Author Topic: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard. (Read 1243866 times)

Swede · « **Reply #450 on:** Mon, 12 March 2012, 01:59:00 »

I would recommend to stay with aluminum. Price/kg is about $5 and then ofc comes cutting and machining.
I might be able to help with machining for free in return of one of these. But giving no guarantees.

dorkvader · « **Reply #451 on:** Tue, 13 March 2012, 00:02:40 »

I'm pretty sure the PMMA litster-style case would be about the same cost. Making these are pretty time/labour intensive, and that's what we're really paying for, here.

ped · « **Reply #452 on:** Tue, 13 March 2012, 06:54:24 »

Quote from: Swede;543067

I would recommend to stay with aluminum. Price/kg is about $5 and then ofc comes cutting and machining.
I might be able to help with machining for free in return of one of these. But giving no guarantees.

Yes please!

I was hoping you'd see this project and take interest in it.

Swede · « **Reply #453 on:** Tue, 13 March 2012, 08:42:19 »

Quote from: ped;544371

Yes please!
I was hoping you'd see this project and take interest in it.

I would be happy to provide any help with this. But again I will not guarantee anything.
This all weighs on me having time to do the programming and getting approval from my school. And both are far from certain.

Also shipping from Sweden is expensive as hell.

Dox · « **Reply #454 on:** Tue, 13 March 2012, 11:23:01 »

Those who think 280$ is too much for a plastic case from shapeways.....

I got a quote from http://www.firstcut.com/
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 43936[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 43937[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 43938[/ATTACH]

Maybe Swede could do better.

Swede · « **Reply #455 on:** Tue, 13 March 2012, 11:33:29 »

Quote from: Dox;544540

Those who think 280$ is too much for a plastic case from shapeways.....

I got a quote from http://www.firstcut.com/
(Attachment Link) 43936[/ATTACH] (Attachment Link) 43937[/ATTACH] (Attachment Link) 43938[/ATTACH]

Maybe Swede could do better.

Hahaha! HOLY ****!

But I'm not that suprised

Biggest cost for me will be the watercutter. If you can give me 2D drawings I can check if I can make these.

Findecanor · « **Reply #456 on:** Tue, 13 March 2012, 11:54:38 »

Bah! Because the keyboard is flat, the case/plate does not need to be fancy. If you use PCB-mounted switches then the case would not have to be more complex than a box, basically. You don't even need stabilizers for the thumb keys -- the Kinesis does not have any and people never complain about that.

You could also design the case so that only the top needs to be a remotely complex shape. Integrate the plate (if you really think that it is necessary) into that and bolt the PCB to it. Then the bottom could be a simple flat piece of sheet metal or plastic which you bolt on with the help of nylon spacers.

ped · « **Reply #457 on:** Tue, 13 March 2012, 13:03:34 »

Quote from: Swede;544411

I would be happy to provide any help with this. But again I will not guarantee anything.
This all weighs on me having time to do the programming and getting approval from my school. And both are far from certain.

Also shipping from Sweden is expensive as hell.

I live in Europe, shipping shouldn't be incredibly expensive to me.

And if you can make it cheaper than Dox can please (with cherry on top) get permission from your school!

I'll see if I can figure out a way to make time slow down so you have time to do the programming

boli · « **Reply #458 on:** Tue, 13 March 2012, 13:09:39 »

The case material doesn't matter much to me. Both my first and second favorite keyboards (Kinesis Advantage and TrulyErgonomic respectively) have plastic cases, and they work well.

Of course an aluminum keyboard such as the Apple is sleek and good-looking, but function is more important IMO. As long as it's well made it's all good.

sordna · « **Reply #459 on:** Tue, 13 March 2012, 14:48:06 »

I don't care about the case either. In fact I'll be happy getting this without a case if it will save me $200. I can always build a case with cardboard or InstaMorph.

jwaz · « **Reply #460 on:** Tue, 13 March 2012, 18:02:59 »

Don't know how I missed this thread so long but... DOX these are awesoem! Count me intereseted... especially if under 200

Tafryn · « **Reply #461 on:** Tue, 13 March 2012, 18:41:30 »

I have no preference for either a metal or a plastic case, but I think there should only be one case option to cut down on costs. If the chosen material doesn't meet everyone's needs, there's always the option of just grabbing the PCB and making a custom case out of stone, wood, sheep, or whatever material suits your fancy.

Icarium · « **Reply #462 on:** Wed, 14 March 2012, 03:14:39 »

Maybe I'm alone in this but from a scientific point of view a PCB mounted prototype without any case sounds entirely reasonable. Dox, would you mind sharing the layout? Maybe I can make a prototype at work. Don't worry I would still buy one.

seferphier · « **Reply #463 on:** Wed, 14 March 2012, 04:28:03 »

i think it might be cheaper just to buy a 3D printer and printing the cases in plastic.

ironman31 · « **Reply #464 on:** Wed, 14 March 2012, 06:48:14 »

Switches would be harder to get if they were pcb mounted

bpiphany · « **Reply #465 on:** Wed, 14 March 2012, 16:40:13 »

Quote from: ironman31;545598

Switches would be harder to get if they were pcb mounted

It's perfectly good to use plate mount switches, especially for a prototype.

ironman31 · « **Reply #466 on:** Wed, 14 March 2012, 17:08:59 »

Quote from: PrinsValium;546062

It's perfectly good to use plate mount switches, especially for a prototype.

? I'm saying I am against pcb mounted switches.

Parak · « **Reply #467 on:** Wed, 14 March 2012, 18:46:08 »

That is a bit of a YMMV. For example, all of my switch donor boards are PCB mounted POS boards, so it's far easier and cheaper for me to come up with PCB mount switches than plate mount. Note that both can be plate mounted, it'd just be up to the PCB board designer if they can account for the extra holes. Of course, the extra legs on PCB mount switches can be cut off, but that's not really an option for me as I need them to be reusable for my own projects

ironman31 · « **Reply #468 on:** Wed, 14 March 2012, 20:08:03 »

Quote from: Parak;546195

That is a bit of a YMMV. For example, all of my switch donor boards are PCB mounted POS boards, so it's far easier and cheaper for me to come up with PCB mount switches than plate mount. Note that both can be plate mounted, it'd just be up to the PCB board designer if they can account for the extra holes. Of course, the extra legs on PCB mount switches can be cut off, but that's not really an option for me as I need them to be reusable for my own projects

It's a little harder to find brand new pcb mx blues from donor boards, and a little less hard for browns. Not to mention, I'm not even sure they have pcb reds.

sordna · « **Reply #469 on:** Wed, 14 March 2012, 20:20:57 »

Quote from: ironman31;546263

It's a little harder to find brand new pcb mx blues from donor boards, and a little less hard for browns. Not to mention, I'm not even sure they have pcb reds.

Kinesis uses PCB reds with pins AND diodes (MX1A-L1DW) in their LF model. They sell a pack of 15 for $15.

ironman31 · « **Reply #470 on:** Wed, 14 March 2012, 20:50:18 »

Quote from: sordna;546270

Kinesis uses PCB reds with pins AND diodes (MX1A-L1DW) in their LF model. They sell a pack of 15 for $15.

That's not too bad.

sordna · « **Reply #471 on:** Wed, 14 March 2012, 20:56:20 »

Maybe it's a good idea that the PCB (whether we go with a plate or not) has the holes to acommodate pins and diodes, even if PCB/dioded switches are not necessarily used.

inaneframe · « **Reply #472 on:** Wed, 14 March 2012, 23:56:16 »

Just to re-iterate, I'm still down for 3, possibly more.

Dox, you're beautiful.

bpiphany · « **Reply #473 on:** Thu, 15 March 2012, 00:44:59 »

Quote from: ironman31;546096

? I'm saying I am against pcb mounted switches.

Ok, I should have expressed that more precisely.

It's perfectly fine to use plate mount switches where there is supposed to be PCB mounted ones, especially for a prototype.

Icarium · « **Reply #474 on:** Thu, 15 March 2012, 04:25:21 »

Quote from: PrinsValium;546465

Ok, I should have expressed that more precisely.

It's perfectly fine to use plate mount switches where there is supposed to be PCB mounted ones, especially for a prototype.

I was just suggesting PCB mount because that seems easier to accomplish quickly.

bpiphany · « **Reply #475 on:** Thu, 15 March 2012, 04:43:46 »

There is no big difference between PCB and plate mounted switches. The only thig is that there are two extra plastic pins to orient the PCB mounted switches better. This means that it is completely possible to use plate mounted switches instead where there is supposed to be PCB mounted ones. It only takes some more care to make sure the switches are soldered in straight.

To use PCB mount switches on a PCB that is not designed with the two extra alignment holes the extra plastic pins needs to be cut off. If there is room on the PCB it can be a good idea to include the extra alignment holes even if the PCB is intended to be used for plate mounting, since this makes it possible to use either plate or PCB mounted switches.

geekabit · « **Reply #476 on:** Thu, 15 March 2012, 08:42:48 »

I'm interested, if under 200 EUR/USD/GBP

geekabit · « **Reply #477 on:** Thu, 15 March 2012, 08:49:47 »

I was wondering, why connect both halves together and only one hand to USB. Wouldn't it be more flexible to give both halves their own processor and USB cable? That way you could even decide to use only one half for single-handed typing. You could even incorporate a USB hub in the back, so you can daisy-chain the keyboard and plug in your mouse as well.

sordna · « **Reply #478 on:** Thu, 15 March 2012, 09:59:41 »

Quote from: PrinsValium;546572

There is no big difference between PCB and plate mounted switches. The only thig is that there are two extra plastic pins to orient the PCB mounted switches better. This means that it is completely possible to use plate mounted switches instead where there is supposed to be PCB mounted ones. It only takes some more care to make sure the switches are soldered in straight.

The plastic pins are not intended to help installation/soldering, their main benefit is stability/sturdiness. A regular MX switch with only 2 thin terminals to hold it, especially considering they are offset to one side of the switch, cannot withstand pulling keycaps. I've tried both types of switches in my kinesis mod and I know. A plate-mounted switch with diodes, has a better chance of surviving without pins, but a normal switch won't hold over time unless you never pull your keycaps.

bpiphany · « **Reply #479 on:** Thu, 15 March 2012, 10:30:12 »

I don't really think the switch modules were designed with keycap pulling in mind.. The pegs (I guess this is a less confusing word than pin in this case) could possibly contribute to mechanical stability under normal usage as well though. But I still think the main design goal is to make sure the switches are mounted straight. Using the specified diameter for the lead holes, there is quite enough rotational play to allow for messed up functionality.

Parak · « **Reply #480 on:** Thu, 15 March 2012, 10:49:23 »

Quote from: geekabit;546635

I was wondering, why connect both halves together and only one hand to USB. Wouldn't it be more flexible to give both halves their own processor and USB cable? That way you could even decide to use only one half for single-handed typing.

This was discussed earlier in the thread, and is rather complicated to implement. For one, the two halves still need to connect to each other in some way because certain key functionality doesn't pass from one usb keyboard to another. In addition, there needs to be specific firmware logic that is then able to treat the two separate controllers and matrices as one in some way, considering the key map assignments in dual and standalone modes and such.

Quote from: geekabit;546635

You could even incorporate a USB hub in the back, so you can daisy-chain the keyboard and plug in your mouse as well.

Most likely there's no room for one, and if anything I'd think that it'd be a diy thing for individual people if they want to do that sort of thing. Maybe someday we'll have a free and open source controller/firmware implementation with all these things built in, but one can only dream [of enough free time to focus on something like that].

sordna · « **Reply #481 on:** Thu, 15 March 2012, 13:00:33 »

Quote from: PrinsValium;546688

I don't really think the switch modules were designed with keycap pulling in mind.. The pegs (I guess this is a less confusing word than pin in this case) could possibly contribute to mechanical stability under normal usage as well though. But I still think the main design goal is to make sure the switches are mounted straight. Using the specified diameter for the lead holes, there is quite enough rotational play to allow for messed up functionality.

Anyway, the pcb should have the holes, and folks are free to use whatever switches they like. For plate mounted switches without a plate, I would recommend hotgluing them on the PCB before soldering. Personally I love switches with pegs AND diodes, they are solid strong!

Necroleachate · « **Reply #482 on:** Wed, 21 March 2012, 12:00:25 »

I dream about a keyboard like this.
Only con is price.
If it gets below $ 200 I would consider buying it.

jblack801 · « **Reply #483 on:** Wed, 21 March 2012, 13:25:55 »

Quote from: Necroleachate;552569

I dream about a keyboard like this.
Only con is price.
If it gets below $ 200 I would consider buying it.

I'm right there with you...

Considering if price reaches sub $200 range.

Findecanor · « **Reply #484 on:** Wed, 21 March 2012, 13:54:16 »

Quote from: Parak;546704

This was discussed earlier in the thread, and is rather complicated to implement. For one, the two halves still need to connect to each other in some way because certain key functionality doesn't pass from one usb keyboard to another. In addition, there needs to be specific firmware logic that is then able to treat the two separate controllers and matrices as one in some way, considering the key map assignments in dual and standalone modes and such.

That depends on how the user wants to configure his keyboard. Not everyone needs a hardware layer.

I think that the firmware should be one firmware downloaded individually to each keyboard via USB. On boot, each keyboard should auto-detect whether it is left or right (by a pin on the PCB), where it get its power from USB (Master or Stand-alone) or link-cable (Slave) and act accordingly. Each keyboard should store its own keymap. A special key combo to enter a Remap (like Kinesis Remap key) could be executed on either keyboard. When in Slave mode, the keyboard should handle keymap remapping commands from the Master through the link cable.
That would mean that if you want to remap the keyboards or use a hardware layer, then you need the link cable. If you remap the keyboards and then reconnect both through USB then they should remember the keymaps.

ic07 · « **Reply #485 on:** Wed, 21 March 2012, 15:06:34 »

If you're willing to consider them truly separate keyboards when connecting them separately, it might be practical. But DOX specifically said he'd use at most 1 Teensy and 1 I/O expander.

On the plus side, if DOX changes his mind, treating the 2nd Teensy as an I/O expander until proper dual Teensy firmware could be written should be fairly trivial. Or if he doesn't, I suppose one could always buy another Teensy, put it inside an Altoids can with a few connectors (which I think looks really cool, lol), and use that as the right hand side to save desk space when they only want to use the left.

Dox · « **Reply #486 on:** Wed, 21 March 2012, 17:46:34 »

Quote from: ic07;552763

If you're willing to consider them truly separate keyboards when connecting them separately, it might be practical. But DOX specifically said he'd use at most 1 Teensy and 1 I/O expander.

This.

I got some HDMI connectors today to do some prototyping. Those pins tiny! 0.5mm pitch. Anyone know the best way to solder those with a standard soldering iron?
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 45211[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 45212[/ATTACH]

OPTiK · « **Reply #487 on:** Wed, 21 March 2012, 20:15:37 »

Quote from: Dox;552911

This.

I got some HDMI connectors today to do some prototyping. Those pins tiny! 0.5mm pitch. Anyone know the best way to solder those with a standard soldering iron?
(Attachment Link) 45211[/ATTACH] (Attachment Link) 45212[/ATTACH]

A really fine tip with fine guage wire lol. I could do that with my 12 watt soldering iron, doubt you can do it with a radio shack iron.

Dox · « **Reply #488 on:** Wed, 21 March 2012, 20:34:35 »

I have done the right hand PCB layout. I'll add the option for PCB mounted switch as well as diodes inside the switch.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 45248[/ATTACH]

dorkvader · « **Reply #489 on:** Wed, 21 March 2012, 20:49:19 »

Quote from: OPTiK;553025

A really fine tip with fine guage wire lol. I could do that with my 12 watt soldering iron, doubt you can do it with a radio shack iron.

Alternatively, you can just flood over all the pins with a bunch of solder bridges, then suck off the excess with (normally) some copper braid.

Those are surface mount, right? Will there be PCB support for if I want to -say- get some through-hole ones?

ironman31 · « **Reply #490 on:** Wed, 21 March 2012, 20:58:03 »

I'm getting excited

Dox · « **Reply #491 on:** Wed, 21 March 2012, 21:10:47 »

Quote from: dorkvader;553054

Alternatively, you can just flood over all the pins with a bunch of solder bridges, then suck off the excess with (normally) some copper braid.

Those are surface mount, right? Will there be PCB support for if I want to -say- get some through-hole ones?

Yes those are surface mount. I would need the datasheet of the connector to check if the holes would interfere.

sordna · « **Reply #492 on:** Wed, 21 March 2012, 21:50:28 »

Quote from: Dox;553042

I have done the right hand PCB layout. I'll add the option for PCB mounted switch as well as diodes inside the switch.
(Attachment Link) 45248[/ATTACH]

How about you make the PCB accommodate cherry switches that include the diodes? (and for folks not using switches with diodes, they can still surface-solder diodes at the same soldering points. Shouldn't be hard to make the PCB take DW switches (with pins, with diodes).

Dox · « **Reply #493 on:** Wed, 21 March 2012, 21:56:47 »

Quote from: sordna;553089

Quote from: Dox;553042
I have done the right hand PCB layout. I'll add the option for PCB mounted switch as well as diodes inside the switch.
(Attachment Link) 45248[/ATTACH]
How about you make the PCB accommodate cherry switches that include the diodes? (and for folks not using switches with diodes, they can still surface-solder diodes at the same soldering points. Shouldn't be hard to make the PCB take DW switches (with pins, with diodes).

....

ic07 · « **Reply #494 on:** Thu, 22 March 2012, 01:26:16 »

Quote from: Dox;552911

I got some HDMI connectors today to do some prototyping. [...]

This doesn't mean I'm too late with the i²C firmware, does it? Couldn't say I'm close yet, but I'm making progress...

sordna · « **Reply #495 on:** Thu, 22 March 2012, 01:28:17 »

I plan to get red switches from Kinesis btw, they only sell pcb-mounted switches with pins and diodes, here's a couple I got a while back (photo is from my wiki.

REVENGE · « **Reply #496 on:** Thu, 22 March 2012, 02:41:50 »

Dead set on using an HDMI connector? That's way beyond my soldering skill level! D:

Dox · « **Reply #497 on:** Thu, 22 March 2012, 09:11:13 »

ic07, you're not too late, I'm using HDMI until you get something working, but I want this to progress.

sordna, switches with pins and diodes will be supported.

bpiphany · « **Reply #498 on:** Thu, 22 March 2012, 19:05:03 »

Quote from: dorkvader;553054

Alternatively, you can just flood over all the pins with a bunch of solder bridges, then suck off the excess with (normally) some copper braid.

Those are surface mount, right? Will there be PCB support for if I want to -say- get some through-hole ones?

After a few tries you get the amount of solder correct. After that it is a smooth experience =)

dorkvader · « **Reply #499 on:** Fri, 23 March 2012, 00:30:51 »

Yeah, but I'm still a little worried about all the relatively fine pitch chips I need to solder for a project I'm getting into.

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Author Topic: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard. (Read 1243866 times)