Topre Folks, how do you stay in the game?

[gnho]

Hi all-

I started this hobby in the fall last year and probably have spent way too much money, which is quite stupid.
(I think part of it is that in this hobby you often have to buy to try something and I'm a very curious and very obsessive...)

At this point I feel that it's very hard to find something that beats topre boards. My main drivers are FC660C and HHKB Hybrid Type-S. I have heard that Real Force is even better constructed but the fact that the cable is not detachable means it would be hard for me to put it away.

I have tried a variety of boards and MX switches. I have to say nothing really beats Topre for me so far. There are always new GBs but I rarely see anything that is fundamentally exciting. The last GB I joined is Luna by UNGODLY DESIGN. I really like the design but, to be perfectly honest, I pulled the trigger mostly because the vendor is willing to take the risk for this GB and promises that the buyers will receive the boards in 2 months.

To some degree I can say that I indeed found my end games. Should I just move on to other hobbies?

A few directions I am thinking in terms of where to put $$$ and energy:

1. I have never tried any ALPS. Is there any one who likes topre recommending it?

2. Getting into vintage boards collection? On this note, I ordered an F77 from Joe. Depending on how it turns out I may order an F62. If anything, he's doing something I would like to support. I am also thinking about getting a M0110 just because of its historical value.

3. Learn how to do soldering. I know it's probably pretty basic for people in this hobby but as a topre fan I'm not very motivated to buy the equipment.


Any thought would be appreciated!

[HungerMechanic]

Topre is supposed to be an endgame situation. It is frequently seen by its users as the best tactile [or even linear] solution.

If you think that you've achieved the best you can for yourself with Topre, maybe it's time to declare victory and walk away. If you're looking for the best keyboard, this might be it.

If you start to get bored, get in on a GB for aftermarket Topre keycaps like KBDFans produces. Then, you can have 9009 or whatever on your board. Keep things fresh.

But there's really no need to explore MX if you're satisfied for Topre. Unless you do a lot of gaming, or like clickies or something.

ALPS is a different beast. It's a different way of achieving tactility, obviously much more mechanical. I like it, but it's not a necessity if you already have Topre. Plus, there is no new production ALPS SKCM. If you want to try ALPS, maybe wait until manufacturers start sticking ALPS sliders in MX housings.

[Toob910]

When you say you’ve tried “a variety of Mx boards and switches” can you be more specific? I used to think Topre was endgame as well when all I knew were off-the-shelf prebuilt boards with Cherry MX switches (Filcos, Leopold, etc etc). Boring.

I’m guessing since you are considering learning soldering that you haven’t really explored the custom world yet - since most of that world requires soldering, although not all. It’s also worth noting that most Cherry MX switches are crap - I know this is subjective, but the fact is that they aren’t on par with many of the boutique options available.

The custom world is a deep rabbit hole, but I think you’ll find that there are options that ARE really better than Topre, and plenty to keep you engaged in the hobby for a long time to come, hunting for that perfect combination of board construction, switch, switch mods, lube, stabs, stab mods, plate material, the list goes on. If you’ve already explored all that, disregard, you’re just a Topre guy. But I’m curious to know what MX boards and switches you’ve tried!

[gnho]

ALPS is a different beast. It's a different way of achieving tactility, obviously much more mechanical. I like it, but it's not a necessity if you already have Topre. Plus, there is no new production ALPS SKCM. If you want to try ALPS, maybe wait until manufacturers start sticking ALPS sliders in MX housings.

There are some vintage boards with ALPS and I will have my first ALPS experience when I get my M0110.

Sorry I wasn't being specific about my experience.

I got a huge switch tester from Drop a few months ago and it was helpful to learn how different types of switches work. But you know, it's different when you actually type with them. Switches I have used quite extensively are Kalih Box Brown, Zilent V2, Aliaz, Gateron Ink, Outemu Sky. They are all nice, don't get me wrong, but my purple slider silenced FC660C+Heavy-6 is really at another level. Sometimes I think it's a bit crazy that people think Topre is too expensive but are willing to spend almost as much or more to pay for GMK plastics or a shining metal case. I guess it's because I don't have an Instagram account.

There are many hot-swappable PCB and that's pretty much how I get away from soldering. Honestly, I also don't think I find a true love yet and desoldering is another massive task.

Yes, I haven't tried to Alice layout yet, but again. Prime E is a bit too small for me so it may be fun to type on Alice.

[typo]

Try the Drop Halo True Switches. You might be torn. I have not used an HHKB in 2 weeks.

[Toob910]

Yeah, switch testers are meaningless. The switches you have extensive experience with (in what builds?) are pretty zzzzz, IMO, And there’s a lot more to the equation than just the switch anyway - as I said, MANY factors go into the typing experience.

It sounds like you haven’t tried a well built custom - if you are looking to stay engaged in the hobby and discover sound/feel beyond Topre, that’s where you want to go next. While some people do get into it for their Instagram accounts, I can tell by your comment about shiny cases that you’re ignorant to the impact a nice case can have on the typing experience. Or not even necessarily nice - just differently constructed. Your basic tray mount has very different properties from a gasket mount, or a top mount. And plate material has a huge impact on feel as well - and some cases use plates built into the top, which can have its own set of properties and typing feel. There are Keycult boards selling for $2500+, without switches or caps. And they look like plain ass black TKLs. People aren’t paying that kinda money for how a KC looks.

Like I said, it’s a deep rabbit hole, and can get very expensive. But to your original question of “how do you stay in the game” - this is how. If you’ve got an FC660 in a Heavy6 I assume you’re open to spending at least a few hundred bucks on a board, and there’s a lot of fun to be had and super nice customs to play with in that price range, without needing to spend thousands on a KC or a Jane.

Again, you may just be a Topre guy at the end of the day. But if you want to stay with the hobby, you owe it to yourself to learn to solder and start experimenting with various custom builds. Soldering is easy and the equipment is cheap, so that’s no excuse. And anything you buy can be resold on mechmarket in literally minutes, the demand is so high. Hell, searching for the gear on mm to put that perfect build together is part of the fun, IMO. But if you’re just looking for the best typing experience off the shelf, I agree that Topre can’t be beat.

[rxc92]

I've had a similar experience. I don't think any MX switch will beat out Topre; I've had boards with nice modded MX switches, the type that were supposed to be endgame a few years back, and after switching to silenced Topre, I've never found anything I enjoyed more. However, the one thing that Topre lacks, of course, is aesthetics. So the only thing I've bought in the past 4-5 years outside of upgrading to an R2 is a simple metal 60% with pretty keycaps to go with it.

[gnho]

It sounds like you haven’t tried a well built custom - if you are looking to stay engaged in the hobby and discover sound/feel beyond Topre, that’s where you want to go next.

What would you call a well built custom? I think that's what confuses me... do you have a built that you think surpass a topre board? I joined to M65-B and Lunar GBs. Are those cases, with some lubed/filmed switches and modifiers, plus foam, going to provide experiences comparable to Topre? Boards that are more than 1k seem to be about rarity.

[gnho]

Try the Drop Halo True Switches. You might be torn. I have not used an HHKB in 2 weeks.

Noted. Can you explain a bit how they are better? My understanding is that they are heavy tactile. I was wondering how different Halo True are different from Zilent or Holy Panda. What's your build?

Thanks!

[typo]

Toob910, correct. IMO my board I have 5 grand into now is nicer than my HHKB's. Maybe the key feel is not exactly the same but the overall experience, titanium case 13 pounds ETC. I prefer. I posted it in what keyboard are you using now on page 132. Plus, I built it myself. If I could put in capacitive switches I probably might. I am saying, might. I really like these switches.

[absyrd]

I don't "stay in the game". My HHKB has been eg. I like to visit here still to keep up with old friends. However, it is quite hard since most threads are keyset ICs or GBs and that many old-schoolers have moved on.

[walie]

Try the Drop Halo True Switches. You might be torn. I have not used an HHKB in 2 weeks.

Noted. Can you explain a bit how they are better? My understanding is that they are heavy tactile. I was wondering how different Halo True are different from Zilent or Holy Panda. What's your build?

Thanks!

I didn’t find halo trues that good, didn’t really jive with the “heavy weight meant to reduce bottoming out”. The springs in the halos were also VERY PINGY.  I much preferred using the halo stems to make holy pandas.

Toob910, correct. IMO my board I have 5 grand into now is nicer than my HHKB's. Maybe the key feel is not exactly the same but the overall experience, titanium case 13 pounds ETC. I prefer. I posted it in what keyboard are you using now on page 132. Plus, I built it myself. If I could put in capacitive switches I probably might. I am saying, might. I really like these switches.

BOY OH BOY OH BOY

[Toob910]

What would you call a well built custom? I think that's what confuses me... do you have a built that you think surpass a topre board? I joined to M65-B and Lunar GBs. Are those cases, with some lubed/filmed switches and modifiers, plus foam, going to provide experiences comparable to Topre? Boards that are more than 1k seem to be about rarity.

Well it's all very subjective - but as far as staying in the game, exploring the custom world is part of the game beyond Topre. At least, it was for me. I don't think foam is necessary to achieve good sound in most cases, but it works well in lower-end tray mount types.

If you're after tactility + sound, Holy Pandas are excellent - try them built in a board with a flexible plate like aluminum or FR4. Zealio v2s offer stronger tactile feel but lack the nice thocky sound of HPs, IMO. Both of these switches offer a similar tactility to Topre (rounded bump at the top of the stroke), but with a crispier feeling and less of a mushy bottom out. And much better sound. As far as the case - it depends on what layout you're after - there are a TON of good options similar to the FC660C. Space65, Think6.5, Rama M65a/Koyu, Singa v2, Volcano660.

The journey, or the hunt for the perfect feel is all part of the fun. And even if you still find Topre the best, you'll get a lot more mileage out of the hobby - which I think was the original intent of your post. There's also little financial risk - I built a Rama board but found the super thick integrated plate way too stiff, and sold the thing 2 days later for exactly what I paid. Took about 10 minutes after posting to r/mm. Every build I learn a little more about the weird world of keyboards, and a little bit more about my own preferences and my quest for the holy grail. It's truly more about the journey than the destination. I was a tactile guy for a long time, but have suddenly fallen in love with a nice smooth, thocky linear - and have been experimenting with a variety of linear builds and really enjoying it.

Anyway YMMV, good luck!

[gnho]

Toob910, correct. IMO my board I have 5 grand into now is nicer than my HHKB's. Maybe the key feel is not exactly the same but the overall experience, titanium case 13 pounds ETC. I prefer. I posted it in what keyboard are you using now on page 132. Plus, I built it myself. If I could put in capacitive switches I probably might. I am saying, might. I really like these switches.

Alright- Like, I believe that you're having a better experience but can you elaborate a bit why? Thanks!

[gnho]

If you're after tactility + sound, Holy Pandas are excellent - try them built in a board with a flexible plate like aluminum or FR4. Zealio v2s offer stronger tactile feel but lack the nice thocky sound of HPs, IMO. Both of these switches offer a similar tactility to Topre (rounded bump at the top of the stroke), but with a crispier feeling and less of a mushy bottom out. And much better sound. As far as the case - it depends on what layout you're after - there are a TON of good options similar to the FC660C. Space65, Think6.5, Rama M65a/Koyu, Singa v2, Volcano660.

I was a tactile guy for a long time, but have suddenly fallen in love with a nice smooth, thocky linear - and have been experimenting with a variety of linear builds and really enjoying it.

Thanks! This is very helpful. I am going to build Lunar and M65-B with Holy Panda and Gat Ink. Maybe I will indeed feel differently.

I am not sure about the financial risk part. Some boards sell better than others and my observation is that if you want to turn things over quickly, you have to buy things that are in the mainstream.

[the_marsbar]

I suppose it depends on what level your keyboard hobby is, and why you got into it in the first place.

My first "real" keyboard was a HHKB Pro 2 Type-S which I bought in 2016, mainly because of a video interview with George Hotz, in which he had a HHKB Pro 2 on his desk. I use a computer all the time for work, so it made sense to have a nice keyboard. After reading a lot and watching YouTube videos (especially paying attention to the sound), I settled on the silenced HHKB, and I was immediately happy. So much so that I had to get a regular Pro 2 shortly after, and shortly after that started experimenting with silencing options (and later on BKE Redux domes).

My "collection" now consists of five Topre keyboards (in order of purchase): HHKB Pro 2 Type-S, HHKB Pro 2, CoolerMaster Novatouch TKL, Realforce 104 XF01TS (silenced, variable weight), and a HHKB Professional HYBRID Type-S.

I never really felt the need to explore every switch type. At least not that I was/am in a hurry to do so. Furthermore, I have other hobbies that cost money, so the dedication to a hobby has to be scaled according to priorities in my opinion. Saving is also not a bad option, if buying "just because".

[shadowku]

I've stuck with Topre since I got my first HHKB and I've since tried many mods.
I like tactility so I put BKE Light domes in all of my Topre boards (2x HHKB, 1 with purple sliders, and a FC980C).

I've daily'd the HHKB for over 3 years now.
I might give 55g domes on one of them a spin.

I do itch for a custom build which I'm planning on doing at some point. I'm likely to try either linear or Zilents V2. I have a board with Zilents v1 for gaming but it feels pretty underwhelming to me.

[typo]

I posted a pic page 132 in what keyboard are you using now.

Walie, yes we can agree switches are completely subjective!

[typo]

gnho, it is just like a Roils Royce VS. a Toyota. Both are good quality but the former just "feels" nicer to "touch" on.

[gnho]

gnho, it is just like a Roils Royce VS. a Toyota. Both are good quality but the former just "feels" nicer to "touch" on.

Alright. I think the car metaphor is really interesting. I guess I'm more interested in different types of cars than how luxurious a car is.

[walie]

You can also get some aftermarket housings like a case from Norbauer. Guaranteed to be twice as good as typo's case at 1/6 the cost.

[typo]

Who knows walie. You really do not have to spend that much. $250 would get you a pretty good kit if you look around. there are diminishing returns. my board is maybe only 20% nicer than a $250 one. You will not notice the difference between titanium and aluminum. or a regular metal plate instead of stainless steel. I just like to say I have the best and that is exactly why walie hates me. Really though if I had $250 I would get a HHKB. Unless you already have one.

[gnho]

You can also get some aftermarket housings like a case from Norbauer. Guaranteed to be twice as good as typo's case at 1/6 the cost.

I actually know someone like typo irl. That person is in general a bit awkward but still very well intentioned. So, I don't think typo is lying about anything. Just his experience is not something I can really relate to.

[rxc92]

You can also get some aftermarket housings like a case from Norbauer. Guaranteed to be twice as good as typo's case at 1/6 the cost.

I actually know someone like typo irl. That person is in general a bit awkward but still very well intentioned. So, I don't think typo is lying about anything. Just his experience is not something I can really relate to.

 

You should spend more time on the forums before you make assumptions like that. I looked at the picture, it's some $30 ABS keycaps plus a $20 spacebar on your average groupbuy board. Typo is delusional.

[typo]

Yes, others alluded to that as well. They are 1.75mm PBT. Not a group buy. S. Korean auction. A guy helped me. Is it a given that I must be insulted? You are so far off from what that board is.... or envious.
Let's just say it is what you think. Than I am truly ignorant and completely was taken advantage of. Since I have about 5 grand in the item in that picture. Or just rest on the fact that I am delusional.
At the end of the day, I know what I have and you do not. You wish you did. How many Kleenex did you use on that picture?

[gnho]

Yes, others alluded to that as well. They are 1.75mm PBT. Not a group buy. S. Korean auction. A guy helped me. Is it a given that I must be insulted? You are so far off from what that board is.... or envious.
Let's just say it is what you think. Than I am truly ignorant and completely was taken advantage of. Since I have about 5 grand in the item in that picture. Or just rest on the fact that I am delusional.
At the end of the day, I know what I have and you do not. You wish you did. How many Kleenex did you use on that picture?

Hey man, I hope this thread will not turn into something about you. There's no need to do this. Happy clacking!

[typo]

Trust me, I could not agree more.

On topic, I do not think you have to force yourself to. Either be happy and do not test the waters. Or like something better. Or try others and realize you still like Topre best. I personally am not married to Topre. I can use certain MX. I simply will not use a $10 rubber dome. Although the vast majority of people in fact do. We are but a small minority. I always found it odd that what we like so much about Topre is just the cup rubber. They must have a very good patent. Since we do not see this everywhere. It is so simple, yet feels just right. I have been using MX and they give resistance and a bump. Topre is truly linear. The deal breaker for me is you must bottom out. Even though the feel is sublime I am completely against bottoming out. I think if we live long enough we will understand this. I really do not see why they cannot make a MX switch that mimics Topre. Regardless of what you all think of my board I prefer the layout to my Japanese HHKB. That is why I am using it. The only reason. Plus even if we say it is a group buy it is still much better built than an HHKB IMO. Not that there is anything really wrong with the build quality of an HHKB either. We just like niche stuff such as metal cases here. What would be cool is if they offered a very special limited edition HHKB even if it was $1,000 I am positive it would sell out in an hour. That would in fact have me married to it. Bottoming out and all.

[walie]

Not that there is anything really wrong with the build quality of an HHKB either. We just like niche stuff such as metal cases here. What would be cool is if they offered a very special limited edition HHKB even if it was $1,000 I am positive it would sell out in an hour. That would in fact have me married to it. Bottoming out and all.

Interesting you would say that. There is something coming...

[gnho]

Interesting you would say that. There is something coming...

Haha what is the next big thing in Topre?

I'm picking up a Type Heaven before it gets too expensive in the after market.

[magicrobots]

I have two FC660Cs and I'm experimenting with switching the sliders out to MX. I couldn't find any Novatouches to harvest so I'm using some $56 ebay sliders and I have to say I'm impressed with their quality. I've also got a Heavy-6 on the way. And I'm intrigued by the idea of switching out the silencing rings with different thicknesses (Deskeys) or looking at different weighted domes (BKE).

Like others have said it seems like there is still plenty to explore when you've got a Topre. There is no "End-game" - that's the whole point of a hobby right? Try new stuff and as your own tastes / needs evolve keep trying new stuff, and always keep an open mind.

[Findecanor]

I resent the title of this thread. Keyboards are not a game. Keyboards are tools for getting stuff done.

[Riverman]

If they were just a tool, there'd be no point in custom keycaps and cases.  You'd pick your switches, and you'd slap them in a boring black keyboard.  How boring would that be? 

I just received a set of KBDFans's new 2020 Topre keycaps for my Type Heaven, and a red escape key for my Realforce.  There aren't that many options for customizing these things, but it's nice that there's something.  It keeps them a little fresher.

[gnho]

I resent the title of this thread. Keyboards are not a game. Keyboards are tools for getting stuff done.

Sorry the title offended you. I spend a lot of time with computer and having a keyboard I like does make a big difference so I became quite invested in it. By Game, I just meant a hobby.

[typo]

Walie, if it comes from Topre you would know about it too. I think it is pretty doubtful but who knows. I am liking some Korean MX better overall at the moment. No doubt I will go back.

[gnho]

Guys, I received my F77 today and installed the caps from UNICOMP. I have to say I'm falling in love with this board. Highly recommended!

You can get one fairly quickly from the website with no cap or unprinted caps. It's LOUD but it's music in my ear! I have never had a Model F or M before but the legend is real.