Print Page - OPTIMIZED MALTRON LIKE LAYOUT TO USE ON THE KINESIS ADVANTAGE!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry about that ridiculous title for the thread; I just wanted to make sure lots of geeks out there read it, so I could get better feed back.

I have a kinesis advantage in the mail right now (you might remember the long wait for yours ^-^). The kinesis is a great keyboard for ergonomics, but using it with a normal QWERTY layout is kind of lame and because the design is very similar to maltron I thought that I would use their layout. It's pretty good, but after a few seconds it went the way of dvorak, IE: why the hell is the L key on the pinky?

A few other problems with the layout drove me away from it, so I decided not to pursue the familiar path of moving L, Z and few other letters around. That's been done *many* times from the threads I have found all around the web; and while the results are always great, they could be better.

So I wanted to drop everything but the concept of the E key under the left thumb and move from there. After a few hours in a spread sheet checking letter frequencies, comparing against common letter combinations and the most common english words - balancing the layout between hands and getting the alternation down as well as getting the finger with even work loads based on their strength - blah, blah, blah...

I ended up with this layout:

BGUWP YMCFV
RNITL DAOSH
;QX,. KJZ'/

E _

Then it was off to test the home row. The results were great:

A list of 274,765 words.

(11 key home row)

My-layout: 15,368
maltron: 11,724

(10 key home row)

colemak: 9,252
dvorak: 4,915
qwerty: 274

Based on the info from this url: http://www.litscape.com/word_tools_mammoth_uncensored/words_using_these_letters_only.php

This is all well and good and I wrote the autohotkey script and was ready to roll with my new baby, but I was ahead of myself. My kinesis wasn't here. And I hadn't had anyone else look over the layout. That's where I hoped you guys would help me. Is there anything wrong you can see? Any tips for improvement? Has anyone come up with a similar solution in the past, and if so what was it?

If anyone wants the autohotkey script just say the word. Thanks beforehand for the help.

Sorry, this font mangled the layout a lot - copy to a monospace font for clarification.

Quote from: NAMESPACE on Fri, 22 August 2014, 20:11:16

Sorry, this font mangled the layout a lot - copy to a monospace font for clarification.

BGUWP YMCFV
RNITL DAOSH
;QX,. KJZ'/

E _

much better. you can use the {font=courier} tag to change fonts. or just use the

Code: [Select]

[code]tags.

Looks like a good layout! Maybe I'll give it a try on my ergodox sometime.

Thank's for that fix, I'm new to geekhack (13 posts, right? ;D).

It would be amazing to hear how the layout works for you.

I should look into this for coding and modifier key layouts that are nicer than Dvorak. Seems like you put in an impressive amount of time!

I put about ten hours, not much. Most of it was time wasted trying to figure out how to work LB calc. I suck at it and excel.

If you want something new similar in concept to dvorak check this out:

BFCYW PMUGV
RSNTL DAOIH
;ZX., KJQ/'

E _

This one follows a dvorak like design, with the vowels under the right hand to increase alteration. Not counting the thumbs it has only a .93% difference in usage between the hands, while dvorak has 55% of keystrokes on the right hand.

I have not done enough testing, but it may prove to be better than the first. Just like the first 77% of keystrokes are predicted to take place on the home row! The bottom row is also optimized and should only be 3.5% of total keystrokes.

Quote from: NAMESPACE on Fri, 22 August 2014, 23:14:22

The bottom row is also optimized and should only be 3.5% of total keystrokes.

Good, I hate that row.

If dvorak has taught me anything, it's that.

Quote from: dorkvader on Sat, 23 August 2014, 00:03:24

Quote from: NAMESPACE on Fri, 22 August 2014, 23:14:22
The bottom row is also optimized and should only be 3.5% of total keystrokes.
Good, I hate that row. If dvorak has taught me anything, it's that.

The bottom row is only bad because a standard keyboard has a terrible stagger (the whole left hand bottom row is awful, and 'n', a very common key, requires a somewhat awkward movement in a QWERTY layout; the 'm' ',' '.' '/' and left shift keys are pretty reasonable). On a column-staggered keyboard, I find the bottom row just as easy as the top row.

I made a layer for fun on my Poker II with a modified Dvorak layout, so far so good. I'll post up a layout once it's a little more refined

Home row.. is probably one of the MOST pervasive misconception in the world of keyboarding..

the natural resting position of the fingers is NOT a straight line across the home row..

If in fact you are lined up.. that's because you were taught to do so... Completely relax your hands and witness how Home row is Completely NOT how your fingers naturally lay.

awefjio; THAT is the true home row.

Quote from: tp4tissue on Sat, 23 August 2014, 03:51:48

Home row.. is probably one of the MOST pervasive misconception in the world of keyboarding..

the natural resting position of the fingers is NOT a straight line across the home row..

If in fact you are lined up.. that's because you were taught to do so... Completely relax your hands and witness how Home row is Completely NOT how your fingers naturally lay.

awefjio; THAT is the true home row.

Not the way I rest my fingers, so as to have the tips of my fingers rest comfortably on the key. I play a lot of guitar, with which I fret the strings with the tips of my finger; my muscle memory best serves me via the in-line home row that you mentioned. Now the fact that they are staggered is something that I've never had much love for.
I'm Jonesing to try out someone's Ergodox, or that Axiom that AcidFire is making. Maybe that will bend my perception of my beloved in-line home row.

It will be interesting to see how you get on with the layout.

The corpus you're using, does it reflect your typing?

Home row.. is probably one of the MOST pervasive misconception in the world of keyboarding..

the natural resting position of the fingers is NOT a straight line across the home row..

If in fact you are lined up.. that's because you were taught to do so... Completely relax your hands and witness how Home row is Completely NOT how your fingers naturally lay.

awefjio; THAT is the true home row.

About the home row; on the kinesis advantage I designed the layout for the keys have been adjusted to finger length, so the concept of a home row works very well, the fingers are in the natural position. The keys are also not staggered.

The bottom row is only bad because a standard keyboard has a terrible stagger (the whole left hand bottom row is awful, and 'n', a very common key, requires a somewhat awkward movement in a QWERTY layout; the 'm' ',' '.' '/' and left shift keys are pretty reasonable). On a column-staggered keyboard, I find the bottom row just as easy as the top row.

You're right, the bottom row on a matrix style keyboard like the kinesis is decent enough, however it is also slower to use than the top row. Minimizing keystrokes on the bottom row will speed the typist up.

The corpus you're using, does it reflect your typing?

Sadly, no. I't generic, but I assumed when making the layout that the most common english words and letters would work for me. It might also help other people who are interested in the layout as it is not adapted to only one person.

Imagine trying out a layout made by Faulkner or (even worse) James Joyce :eek:.

I've been working at the layout have have again improved it to this:

BWUGP YFCMV
RNITL DAOSH
;QXJ, .KZ'/

E _

Also, if anyone wants to think of a fun/funny name for it that would be great.

I'm more curious as to what you've actually done to evaluate how effective that layout is. You talk about frequency of usage of the rows and left/right balancing but don't talk about alternation, row skips, inward/outward rolling motions, etc.

There are many people who try to come up with their own layouts and these days they tend to go through a lot of heavy analysis when doing so. See here for two examples:
http://mathematicalmulticore.wordpress.com/the-keyboard-layout-project/
http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/

While I don't mean to discourage you or to say that your layout might not actually be good, I just want to emphasize the fact that sometimes sacrifices in one aspect can result in large gains in another.

Also as tp4tissue mentioned, the center row on a keyboard is not necessarily the best. However, that being said, some matrix keyboards don't have their keys on straight rows, but instead have the rows at different heights to correspond to finger length. Another thing worth looking at is the Workman layout, which highlights the fact that it's perhaps easier for the index fingers to reach down and inward (V and N keys) than just inward (G and H keys). Similarly for the middle fingers it's very easy to reach upwards whereas for the pinky fingers it's probably easier to reach downwards. Generally speaking, consideration of human factors is important more than just saying "home row is better than everything else and bottom row is the worst."

Good luck with your layout!

For analysis I think the AdNW software is good: http://www.adnw.de/index.php?n=Main.HomePage

I have also used this to get a quick idea of my layout's effectiveness in various areas (http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/main), but the AdNW software actually allows you to apply your own factors to the design and let it optimise the layout for you.

I'm more curious as to what you've actually done to evaluate how effective that layout is. You talk about frequency of usage of the rows and left/right balancing but don't talk about alternation, row skips, inward/outward rolling motions, etc.

You're right. I haven't given enough detail or done enough testing, but the layout is nowhere near as foolproof as something like colemak or QGMLWB which have tons of tests to back them up. Also when you refer to alternation, do you mean hand alternation or finger alternation? I have looked at the keyboard for both via means of common english words and letter combinations (but again, I'm no professional). The frequency in the usage of each row is very simple, its just the frequency of the letters in english with the frequency of common words factored in.

There are many people who try to come up with their own layouts and these days they tend to go through a lot of heavy analysis when doing so. See here for two examples:

Thanks for recommending these sites; you're dead right, my layout needs better analysis as I have already shown by being able to create a newer, slightly improved version in just an hour or two.

Also as tp4tissue mentioned, the center row on a keyboard is not necessarily the best. However, that being said, some matrix keyboards don't have their keys on straight rows, but instead have the rows at different heights to correspond to finger length.

Again, I designed this layout for ONLY maltron and kinesis style keyboards with none staggered keys adjusted to finger lengths, it will not function properly on anything else, nor delivered the promised advantages (which again I haven't tested enough to be 100% sure of).

Also as tp4tissue mentioned, the center row on a keyboard is not necessarily the best. However, that being said, some matrix keyboards don't have their keys on straight rows, but instead have the rows at different heights to correspond to finger length. Another thing worth looking at is the Workman layout, which highlights the fact that it's perhaps easier for the index fingers to reach down and inward (V and N keys) than just inward (G and H keys). Similarly for the middle fingers it's very easy to reach upwards whereas for the pinky fingers it's probably easier to reach downwards. Generally speaking, consideration of human factors is important more than just saying "home row is better than everything else and bottom row is the worst."

I like the idea of the workman layout even though some people just dismiss it as hipster, however, colemak is slightly more efficient than workman and follows the old style method of ignoring the bottom row as much as possible. But the idea is worth testing out. I have already designed the layout so that the index fingers can get the most out of the bottom row with the period and comma in those positions (just updated in the second modification of the layout).

The pinkies - they were a touch challenge when I designed this layout. I decided that it was easier to have then stretch up rather than down due to the adjusted finger lengths of the kinesis. Whether this was a good decision I don't yet know.

Generally speaking, consideration of human factors is important more than just saying "home row is better than everything else and bottom row is the worst."

I'm certainly not that silly as to just believe what other people have said about the home row as true, but I do still believe, as the fingers do not have to move to press the keys on it that a high frequency home row it the best plan for a layout. Colemak and QGMLWB have already proven that as far as I am concerned.

About the bottom row again. I believed when designing the layout that it was harder to have a finger move downward than up. I stick by that still. But if I am proven wrong I wont whine about it, just change the layout and keep redoing the math.

oneproduct: A personal thanks for your post. You mentioned a lot a real issues and made take a good think at them. Also, while I already have visited both websites you linked, I hadnt taken to bottom row so seriously until you brought it up. Back to the spreadsheet!

Oobly: thanks for the links. This might be just what I was looking for to improve the layout! I'll run the analysis and post in a day or so.

Lot's of guys have sent me some great links of layout analyzing software (thanks a million) but I cant get it to work for this layout because the layout is built specifically for matrix keyboards with adjusted fingers lengths and to hands the left left thumb over the E key.

None of the layout analyzes can give me accurate information, they just do standard keyboards as far as I know.

I get the feeling that the only people who have done something like this are the maltron guy who designed their layout. I'm looking into the workman method for bottom row optimization as well as seeing how they analyzed the matrix layout layout.

If any can find layout software capable of analyzing this layout properly I would be in nirvana.

After doing a reexamining of layout analyzers I have found one supposedly capable which I managed to miss the first time.

https://github.com/michael****ens/Typing

I will tests on this layout for now while searching for others, I have also send a message to Martin Krzywinski, the guy running carpalx, to see if his optimizer can handle the thumbs.

This thread will probably be quiet for a few days.

Quote from: NAMESPACE on Sat, 23 August 2014, 21:49:21

Lot's of guys have sent me some great links of layout analyzing software (thanks a million) but I cant get it to work for this layout because the layout is built specifically for matrix keyboards with adjusted fingers lengths and to hands the left left thumb over the E key.

None of the layout analyzes can give me accurate information, they just do standard keyboards as far as I know.

I get the feeling that the only people who have done something like this are the maltron guy who designed their layout. I'm looking into the workman method for bottom row optimization as well as seeing how they analyzed the matrix layout layout.

If any can find layout software capable of analyzing this layout properly I would be in nirvana.

Got to here: http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/config

Select one of the ErgoDox layouts and replace the characters with your own layout. That's what I did for my custom DIY board layouts. Got really good results from that, considering the limitations of the analysis. Note that it doesn't take into account factors like making and fixing mistakes (using backspace or Del) and it expects 2 shift keys where I use only one, on my left thumb.

Or download the Python scripts for AdNW optimisation, create your own layout file and run it. You can specify the thumb keys, what type of layout it is (vertical stagger with thumb shift or other thumb keys, etc.). You can even adjust the weighting of different factors for your own personal case if you like (like making the bottom row lower value than upper row, etc.). It's very powerful, but rather daunting.

Quote from: dorkvader on Fri, 22 August 2014, 21:14:03

Quote from: NAMESPACE on Fri, 22 August 2014, 20:11:16
Sorry, this font mangled the layout a lot - copy to a monospace font for clarification.

BGUWP YMCFV
RNITL DAOSH
;QX,. KJZ'/

E _

much better. you can use the {font=courier} tag to change fonts. or just use the
Code: [Select]
[code]tags.

Looks like a good layout! Maybe I'll give it a try on my ergodox sometime.

I just cannot buy this. Also I notice there are not commonly used letter combinations next to each other. Such as On, As. So you cannot roll your fingers quickly. But I do not own a Kinesis so I can't try.

Quote from: dantan on Sun, 24 August 2014, 12:53:17

Quote from: dorkvader on Fri, 22 August 2014, 21:14:03
Quote from: NAMESPACE on Fri, 22 August 2014, 20:11:16
Sorry, this font mangled the layout a lot - copy to a monospace font for clarification.

BGUWP YMCFV
RNITL DAOSH
;QX,. KJZ'/

E _

much better. you can use the {font=courier} tag to change fonts. or just use the
Code: [Select]
[code]tags.

Looks like a good layout! Maybe I'll give it a try on my ergodox sometime.

I just cannot buy this. Also I notice there are not commonly used letter combinations next to each other. Such as On, As. So you cannot roll your fingers quickly. But I do not own a Kinesis so I can't try.

That's because it's optimised for alternation over rolls like Dvorak. Colemak is optimised for inward rolls and it actually ends up being a bit of a PITA due to consecutive same hand letters. There isn't enough concrete data to prove it yet, but alternation is faster and less fatiguing than rolls for me and I suspect most other people too.

Quote from: jacobolus on Sat, 23 August 2014, 03:37:11

Quote from: dorkvader on Sat, 23 August 2014, 00:03:24
Quote from: NAMESPACE on Fri, 22 August 2014, 23:14:22
The bottom row is also optimized and should only be 3.5% of total keystrokes.
Good, I hate that row. If dvorak has taught me anything, it's that.
The bottom row is only bad because a standard keyboard has a terrible stagger (the whole left hand bottom row is awful, and 'n', a very common key, requires a somewhat awkward movement in a QWERTY layout; the 'm' ',' '.' '/' and left shift keys are pretty reasonable). On a column-staggered keyboard, I find the bottom row just as easy as the top row.

on my ergodox and all my other column keyboards, I still hate hitting the bottom row. The kinesis wasn't as bad as the rest but still worse than other rows.

Quote from: Oobly on Sun, 24 August 2014, 13:21:21

Colemak is optimised for inward rolls and it actually ends up being a bit of a PITA due to consecutive same hand letters. There isn't enough concrete data to prove it yet, but alternation is faster and less fatiguing than rolls for me and I suspect most other people too.

I think one reason why colemak has become so popular with its rolls is that alternation leads to more errors when a person is just starting to learn the layout or become proficient with typing. I remember a time in my dvorak learning when just about every other word had two letters reversed from the alternation. Now I'm just fine though.

That Maltron 'guy' is called Lillian...

Did you know the layout dates back to 1976?

I think one reason why colemak has become so popular with its rolls is that alternation leads to more errors when a person is just starting to learn the layout or become proficient with typing. I remember a time in my dvorak learning when just about every other word had two letters reversed from the alternation. Now I'm just fine though.

Too true. I created the layout for faster, more ergonomic typing and when with the dvorak theory to try and reduce typing errors. I also based a lot of my work off of the published maltron research (http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info). It looses ZXCV, the punctuation group ,/. and most letter have changed hands. It was made for speed, not ease of adoption. I'm going to be pulling me hair out trying to learn it in the next few months :confused:.

Anyway, I have been working with the layout and putting it through the works with the software you guys recommended. I haven't gotten it right yet as it keeps telling me that the layout is almost as bad as QWERTY, which I don't think is possible with a home row that strong, no matter what my mistakes.

I have reoptimized the layout and come up with something I believe to be better, focusing on the theory that the pointer fingers can more easily access the bottom row of the keyboard and that the pinkies are still difficult to use on the top row. The result? I think you guys will like this. And no, it wasn't on purpose.

QMCFJ XGUMWZ
SITHD LRAON
;VK,Y PB.'/

E _

You can now type more ergonomically with the full power of the dark side.

If anyone wants to pledge themselves to this layout they will find the path most rewarding.

That Maltron 'guy' is called Lillian...

Did you know the layout dates back to 1976?

I know. It's a fossil - but not like dvorak and qwerty yet.

I love the idea of the layout, E under the thumb, but the L key is what put me off dvorak as well. It's just not really optimized, which is the reason I made all these new variations.

And for those that loath the bottom row, here is the version of the SITH layout that minimizes its usage:

QMCFJ XGUMWZ
SITHD LRAON
;QXJ, .KZ'/

E _

I'm ending my work as I don't have the time to keep testing my layouts.

Many of them performed well on layout analyzers. Others sucked. None were good enough (along a few were *very* close) to supplant the maltron layout despite the L pinky and other problems.

But when all is said and done I had a lot of fun making them.

The second problem that drove me away from these layouts was learning the new layout, I would rather train myself from maltron's free courses than have to go it alone. To see and benefit from results sooner rather than later. Maybe I'll come back to this one day. Thanks for all the help, links and healthy skepticism. :thumb:

This is a worthy pursuit, designing a new layout is valuable, especially if we can find one that really is better for the majority of people.

The problem is that there are very many factors to consider. I came up with a few I thought were great until I analysed them. The analysis pointed out the areas I had neglected. With respect to your design, not all home row fingers are equal. In particular I think yours overloads the right pinkie a little and doesn't load the index fingers enough. On the other hand, Colemak overloads the index fingers... But you make a small change and the whole layout doesn't work well... It's HARD to design a good layout.

In the end I modified the AdNW BU-Teck layout and came up with this:

BUQ.X PCLMF
HIEAO DTRNS
KY ', - JGWVZ

It tests well in analysers and works well in practice, although I am still a bit slower on my ergo board using this layout than I am in QWERTY on a normal one, but I've been using QWERTY 30 years every day, so it's quite ingrained.

After using it for a while I came up with a small modification and I think this one is a little better:

BU ,.Q PCLMF
HIEAO DTRNS
KY ' -X JGWVZ

I haven't got round to proper real-world testing of the new version yet, but it works very well in the analysers and the reasons for the changes mean it should also work better in actual use.

In the end, however, the far bigger factor in terms of ergonomics and injuries is changing the physical form of the board, rather than the character layout. Just switching to a Maltron or Kinesis advantage will do more for the long term health of your arms, wrists, hands and fingers than changing to a better character layout on a "normal" staggered rows board. Of course it's best to do both, especially if you have the chance to switch both at the same time, since that impacts your skills on a normal QWERTY board the least during the learning period.

My typing speed on QWERTY has actually increased while I've been learning my new layout on my ergo board, since I pay a bit more attention to it now.

Here is your layout for the patorjk analyser (with a few leftover symbols, etc from the layout I modified for it):

Code: [Select]

{
    "label": "NAMESPACE Maltron",
    "author": "NAMESPACE",
    "authorUrl": "",
    "fingerStart": {
        "1": 29,
        "2": 30,
        "3": 31,
        "4": 32,
        "5": 66,
        "6": 75,
        "7": 35,
        "8": 36,
        "9": 37,
        "10": 38,
        "11": -1,
        "false": -1
    },
    "keyboardType": "ergodox",
    "labels": {
        "8": "Bkspc",
        "20": "Caps"
    },
    "keys": [
        {
            "primary": 96,
            "finger": 1,
            "id": 0,
            "shift": 126,
            "altGr": -1,
            "shiftAltGr": -1
        },
        {
            "primary": 49,
            "shift": 33,
            "finger": 1,
            "id": 1
        },
        {
            "primary": 50,
            "shift": 64,
            "finger": 2,
            "id": 2
        },
        {
            "primary": 51,
            "shift": 35,
            "finger": 3,
            "id": 3
        },
        {
            "primary": 52,
            "shift": 36,
            "finger": 4,
            "id": 4
        },
        {
            "primary": 53,
            "shift": 37,
            "finger": 4,
            "id": 5
        },
        {
            "primary": 61,
            "shift": 43,
            "finger": 4,
            "id": 6,
            "altGr": -1,
            "shiftAltGr": -1
        },
        {
            "primary": 45,
            "shift": 95,
            "finger": 7,
            "id": 7,
            "altGr": -1,
            "shiftAltGr": -1
        },
        {
            "primary": 54,
            "shift": 94,
            "finger": 7,
            "id": 8
        },
        {
            "primary": 55,
            "shift": 38,
            "finger": 7,
            "id": 9
        },
        {
            "primary": 56,
            "shift": 42,
            "finger": 8,
            "id": 10
        },
        {
            "primary": 57,
            "shift": 40,
            "finger": 9,
            "id": 11
        },
        {
            "primary": 48,
            "shift": 41,
            "finger": 10,
            "id": 12
        },
        {
            "primary": 92,
            "finger": 10,
            "id": 13,
            "shift": 124,
            "altGr": -1,
            "shiftAltGr": -1
        },
        {
            "primary": 91,
            "finger": 1,
            "id": 14,
            "shift": 123,
            "altGr": -1,
            "shiftAltGr": -1
        },
        {
            "primary": 113,
            "shift": 81,
            "finger": 1,
            "id": 15
        },
        {
            "primary": 109,
            "shift": 77,
            "finger": 2,
            "id": 16,
            "altGr": -1,
            "shiftAltGr": -1
        },
        {
            "primary": 99,
            "shift": 67,
            "finger": 3,
            "id": 17,
            "altGr": -1,
            "shiftAltGr": -1
        },
        {
            "primary": 102,
            "shift": 70,
            "finger": 4,
            "id": 18,
            "altGr": -1,
            "shiftAltGr": -1
        },
        {
            "primary": 106,
            "shift": 74,
            "finger": 4,
            "id": 19,
            "altGr": -1,
            "shiftAltGr": -1
        },
        {
            "primary": 8,
            "finger": 4,
            "id": 20,
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        {
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        {
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        },
        {
            "primary": -1,
            "finger": 6,
            "id": 72,
            "shift": -1,
            "altGr": -1,
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        },
        {
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            "shift": -1,
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        },
        {
            "primary": 13,
            "finger": 6,
            "id": 74,
            "shift": -1,
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        },
        {
            "primary": 32,
            "finger": 6,
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            "shift": -1,
            "altGr": -1,
            "shiftAltGr": -1
        }
    ]
}

And here is mine:

Code: [Select]

{
    "label": "Ergodox BU-Teck Mod",
    "fingerStart": {
        "1": 29,
        "2": 30,
        "3": 31,
        "4": 32,
        "5": 74,
        "6": 67,
        "7": 35,
        "8": 36,
        "9": 37,
        "10": 38,
        "11": -1,
        "false": -1
    },
    "keyboardType": "ergodox",
    "author": "Stephen Keen",
    "authorUrl": "",
    "moreInfoUrl": "",
    "moreInfoText": "",
    "keys": [
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        {
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}

You can "Import" them in the configuration of the patorjk tool to different slots and select 4 others to analyse them against before running the analysis on the text you add to the first page.

Ooby, your layouts seem really great when I ran them through. And I agree that a great will help loads of people - but I was most interested in the Maltron concept of the E key under the left thumb, a key that is completely wasted on standard keyboards. And the best layout I have run through in there specific "genre" is still the maltron layout. My goal was ergonomics with the keyboard, but also to be able to use a layout to type faster than on a common qwerty board - and the golden key to that seemed the E under the thumb, meaning an extra letter could be added to the home row and a zillion different letter combinations and blocks could be eliminated.

Designing layouts is hard work! Do you have any more? What do you think about the E thumb design? I was thinking it might be possible to improve maltron layout by moving a few letters around, but so far no luck - that could save weeks of work, and life has caught up to me in the last few days.

ps - one last funny thing, the results I have gotten from different simulations are very contradictory. You have the old keyboard-layout-analyzer telling me colemak is the best while carpalx is saying QGMLWB kicks its butt around the track. Also, few simulators can handle the E thumb designed without getting very hacky, and I'm not sure of the results of just one sim.

I don’t think E on the thumb is necessarily the best use of the space, if you plan to do more with your computer than type prose. Putting shift, delete, spacebar, return, fn keys, other modifier keys, etc. on the thumb is super nice.

If you have one thumb with space, shift, tab, and the other thumb with delete, fn, return, that's already 3 keys on each thumb. You can cut down dramatically on the overall number of keys on the keyboard if you integrate navigation, arrows, symbols, even numbers into shifted layers. Using a thumb key to access those layers is very convenient, better than using another finger for it IMO.

Oh - should have said, I do intend to use it for only prose. I also plan on the foot pedals for shift, ctrl, alt - so I will still be able to use emacs like a dream.

Has anyone used the foot pedals before?

I think shift on a foot pedal sounds like a bother, but try it out and report back!

Great!

I was going to echo what jacobolus mentioned. I've thought about putting a letter on a thumb key before, but having backspace there might be even more beneficial. Of course it depends on your error rate when typing. Do a few typing tests that can record your accuracy and then use that frequency to determine if you should put backspace or a letter on the thumb. I think for many people the backspace key would be more frequent than a 9th home letter.

Looking at a table of letter frequencies on Wikipedia, you might consider
e t a o i n s h
as the eight keys beneath your fingers.
R is then the next most frequent at 5.987%.
So if your accuracy when typing is around 94% or less, then backspace might be a better bet.

Quote from: oneproduct on Wed, 27 August 2014, 22:52:21

I was going to echo what jacobolus mentioned. I've thought about putting a letter on a thumb key before, but having backspace there might be even more beneficial. Of course it depends on your error rate when typing. Do a few typing tests that can record your accuracy and then use that frequency to determine if you should put backspace or a letter on the thumb. I think for many people the backspace key would be more frequent than a 9th home letter.

Looking at a table of letter frequencies on Wikipedia, you might consider
e t a o i n s h
as the eight keys beneath your fingers.
R is then the next most frequent at 5.987%.
So if your accuracy when typing is around 94% or less, then backspace might be a better bet.

Dvorak has that home row, save for jumbled about a bit, and with the I where the G resides on a QWERTY.

Quote from: Hundrakia on Wed, 27 August 2014, 23:21:21

Quote from: oneproduct on Wed, 27 August 2014, 22:52:21
I was going to echo what jacobolus mentioned. I've thought about putting a letter on a thumb key before, but having backspace there might be even more beneficial. Of course it depends on your error rate when typing. Do a few typing tests that can record your accuracy and then use that frequency to determine if you should put backspace or a letter on the thumb. I think for many people the backspace key would be more frequent than a 9th home letter.

Looking at a table of letter frequencies on Wikipedia, you might consider
e t a o i n s h
as the eight keys beneath your fingers.
R is then the next most frequent at 5.987%.
So if your accuracy when typing is around 94% or less, then backspace might be a better bet.

Dvorak has that home row, save for jumbled about a bit, and with the I where the G resides on a QWERTY.

Colemak also has those as the home row in a different order, along with D.

Quote from: cruzin on Thu, 28 August 2014, 00:02:18

Quote from: Hundrakia on Wed, 27 August 2014, 23:21:21
Quote from: oneproduct on Wed, 27 August 2014, 22:52:21
I was going to echo what jacobolus mentioned. I've thought about putting a letter on a thumb key before, but having backspace there might be even more beneficial. Of course it depends on your error rate when typing. Do a few typing tests that can record your accuracy and then use that frequency to determine if you should put backspace or a letter on the thumb. I think for many people the backspace key would be more frequent than a 9th home letter.

Looking at a table of letter frequencies on Wikipedia, you might consider
e t a o i n s h
as the eight keys beneath your fingers.
R is then the next most frequent at 5.987%.
So if your accuracy when typing is around 94% or less, then backspace might be a better bet.

Dvorak has that home row, save for jumbled about a bit, and with the I where the G resides on a QWERTY.

Colemak also has those as the home row in a different order, along with D.

And so does my layout along with R.

Although I agree that on a normal keyboard the left thumb is wasted, on an ergonomic board with thumb buttons you can assign functions to the thumbs so it isn't. I find it best having all the letters on the fingers and reserving the thumb keys for different tasks, like Shift, Backspace, Tab, Fn, Space, Enter, Ctrl and Alt. It helps me compartmentalise the different functions of each finger (thumbs for all mods and non-character functions except Esc and Del - I have a dedicated button for each of those, fingers for all characters). I keep all the vowels on the left side for the same reason (including semi-vowels like Y and H).

It has taken me a long time and a LOT of work to develop the layout, but I believe it could probably be improved just a hair still, although I am happy enough with the current version to leave it as-is until I have time to analyse it with more tools and work on it again. The symbols and numbers / F keys layers in particular. I think I will end up with 2 versions. One for numpad people and one for number row people.

I'm working on a Finnish / Swedish version of the layout, too.

Quote from: NAMESPACE on Mon, 25 August 2014, 19:43:43

Has anyone used the foot pedals before?

I did and it was a failure. My fingers are quicker and more flexible than my leg. Maybe you can do it with a lot of training. Let us know :)

Quote from: vvp on Thu, 28 August 2014, 04:24:00

Quote from: NAMESPACE on Mon, 25 August 2014, 19:43:43
Has anyone used the foot pedals before?
I did and it was a failure. My fingers are quicker and more flexible than my leg. Maybe you can do it with a lot of training. Let us know :)

Crap. I'll have to try it myself when my foot pedal arrives...

Quote from: oneproduct on Wed, 27 August 2014, 22:52:21

I was going to echo what jacobolus mentioned. I've thought about putting a letter on a thumb key before, but having backspace there might be even more beneficial. Of course it depends on your error rate when typing. Do a few typing tests that can record your accuracy and then use that frequency to determine if you should put backspace or a letter on the thumb. I think for many people the backspace key would be more frequent than a 9th home letter.

Looking at a table of letter frequencies on Wikipedia, you might consider
e t a o i n s h
as the eight keys beneath your fingers.
R is then the next most frequent at 5.987%.
So if your accuracy when typing is around 94% or less, then backspace might be a better bet.

My layouts all placed the E key under the left thumb, which I believe was faster, as it is the second most used key on the keyboard above space. Back space is the third most used - my error rate, even under qwerty has been fine (I had 100 wpm with a 95% accuracy when I checked a year or two ago) - rather than hitting the backspace multiple times I usually just hit C-backspace to zap the entire word in emacs or whatever software I am in, then retype the word. That key combination is very fast on a kinesis with ctrl right above the backspace key.

----------------------------

BTW: for anyone new finding this thread, please dont waste time with my layouts! They are not fully optimized. I have not yet achieved that goal of creating a more efficient maltron style layout.

----------------------------

one last thing; you guy mentioned your own layouts, I would like to see them if you want to share! Would it be a good idea to create a new thread that could be used in the future for any wanting to share or receive feedback on a layout? Does such a thread already exist?

Layouts are mostly posted in the Ergonomics subforum.

Quote from: Oobly on Fri, 29 August 2014, 02:53:06

Layouts are mostly posted in the Ergonomics subforum.

Ok - just checking.

Quote from: Oobly on Sun, 24 August 2014, 13:21:21

Quote from: dantan on Sun, 24 August 2014, 12:53:17
Quote from: dorkvader on Fri, 22 August 2014, 21:14:03
Quote from: NAMESPACE on Fri, 22 August 2014, 20:11:16
Sorry, this font mangled the layout a lot - copy to a monospace font for clarification.

BGUWP YMCFV
RNITL DAOSH
;QX,. KJZ'/

E _

much better. you can use the {font=courier} tag to change fonts. or just use the
Code: [Select]
[code]tags.

Looks like a good layout! Maybe I'll give it a try on my ergodox sometime.

I just cannot buy this. Also I notice there are not commonly used letter combinations next to each other. Such as On, As. So you cannot roll your fingers quickly. But I do not own a Kinesis so I can't try.

That's because it's optimised for alternation over rolls like Dvorak. Colemak is optimised for inward rolls and it actually ends up being a bit of a PITA due to consecutive same hand letters. There isn't enough concrete data to prove it yet, but alternation is faster and less fatiguing than rolls for me and I suspect most other people too.

Something I discovered from my experiments:

I am currently using a modified Colemak on a Tipro matrix keyboard. IE it's a bit like Ergodox except with the alphas split on either side of the Tipro.

One hand typing is the most incredible pain I can imagine. Rarely do I have more than 2-3 letters on the same side of the keyboard. Often my hand has to migrate between left and right sides.

But what this says is that Colemak has considerable alternation also. When you try typing one-handed you will be able to figure how much alternation there really is in your layout.

Quote from: NAMESPACE on Thu, 28 August 2014, 15:39:37

Quote from: vvp on Thu, 28 August 2014, 04:24:00
Quote from: NAMESPACE on Mon, 25 August 2014, 19:43:43
Has anyone used the foot pedals before?
I did and it was a failure. My fingers are quicker and more flexible than my leg. Maybe you can do it with a lot of training. Let us know :)

Crap. I'll have to try it myself when my foot pedal arrives...

It might work for someone, who can get proficient in drumming. I certainly can't, and most cheap foot switches are awful to make things worse.

I've had some time off recently and tested this layout with http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/main. It works very well and beats maltron in all areas. It also goes easy on the pinkies. It's been tested against a series of full books from Ulysses to great expectations and come out on top - despite my belief that the code does properly handle the E key under the thumb.

ZGCFJ XUMWQ
OSRTD HINLA
;VBK, .YP'/

E _

I plan on using it unless something better can be found. This is the first layout I can say is finished and ready for use. I've yet to try foot pedals with it.

I'll tell you that the only downside to a different layout, is that when trying to use qwerty, I absolutely suck.

I'm very interested in the Maltron layout (I switched to Colemak years ago) and maybe even use your modified layout, and particularly when used on Kinesis Advantage.

One of my personal concerns is having the E on the thumb then needing to use a laptop and watch my typing go down the tiolet even more....ha

Quote from: Input Nirvana on Sun, 31 August 2014, 13:51:05

I'll tell you that the only downside to a different layout, is that when trying to use qwerty, I absolutely suck.

Tell me about it - I had a stint on dvorak a few years back, what got me interested in alternative layouts and after about two months my qwerty skills were something like 60wpm vs my old 100 wpm.

Quote from: Input Nirvana on Sun, 31 August 2014, 13:51:05

I'm very interested in the Maltron layout (I switched to Colemak years ago) and maybe even use your modified layout, and particularly when used on Kinesis Advantage.

One of my personal concerns is having the E on the thumb then needing to use a laptop and watch my typing go down the toilet even more....ha

I would recommend my layout (as says the maker). The maltron has L above the right Pinky, which killed it for me. My layout is more kind to the pinkies. It also has a *slightly* better home row. The downside is that maltron has a free training course on their website and my layout has nothing. Its only existed for 24 hours. :-X

As for the E key under the thumb... You can hook up your kinesis to a laptop (captain obvious strikes again). But carrying around a giant wonky keyboard is ridiculous. Take into consideration that my layout was not designed for staggered columns or keyboards that are not adjusted to finger length. It may work terribly on a laptop.

I know there is software out there (of course I forget the name), should you turn the space bar into E, that will check your work against a dictionary and insert the necessary spaces. I believe it's CPU intensive and only suited for long prose sessions as there is lag. But something like that might be a plausible solution.

Quote from: Input Nirvana on Sun, 31 August 2014, 13:51:05

I'll tell you that the only downside to a different layout, is that when trying to use qwerty, I absolutely suck.

I'm very interested in the Maltron layout (I switched to Colemak years ago) and maybe even use your modified layout, and particularly when used on Kinesis Advantage.

One of my personal concerns is having the E on the thumb then needing to use a laptop and watch my typing go down the tiolet even more....ha

I highly recommend only learning a new character layout when also switching to a different physical layout (like ErgoDox, Maltron, Kinesis Advantage, etc) since it allows you to separate the two motor skill sets and they won't impact each other.

I use QWERTY for my daily work, so I needed to retain decent speed on it.

My QWERTY speed has actually increased since starting to learn my new layout.

I'm Kinesis or laptop, nothing else.

May have to consider an erdox so I can have a flat ergo keyboard for laptop usage that I can place over the laptop keyboard (17" Macbook Pro)

Quote from: Input Nirvana on Sun, 31 August 2014, 15:56:58

I'm Kinesis or laptop, nothing else.

May have to consider an erdox so I can have a flat ergo keyboard for laptop usage that I can place over the laptop keyboard (17" Macbook Pro)

You could just try elevating the laptop on some books and putting the kinesis in from of that so it doesn't block the screen.

Anyway. I refined the previous layout a bit more. (aka jut switched K and V to make it a fraction better). I'm also looking into workman philosophy to see if that would improve it.

ZGCFJ XUMWQ
OSRTD HINLA
;KBV, .YP'/

E _

Quote from: Oobly on Sun, 31 August 2014, 15:36:23

Quote from: Input Nirvana on Sun, 31 August 2014, 13:51:05
I'll tell you that the only downside to a different layout, is that when trying to use qwerty, I absolutely suck.

I'm very interested in the Maltron layout (I switched to Colemak years ago) and maybe even use your modified layout, and particularly when used on Kinesis Advantage.

One of my personal concerns is having the E on the thumb then needing to use a laptop and watch my typing go down the tiolet even more....ha

I highly recommend only learning a new character layout when also switching to a different physical layout (like ErgoDox, Maltron, Kinesis Advantage, etc) since it allows you to separate the two motor skill sets and they won't impact each other.

I use QWERTY for my daily work, so I needed to retain decent speed on it.

My QWERTY speed has actually increased since starting to learn my new layout.

I've noticed I broke my pinky key habits, and my pointer finger mistakes are way down on qwerty since trying out Dvorak

I've noticed I broke my pinky key habits, and my pointer finger mistakes are way down on qwerty since trying out Dvorak
[/quote]

What kind of habits?

---------------------------------------------------------

I've looked into workman and I believe that it is right; the home row is not what I believed it to be. This is especially true when on a kinesis qwerty board, hitting G and H is just too difficult.

Also I got a chance to test out my layout. I did not like the feel of it. Despite high scores in analyzers I feel that it is broken - especially with my investigations into workman coming to light.

Back to the drawing board! It might score nice, but it does seem to work for me.

I also got to have a nice long run on maltron layout and am currently on that after a few days of their training course (which is way better than the crap I had in middle school all those years ago - does anyone else remember typing "fj fjf fjf fjj fjf" a million times? :rolleyes:)

For the moment, while I try to create a workman based model, I just hit L with my ringer finger. I might just swap it with Z in the future. I guess it wasn't so bad after all.

Quote from: NAMESPACE on Mon, 01 September 2014, 20:00:07

I've noticed I broke my pinky key habits, and my pointer finger mistakes are way down on qwerty since trying out Dvorak

What kind of habits?

---------------------------------------------------------

I've looked into workman and I believe that it is right; the home row is not what I believed it to be. This is especially true when on a kinesis qwerty board, hitting G and H is just too difficult.

Also I got a chance to test out my layout. I did not like the feel of it. Despite high scores in analyzers I feel that it is broken - especially with my investigations into workman coming to light.

Back to the drawing board! It might score nice, but it does seem to work for me.

I also got to have a nice long run on maltron layout and am currently on that after a few days of their training course (which is way better than the crap I had in middle school all those years ago - does anyone else remember typing "fj fjf fjf fjj fjf" a million times? :rolleyes:)

For the moment, while I try to create a workman based model, I just hit L with my ringer finger. I might just swap it with Z in the future. I guess it wasn't so bad after all.
[/quote]
Stretching the wrong fingers to reach keys was a large one, where I used to use my ring finger, I now use my pinky. Then as I stated my general accuracy has increased. My "deftness with which I type"

Interesting, I've always cheated with my ring fingers due to qwerty. (I'm doing so right now on the maltron layout with L). I'll give it a try, but I feel that it moves the hand more to hit a key with the pinky vs. the ring finger. Maybe it'll be good for me.

I type basically like this:
(http://i.imgur.com/oTgR4Kq.png) (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@@_c=%2345b866%3B&=~%0A%60&=!%0A1&=%2F@%0A2&_c=%23ff7f22%3B&=%23%0A3&=$%0A4&_c=%235dcde3%3B&=%25%0A5&=%5E%0A6&_c=%2379bbec%3B&=%2F&%0A7&_c=%23ff7921%3B&=*%0A8&=(%0A9&_c=%236ca29d%3B&=)%0A0&=%2F_%0A-&=+%0A%2F=&_w:2%3B&=Backspace%3B&@_c=%23bfbad1&w:1.5%3B&=Tab&=Q&_c=%2345b866%3B&=W&_c=%23ff7f22%3B&=E&_c=%235dcde3%3B&=R&=T&_c=%2379bbec%3B&=Y&=U&_c=%23ff7921%3B&=I&_c=%236ca29d%3B&=O&=P&_c=%23ffb2d2%3B&=%7B%0A%5B&=%7D%0A%5D&_w:1.5%3B&=%7C%0A%5C%3B&@_c=%23bfbad1&w:1.75%3B&=Ctrl&=A&_c=%2345b866%3B&=S&_c=%23ff7f22%3B&=D&_c=%235dcde3%3B&=F&=G&_c=%2379bbec%3B&=H&=J&_c=%23ff7921%3B&=K&_c=%236ca29d%3B&=L&_c=%23ffb2d2%3B&=%2F:%0A%2F%3B&=%22%0A'&_w:2.25%3B&=Enter%3B&@_c=%23bfbad1&w:2.25%3B&=Shift&_c=%2345b866%3B&=Z&_c=%23f4791e%3B&=X&_c=%235dcde3%3B&=C&=V&=B&_c=%2379bbec%3B&=N&=M&_c=%23ff7921%3B&=%3C%0A,&_c=%236ca29d%3B&=%3E%0A.&_c=%23ffb2d2%3B&=%3F%0A%2F%2F&_w:2.75%3B&=Shift%3B&@_x:1.25&c=%23ffe08d&w:1.25%3B&=Opt&_w:1.25%3B&=Cmd&_w:6.25%3B&=&_c=%23fad03d&w:1.25%3B&=Cmd&_w:1.25%3B&=Opt)
(where each color represents a different finger)

And I would recommend anyone else stuck with a standard keyboard do something similar. Obviously on a Kinesis Advantage or Maltron, it’s a bit different.

Smart. I know that I always use my ringer finger for backspace on a standard keyboard as well. I guess that every layout has its own tricks that people get by with.

That's an interesting diagram, it looks like an old apple keyboard - before the arrows keys were added and HJKL was still used. Didn't those guys have some decent alps in them?

Quote from: NAMESPACE on Tue, 02 September 2014, 12:26:44

That's an interesting diagram, it looks like an old apple keyboard - before the arrows keys were added and HJKL was still used. Didn't those guys have some decent alps in them?

It’s just a rough approximation of an Apple laptop keyboard with the arrows and bottom left keys removed, because they’re not relevant to the diagram. (Created by deleting a few keys from a standard 60% layout, so it doesn’t quite agree with an Apple laptop.)

To wrap thing up here, as they were getting more than a bit off-topic (no thanks to myself).

After few weeks on it, I cant live without the maltron layout. A modified maltron layout that is; it changes the right top row to VMLUZ from VMUZL.

This tiny change fixes most of my problems and as such I've stopped my hunt for a better layout. The maltron layout is tried and tested, unlike the layouts I designed, which show promise but have not been tested extensively in the real world.

With these changes I'm still able to use most of the maltron training course and switching to the official maltron layout (if my wrists get worse and I get a maltron) will be easy to do.

Thanks for everyone who gave feedback and advice.

This discussions needs to be moved to the ergonomics forum. Just a thought. Don't want it to get lost in the main keyboard forum.

How would I move it to the ergonomics forum to preserve it?

geekhack

geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: NAMESPACE on Fri, 22 August 2014, 20:04:48