GMK 'Miami Nights' + CMYKv2 + spacebars: In Limbo/Unfulfillment

[Baddy126]

Not necessarily - Paypal can put his balance into negative and go after him directly through legal means. It is, however, difficult to ascertain if this is the route they would take.

I don't see why PayPal would shift the liability from the group buyers to themselves though

[Michael]

Not necessarily - Paypal can put his balance into negative and go after him directly through legal means. It is, however, difficult to ascertain if this is the route they would take.

I don't see why PayPal would shift the liability from the group buyers to themselves though

Wikipedia lawyering aside, the scale of this fraud is in felonious amounts. If anyone was actually serious, you could file a suit against Ivan (class action? I dunno).
This would directly have to involve PayPal, so if they could get around this issue, and they usually can, all liability would be on Ivan, as PayPal can take money
from the bank connected to his account, and if that isn't possible, they can take steps to recover the money by other means.


If you guys missed it, swimmingbird did in fact call PayPal, and they did advise him to put in a dispute even though its out of the 180 period. So I do believe there
may still be hope.

[Elrick]

If you guys missed it, swimmingbird did in fact call PayPal, and they did advise him to put in a dispute even though its out of the 180 period. So I do believe there
may still be hope.

Okay we'll all see if paypal will step up but according to all their rules and regulations the after 180 day period applies for all purchases hence launching any private calss action inside the United States would be ludicrous beyond belief.

Mostly because as foreigners we don't get any legal recognition within your country were this fraud was perpetrated, so us lot lose big time yet again before anything could appear in any court for recovery of money lost.  I knew buying into Group Buys was risky in the past but to have it done to you in 2015/2016, by a long time member is truly EVIL beyond belief.  Maybe seeing all that money switched his pilfering gene on (yes there are born thieves amongst us) and he succumbed without delay.

Just to let everyone here know the exact amount I lost in this deal, it was a tidy $437.84USD.  Maybe I got what I deserved for supporting this horrid Felcher but I suppose you live and learn, being here on GH Central.

Another note for everyone residing here on GH, Ivanivanovich can easily start another identity and do this all over again under an assumed name, hence be aware of any new identities trying to launch new Group Buys because you never know if it's him doing it all over again to gain everyone's trust.  He's a slimy operator like all Dirty Dealers and he has time on his side to build up your confidence in him.

[Glenmael]

I took over someone else's buy, any hope for me?

Cheers

[unipsykal]

I took over someone else's buy, any hope for me?

Cheers

Was Ivan involved in and notified of the transfer?

[whmeltonjr]

I took over someone else's buy, any hope for me?

Cheers

You would have to have the person who's order you took over do a claim on your behalf.

[swimmingbird]

I took over someone else's buy, any hope for me?

Cheers

You would have to have the person who's order you took over do a claim on your behalf.

Unfortunately this is correct

[Elrick]

Just to show everyone here on Geekhack what happens when you lodge a so-called complaint past the 180 day time  limit here;

Quoted from their email sent to me this morning;

Thank you for contacting PayPal.
I have opened a claim for you, however it will close right away because it is beyond our 180 days we have to file a claim.
I am sorry for any inconvenience. It is my pleasure to assist you. Thank you for choosing PayPal.Sincerely,
 Deborah
 Protection Services Department
 PayPal
 
 Copyright © 1999-2016 PayPal. All rights reserved.


Welcome folks to the REAL WORLD. 

Fantasies of ever getting your money back via Paypal, is never going to happen so get use to being lighter in your pocket for trusting this particular Scumbag Merchant, who got away with your money and probably laughing off his face for doing it.
Trust me he'll be back under an assumed name to do it again, simply because he got away with it the first time and shall get away with it the second, third and fourth time here on Geekhack Central.

This place is an official haven for thieving SH1THOLES such as this, so beware of whom you're giving your money too.

[Glenmael]

I took over someone else's buy, any hope for me?

Cheers

You would have to have the person who's order you took over do a claim on your behalf.

Unfortunately this is correct

Thank you sirs!

[korrelate]

we probably aren't going to get our money back but that doesn't mean we have to make it easy for him.


Never  mind.. what I had proposed was a pretty harsh option and after reflection I don't think it's necessary (because his own conscience will punish him enough) or even warranted.


Cheers,

K

[korrelate]

one more thing: let's try to focus on what can be done to avoid these in the future.

Just telling people to "be careful who you give your money to" doesn't help. i got stung by druger and by Ivan and in both cases these guys had pretty good reputations right before they turned to the dark side. Not just good reputations... good service... i had successfully bought from both of them before they turned.

seriously.. ivan basically modeled his move on what druger had done. I am seriously beginning to wonder if druger and Ivan aren't the same person.


anyway... why don't we have some kind of identity authentication done before people can run group buys? or is there some kind of online service that already does this?

you know... they don't have to authenticate with the mods... we don't even have to make it mandatory that people get authenticated by mods... and we certainly don't want to hold the mods responsible for anything but i think that people would be much less a inclined to try to/actually rip us off if their identity was known to the somebody (some or all of the participants) and i further believe that everyone would rather buy from someone whose identity is authenticated.

[Michael]

one more thing: let's try to focus on what can be done to avoid these in the future.

Working on it. Feel free to contribute


https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=80764.0

[Elrick]

anyway... why don't we have some kind of identity authentication done before people can run group buys? or is there some kind of online service that already does this?

you know... they don't have to authenticate with the mods... we don't even have to make it mandatory that people get authenticated by mods... and we certainly don't want to ho,d the mods responsible for anything but i think that people would be much less a nclined to rip us off if their identity was known to the mods and i further believe that everyone qould rather buy from someone whose identity is authenticated.

Word to the WISE here, the MODS don't know sh1t what's happening other than hearing about what has happened from us the "ripped off", which is usually way to late.

Maybe we shouldn't hand over money to anyone other than PMK, CTRL/ALT and MassDrop meaning these are the ONLY places where you'll get your money back no question and at any time.

Any other person here on this site won't be that so forgiving, about handing back your money so forget about Druger and Ivan because anyone that has money in their hands can do this, run to the hills and never to be heard of again.  We essentially gave them the money and freedom to this in the first place whilst other organizations have to abide by Paypal rules and regulations, the private scumbags don't have to.

All anyone can do now is recommend extreme caution when handing over money irrespective of what the Mods agree on anything.  Besides, the Mods don't agree on anyone handing over money to strangers simply because they can't guarantee or can never do so, that you will get what you paid for in the first place.

In fact the Mods can't do anything so I was wondering why do they allow this activity on this website in the first place?  It won't be long before some US citizen decides to take Geekhack to court and charge them for allowing this activity here and not doing anything to stop it.  THEY Geekhack, have to stop Group Buy activities and anything to do with money laundering through fake Group Buys, otherwise it will harm them in any future court proceedings.  One thing you could count on in the United States, the complete freedom to pursue anyone within their legal system, if they have been ripped off.

Time to decide, get rid of Group Buys here on this site or face legal proceedings for allowing it to continue and helping the scumbags to get away with this.  Your choice........

[korrelate]

Good points Elrick. That's an angle that I hadn't considered: but I believe that you're right...

Probably the only way to go about this properly is to bubble the request up those members with storefronts or MD and the like.
For my part, I'm totally done with GBs. The risk to reward ratio is just too high and the temptation for the organizer is just too great.

If someone has a storefront then they have some skin in the game. Any old GHer, though... to organize that and then sit around with thousands and thousands... that's a temptation that I think people need to have put into context. I mean honestly, I feel kind of bad for the organizers in that regard... they are putting themselves in a position where their morality is going to be tested like it never has before.

I mean think about it... an organizer starts a GB just because they wanted an XoX color scheme and then all of a sudden they're sitting on an account with tens of thousands of dollars in it.

So what do they do? That's not just a good down payment on car... that's a cash payment for a car or a down payment on a freaking house. Those XoX keycaps can't compare.


So there we go... I think that's the prevention... anyone who gets into a GB is only risking a hundred or two bucks. When that's lost it really is a shame for many reasons, but that's hardly the problem. Don't ask yourself if you can afford to lose your cost of the GB... ask yourself if you trust the organizer not skip town with $40,000 (forty THOUSAND) USD. I'm sure some GBs are less and others are more (I bet Druger made off with quite a bit more because there were a lot of orders for Dolch back then) but to me, that's the real issue.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that with some good thinking we could find a way to get these done... escrow accounts or some such thing... something that makes this:
A. Safer for the Participant.
B. Less Tempting for the Organizer (I do think that these things do have the potential to put too much temptation in front of people who may not be equipped to handle this...). I would hate to have something like this on my conscience, seriously, but I view this as one of those "There but for the grace of God go I."

But you know what, you are absolutely right: GHers can't look to the mods for help on this, nor should we want to... seems like a way of just increasing the risk of something that people are only doing for free and anything that increases that risk is just adding the hassle of running something like this.





That reminds me... I can't remember who was running the GB for the blank SP Dolch but they actually went through and refunded everybody... once it was obvious that Druger screwed everybody. Whoever it was that was running that Blank Dolch GB... he was really a stand up dude.

[Elrick]

That reminds me... I can't remember who was running the GB for the blank SP Dolch but they actually went through and refunded everybody... once it was obvious that Druger screwed everybody. Whoever it was that was running that Blank Dolch GB... he was really a stand up dude.

Relying on that special INDIVIDUAL with a conscious and a soul, to not steal the money or let it fly away mysteriously is now quite rare.

This shouldn't be a lotto-like system in which FIRST prize is the complete theft of all your money and all that is left is to constantly b1tch and whine here on Geekhack for ever more.

YES you've got some very stand-up guys but they're mixed up with the low-life, felching, scum-buckets that will disappear with anyone's money without a second thought.  Need to try and weed out those pieces of sh1t before they entrench themselves permanently here on Geekhack, as so-called 'trusted organizers'.

[wodan]

If you choose to bring this to court and sue Ivan for the money, courts/judges don't have the right to refuse the case. This can only happen in criminal cases. In civil law, there is only a voluntary dismissal unless you seriously mess up.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolle_prosequi

And the case remains pretty simple, Ivan has money has doesn't own and you want it back. No one here ever gave Ivan the money to keep - very simple to prove that with the Paypal transaction - yet he kept it. Just because it happened on the internet doesn't make it less criminal. Should he have declares the money as income in his taxes, that would be a jackpot for all of you since that means he admits possessing the money. Maybe you now start to understand why alot of the drug money is not declared income - you admit possession of the funds and this raises questions about the source of the money. His best bet would be claiming having forwarded the funds to the manufacturers as promised until proven wrong or under oath


Oh yeah and as a lesson learned for future GB, I will create a reminder in my calendar a few days before the PayPal dispute window closes and check if my GB appears in the SP production schedule as "scheduled" or is confirmed by the manufacturer in another way. This is the least I can expect from a GB organizer to post proof of payment to the manufacturer within the 180d dispute windows of paypal. SPs new production status page is a very very valuable community service in that aspect!

http://pimpmykeyboard.com/key-status/

Mhm Nantucket Selectric ...

[daviswalkers]

So the whole "wanting revenge" thing is a bad way of looking at it, but anyone saying we shouldn't pursue any legal actions because we wont get our money isn't seeing the big picture... We can all agree that the bigger problems here are that:
1. The GB system is flawed there's no set in stone requirements for the GB host, other than a post count. On top of that they don't have to post any sort of proof at any point, the argument here could easily be that's on the buyer not the forum to decide when they should/should not back out of the GB, but either way it can be seen as a problem.
2. This is the one that I'm trying to get at with my first sentence, as pointed out by many people throughout all of this "nothing will happen" "it's far too easy to do this" "we're not getting our money back" we have a defeatist attitude and if you bring up wanting to make someone's life hard you're seen as an *******... Well I have news for you, Ivan made tons of people of this communities lives hard, I get it, you shouldn't take part in a GB if you're hurting for money (or make any unnecessary purchases for that matter) but regardless of your financial standpoint $100-$500 is nothing to just throw away. So why is it wrong to want to get him in trouble or make life harder for him if he did it to potentially hundreds of members of our community?  Either way let's put that mindset aside and think of the problem with the GB format, you have to trust that you're going to get the product, there's obviously not very much risk on the end of the GB leader, it's all on the buyers (obviously if you're a honest and good GB leader you sometimes take on the risk of prototyping and the work of sorting/shipping/all of that crap that I would never even consider doing personally but I'm talking in general) and right now we have Drugger, Kin25, and Ivan who have defrauded potentially 100's of thousands of dollars from the community with 0 legal backlash, so with that in mind, what's going to stop me from doing the exact same thing next week?  If other community members are shunned/ridiculed for wanting to "get back at me" for stealing their money to the point where I have nothing to fear?

We should instead try to scare people into not doing this sort of thing... Show them that if you decide to take this course of action Geekhack as a community will pursue legal action on you and make your life hell. Not show them that they can get away with it.

Sorry for the rant and run on sentences, I'm more or less rant/venting because the overall mindset of this community on the GB section of GH is extremely toxic towards anyone who raises any concerns towards the GB leader at any point and that needs to change, people shouldn't be trashed because they're concerned their order hasn't had any updates for a month+ because "thats how this leader does thing" or seen as scum for wanting to file a charge back, people should be empowered to force GB leaders to follow guidelines and keep everyone updated and respond to their customers, and if they can't do that, and if this causes less GBs because less people want to take on that risk, well then I guess we'll miss out on another custom keyboard/keyset but at least we wont be missing out on them and missing out on hundreds of dollars.

[flabbergast]

I don't see "a problem with the GB system". There is no "GB system", and certainly GH is not "liable" for anything. This is a forum. What I see is individuals deciding to give money to another individual on a promise of getting something back. It is completely up to the participants to do their homework and decide if they want to give money to that person or not. Whatever "system" there is in place, the only thing it will do is to provide more facts (hopefully) about the GB leader to make this decision a more informed one.

It would be nice if the GB leaders would provide some guarantees (e.g. not charging the whole amount up front, regular updates, etc...) but I do not understand why these should be "requirements". I, as a GB participant, would look at what does the GB leader offer as guarantees, and if they're not enough, I would not participate. This is *my* responsibility, and not a responsibility of anybody else, certainly not GH. "GH endorsing a GB" is in the end nothing else than another bunch of semi-random people saying things will be OK and presenting it as "a fact".

I think of it like giving money to a random person at a bus stop, who I've just had a half-an-hour conversation with, to go and buy me a sandwich. If there is some evidence that he's done this for my friend a week ago already, all the better. The more I know about the person, the better. In the end, it's a risk/value assessment on my side. There is always some risk, even if it wasn't a random person but my best friend since childhood.

Similarly, it is completely up to the individuals to decide whether/when to do a paypal chargeback and/or seek some legal means. Why does it have to be "endorsed" or "not endorsed" by the community? Ah, right, peer pressure.

Certainly there are reasons to try to pursue Ivan legally. But for me "just because I want to make his life hell" is not one of the reasons, and in my opinion it is not a good one. Eye for an eye? Wanting to get my money back - that would be a good reason for me.

We should instead try to scare people into not doing this sort of thing... Show them that if you decide to take this course of action Geekhack as a community will pursue legal action on you and make your life hell. Not show them that they can get away with it.

Yes, because an athmosphere of fear is the best way, and it solves all the problems.

With the posts in this thread, I am actually amazed anyone is willing to run any group buys at all. They can certainly expect random chargebacks (just like it happened to Bro) and various threats.

Finally - certainly it is safer to go with registered companies like MassDrop - but remember that MassDrop can also just declare bankruptcy and then you'll be lucky if you get pennies on a dollar back. That's one of the points of running a company - your personal assets are not liable for any loss that the company incurs. Is this likely to happen? I don't consider it too likely. But it could happen. Just like with Ivan, I didn't consider it too likely that he'd disappear.
Also, just because people have a web "storefront" (e.g. LeandreN, UKKeycaps, ...) this does not mean that they have a registered company, and that the situation is any different from a GB run through GeekHack. You're still giving money to a person on a promise that they deliver something, and have exactly the same official possibilities to get your money back (paypal chargeback, legal action) if something breaks down.

I personally will still participate in group buys if I'll be OK with the risk/value ratio.

[daviswalkers]

We should instead try to scare people into not doing this sort of thing... Show them that if you decide to take this course of action Geekhack as a community will pursue legal action on you and make your life hell. Not show them that they can get away with it.

Yes, because an athmosphere of fear is the best way, and it solves all the problems.

It's how the entire legal system is designed... You commit murder, you're either getting life/death sentence, not because the person wants/needs/is owed revenge, but because it's meant to dissuade other people from committing murder.  Obviously murder still exists but I would be willing to bet that if there was no repercussion for murder it would happen a hell of a lot more. Obviously that's an extreme example but lets look at in a very similar light, if I had no fear of getting in legal trouble for walking into a store and stealing everything I wanted it would be much harder for me to not do it than it currently is, maybe that says a lot about me as a person however I'm not saying I would do it, but that it would be much harder for me not to, and based off of looting every time there's a riot/natural disaster that it tends to be true for others as well.

[Waateva]

I still don't see why the idea of a GeekHack company isn't being pushed for by more people.  When I first came here and later joined and learned about GBs and that they were basically run by entrusting a random person on the internet with thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars on the promise that they will deliver, I was floored.  Now, that hasn't stopped me from buying into a couple after learning a little more about the process, but that doesn't change the issue at hand.

If a company were set up that all GBs ran through, even if that company just received and sent the money, that would eliminate a ton of these concerns.

[riotonthebay]

I still don't see why the idea of a GeekHack company isn't being pushed for by more people.

Because it would be a ton of work, and very few people are in the position to step up to the plate. It's much easier to offer that as a suggestion than it is for anyone to follow through with it.

[redskull]

so no ones gonna go down and find Ivan for some explanation?

[Photekq]

so no ones gonna go down and find Ivan for some explanation?

Nobody here has the balls to confront a skinny hipster. It's a keyboard forum man.

[beehatch]

so no ones gonna go down and find Ivan for some explanation?

Nobody here has the balls to confront a skinny hipster. It's a keyboard forum man.

Funny how people think a bunch of nerds are just going to drive down and confront someone.

[ideus]

so no ones gonna go down and find Ivan for some explanation?

Nobody here has the balls to confront a skinny hipster. It's a keyboard forum man.

Funny how people think a bunch of nerds are just going to drive down and confront someone.

That may be one of the reasons Ivan considered when he decided to take the money and run.

[redskull]

well hoff met him, maybe he can just go down there and have a talk, see whats going on. no need to be nasty or anything. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[whmeltonjr]

well hoff met him, maybe he can just go down there and have a talk, see whats going on. no need to be nasty or anything. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Hoff is like 9 hours away IIRC, and who says Ivan hasn't moved?

[qwack]

That's already been suggested but iirc that's a pretty long drive, and why should Hoff be the one to do it? He's already contacted Ivan and asked about the current state of the GBs, and got no answer. Chances are the guy won't even open the door if anyone shows up.

Collect the relevant info (who's involved in these buys, and for how much), send it to Paypal as suggested just in case they might be able to do something about it, perhaps forward it to whichever authority seems more likely to take the matter into their hands (unless you're okay with letting it slide), that's probably the best course of action. Forget about confronting the man, he won't even answer on the internet, what do you expect him to tell you if you meet him?

[dgneo]

so no ones gonna go down and find Ivan for some explanation?

And what do you propose they do after they get there? Beat him up for the money? Hold a gun to his head until he gives the money back? What if he shuts the door in your face, then calls the cops on you for trespassing? You think you're explanation of 'he took my moneys over the internet' will suffice? What if he says he has no idea who IvanIvanovich is, and he's already wiped his computer clean of all the info? Sure PayPal will have the transactions still, but regardless.

[redskull]

so no ones gonna go down and find Ivan for some explanation?

And what do you propose they do after they get there? Beat him up for the money? Hold a gun to his head until he gives the money back? What if he shuts the door in your face, then calls the cops on you for trespassing? You think you're explanation of 'he took my moneys over the internet' will suffice? What if he says he has no idea who IvanIvanovich is, and he's already wiped his computer clean of all the info? Sure PayPal will have the transactions still, but regardless.

calm down man, luls. whats with all the mob mentality.

im saying, its something that someone can try. what if he is willing to meet up, everyone can sit down nicely and talk things out? from what was posted, Ivan had an accident, maybe it changed him and things went downhill onwards.

[dgneo]

so no ones gonna go down and find Ivan for some explanation?

And what do you propose they do after they get there? Beat him up for the money? Hold a gun to his head until he gives the money back? What if he shuts the door in your face, then calls the cops on you for trespassing? You think you're explanation of 'he took my moneys over the internet' will suffice? What if he says he has no idea who IvanIvanovich is, and he's already wiped his computer clean of all the info? Sure PayPal will have the transactions still, but regardless.

calm down man, luls. whats with all the mob mentality.

im saying, its something that someone can try. what if he is willing to meet up, everyone can sit down nicely and talk things out? from what was posted, Ivan had an accident, maybe it changed him and things went downhill onwards.

Perfectly calm here, man. What makes you think he'd be willing to meet up and discuss things when he stopped responding to Hoff after Hoff pressed him for information about what's going on?

[redskull]

so no ones gonna go down and find Ivan for some explanation?

And what do you propose they do after they get there? Beat him up for the money? Hold a gun to his head until he gives the money back? What if he shuts the door in your face, then calls the cops on you for trespassing? You think you're explanation of 'he took my moneys over the internet' will suffice? What if he says he has no idea who IvanIvanovich is, and he's already wiped his computer clean of all the info? Sure PayPal will have the transactions still, but regardless.

calm down man, luls. whats with all the mob mentality.

im saying, its something that someone can try. what if he is willing to meet up, everyone can sit down nicely and talk things out? from what was posted, Ivan had an accident, maybe it changed him and things went downhill onwards.

Perfectly calm here, man. What makes you think he'd be willing to meet up and discuss things when he stopped responding to Hoff after Hoff pressed him for information about what's going on?

nothing man, just that for me its at least one thing that someone can try out.

i've been in a similar situation before and in the local forum im in something similar happened when a moderator who owns a physical computer shop did a gb for kingston rams, took thousands in cash and suddenly bolted. everyone went berserk but a few cool heads went to track him down, found him and they sat down settled things calmly and clearly. dude paid back most of the cash although i never got hold about the rest.

in any case, more often than not these things happen when the culprit accidentally hit something unplanned. im not discounting Ivan on anything, but it might be worth for someone to try meet him up, talk things nicely and see how it goes. if he keeps avoiding, then at the least it would be clear that he is simply a douchebag and deserves **** for what he'd done.

[beehatch]

so no ones gonna go down and find Ivan for some explanation?

And what do you propose they do after they get there? Beat him up for the money? Hold a gun to his head until he gives the money back? What if he shuts the door in your face, then calls the cops on you for trespassing? You think you're explanation of 'he took my moneys over the internet' will suffice? What if he says he has no idea who IvanIvanovich is, and he's already wiped his computer clean of all the info? Sure PayPal will have the transactions still, but regardless.

calm down man, luls. whats with all the mob mentality.

im saying, its something that someone can try. what if he is willing to meet up, everyone can sit down nicely and talk things out? from what was posted, Ivan had an accident, maybe it changed him and things went downhill onwards.

Perfectly calm here, man. What makes you think he'd be willing to meet up and discuss things when he stopped responding to Hoff after Hoff pressed him for information about what's going on?

nothing man, just that for me its at least one thing that someone can try out.

i've been in a similar situation before and in the local forum im in something similar happened when a moderator who owns a physical computer shop did a gb for kingston rams, took thousands in cash and suddenly bolted. everyone went berserk but a few cool heads went to track him down, found him and they sat down settled things calmly and clearly. dude paid back most of the cash although i never got hold about the rest.

in any case, more often than not these things happen when the culprit accidentally hit something unplanned. im not discounting Ivan on anything, but it might be worth for someone to try meet him up, talk things nicely and see how it goes. if he keeps avoiding, then at the least it would be clear that he is simply a douchebag and deserves **** for what he'd done.

You go drive down and meet him then.

[romevi]

so no ones gonna go down and find Ivan for some explanation?

And what do you propose they do after they get there? Beat him up for the money? Hold a gun to his head until he gives the money back? What if he shuts the door in your face, then calls the cops on you for trespassing? You think you're explanation of 'he took my moneys over the internet' will suffice? What if he says he has no idea who IvanIvanovich is, and he's already wiped his computer clean of all the info? Sure PayPal will have the transactions still, but regardless.

calm down man, luls. whats with all the mob mentality.

im saying, its something that someone can try. what if he is willing to meet up, everyone can sit down nicely and talk things out? from what was posted, Ivan had an accident, maybe it changed him and things went downhill onwards.

Perfectly calm here, man. What makes you think he'd be willing to meet up and discuss things when he stopped responding to Hoff after Hoff pressed him for information about what's going on?

nothing man, just that for me its at least one thing that someone can try out.

i've been in a similar situation before and in the local forum im in something similar happened when a moderator who owns a physical computer shop did a gb for kingston rams, took thousands in cash and suddenly bolted. everyone went berserk but a few cool heads went to track him down, found him and they sat down settled things calmly and clearly. dude paid back most of the cash although i never got hold about the rest.

in any case, more often than not these things happen when the culprit accidentally hit something unplanned. im not discounting Ivan on anything, but it might be worth for someone to try meet him up, talk things nicely and see how it goes. if he keeps avoiding, then at the least it would be clear that he is simply a douchebag and deserves **** for what he'd done.

You go drive down and meet him then.

[redskull]

so no ones gonna go down and find Ivan for some explanation?

And what do you propose they do after they get there? Beat him up for the money? Hold a gun to his head until he gives the money back? What if he shuts the door in your face, then calls the cops on you for trespassing? You think you're explanation of 'he took my moneys over the internet' will suffice? What if he says he has no idea who IvanIvanovich is, and he's already wiped his computer clean of all the info? Sure PayPal will have the transactions still, but regardless.

calm down man, luls. whats with all the mob mentality.

im saying, its something that someone can try. what if he is willing to meet up, everyone can sit down nicely and talk things out? from what was posted, Ivan had an accident, maybe it changed him and things went downhill onwards.

Perfectly calm here, man. What makes you think he'd be willing to meet up and discuss things when he stopped responding to Hoff after Hoff pressed him for information about what's going on?

nothing man, just that for me its at least one thing that someone can try out.

i've been in a similar situation before and in the local forum im in something similar happened when a moderator who owns a physical computer shop did a gb for kingston rams, took thousands in cash and suddenly bolted. everyone went berserk but a few cool heads went to track him down, found him and they sat down settled things calmly and clearly. dude paid back most of the cash although i never got hold about the rest.

in any case, more often than not these things happen when the culprit accidentally hit something unplanned. im not discounting Ivan on anything, but it might be worth for someone to try meet him up, talk things nicely and see how it goes. if he keeps avoiding, then at the least it would be clear that he is simply a douchebag and deserves **** for what he'd done.

You go drive down and meet him then.

i would if i could.

[beehatch]

so no ones gonna go down and find Ivan for some explanation?

And what do you propose they do after they get there? Beat him up for the money? Hold a gun to his head until he gives the money back? What if he shuts the door in your face, then calls the cops on you for trespassing? You think you're explanation of 'he took my moneys over the internet' will suffice? What if he says he has no idea who IvanIvanovich is, and he's already wiped his computer clean of all the info? Sure PayPal will have the transactions still, but regardless.

calm down man, luls. whats with all the mob mentality.

im saying, its something that someone can try. what if he is willing to meet up, everyone can sit down nicely and talk things out? from what was posted, Ivan had an accident, maybe it changed him and things went downhill onwards.

Perfectly calm here, man. What makes you think he'd be willing to meet up and discuss things when he stopped responding to Hoff after Hoff pressed him for information about what's going on?

nothing man, just that for me its at least one thing that someone can try out.

i've been in a similar situation before and in the local forum im in something similar happened when a moderator who owns a physical computer shop did a gb for kingston rams, took thousands in cash and suddenly bolted. everyone went berserk but a few cool heads went to track him down, found him and they sat down settled things calmly and clearly. dude paid back most of the cash although i never got hold about the rest.

in any case, more often than not these things happen when the culprit accidentally hit something unplanned. im not discounting Ivan on anything, but it might be worth for someone to try meet him up, talk things nicely and see how it goes. if he keeps avoiding, then at the least it would be clear that he is simply a douchebag and deserves **** for what he'd done.

You go drive down and meet him then.

i would if i could.

That's my excuse too.

[Waateva]

I still don't see why the idea of a GeekHack company isn't being pushed for by more people.

Because it would be a ton of work, and very few people are in the position to step up to the plate. It's much easier to offer that as a suggestion than it is for anyone to follow through with it.

How so?  You create a C-Corp called, oh how about GeekHack Buys Inc, which GBs can have the option of running through.  Creating a C-Corp is stupidly easy and I could have it setup in under 10 minutes as long as I have the information required such as an address or PO Box and at least one "owner" to put the Corporation under.  This would allow people who want to use the Corporation for facilitating GBs the ability to do so, and also give people who want to get into the GB some reassurance that their money won't be snatched away.  This way also solves personal liability and personal tax issues as C-Corps do not flow to owner's personal tax returns as they instead pay the flat Corporate tax rate on any profit, which should ideally be nothing.

For this option, you pay a very small fee which covers fees related to the C-Corp but also gives you insurance, which could be in name only or could be actual liability insurance through a 3rd party covering GeekHack Buys Inc if people wanted it.  Then the GB organizer simply transfers the money to the Corporation, which then pays whatever vendor they are running through, and that's all the Corporation would theoretically have to be involved.  This also wouldn't have to be a requirement to run a GB on GeekHack as you could definitely run one yourself, but then you the buyer run the risk of what has now happened multiple times of people walking away with thousands and thousands of dollars.

I am just trying to find a solution to this problem and future unseen problems, because eventually someone is gonna get ****ed by the IRS running these and they are gonna get whacked with the tax bill because of it.  If you guys want to keep gambling that great, but having personally dealt with the IRS and people who gamble on almost a daily basis, I can tell you this GB system is going to blow up eventually.

[ideus]

I still don't see why the idea of a GeekHack company isn't being pushed for by more people.

Because it would be a ton of work, and very few people are in the position to step up to the plate. It's much easier to offer that as a suggestion than it is for anyone to follow through with it.

How so?  You create a C-Corp called, oh how about GeekHack Buys Inc, which GBs can have the option of running through.  Creating a C-Corp is stupidly easy and I could have it setup in under 10 minutes as long as I have the information required such as an address or PO Box and at least one "owner" to put the Corporation under.  This would allow people who want to use the Corporation for facilitating GBs the ability to do so, and also give people who want to get into the GB some reassurance that their money won't be snatched away.  This way also solves personal liability and personal tax issues as C-Corps do not flow to owner's personal tax returns as they instead pay the flat Corporate tax rate on any profit, which should ideally be nothing.

For this option, you pay a very small fee which covers fees related to the C-Corp but also gives you insurance, which could be in name only or could be actual liability insurance through a 3rd party covering GeekHack Buys Inc if people wanted it.  Then the GB organizer simply transfers the money to the Corporation, which then pays whatever vendor they are running through, and that's all the Corporation would theoretically have to be involved.  This also wouldn't have to be a requirement to run a GB on GeekHack as you could definitely run one yourself, but then you the buyer run the risk of what has now happened multiple times of people walking away with thousands and thousands of dollars.

I am just trying to find a solution to this problem and future unseen problems, because eventually someone is gonna get ****ed by the IRS running these and they are gonna get whacked with the tax bill because of it.  If you guys want to keep gambling that great, but having personally dealt with the IRS and people who gamble on almost a daily basis, I can tell you this GB system is going to blow up eventually.

That is a very interesting idea, thank you very much for sharing, beyond the buys, it is good to know that alternative exists.

[Baddy126]

I still don't see why the idea of a GeekHack company isn't being pushed for by more people.

Because it would be a ton of work, and very few people are in the position to step up to the plate. It's much easier to offer that as a suggestion than it is for anyone to follow through with it.

For this option, you pay a very small fee which covers fees related to the C-Corp but also gives you insurance, which could be in name only or could be actual liability insurance through a 3rd party covering GeekHack Buys Inc if people wanted it.  Then the GB organizer simply transfers the money to the Corporation, which then pays whatever vendor they are running through, and that's all the Corporation would theoretically have to be involved.  This also wouldn't have to be a requirement to run a GB on GeekHack as you could definitely run one yourself, but then you the buyer run the risk of what has now happened multiple times of people walking away with thousands and thousands of dollars.

You can even further improve the process with better segregation of duties. People in the group buy can send money to the corp with certain titles so they know which group buy it's from to avoid having the GB organizer be in contact with the money at all. Put all the data in the excel document and just match the GH name with the paypal title to see who has paid and who hasn't. Either way you'll still need to elect people trust worthy enough to run Geekhack. There are also fees involved with creating a corporation though it's not much. 

[riotonthebay]

I still don't see why the idea of a GeekHack company isn't being pushed for by more people.

Because it would be a ton of work, and very few people are in the position to step up to the plate. It's much easier to offer that as a suggestion than it is for anyone to follow through with it.

How so?  You create a C-Corp called, oh how about GeekHack Buys Inc, which GBs can have the option of running through.  Creating a C-Corp is stupidly easy and I could have it setup in under 10 minutes as long as I have the information required such as an address or PO Box and at least one "owner" to put the Corporation under.  This would allow people who want to use the Corporation for facilitating GBs the ability to do so, and also give people who want to get into the GB some reassurance that their money won't be snatched away.  This way also solves personal liability and personal tax issues as C-Corps do not flow to owner's personal tax returns as they instead pay the flat Corporate tax rate on any profit, which should ideally be nothing.

For this option, you pay a very small fee which covers fees related to the C-Corp but also gives you insurance, which could be in name only or could be actual liability insurance through a 3rd party covering GeekHack Buys Inc if people wanted it.  Then the GB organizer simply transfers the money to the Corporation, which then pays whatever vendor they are running through, and that's all the Corporation would theoretically have to be involved.  This also wouldn't have to be a requirement to run a GB on GeekHack as you could definitely run one yourself, but then you the buyer run the risk of what has now happened multiple times of people walking away with thousands and thousands of dollars.

I am just trying to find a solution to this problem and future unseen problems, because eventually someone is gonna get ****ed by the IRS running these and they are gonna get whacked with the tax bill because of it.  If you guys want to keep gambling that great, but having personally dealt with the IRS and people who gamble on almost a daily basis, I can tell you this GB system is going to blow up eventually.

Incorporating isn't the issue; Managing and running it is.

The tax liability issues would still be there for the organizer if they're collecting funds to be transferred to the GB corp. Maybe I'm missing something (you're the tax guy), but that seems no different than transferring directly to the manufacturer from a tax perspective. If that's a potential issue, then collecting funds and transferring to GB corp would be as well. And if the goal is avoiding organizer mismanagement, there's still inherent risk in sending them the money in the first place.

Assuming the above is correct, GB corp would need to be involved in collecting payments. This has a ton of hidden costs: coordinating with the group buy organizer on pricing and verification (was the right amount sent?); managing and accounting for payments received from multiple simultaneous group buys; dealing with chargebacks (there will _always_ be chargebacks), which now could potentially affect entirely unrelated buys if an account is frozen. This begins to look more and more like a full-time job and business, as opposed to a simple shell corp.

I don't mean to be a naysayer, but the problems above aren't solved for in a weekend, but rather with serious investment by someone committed to it. That's not to say it couldn't happen, but it's not going to happen overnight, and I personally doubt its worth.

[SpAmRaY]

I still don't see why the idea of a GeekHack company isn't being pushed for by more people.

Because it would be a ton of work, and very few people are in the position to step up to the plate. It's much easier to offer that as a suggestion than it is for anyone to follow through with it.

How so?  You create a C-Corp called, oh how about GeekHack Buys Inc, which GBs can have the option of running through.  Creating a C-Corp is stupidly easy and I could have it setup in under 10 minutes as long as I have the information required such as an address or PO Box and at least one "owner" to put the Corporation under.  This would allow people who want to use the Corporation for facilitating GBs the ability to do so, and also give people who want to get into the GB some reassurance that their money won't be snatched away.  This way also solves personal liability and personal tax issues as C-Corps do not flow to owner's personal tax returns as they instead pay the flat Corporate tax rate on any profit, which should ideally be nothing.

For this option, you pay a very small fee which covers fees related to the C-Corp but also gives you insurance, which could be in name only or could be actual liability insurance through a 3rd party covering GeekHack Buys Inc if people wanted it.  Then the GB organizer simply transfers the money to the Corporation, which then pays whatever vendor they are running through, and that's all the Corporation would theoretically have to be involved.  This also wouldn't have to be a requirement to run a GB on GeekHack as you could definitely run one yourself, but then you the buyer run the risk of what has now happened multiple times of people walking away with thousands and thousands of dollars.

I am just trying to find a solution to this problem and future unseen problems, because eventually someone is gonna get ****ed by the IRS running these and they are gonna get whacked with the tax bill because of it.  If you guys want to keep gambling that great, but having personally dealt with the IRS and people who gamble on almost a daily basis, I can tell you this GB system is going to blow up eventually.

Incorporating isn't the issue; Managing and running it is.

The tax liability issues would still be there for the organizer if they're collecting funds to be transferred to the GB corp. Maybe I'm missing something (you're the tax guy), but that seems no different than transferring directly to the manufacturer from a tax perspective. If that's a potential issue, then collecting funds and transferring to GB corp would be as well. And if the goal is avoiding organizer mismanagement, there's still inherent risk in sending them the money in the first place.

Assuming the above is correct, GB corp would need to be involved in collecting payments. This has a ton of hidden costs: coordinating with the group buy organizer on pricing and verification (was the right amount sent?); managing and accounting for payments received from multiple simultaneous group buys; dealing with chargebacks (there will _always_ be chargebacks), which now could potentially affect entirely unrelated buys if an account is frozen. This begins to look more and more like a full-time job and business, as opposed to a simple shell corp.

I don't mean to be a naysayer, but the problems above aren't solved for in a weekend, but rather with serious investment by someone committed to it. That's not to say it couldn't happen, but it's not going to happen overnight, and I personally doubt its worth.

I think we've discussed most of this in this thread https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79164.0 I was thinking there was another thread but having a quick look I didn't find it.

And reached the same consensus that it just isn't worth it.

[riotonthebay]

This seems to be the more active/rational thread at the moment: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=80764.0

[Waateva]

I still don't see why the idea of a GeekHack company isn't being pushed for by more people.

Because it would be a ton of work, and very few people are in the position to step up to the plate. It's much easier to offer that as a suggestion than it is for anyone to follow through with it.

For this option, you pay a very small fee which covers fees related to the C-Corp but also gives you insurance, which could be in name only or could be actual liability insurance through a 3rd party covering GeekHack Buys Inc if people wanted it.  Then the GB organizer simply transfers the money to the Corporation, which then pays whatever vendor they are running through, and that's all the Corporation would theoretically have to be involved.  This also wouldn't have to be a requirement to run a GB on GeekHack as you could definitely run one yourself, but then you the buyer run the risk of what has now happened multiple times of people walking away with thousands and thousands of dollars.

You can even further improve the process with better segregation of duties. People in the group buy can send money to the corp with certain titles so they know which group buy it's from to avoid having the GB organizer be in contact with the money at all. Put all the data in the excel document and just match the GH name with the paypal title to see who has paid and who hasn't. Either way you'll still need to elect people trust worthy enough to run Geekhack. There are also fees involved with creating a corporation though it's not much.

Obviously that was not everything that would need to be involved as someone would need to reconcile the books as well as file the tax return, but fees involved with creating it would be nothing as I could set it up for free, and the entity could be up and running in less than a day if needed.  I could also file the tax return if needed (but probably on extension, I've got enough **** to do during tax season as it is), but it would be best if the books were done outside of the GH community to prevent accusations of favoritism or any other things like that.

[Waateva]

I still don't see why the idea of a GeekHack company isn't being pushed for by more people.

Because it would be a ton of work, and very few people are in the position to step up to the plate. It's much easier to offer that as a suggestion than it is for anyone to follow through with it.

How so?  You create a C-Corp called, oh how about GeekHack Buys Inc, which GBs can have the option of running through.  Creating a C-Corp is stupidly easy and I could have it setup in under 10 minutes as long as I have the information required such as an address or PO Box and at least one "owner" to put the Corporation under.  This would allow people who want to use the Corporation for facilitating GBs the ability to do so, and also give people who want to get into the GB some reassurance that their money won't be snatched away.  This way also solves personal liability and personal tax issues as C-Corps do not flow to owner's personal tax returns as they instead pay the flat Corporate tax rate on any profit, which should ideally be nothing.

For this option, you pay a very small fee which covers fees related to the C-Corp but also gives you insurance, which could be in name only or could be actual liability insurance through a 3rd party covering GeekHack Buys Inc if people wanted it.  Then the GB organizer simply transfers the money to the Corporation, which then pays whatever vendor they are running through, and that's all the Corporation would theoretically have to be involved.  This also wouldn't have to be a requirement to run a GB on GeekHack as you could definitely run one yourself, but then you the buyer run the risk of what has now happened multiple times of people walking away with thousands and thousands of dollars.

I am just trying to find a solution to this problem and future unseen problems, because eventually someone is gonna get ****ed by the IRS running these and they are gonna get whacked with the tax bill because of it.  If you guys want to keep gambling that great, but having personally dealt with the IRS and people who gamble on almost a daily basis, I can tell you this GB system is going to blow up eventually.

Incorporating isn't the issue; Managing and running it is.

The tax liability issues would still be there for the organizer if they're collecting funds to be transferred to the GB corp. Maybe I'm missing something (you're the tax guy), but that seems no different than transferring directly to the manufacturer from a tax perspective. If that's a potential issue, then collecting funds and transferring to GB corp would be as well. And if the goal is avoiding organizer mismanagement, there's still inherent risk in sending them the money in the first place.

Assuming the above is correct, GB corp would need to be involved in collecting payments. This has a ton of hidden costs: coordinating with the group buy organizer on pricing and verification (was the right amount sent?); managing and accounting for payments received from multiple simultaneous group buys; dealing with chargebacks (there will _always_ be chargebacks), which now could potentially affect entirely unrelated buys if an account is frozen. This begins to look more and more like a full-time job and business, as opposed to a simple shell corp.

I don't mean to be a naysayer, but the problems above aren't solved for in a weekend, but rather with serious investment by someone committed to it. That's not to say it couldn't happen, but it's not going to happen overnight, and I personally doubt its worth.

I'm gonna respond to this and Spamray's post in the GB thread Bro Caps posted.

[byker]

Hello everyone, the mod team has read through a lot of the gb process feedback, and have summarized some of the points that we thought would be useful, and are looking for feedback: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=80867.0

[LechnerDE]

Just caught up with this thread after I hadn't checked it for months.

I was basically thinking "No need to worry, it's an Ivan GB! Why even bother with posts from impatient people."

Well, consider me shocked 

After having participated in 10 of Ivan's previous (successful) GBs and now seeing this, makes me reconsider my whole attitude towards participating in community GBs. I have participated in over 50 GBs over the last few years at Geekhack and 95% went perfectly fine, but I guess it's just not worth it for me to "gamble" my money anymore.

I have way too much keyboards anyway and keysets that will last me a lifetime, so maybe I should just consider my collection to be good enough.

Really, really sad day for me 

[romevi]

Just caught up with this thread after I hadn't checked it for months.

I was basically thinking "No need to worry, it's an Ivan GB! Why even bother with posts from impatient people."

Well, consider me shocked 

After having participated in 10 of Ivan's previous (successful) GBs and now seeing this, makes me reconsider my whole attitude towards participating in community GBs. I have participated in over 50 GBs over the last few years at Geekhack and 95% went perfectly fine, but I guess it's just not worth it for me to "gamble" my money anymore.

I have way too much keyboards anyway and keysets that will last me a lifetime, so maybe I should just consider my collection to be good enough.

Really, really sad day for me 

Everybody laughs when someone thinks they've reached endgame. Looks like Ivan finally made a bunch people reach endgame.

[Elrick]

Well, consider me shocked 

After having participated in 10 of Ivan's previous (successful) GBs and now seeing this, makes me reconsider my whole attitude towards participating in community GBs. I have participated in over 50 GBs over the last few years at Geekhack and 95% went perfectly fine, but I guess it's just not worth it for me to "gamble" my money anymore.

I have way too much keyboards anyway and keysets that will last me a lifetime, so maybe I should just consider my collection to be good enough.

Really, really sad day for me 

It's the same everywhere now, Geekhack has now transpired into a real scam merchants paradise because they can get away with it.  Fool everyone into waiting past the 180 day Paypal time limit and the deed is done real cheap.

They walk away with thousands in their pocket with no repercussions and what's worse they re-invent a new name here on GH and start all over again, in fact they could indeed create a lifetime of rip-offs from the gullible newbs here and make a good living out of it because this place will never punish them.

This place is now a haven for all sorts of Greedy Sh1tes and the Mods won't stop it ever.  Good one geekhack, you officially excel in aiding the rip-off in scores of people, simply because you think you can avoid any possible future prosecutions.  Either Geekhack creates strict Group Buy timelines within the 180 day limit or forget about GB's in general.   Someone who is really pissed off with being scalped here on this place, could take measures in a federal court which funnily enough can happen quite easily now.

Risk legal repercussions or actually do something other than sit on your arses and read pointless complaints..........you're move GH.

[DanielT]

Just caught up with this thread after I hadn't checked it for months.

I was basically thinking "No need to worry, it's an Ivan GB! Why even bother with posts from impatient people."

Well, consider me shocked 

After having participated in 10 of Ivan's previous (successful) GBs and now seeing this, makes me reconsider my whole attitude towards participating in community GBs. I have participated in over 50 GBs over the last few years at Geekhack and 95% went perfectly fine, but I guess it's just not worth it for me to "gamble" my money anymore.

I have way too much keyboards anyway and keysets that will last me a lifetime, so maybe I should just consider my collection to be good enough.

Really, really sad day for me 

Everybody laughs when someone thinks they've reached endgame. Looks like Ivan finally made a bunch people reach endgame.

This is like going off GB's cold turkey )

[qwack]

Good one geekhack, you officially excel in aiding the rip-off in scores of people, simply because you think you can avoid any possible future prosecutions.  Either Geekhack creates strict Group Buy timelines within the 180 day limit or forget about GB's in general.   Someone who is really pissed off with being scalped here on this place, could take measures in a federal court which funnily enough can happen quite easily now.

Risk legal repercussions or actually do something other than sit on your arses and read pointless complaints..........you're move GH.

I'm no sure I get it. Are you really trying to shift the blame to GH? Aren't you one of those guys who slammed people who complained about Ivan's silence and asked for a refund a few months ago, calling them names for slowing down the GB and whatnot?

Not trying to heat things up, but after reading again pages 18 and 19 I did not expect you to be the one taking that stance.