[IC] SPACE EXTENDED - NEW SA Doubleshot Font Project

[MOZ]

5

to reach the $6000 necessary to cut all the legends, get test sets made, correct errors, etc

I'm really looking forward to the Classic Space keycaps, but as an ISO user can I ask what ISO options are included in the 6k?  I'm not sure how the legends will work.  I assume if "backspace" is made, then it can be used by other designers to replace Caps Lock (such as with Pulse).   I guess Plank/White Fox might need some special legends as well.

As far as I know, current plans are to include basic legends for UK ISO compatibility, but probably not for Planck or White Fox unless we raise significantly more than $6000 and there is a lot of support for legends in a specific nonstandard layout.

Arent fonts row agnostic?

I wouldn't think so, at least for doubleshot.  The letters would need to follow the contour of the cap itself.

Hopefully someone with more info than me can chime in.

AFAIK, SA legends can be reused for any SA row profile key of the same size, but not for keys of different sizes, or any profiles outside the SA family. This means sculpted, all R3, Colemak, Dvorak, QWERTZ, AZERTY, etc. layouts are all possible at no additional cost, but Planck, Ergodox, and other layouts with nonstandard key sizes would require additional legends to be cut.

Unfortunately, I think you might be in the wrong here, every legend is specific to size AND profile. This is why, for the longest time SP didn't have Row 4 Shift keys. The way double shot works (At least at SP), it requires the legends to take the profile as well as the size of a keycap.

[Dernubenfrieken]

5

to reach the $6000 necessary to cut all the legends, get test sets made, correct errors, etc

I'm really looking forward to the Classic Space keycaps, but as an ISO user can I ask what ISO options are included in the 6k?  I'm not sure how the legends will work.  I assume if "backspace" is made, then it can be used by other designers to replace Caps Lock (such as with Pulse).   I guess Plank/White Fox might need some special legends as well.

As far as I know, current plans are to include basic legends for UK ISO compatibility, but probably not for Planck or White Fox unless we raise significantly more than $6000 and there is a lot of support for legends in a specific nonstandard layout.

Arent fonts row agnostic?

I wouldn't think so, at least for doubleshot.  The letters would need to follow the contour of the cap itself.

Hopefully someone with more info than me can chime in.

AFAIK, SA legends can be reused for any SA row profile key of the same size, but not for keys of different sizes, or any profiles outside the SA family. This means sculpted, all R3, Colemak, Dvorak, QWERTZ, AZERTY, etc. layouts are all possible at no additional cost, but Planck, Ergodox, and other layouts with nonstandard key sizes would require additional legends to be cut.

Unfortunately, I think you might be in the wrong here, every legend is specific to size AND profile. This is why, for the longest time SP didn't have Row 4 Shift keys. The way double shot works (At least at SP), it requires the legends to take the profile as well as the size of a keycap.

That was because they didn't have a row 4 2.75 unit mold. If it was a legend problem... there never would have been a problem. It would have just been made in any group buy.

[MOZ]

I'd still wager that the legends are row specific. Melissa from SP should be able to confirm.

[00zeRO]

I'd still wager that the legends are row specific. Melissa from SP should be able to confirm.

From my own experience, they are.

[CQ_Cumbers]

From Melissa on September 24, 2015:

We can use the same legends across rows assuming they are the same size keycap - we can't use a 1 space legend for a 1.25 space key though. Legends are also specific to the keycap family - i.e. SA legends cannot be used with DSA keys - the curvature of the keycap is different.

[MOZ]

From Melissa on September 24, 2015:

We can use the same legends across rows assuming they are the same size keycap - we can't use a 1 space legend for a 1.25 space key though. Legends are also specific to the keycap family - i.e. SA legends cannot be used with DSA keys - the curvature of the keycap is different.

That's nice to know.

[E.E.L. Ambiense]

Just wanted to jump in and say this is a gorgeously-designed typeface, and it really pops!  Personally I'd love a black and white contrasted set with this typeface used.  Sexy!

[MOZ]

I can actually see the font being quite popular for modern and retro-modern themes in the future.

[E.E.L. Ambiense]

Absolutely.  What I love about it is it utilizes the available strike-area of the key without looking overbearing, lop-sided, or 'gaudy'. 

[CMDR_Rockman]

Hi all! (first geekhack post) I'm super excited for this font! I couldn't wait to see it on some keys so I printed up some labels for my relegendables.



Here is the reddit post with the keyboard it's on: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/460ap9/atreus_blues/

[CQ_Cumbers]

Very cool, and a nice physical mockup of the legends. The actual ones do look a bit different to accomodate SP's doubleshot limitations (in general, they are smaller and have more rounded corners), but Eurostile on keycaps is always great to see! Just a tip, the SVG you posted is using an embedded font, so it won't look like Eurostile unless you explicitly select it in your font menu. If you want it to look the same to everyone, you should consider changing the letters into paths.

I believe Oobly is working on getting the fundraising set approved and the logistics figured out, so that we should be able to start in a week or two.

[My_Thoughts]

I believe Oobly is working on getting the fundraising set approved and the logistics figured out, so that we should be able to start in a week or two.

Excellent news   I am really excited about this, but slow and steady and getting it right is the way to go

[qazeqaz]

I have to say that I really like the way this one looks. I am interested.

[evangs]

I'm so pumped for this!

[onmybikedrunk]

This is awesome!  As an industrial designer, I have to say that the Olivetti Valentine is a pinnacle for product design for the era.  It's in all the Industrial Design books as well as on display at the MoMa in NYC and the Pompidou in Paris.  I am SOOO down for this set.  Very clever.

[Zanduby]

Hey CQ, any updates on this? Is this a dead IC now? I was really looking forward the keyset.

[Jedi]

Signature Plastics is so backed up right now and there is already a buy in progress not to mention a backlog in the pipe.  This one is also a bit more involved since in order to get the font legend made, we will possibly see a separate release to help fund the new legend.  But even with the separate release, there comes the issue of when that separate release even could be made.

TLDR; patience and this too will come, but its going to be a while (most likely)

[-musubi]

I like that that the fonts are pretty unique compared to all the other SA sets coming out, but I would definitely prefer having different colored alphas/modifiers

[CQ_Cumbers]

I like that that the fonts are pretty unique compared to all the other SA sets coming out, but I would definitely prefer having different colored alphas/modifiers

To be clear, the render in all black at the top of the first post is solely for previewing the font. This is not an interest check for an individual set, but an interest check for a new doubleshot font that may be used by other SA sets, the first of which will be Classic Space. The last picture on the first post is what the fundraising set we were planning to sell in order to fund the rest of the legends.

While this project is not dead, progress has been relatively slow recently, so it may still be a while before fundraising starts. What I would like to know is: what are your thoughts on the HAL themed fundraiser keycaps, as shown on the last picture on the first post? We were planning on using them as a reward for those who donated, but I don't know how many are interested in the HAL keys, and if they don't affect how many people donate it may be faster to just run a "sponsor-a-key" program, like Cherry Replica legends.

[00zeRO]

I like that that the fonts are pretty unique compared to all the other SA sets coming out, but I would definitely prefer having different colored alphas/modifiers

To be clear, the render in all black at the top of the first post is solely for previewing the font. This is not an interest check for an individual set, but an interest check for a new doubleshot font that may be used by other SA sets, the first of which will be Classic Space. The last picture on the first post is what the fundraising set we were planning to sell in order to fund the rest of the legends.

While this project is not dead, progress has been relatively slow recently, so it may still be a while before fundraising starts. What I would like to know is: what are your thoughts on the HAL themed fundraiser keycaps, as shown on the last picture on the first post? We were planning on using them as a reward for those who donated, but I don't know how many are interested in the HAL keys, and since Signature Plastics is pretty busy, if they don't affect how many people donate it may be faster to just run a "sponsor-a-key" program, like Cherry Replica legends.

'Um...I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave.'

Interested in a HAL in whatever channel you choose

[Jedi]

Has anyone approached Yanbo at Massdrop on the funding aspect?  Seems that with all the amazing SA and DSA sets that over reach MOQ, that this would be a no brainer for them to look into a bit more.  If for no other reason but to provide an even greater spread of legend designs for future drops (err I mean group buys).

[HouseofSuffering]

I would be down to help fund this, whenever it gets going. I really want that Lego Space set to happen.

[Dernubenfrieken]

Has anyone approached Yanbo at Massdrop on the funding aspect?  Seems that with all the amazing SA and DSA sets that over reach MOQ, that this would be a no brainer for them to look into a bit more.  If for no other reason but to provide an even greater spread of legend designs for future drops (err I mean group buys).

It also might be possible for them to spread out the cost over a few keyset drops, to defer the costs for their first set.

[CQ_Cumbers]

Has anyone approached Yanbo at Massdrop on the funding aspect?  Seems that with all the amazing SA and DSA sets that over reach MOQ, that this would be a no brainer for them to look into a bit more.  If for no other reason but to provide an even greater spread of legend designs for future drops (err I mean group buys).

The ideal was to run the HAL set on massdrop, but for that we'd have to both sell a lot of sets and arrange with Massdrop and/or SP to get a larger percentage of profits used to cut the font, as typical designer returns don't reach $6000 even for very successful sets. I'll ask about it.

[Jedi]

The ideal was to run the HAL set on massdrop, but for that we'd have to both sell a lot of sets and arrange with Massdrop and/or SP to get a larger percentage of profits used to cut the font, as typical designer returns don't reach $6000 even for very successful sets. I'll ask about it.

I agree with your strategy.  I was looking at it more from a "this is our idea, this is why we want to do this, this is what we need to help make it happen".  (When I say "we" and "our" I mean yours and others in the community who are working with you on this IC).  I think they (MassDrop) would take a very serious perspective on this in terms of working with making the project happen but without the same fund raiser approach you might be looking at without their (corporate marketing strategy) support.  I think this whole font IC is a fresh alternative to the same old same old font set that made you think about this from the beginning.  I also believe it, or an idea like it, would be useful for more projects to come (from both you and other community members who can utilize it).

[regack]

I like that that the fonts are pretty unique compared to all the other SA sets coming out, but I would definitely prefer having different colored alphas/modifiers

To be clear, the render in all black at the top of the first post is solely for previewing the font. This is not an interest check for an individual set, but an interest check for a new doubleshot font that may be used by other SA sets, the first of which will be Classic Space. The last picture on the first post is what the fundraising set we were planning to sell in order to fund the rest of the legends.

While this project is not dead, progress has been relatively slow recently, so it may still be a while before fundraising starts. What I would like to know is: what are your thoughts on the HAL themed fundraiser keycaps, as shown on the last picture on the first post? We were planning on using them as a reward for those who donated, but I don't know how many are interested in the HAL keys, and since Signature Plastics is pretty busy, if they don't affect how many people donate it may be faster to just run a "sponsor-a-key" program, like Cherry Replica legends.

'Um...I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave.'

Interested in a HAL in whatever channel you choose

I'm with 00zeRO, I'm in to support the font and the HAL keycaps, whichever way it goes. 

[heedpantsnow]

Love the font!

[Lipton]

Love it! I'm in

[Data]

Still interested in "buying" a key for this.  I know it would only be symbolic but it still seems totally worth it.    If there are ~120 of us throughout all the keyboard communities willing to throw down like that you could fund the entire key set that way.  No need for fundraisers, just knock it out "for the greater good".  We would need some assurances that you wouldn't disappear with the money.   

[evangs]

Still interested in "buying" a key for this.  I know it would only be symbolic but it still seems totally worth it.    If there are ~120 of us throughout all the keyboard communities willing to throw down like that you could fund the entire key set that way.  No need for fundraisers, just knock it out "for the greater good".  We would need some assurances that you wouldn't disappear with the money.   

I'd be in for this. Let's get this funded and underway

[Jedi]

Still interested in "buying" a key for this.  I know it would only be symbolic but it still seems totally worth it.    If there are ~120 of us throughout all the keyboard communities willing to throw down like that you could fund the entire key set that way.  No need for fundraisers, just knock it out "for the greater good".  We would need some assurances that you wouldn't disappear with the money.   

That's why I think we need a hard talk with MD.  Come on man, I still think they would come through for the community's sake.  They know we had a little "situation" in here, they also know how passionate we are on doing this.  They are pretty active over there across the pond, lets ask them to stir up the pot over there for keyboard science.  Has anyone asked Zambumon if he'd be interested in the font set?  Seems if we can get the two sets going with this font, that the talks would sweeten the deal.  We know that EngiCoder and ZSlane are up for next in queue and both at last I read are planning on going through Massdrop.  Maybe this is better as a PM, I just really want to see us move to GB, so I'll back down.

[hadees]

The HAL set looks dope, i'm in.

[Dernubenfrieken]

Still interested in "buying" a key for this.  I know it would only be symbolic but it still seems totally worth it.    If there are ~120 of us throughout all the keyboard communities willing to throw down like that you could fund the entire key set that way.  No need for fundraisers, just knock it out "for the greater good".  We would need some assurances that you wouldn't disappear with the money.   

That's why I think we need a hard talk with MD.  Come on man, I still think they would come through for the community's sake.  They know we had a little "situation" in here, they also know how passionate we are on doing this.  They are pretty active over there across the pond, lets ask them to stir up the pot over there for keyboard science.  Has anyone asked Zambumon if he'd be interested in the font set?  Seems if we can get the two sets going with this font, that the talks would sweeten the deal.  We know that EngiCoder and ZSlane are up for next in queue and both at last I read are planning on going through Massdrop.  Maybe this is better as a PM, I just really want to see us move to GB, so I'll back down.

I think the biggest issue is that with the SA backlog, and the popularity of reruns, this could take a LONG time to pay off over multiple sets. And we would have to negotiate use of the font itself for community GB's, which would make it even tougher to convince them.

[evangs]

I'm willing to donate to the new font being cut, with nothing in return.  I just want to see it happen and get some sets produced with the new font.  I'm sure others are willing to donate as well.

[chuckdee]

I'm willing to donate to the new font being cut, with nothing in return.  I just want to see it happen and get some sets produced with the new font.  I'm sure others are willing to donate as well.

Though getting something in return is nice, getting the initiative done is also nice.  In other words, I echo what's quoted above.

[japanitrat]

I'm willing to donate to the new font being cut, with nothing in return.  I just want to see it happen and get some sets produced with the new font.  I'm sure others are willing to donate as well.

Seconding that. I am willing to pay more/donate just for getting the legend molds done. Without something in return ... other than credit

[Scivive]

Love the font, I'm interested

[nateth]

I'll donate a letter.

[tofgerl]

Actually, that's a good idea. Donations for individual characters. A - brought to you by User1.

[evangs]

I've got E


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[My_Thoughts]

I'm not sure how the fonts will work.  For example if we get the @ symbol made I assume it can be scaled and then used in the various positions ISO sets use it?   Assuming this is the case I would also be up for funding a key

[Data]

I'm not sure how the fonts will work.  For example if we get the @ symbol made I assume it can be scaled and then used in the various positions ISO sets use it?   Assuming this is the case I would also be up for funding a key

It's not really done on a glyph-by-glyph basis.  It's done by keys.  The molds are steel or brass (most likely 440C stainless) so they will machine a mold for each key.  Key sizes are "fixed" for each profile, and they will generally cut a mold for each row profile 1-4 where appropriate.  Every legend is a single piece of molded plastic.  So for US ANSI "3#" key, they'll cut both glyphs into the legend mold.  Practically speaking, that means they are not scalable.  And for each variation of ISO a new mold is required to manufacture that key in the specified row profile.  So your UK ISO "3£" key, you can't just borrow the 3 from US ANSI "3#" and add the British Pound glyph.  You need a new mold.  So you might begin to understand why this venture is so complicated and expensive.

Edit: I should clarify - SP might have a typesetting rig they can use for custom legends within their existing font family.  For example, the "MASTER ARM" key I designed for Danger Zone might not have required a custom mold if they could make it using their Gorton Modified typeset -- like Gutenberg's "movable type", where they just arrange individual letters to create the legend mold.  But that's with an existing font face and doesn't really apply to the Space Extended project.   

I also have no idea if such a rig exists for injection molding. 

[My_Thoughts]

I'm not sure how the fonts will work.  For example if we get the @ symbol made I assume it can be scaled and then used in the various positions ISO sets use it?   Assuming this is the case I would also be up for funding a key

It's not really done on a glyph-by-glyph basis.  It's done by keys.  The molds are steel or brass (most likely 440C stainless) so they will machine a mold for each key.  Key sizes are "fixed" for each profile, and they will generally cut a mold for each row profile 1-4 where appropriate.  Every legend is a single piece of molded plastic.  So for US ANSI "3#" key, they'll cut both glyphs into the legend mold.  Practically speaking, that means they are not scalable.  And for each variation of ISO a new mold is required to manufacture that key in the specified row profile.  So your UK ISO "3£" key, you can't just borrow the 3 from US ANSI "3#" and add the British Pound glyph.  You need a new mold.  So you might begin to understand why this venture is so complicated and expensive.

Edit: I should clarify - SP might have a typesetting rig they can use for custom legends within their existing font family.  For example, the "MASTER ARM" key I designed for Danger Zone might not have required a custom mold if they could make it using their Gorton Modified typeset -- like Gutenberg's "movable type", where they just arrange individual letters to create the legend mold.  But that's with an existing font face and doesn't really apply to the Space Extended project.   

I also have no idea if such a rig exists for injection molding. 

Thanks for the detailed reply   It seems we will need extra keys for all the ISO set making everything bigger and harder to do.  I'm still happy to pay for a key to be made, but going down that route we will 100 people to get involved.

[THX1138b]

I guess this fell through? Surely Eurostile or Microgramma fonts are the whole point of SA spherical keycaps??

[Keynami]

I am a huge fan of the white-on-black render. I would go for that one if it were available