrenaline level go up for something that I am responsible for? Why should I get stressed because of something I did not do? Third, we should always give the other the benefit of the doubt. It could well be that someone cut me off because he or she is not from the area and therefore is more prone to make such last minute change of lane.

Most of all, by not getting angry behind the wheel, I may be increasing my life expectancy. Also getting angry may make one snap more easily at someone else.

[itlnstln]

And since it's up north, we also got about an average of 500 potholes per mile on our roads.

Snow (and ice) sucks.  I was driving around the Chicagoland area last week and noticed the same thing.  I didn't notice it much when I was a kid, but now that I have been living in Texas for awhile, I just add it to the list of reasons why I hate snow.

[microsoft windows]

Well, there's at least one good thing about New England--You don't need an air conditioner.

[itlnstln]

True that.  My A/C is taking a beating this summer.

[keyboardlover]

Snow (and ice) sucks.  I was driving around the Chicagoland area last week and noticed the same thing.  I didn't notice it much when I was a kid, but now that I have been living in Texas for awhile, I just add it to the list of reasons why I hate snow.

I hear Texas gets bad ice storms? Or maybe that's just in the Dallas area...you're much further south than that.

[itlnstln]

We have been through a few ice storms that have shut down the city.  The past several years, though, have been pretty mild, and we haven't seen anything like those ice storms for awhile now.  The Hill Country between San Antonio and Austin keeps the warmer Gulf air here in San Antonio and prevents the cooler weather from the north from pushing down as far.  During the winter we can be as much as 5-10 degrees warmer than Austin, and they are only an hour away.  Dallas can get pretty snowy at times.

[itlnstln]

What are those white puffy things that those lightning bolts are shooting out of?

We don't get lightning like that down here.  We haven't seen clouds (except in the mornings) or rain for awhile here.  I have seen it in Dallas, though, it's pretty crazy.

[didjamatic]

I have the least RSI symptoms when I use cherry browns.

[microsoft windows]

What are those white puffy things that those lightning bolts are shooting out of?

We don't get lightning like that down here.  We haven't seen clouds (except in the mornings) or rain for awhile here.  I have seen it in Dallas, though, it's pretty crazy.

Actually, up in CT, I've been noticing some severe thunderstorms hitting my area. I've gotten 1-inch or larger hail a few times, and several trees in my backyard were downed from a tornado that hit last August.