geekhack

geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: dante on Sat, 19 July 2014, 08:20:38

Title: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: dante on Sat, 19 July 2014, 08:20:38
I can't believe POM material keycaps haven't caught on.  I've tried all sorts of ABS and PBT and POM feels and sounds absolutely perfect.  There are only a few sources left for this wonderful material and it depresses me that the mechanical keyboard fans of tomorrow may never experience it.

So...

Is there something you're surprised hasn't caught on in the mechanical keyboard world?
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: heedpantsnow on Sat, 19 July 2014, 08:26:45
I can't believe programmable function layers haven't caught on. Like the Tex Yoda.  Seems a lot more folks would get them if they could change the layers. If somebody built a nice GUI that would be all the more accessible for the average joe.

I do have to say that I tried POM keycaps several years ago and just can't stand them. They feel slippery and greasy all the time, and I felt PBT had just as great a typing experience without the downsides. Sorry. :(
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: davkol on Sat, 19 July 2014, 08:32:52
Optimized layouts. It doesn't surprise me though, because we live in a world, where MSIE6 was the most widespread web browser *for years*.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: FrostyToast on Sat, 19 July 2014, 09:02:12
Optimized layouts. It doesn't surprise me though, because we live in a world, where MSIE6 was the most widespread web browser *for years*.

Shh. Watch what you say, MS might be lurking on the forums waiting to pounce
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: Defect on Sat, 19 July 2014, 09:03:50
ALPS
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: davkol on Sat, 19 July 2014, 09:05:25
Optimized layouts. It doesn't surprise me though, because we live in a world, where MSIE6 was the most widespread web browser *for years*.
Shh. Watch what you say, MS might be lurking on the forums waiting to pounce
So what? Their monopoly is almost over (although Apple is yet another abomination) and politicians they've corrupted aren't getting reelected.

It's a matter of principle (path dependency) for the most part though.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: FrostyToast on Sat, 19 July 2014, 09:11:21
Optimized layouts. It doesn't surprise me though, because we live in a world, where MSIE6 was the most widespread web browser *for years*.
Shh. Watch what you say, MS might be lurking on the forums waiting to pounce
So what? Their monopoly is almost over (although Apple is yet another abomination) and politicians they've corrupted aren't getting reelected.

It's a matter of principle (path dependency) for the most part though.

I was referring to MS (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1912) on the forums...
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: davkol on Sat, 19 July 2014, 09:14:17
Ah, the lower case microsoft windows? Isn't he muted these days?
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: FoxWolf1 on Sat, 19 July 2014, 09:50:45
Integrated pointing devices.

Small integrated displays. I think that people have probably dismissed this as yet another "gaming gimmick" rather than really thinking about what kinds of use it could be put to, especially in non-gaming contexts-- which is where the feature was first seen, anyway.

In fact, now that I think about it, I wonder how many keyboard features that are now marketed as things for gaming were originally designed for office use and seen on high-end office keyboards long before there even was such a thing as a "gaming keyboard"...

(http://deskthority.net/w/images/1/19/Focus5001USlayout.jpg)
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: Puddsy on Sat, 19 July 2014, 10:14:21
any standard ALPS layout/stab combo

like **** it's not hard
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: TBone on Sat, 19 July 2014, 10:34:39
Stepped caps locks standard on keyboards. I like them so much more. I wish there were more keyboards that could use them.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: CPTBadAss on Sat, 19 July 2014, 10:44:07
What tactical stache said. And Alps switches in general.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: davkol on Sat, 19 July 2014, 11:13:08
Also, Maltron and alikes. It's been around for 30+ years, but still the same niche. Noone even copies it, except Kinesis. Only the new wave of mostly flat split keyboards started by ErgoDox.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: Lastpilot on Sat, 19 July 2014, 11:15:33
More TKL cases? XD
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 19 July 2014, 11:17:56
I can't believe you guys are still using keyboards that are all one piece.. (http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/hehe-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862507)
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 19 July 2014, 11:53:36
split spacebars.

There's the erase-eaze, and a compaq with it. IBM wheelwriters & displaywriter sorta. After that, it's only japanese keyboards.

I mean, that's some prime real-estate!
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: Puddsy on Sat, 19 July 2014, 13:43:10
oh yeah

and the KUL
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: cribbit on Sat, 19 July 2014, 13:50:52
I can't believe tiny spacebars haven't caught on. Especially for 40% and 60% boards where that can give you 3-4 extra keys. Most people only use one of their thumbs for space. And if you do a layout like http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/2e593596fba6092a28f90dd6b8d9a028 then you can move the spacebar over when you need it in a different spot. 2-wide space with 2 switches under it. Might have to do linears for the space bar area switches though.

Also, case materials besides plastic, aluminum and wood.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: Hazel on Sat, 19 July 2014, 13:55:52
I can't believe replacing capslock with backspace hasn't caught on (outside of Colemak users).  Once you get used to it, there's no going back.  Typing is so fluid when you don't have to shift away from the home-row to fix errors!
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: Zephitos on Sat, 19 July 2014, 15:22:56
I can't believe tiny spacebars haven't caught on. Especially for 40% and 60% boards where that can give you 3-4 extra keys. Most people only use one of their thumbs for space. And if you do a layout like http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/2e593596fba6092a28f90dd6b8d9a028 then you can move the spacebar over when you need it in a different spot. 2-wide space with 2 switches under it. Might have to do linears for the space bar area switches though.

Also, case materials besides plastic, aluminum and wood.


 :thumb:

it isn't my preference

but amazing idea, very shocking, so minimal awesome key layout
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: nubbinator on Sat, 19 July 2014, 15:40:15
Numpads on the left hand side of the keyboard.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: osi on Sat, 19 July 2014, 15:55:14
Numpads on the left hand side
 of the keyboard.

I've been debating doing this. In fact I'll try it out next week!
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: Lain1911 on Sat, 19 July 2014, 16:03:55
Voice recognition :p
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: cheesedgrate on Sat, 19 July 2014, 18:42:14
Mechanical keyboards at my workplace. I was prepared that my HHKB would bring on a tidal wave of clicking and clacking. The actual results: A coworker who was already into mechs bought a FC660C. I guess you could call that a small victory.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: FrostyToast on Sat, 19 July 2014, 18:52:07
split spacebars.

There's the erase-eaze, and a compaq with it. IBM wheelwriters & displaywriter sorta. After that, it's only japanese keyboards.

I mean, that's some prime real-estate!

I totally agree on this one! The space bar just takes up too much space, and no one uses both thumbs to press down the spacebar!
We need to build a new PCB that supports this and make a GB with included spacebar caps and stabs.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: limitz on Sat, 19 July 2014, 18:52:20
Backlit PBT keycaps.

Only Deck has them and they're in the godawful Renaissance Fair font.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: hwood34 on Sat, 19 July 2014, 18:53:13
Backlit PBT keycaps.

Only Deck has them and they're in the godawful Renaissance Fair font.
+1
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: Kraksx on Sat, 19 July 2014, 19:09:19
Mechanical keyboards at my workplace. I was prepared that my HHKB would bring on a tidal wave of clicking and clacking. The actual results: A coworker who was already into mechs bought a FC660C. I guess you could call that a small victory.

Baby steps haha
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: cribbit on Sat, 19 July 2014, 21:57:49
TKL + keypad rather than fullsize. If you're using your keypad, don't you want to be able to put it wherever?
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: rowdy on Sat, 19 July 2014, 22:13:58
TKL + keypad rather than fullsize. If you're using your keypad, don't you want to be able to put it wherever?

There are a few keyboards that have a numpad that can be removed, and some even allow it to be placed on either side of the keyboard.

But I don't think I've seen a package consisting of a TKL keyboard plus a separate matching numpad.  That would be cool!
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: davkol on Sun, 20 July 2014, 03:12:53
Like Logitech diNovo?
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 20 July 2014, 03:20:16
Like Logitech diNovo?

Or Microsoft Sidewinder X6 - THE best TKL or Full keyboard, if you want it to be  :thumb: .
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: davkol on Sun, 20 July 2014, 03:22:51
X6 had only detachable numpad, not entirely separate. Azio Levetron or that Mad Catz monstrosity would coult as well, otherwise. It's EOL too, and I found the key profile/spacing somehow hurt my fingers. OTOH Logitech PerfectStroke scissor switches are pretty good.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: Melvang on Sun, 20 July 2014, 03:34:16
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: FourOhFour on Sun, 20 July 2014, 09:05:55
But I don't think I've seen a package consisting of a TKL keyboard plus a separate matching numpad.  That would be cool!

The old Apple Adjustable Keyboard. Ok, it isn't TKL, but close enough... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Apple_Adjustable_Keyboard_M1242_different_views.jpeg
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 20 July 2014, 23:22:50
  • Engineers that actually fix, work on, and/or replace what they design.
They exist. For example, Dad was just in China up to his arms in prototypes that he and the people that work for him designed. He is more of a "hands-on" guy who is happy to take apart the stuff he designs, figure out what's wrong and get it fixed for the next prototype. I imagine there's more.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: cribbit on Sun, 20 July 2014, 23:37:31
  • Engineers that actually fix, work on, and/or replace what they design.

You don't know any? I would absolutely love to not be on-call. To just make and push code, and not have to get up at 3am just because some idiot tripped over a power cord somewhere.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 21 July 2014, 01:58:42
I can't believe programmable function layers haven't caught on.
Optimized layouts.
ALPS
Integrated pointing devices.
Also, Maltron and alikes.
I can't believe you guys are still using keyboards that are all one piece..
I can't believe tiny spacebars haven't caught on.
split spacebars. [...] I mean, that's some prime real-estate!
Keyboards that dare to be different.
[An] analogue joystick like the ones in a console controller instead of the hat switch.

I agree with all of these. Which is why I plan to try to include them all when making a keyboard for myself. :)

Also, 3-dimensional trackballs! Abolishing the number / function rows! Moving backspace and enter and right-hand shift to non-braindead positions! Getting rid of caps lock! Lots more thumb keys! Solenoids for extra audio/tactile feedback!
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 21 July 2014, 08:07:56
[whoops, double post]
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: Melvang on Mon, 21 July 2014, 08:12:10
  • Engineers that actually fix, work on, and/or replace what they design.
They exist. For example, Dad was just in China up to his arms in prototypes that he and the people that work for him designed. He is more of a "hands-on" guy who is happy to take apart the stuff he designs, figure out what's wrong and get it fixed for the next prototype. I imagine there's more.

I have only met three in real life.  One was on a job at a power house and he wasn't the engineer that designed the equipment, just a company rep.  One is on the job that I work at now, same deal as the first.  And the third is CPTBadAss.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: JPG on Mon, 21 July 2014, 08:25:58
I just can't believe they stopped making the model F. I mean, I understand the fact that later keyboard we more cost effective to make, but I am sure that if they invested more time and money in making the model F easier to produce they could be made for super cheap. And there's so many people using a keyboard all day long, I just can't believe that they all suffer a damn cheap rubber dome all their life!
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: osi on Mon, 21 July 2014, 16:21:45
Numpads on the left hand side
 of the keyboard.

I've been debating doing this. In fact I'll try it out next week!

1st day in. Harder to get used to than I thought. I've actually caught myself moving my right hand over to the left side to the 10key--dumbass hehe. I suck at being lefty. Trying for week maybe month.

Reminds me of a time, as a young lad, I thought it would be a good idea to swap my left and right hands while riding a dirt bike... I only tried that one time :D

Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: cribbit on Mon, 21 July 2014, 16:25:49
Mandatory computer science education, like we do with reading and writing and math. Especially with the increasing lack of developers, especially talented developers, we should be doing everything we can to increase the labor pool.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 21 July 2014, 16:36:50
Numpads on the left hand side of the keyboard.
1st day in. Harder to get used to than I thought. I've actually caught myself moving my right hand over to the left side to the 10key--dumbass hehe. I suck at being lefty. Trying for week maybe month.

Reminds me of a time, as a young lad, I thought it would be a good idea to swap my left and right hands while riding a dirt bike... I only tried that one time :D
Just moving the numpad and switching hands is really hard, because if your “muscle memory” is based on using your right hand, then you’ll expect to use your index finger for 1, 4, 7, your ring finger for 3, 6, 9, maybe your thumb for 0, your pinky for plus and enter, and so on. But now on your left hand, you suddenly need to use your ring finger for the leftmost column and your index finger for the two columns on the right, and pressing 0 is a big pain. (Question for folks who use a numpad with the left hand: how do you press 0?)

If you mirrored the numpad layout right-to-left in addition to moving it over, then I bet you’d be able to learn to type on it with your left hand relatively easily. That is:
(http://i.imgur.com/fy5aRao.png)

* * *

In general, the standard numpad and phone keypad layouts are really great for typing numbers by pecking with one finger – that’s basically what they were designed for – because they are relatively compact so your one finger doesn’t have to move all that much to reach all the numbers. However, for touch typing, they pretty much suck (in a similar way to the standard Sholes/QWERTY layout for a full keyboard, which was also basically designed for hunt-and-peck usage).
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: GSimon on Mon, 21 July 2014, 20:08:56
Mass produced paracord cables for USB/HDMI etc.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: osi on Tue, 22 July 2014, 22:52:52
Numpads on the left hand side of the keyboard.
1st day in. Harder to get used to than I thought. I've actually caught myself moving my right hand over to the left side to the 10key--dumbass hehe. I suck at being lefty. Trying for week maybe month.

Reminds me of a time, as a young lad, I thought it would be a good idea to swap my left and right hands while riding a dirt bike... I only tried that one time :D
Just moving the numpad and switching hands is really hard, because if your “muscle memory” is based on using your right hand, then you’ll expect to use your index finger for 1, 4, 7, your ring finger for 3, 6, 9, maybe your thumb for 0, your pinky for plus and enter, and so on. But now on your left hand, you suddenly need to use your ring finger for the leftmost column and your index finger for the two columns on the right, and pressing 0 is a big pain. (Question for folks who use a numpad with the left hand: how do you press 0?)

If you mirrored the numpad layout right-to-left in addition to moving it over, then I bet you’d be able to learn to type on it with your left hand relatively easily. That is:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/fy5aRao.png)


* * *

In general, the standard numpad and phone keypad layouts are really great for typing numbers by pecking with one finger – that’s basically what they were designed for – because they are relatively compact so your one finger doesn’t have to move all that much to reach all the numbers. However, for touch typing, they pretty much suck (in a similar way to the standard Sholes/QWERTY layout for a full keyboard, which was also basically designed for hunt-and-peck usage).

The mirror keypad may confuse me more. Slowly but surely, I'm gaining traction with the pad on the left. My num row on the keyboard has become much more familiar than previously this year since getting the hhkb--so I'm not heavily dependent on the pad.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: blackbox on Wed, 23 July 2014, 00:08:15
Mandatory computer science education, like we do with reading and writing and math. Especially with the increasing lack of developers, especially talented developers, we should be doing everything we can to increase the labor pool.

Agreed, Everyone must use a computer sometime in the world we live in.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: Melvang on Wed, 23 July 2014, 00:11:51
Mandatory computer science education, like we do with reading and writing and math. Especially with the increasing lack of developers, especially talented developers, we should be doing everything we can to increase the labor pool.

Agreed, Everyone must use a computer sometime in the world we live in.

Not if you live completely off the grid.  There still is a surprising amount of people that live this way even in the US.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: blackbox on Wed, 23 July 2014, 00:59:45
Mandatory computer science education, like we do with reading and writing and math. Especially with the increasing lack of developers, especially talented developers, we should be doing everything we can to increase the labor pool.

Agreed, Everyone must use a computer sometime in the world we live in.

Not if you live completely off the grid.  There still is a surprising amount of people that live this way even in the US.

True enough, But i still feel there is a need for it.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: 8bitderp on Wed, 23 July 2014, 05:55:30
I can't believe POM material keycaps haven't caught on.  I've tried all sorts of ABS and PBT and POM feels and sounds absolutely perfect.  There are only a few sources left for this wonderful material and it depresses me that the mechanical keyboard fans of tomorrow may never experience it.

So...

Is there something you're surprised hasn't caught on in the mechanical keyboard world?

Where do you get POM, i have yet to try PBT myself. I do know that ABS feels very light and grainy to me.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: davkol on Wed, 23 July 2014, 08:57:45
POM keycaps are present on certain Noppoo/PLUM keyboards (e.g., black non-backlit Choc Mini) and black Cherry G80/G81 keyboards with "L" keycaps (i.e. not ABS doubleshots). Some rainbow-colored POM sets are available from China (I think qtan carries at least one).
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: Quardah on Wed, 23 July 2014, 09:04:51
WOW THIS THREAD IS FKIN GOLD

I mean being serious, this thread really points out a LOT of stuff that i believe should be considered "optimisation standards"

But of course everything starts with appreciation.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: weenis on Sun, 31 August 2014, 11:38:54
I'm also one who can't believe POMs haven't caught on more.

I use POM's at home on my primary computer, and a TKL IBM M on my secondary. I use PBTs and ABS at work. I'm a computer engineer, and play a little bit of SC2... needless to say I use my keyboards. My POM keys are hands down the best sounding and best feeling of all of my keysets.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: xybre on Sun, 31 August 2014, 23:28:40
Numpads on the left hand side of the keyboard.

I happened across this just now :D

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTAwMFgxMDAw/z/RXkAAOSwh6xTrexJ/$_57.JPG)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DSI-Left-Handed-USB-Keyboard-with-Cherry-Mechanical-RED-Key-Switches-New-/400733654502?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item5d4d964de6
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: rowdy on Mon, 01 September 2014, 01:04:46
Numpads on the left hand side of the keyboard.

I happened across this just now :D

Show Image
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTAwMFgxMDAw/z/RXkAAOSwh6xTrexJ/$_57.JPG)


http://www.ebay.com/itm/DSI-Left-Handed-USB-Keyboard-with-Cherry-Mechanical-RED-Key-Switches-New-/400733654502?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item5d4d964de6

I've seen those before - they just look weird to me, like a mirror image but the legends are the wrong way around.  It kinda messes with my brain ... :p
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: Oobly on Mon, 01 September 2014, 01:12:00
Like Logitech diNovo?

Or Microsoft Sidewinder X6 - THE best TKL or Full keyboard, if you want it to be  :thumb: .

X6 had only detachable numpad, not entirely separate. Azio Levetron or that Mad Catz monstrosity would coult as well, otherwise. It's EOL too, and I found the key profile/spacing somehow hurt my fingers. OTOH Logitech PerfectStroke scissor switches are pretty good.

Firstly the X6 is only 2KRO which is ridiculous for a keyboard marketed for gaming. Secondly, it has HORRIBLE feeling rubber domes. Thirdly, the numpad can be placed on either side of the board, so it's not just detachable. Where else would you put a separate numpad?

I'm not really sure why I still have mine.. Possibly for the horrible fascination, a bit like not being able to drive pass the scene of an accident.

Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: Oobly on Mon, 01 September 2014, 01:15:30
Backlit PBT keycaps.

Only Deck has them and they're in the godawful Renaissance Fair font.

Vortex has started making some. They use POM for the semi-opaque material that lets the light through. Font even looks decent.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: Oobly on Mon, 01 September 2014, 01:20:34
Integrated pointing devices.

Small integrated displays. I think that people have probably dismissed this as yet another "gaming gimmick" rather than really thinking about what kinds of use it could be put to, especially in non-gaming contexts-- which is where the feature was first seen, anyway.

In fact, now that I think about it, I wonder how many keyboard features that are now marketed as things for gaming were originally designed for office use and seen on high-end office keyboards long before there even was such a thing as a "gaming keyboard"...

Show Image
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/1/19/Focus5001USlayout.jpg)


So.... what kind of uses could a small display be put to? I can't think of a use case that would improve my user experience. I look up to the screen if I want to see notifications, etc, and leave my hands on the board (a lot lower) for good ergonomics. Why would I want to look down at my keyboard's display for anything?

I agree about integrated pointing devices. My personal favourite is the Trackpoint. Takes up minimal space in the layout and works well enough for basic tasks. For when you need precision you can move your hand over to the mouse, but it allows you to do 80% of your mouse movement without moving your hands from the board.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Mon, 01 September 2014, 01:48:35

  • Engineers that actually fix, work on, and/or replace what they design.
They exist. For example, Dad was just in China up to his arms in prototypes that he and the people that work for him designed. He is more of a "hands-on" guy who is happy to take apart the stuff he designs, figure out what's wrong and get it fixed for the next prototype. I imagine there's more.

I have only met three in real life.  One was on a job at a power house and he wasn't the engineer that designed the equipment, just a company rep.  One is on the job that I work at now, same deal as the first.  And the third is CPTBadAss.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, this is basically my job. But I don't design the stuff. I just fix it.  :))
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: Oobly on Mon, 01 September 2014, 02:06:33
Now, back on topic:

I agree with most of these, specifically:

1. POM keycaps.
2. Split keyboards.
3. Small spacebars, split spacebars, many keys for thumbs.
4. Ergonomic layouts.
5. Programmable Fn layers AND default layers.
5. Alps clicky switches.

Like jacobolus, I am doing something about it with the next version of my board design (split, ergonomic, angled thumb clusters, Matias switches option, POM keycaps option, programmable layouts with a GUI editor). I'm also experimenting with curved finger areas, capacitive switch ideas and buckling springs, but those may have to wait for prototype number 3.

IMHO, better to have both standard layout boards and genuinely ergonomic boards than to modify standard layout boards piecemeal (by splitting spacebars, or changing only character layout, or splitting anormal layout board into two pieces, etc). Means you can still type on a normal board when needed, but you get all the benefits of a properly designed board on your own PC. No mixing up of motor skills / memory, no need to "unlearn" anything.

IMHO it needs to be a "clean break", something so different that you don't use the same muscle memory for typing on the two. Of course, getting widespread adoption will be the biggest problem, no matter how much better a design is than standard. Look at Maltron. Lillian Malt even wrote scientific papers on the design proving its superiority and it still was only used by a small minority of people. I do think the design could be improved somewhat, such as being split and more compact / portable, more optimal use of the thumb clusters in terms of allowing combinations more easily, using Fn layers, using modern analysis on character layouts (not possible in her day, but fairly easy now), etc.

I believe both will need to coexist. Normal board designs will not go away just because something better is out there. People stick to the familiar, but sometimes will also try something novel. If people are assured that trying the novel idea won't affect their skills on a normal board they will be much more likely to try it. If it doesn't work for them, they've lost nothing. If it does they have gained. If the gain is enough, they will promote the concept to others. Eventually it may replace the normal design, but I don't see it happening by increments. "Normal" keyboard designs are too entrenched. Even a small change can be catastrophic to typing fluency and it's an irritation to adjust to. If you have to do this many times to get to a truly good design, many people will not make the effort, IMHO.

In many industries change happens by evolution, small changes that people can get used to as they're introduced one by one. I don't think this is the way to go with keyboard design, though. It needs to be a "revolution", not an "evolution".
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: davkol on Mon, 01 September 2014, 02:32:03
Lillian Malt even wrote scientific papers on the design proving its superiority and it still was only used by a small minority of people.
links plz
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: Oobly on Mon, 01 September 2014, 03:25:58
Lillian Malt even wrote scientific papers on the design proving its superiority and it still was only used by a small minority of people.
links plz

http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/academic-papers/236-lillian-malt-papers
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: davkol on Mon, 01 September 2014, 04:14:05
Lillian Malt even wrote scientific papers on the design proving its superiority and it still was only used by a small minority of people.
links plz

http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/academic-papers/236-lillian-malt-papers
That's one paper and not a very scientific one. I was wondering if you knew about anything else.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: Oobly on Mon, 01 September 2014, 05:33:24
Lillian Malt even wrote scientific papers on the design proving its superiority and it still was only used by a small minority of people.
links plz

http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/academic-papers/236-lillian-malt-papers
That's one paper and not a very scientific one. I was wondering if you knew about anything else.

There are a few more written by Stephen Hobday about the Maltron design there, too:

http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/academic-papers

My point was simply that the design was well planned and executed and could be shown to be a vast improvement over existing designs, but still they didn't become the de facto standard keyboard design despite this, or even particularly popular except in small health-related markets.

Anyway, enough of a derailment I think...

Back on topic: Model F keyboards! Markedly better than the Model M to type on and better overall design, but many people still seem to think the Model M is the pinnacle of keyboard design (and that's even true for many "enlightened" mech keyboard users).
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: squizzler on Tue, 21 April 2020, 04:21:10
I agree, I tried Malt then moved onto the RSTHD (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=82161) layout, which is Malt optimised in the light of modern developments.

Regarding the hardware, I think it's time we dropped MX mount in favour of hollow "light pipe" switches and keycap mounts, such as Kailh KO (https://deskthority.net/wiki/Kailh_PG1593_series) and Omron B3K (https://telcontar.net/KBK/Omron/B3K) whose more spacious design might also provide room for complex mechanisms such as buckling spring or beam spring.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: Zustiur on Wed, 22 April 2020, 18:10:16
Colvrak sets. The World needs more Colemak and Dvorak sets.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: gorauskas on Wed, 22 April 2020, 19:03:11
Completely silent stabilizers!?!
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 23 April 2020, 04:08:48
I can't believe programmable function layers haven't caught on.
People can't even learn shortcuts, heck, many can't even find the keys that are right in front of them.
How do you expect them to learn layers?

Integrated pointing devices.
We tried this, it failed, they lack precision.

Stepped caps locks standard on keyboards. I like them so much more. I wish there were more keyboards that could use them.
Why do we even have Caps Lock. Not sure what to do with it, but it could easily be moved if not killed entirely.

Numpads on the left hand side of the keyboard.
It was on the right side because most people are right handed and most people are HORRIBLE at doing anything like that with anything but their dominant hand.

Voice recognition :p
It has, in phones. Not on desktop because just like the Minority Report screens (which people also wanted badly) they are utter garbage in an office environment.

Engineers that actually fix, work on, and/or replace what they design.
In smaller companies they do, in larger companies they do not.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 23 April 2020, 04:33:33
Mandatory computer science education, like we do with reading and writing and math. Especially with the increasing lack of developers, especially talented developers, we should be doing everything we can to increase the labor pool.
While it sounds good, I've really never seen one that wasn't tailored to a specific program that was worth a darn.
I see the results of those classes regularly, they're all but useless.

The problem is it takes a while for it to standardize, get into books and have tests developed, the technology changes too fast. Don't forget you have to deal with the computers many poorer schools have (whatever they can get) and the "computers" many wealthier schools have (Ipads and Chromebooks). And where do you start? How do you keep the kids interested? Generally you end up with a bunch who have no idea and learn little and a few who already know the lessons and end up hacking the system(s).
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: squizzler on Fri, 24 April 2020, 13:27:26
Why has a 'proper' unicode output not caught on: I don't mean like how QMK's unicode options send a series of keystrokes used to manually enter a unicode character as a one-off, I mean every character comes out in 'pure' unicode.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: hpetrovski on Sun, 26 April 2020, 06:04:05
With the smoothness craze, I'm surprised there aren't many contactless switches being developed by major switch companies honestly.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: FoxWolf1 on Sun, 26 April 2020, 09:34:38
Quote
Integrated pointing devices.
We tried this, it failed, they lack precision.

I don't agree with this. We still find integrated pointing devices in laptops, with modern resolutions, and Lenovo still has TrackPoint keyboards for sale. It's definitely still a live category of device.

The TrackPoint might not replace your mouse for gaming, but it doesn't have to. It's not competing with your mouse for desk space, or even for a port to plug it into. You could use a TrackPoint for tasks that involve a lot of switching between typing and pointer use, or for when you feel like having your hand in a more central position (regardless of the width of your keyboard!), and still use a mouse or trackball at other times. Even just having a second type of pointing device around will already be beneficial because switching between the two will alleviate some of the repetitiveness of your motion.

Ideally there'd be at least two pointing nubs built into the keyboard (maybe more for extra-large keyboards that have many extra regions of keys). One should be in the usual central position amidst the G, H, and B keys, where it is immediately available from the home row, which would be used in typing-intensive tasks. Another would be located above and to the right of the up arrow, below PgDn; this would be used for tasks that call for intensive numerical input, and would likely handle a lot of general use thanks to its proximity both to the arrow keys and the navigation cluster and its position relative to the user's shoulder. Between these two pointing nubs and a mouse or trackball to the right of the keyboard, a large range of seating positions and user body postures can be supported.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: mode on Sun, 26 April 2020, 13:09:04
Mandatory computer science education, like we do with reading and writing and math. Especially with the increasing lack of developers, especially talented developers, we should be doing everything we can to increase the labor pool.
While it sounds good, I've really never seen one that wasn't tailored to a specific program that was worth a darn.
I see the results of those classes regularly, they're all but useless.

The problem is it takes a while for it to standardize, get into books and have tests developed, the technology changes too fast. Don't forget you have to deal with the computers many poorer schools have (whatever they can get) and the "computers" many wealthier schools have (Ipads and Chromebooks). And where do you start? How do you keep the kids interested? Generally you end up with a bunch who have no idea and learn little and a few who already know the lessons and end up hacking the system(s).

I disagree on technology changing too fast, the fundamentals of programming do not. We're still using OO languages not significantly different from smalltalk and that was developed in the 70s. Some CS courses fall out of date as they focus too much on trends and frameworks, my undergrad degree has barely changed in 20 years, and rightly so, It taught me to be capable of picking up any language as I go.

I'm honestly not too bothered about teaching everyone CS though, I hate the idea of the market being flooded with bad developers, who arn't truly passionate about it. We should definitely improve CS education so everyone is exposed to it and everyone with an interest can pursue it, but we're all not going to take to it.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: rxc92 on Sun, 26 April 2020, 20:01:22
Colvrak sets. The World needs more Colemak and Dvorak sets.
.
Tbh most Dvorak/Colemak users probably know how to touch type, considering almost nobody learns them as first layout. I’ve been using Dvorak for years; having a specifically printed set would just make it harder when I have to use QWERTY.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: Leslieann on Sun, 26 April 2020, 20:34:12
Quote
Integrated pointing devices.
We tried this, it failed, they lack precision.

I don't agree with this. We still find integrated pointing devices in laptops, with modern resolutions, and Lenovo still has TrackPoint keyboards for sale. It's definitely still a live category of device.
If you look at those laptops that include a trackpoint almost all of them are corporate grade laptops (or downgraded corporate laptops), there's lots of reasons corporate laptops are designed how they are but it rarely ever comes down to what the workers want. Yes, there are people who refuse to buy a laptop that doesn't have one but those people are few and far between and pretty much every one of them has worked in I.T.


I disagree on technology changing too fast, the fundamentals of programming do not. We're still using OO languages not significantly different from smalltalk and that was developed in the 70s. Some CS courses fall out of date as they focus too much on trends and frameworks, my undergrad degree has barely changed in 20 years, and rightly so, It taught me to be capable of picking up any language as I go.
Comp/Sci is much more than programming, I was referring to fundamentals and basic computer literacy.
People greatly over estimate the average persons basic computer literacy.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: Lastpilot on Fri, 29 May 2020, 18:17:15
Honestly, I am surprised that having a positive tilt on keyboards is still mainstream.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: rxc92 on Sat, 30 May 2020, 01:18:56
I agree, same with people using wrist rests. It's too bad no enthusiast keyboards that I know of do negative tilt. The only one that I've had with it was an old K70.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: mode on Sat, 30 May 2020, 01:57:12
I agree, same with people using wrist rests.

Tall keycaps though. I can't be using SA without a wrist-rest, it's a mitigation against the ergonomic cost of those aesthetics.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: jamster on Sat, 30 May 2020, 04:38:41
Cosmetic LEDs, which add add an extra hundred or so solder points and parts, and contribute absolutely nothing to the function of the keyboard.




(Yeah, I wish).
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: rxc92 on Sat, 30 May 2020, 04:58:59
Cosmetic LEDs, which add add an extra hundred or so solder points and parts, and contribute absolutely nothing to the function of the keyboard.
 
 
They certainly do make the keyboard visible in a dark room, and to touch typists or non-QWERTY users they contribute about as much as printing on keycaps. 
It's very weird that you have some sense of elitism for lacking a feature. It's not enough to say that you dislike backlighting, you also have to perform mental gymnastics and state why you think it's a bad thing also. Hilarious, really.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: jamster on Sat, 30 May 2020, 05:30:05
I readily admit to being old fashioned. If pretty LEDs helped make mech boards popular (which they obviously have with the whole gamer aesthetic) then that's a good thing.

I've been confused about the whole 'helps you see in a dark room' reason, 'cause the keyboard is usually positioned really close to a massive light source (a monitor). That's always struck me as a bit of mental gymnastics to justify an aesthetic preference.

I also admit that the old style ThinkPads with the downlight were pretty useful in the dark, because the laptop keyboards were black and impossible to change, so therefore unavoidably hard to see in the dark. 
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: mokeyjoe on Sat, 30 May 2020, 12:13:01
I readily admit to being old fashioned. If pretty LEDs helped make mech boards popular (which they obviously have with the whole gamer aesthetic) then that's a good thing.

I've been confused about the whole 'helps you see in a dark room' reason, 'cause the keyboard is usually positioned really close to a massive light source (a monitor). That's always struck me as a bit of mental gymnastics to justify an aesthetic preference.

I also admit that the old style ThinkPads with the downlight were pretty useful in the dark, because the laptop keyboards were black and impossible to change, so therefore unavoidably hard to see in the dark.

I have my monitor on an arm so it's fairly high, so while I can kind of see the legends in a darkish room if I peer at them, I have to wait for my eyes to adjust from the brightness of the monitor to see them properly. I find a backlight really useful when working at night, although I only generally need it to find some of the symbols, when I'm touch typing it doesn't really matter. I also prefer white to RGB, as I don't think RGB is particularly functional. Actually I have less of a problem with my laptop, as the screen is close to the keys. Although if I'm looking at dark pages then it doesn't light up the keyboard particularly well.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: lorphex on Mon, 08 June 2020, 19:12:34
Optical switches.
I don't know if people think they're flawed or what. But I bought a GK61 and gutted the parts and modified them to fit in a Lustro case and I use it daily for my gaming keyboard. It's not great for typing, but they're so light and accurate, I love this thing.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: squizzler on Thu, 11 June 2020, 08:36:33
Whilst I am an Ergo user, I am surprised that over in staggered row world, ISO hasn't universally displaced ANSI format.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: rxc92 on Thu, 11 June 2020, 09:48:31
Whilst I am an Ergo user, I am surprised that over in staggered row world, ISO hasn't universally displaced ANSI format.
 
 
That's ironic considering ISO is utter **** for ergonomics compared to ANSI and doesn't even have a single standard layout.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: DALExSNAIL on Thu, 11 June 2020, 11:02:49
Whilst I am an Ergo user, I am surprised that over in staggered row world, ISO hasn't universally displaced ANSI format.

Curious about the resoning here? This really doesn't make sense imo.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: funkmon on Thu, 11 June 2020, 20:59:29
I readily admit to being old fashioned. If pretty LEDs helped make mech boards popular (which they obviously have with the whole gamer aesthetic) then that's a good thing.

I've been confused about the whole 'helps you see in a dark room' reason, 'cause the keyboard is usually positioned really close to a massive light source (a monitor). That's always struck me as a bit of mental gymnastics to justify an aesthetic preference.

I also admit that the old style ThinkPads with the downlight were pretty useful in the dark, because the laptop keyboards were black and impossible to change, so therefore unavoidably hard to see in the dark.

I've absolutely been in a position where I didn't have enough light to really see what I was typing if I lost something back in the bad old days. I think I used to use a black Dell Quietkey when that was going on. I couldn't use the good loud keyboards because my parents were sleeping.
Title: Re: KTOD - "I can't believe ________ hasn't caught on"
Post by: jamster on Sat, 13 June 2020, 22:05:27
I readily admit to being old fashioned. If pretty LEDs helped make mech boards popular (which they obviously have with the whole gamer aesthetic) then that's a good thing.

I've been confused about the whole 'helps you see in a dark room' reason, 'cause the keyboard is usually positioned really close to a massive light source (a monitor). That's always struck me as a bit of mental gymnastics to justify an aesthetic preference.

I also admit that the old style ThinkPads with the downlight were pretty useful in the dark, because the laptop keyboards were black and impossible to change, so therefore unavoidably hard to see in the dark.

I've absolutely been in a position where I didn't have enough light to really see what I was typing if I lost something back in the bad old days. I think I used to use a black Dell Quietkey when that was going on. I couldn't use the good loud keyboards because my parents were sleeping.

I guess I could have been more explicit with the "see in the dark" reason- going on the comments and group buys a lot of people here probably use aftermarket key cap sets. I find it's very easy with a black on white set. I've got GMK Carbon and the stock beige Realforce caps, and they're very easy to see in the dark.

If someone is running a stock 'gaming' board with the usual black ABS keys, sure, backlighting would be pretty useful.