New here

[Fox]

Hi everyone,

I joined this forum after a quick google search. I really love the look of the site - this theme looks wonderful with vB.

Anyway, I pulled a Model M (1989 model, detachable coiled cord) out of a dumpster when I was about 13, along with an IBM 5150, and I really never bothered to try it with my new computer until a friend made mention of how awesome buckling spring keyboards are, and I finally broke down and bought the PS2/AT adapter from ebay. I absolutely loved it, and used it ever since.

Well, to make a short story shorter, I just received my new Unicomp Customizer 104. It's black, and 'new' looking, and it has windows keys and the context key... but it just feels... cheap. The plastic seems thinner and more brittle, and it just doesn't have the same feel or sound as my old M did - my old one sounded like the M41A sopmod from Call of Duty 4, and this one just sort of sounds muffled.

That said, this is really just a first impression, but from any of your experience, do these keyboards need a break-in period in order to get nice? I only really bought it for the winkeys, context key (which I use a lot) and the USB (because my work computer doesn't have usb, and I thought I might as well just get a new keyboard instead of the adapter).

But if it's not going to get any better, I might as well just sell it. Seems a shame though, since I expected better based on my original m's 'built-like-a-tank' fit and finish.

[xsphat]

Hello Fox. That is unfortunate about the quality, but in defence of Unicomp, many of the members here are quite happy with their Unicomp space savers and EnduraPros. If you are going to sell it, you might do better to offer it up here first.

[Fox]

Maybe I should be gentler on them - after all, I've read several sources that say that the original Model M cost at least $150 in 2008 dollars, so I suppose this is a bargain relative to that...

As I type more on it, I'm finding that the tops of the keys are, in fact, differently shaped than the tops of the caps on the original- they're much more concave. And for some reason, the spacebar tends to register after I hit the next key in the word after the planned space (so that 'the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog' becomes 'theq uick...". Then again, I suppose I have to get used to it before I really can come to a verdict. But it does just seem mushier than my old M - perhaps it was the mileage on that one, having been in service in a college library. It just feels more fluid to me, I don't know...

I just wonder whether anyone else has felt this way.

[bigpook]

So how many years have you been using the Model M?
The reason I ask is simple, if it has been years then that keyboard has become your reference point. If you really like the Model M than no other keyboard will come close, including the Unicomp.

You mention the Unicomp is new, just received. You probably need to give it time to adjust to it. I have IBM Model M's and Unicomp keyboards. They are similar but different. They have a different sound, and the key action is different too. I find the Unicomps tighter then the IBMs, and the Unicomp is not as metallic sounding as the IBM. Is that bad? No, its whatever you prefer.
They still are buckling spring keyboards.

As for cheap and brittle, I don't really agree. But thats my opinion.I have a Unicomp spacesaver that I am currently using. While I really like my IBM keyboards(I have 3) I still prefer the Unicomp.

[Fox]

Thanks for the input!

I've been using my M for about 3 months, since the ebay purchase for the AT adapter is marked as march. Even though I grew up long after keyswitches fell out of mainstream use, it feels like I've been typing on it forever. I almost cry when I have to use the absolutely dreadful board that they have me using at work.

I think I may have been a little too harsh in my description of the unicomp board. It just doesn't have the heft of the original, and the casing seems thinner to me. Can I see it breaking under normal use? Absolutely not. But it's just not on the same level as my 1391401.

In any case, I'll have a long time to get used to it, because it's my new keyboard for work Even in one night I found I'm starting to get used to the different key press it requires, and the slightly different key shape. It beats the tar out of any modern rubber dome keyboard, absolutely no doubt about that.

[bigpook]

Yeah, I think the metal plate in the Unicomp is thinner than the one in the IBM. That will take away some of the weight. I have to agree that overall the Unicomp is not as well built as the IBM, but not in a negative way.

I think the original IBM Model M's are built like heavy tanks. The Unicomp is a light tank. Theyre still tanks though. The full size Model M reminds me of a 50's era Buick, but I am mixing my metaphors..I kind of like the Buick though, all fins and chrome, tearing down the highway, the sun shining off of the hood, ....We're talking about keyboards, right? : ) Sorry, kind of went off the tracks there....

[xsphat]

I refer to my 1391401 as the battleship. I'm an Alps man though, so it doesn't get used that much.

[bhtooefr]

Give it a week or two, let the keyboard break in.

I had a similar impression of cheapness when I got my EnduraPro, and I still think in some ways that it was built cheaply, but now that I'm used to it, even my best 1391401 feels... a bit stiff. This thing is an absolute BREEZE to type on.

[Fox]

Well, after a few months, I have good news and bad news.

The key presses did get a little nicer as I continued to use the keyboard. I used it exclusively at work, and usually had to keep it on my lap under the desk to muffle the sounds. It was worth it.

The bad news is that after all that time, I still wasn't satisfied with the construction, keys/key shape, and overall feel - the keys had play in them causing them to rotate to weird angles, and the tops of the keys were more concave than the regular model m, and I couldn't get used to it. The flip-down legs were floppy and would collapse easily if I pushed the board back. My final verdict for it is that is absolutely not as good of a keyboard for 85 dollars shipped as an original 1391401 is for 20-30.

The good news is that after I let my friend borrow it for a few days, he bought it from me for $65. So, I figure, 20 dollars to have a decent keyboard for a summer's worth of coding is totally worth it.

Another thing I discovered recently is that the "Gallaudet College" that the metal badge on the top of the board refers to is a university for the deaf. So, I'm assuming that's why my keyboard is so incredibly worn in. I don't mind though

[bhtooefr]

And, I've come to a similar conclusion with the EnduraPro - it just doesn't feel right.

I still use it because of the TrackPoint and the Windows keys (almost necessary for a Mac - ironic, isn't it?,) but I prefer typing on my 1993 1391401 that I paid all of $4.99 for.

[xsphat]

... Windows keys (almost necessary for a Mac - ironic, isn't it?,) ...

Not so at all. The Model M mini I'm using right now is great on Mac without a Windows key. I remapped it like this:



And don't forget the HHKB doesn't have a Windows key eitehr and it's one of the best keyboards for Mac, just ask iMav.

[bhtooefr]

That's how I remap my 1391401 when I use it on a Mac, but it's still not quite optimal. That's why I said almost necessary, not just necessary.

And, the HHKB Pro does have a key that can function as Command, right?

[xsphat]

Yeah, either modifier key on each side of the space bar. You select it with the dip switches.

[Fox]

I actually re-mapped my capslock key in windows to be the winkey, as strange as that sounds.

I just use the winkey shortcuts often enough to make it worthwhile. As for the capslock function... well, I tried to re-map it to the scroll lock key, which for me is worthless, but it wouldn't take. I know it's cruise control for cool, but I just never use it. I think I used to disable it back when I owned a keyboard that made no effort to separate any part of the capslock key from the 'a' key.

In other news, I got to experience the model M my brother bought at a yard sale for $1. As it turns out, it's one of the later models with the rubber domes

I feel sorry for him, but for $1, it's still a fantastic keyboard with excellent construction and a good layout.

[lowpoly]

In other news, I got to experience the model M my brother bought at a yard sale for $1. As it turns out, it's one of the later models with the rubber domes

Maybe these are rare?

[Chuque]

In other news, I got to experience the model M my brother bought at a yard sale for $1. As it turns out, it's one of the later models with the rubber domes

I thought all Model Ms were rubber domes.

[xsphat]

I thought all Model Ms were rubber domes.

Nope.

[bhtooefr]

Definitely not.

There is a membrane below the buckling spring mechanisms or rubber dome sheet, however.

[graywolf]

Let's not get confused. Rubber Dome is an actuating method. Buckling Spring is an actuating method. Both are usually membane switches, but not alway. Capacitive switches can be membrane too (not all are), they do not have holes in the middle sheet and the electronics is different but still very similar.

Actuating method is the stuff between the keycaps and the switches. The switches are the things that make electrical contact. There are a lot more actuating methods than there are switching methods. AFAIK there are only four common switching methods, membrane, mechanical, capacitive, and hall effect.

Highend rubberdomes can be pretty damn good, but are not up to the best mechanical actuating methods. The buckling spring atuators can be very very good, if they are properly tuned, most are not properly tune and only are pretty damn good. Other mechanical methods range from OK to very very good. Which is best is a matter of personal preference, and almost none of them have such quality control that everyone of a given keyboard model will feel identical.

The real problem is that some keyboards are expensive because they are real good keyboards that are expensive to make, and some are expensive because they are extensively advertised. The two are not usually the same.

[Fox]

What do you mean by "properly tuned"? How exactly does one tune a buckling spring keyboard?

[bhtooefr]

Spring weights and such.

I think my 1391401 is properly tuned, and feels like a well-oiled machine when typing.

My EnduraPro has varying spring weights, some keys don't slide as smoothly as they should, and just feels... odd. It's certainly better than a rubber dome, but...

[bigpook]

I read somewhere, here I think, that the IBM model M's have a pretty wide tolerance when it came to the springs. I have had 4 Model M's and each one had a different feel. Some better than others, I might add. I went so far as to basically give away a Model M mini where I thought the feel was way too light.

I have 2 unicomp keyboards, and I read here I think, that their tolerances were somewhat tighter. Which makes sense to me, since both 'boards have the same feel.


My HHKBP2 is on the desk above me, I type this on a 1989 full size model M. While the keypad annoys me, everything else about it is just so right.

PS: while it may be true that the Model M's are membrane, I don't think it is rational to compare it to a rubber dome keyboard.

[graywolf]

PS: while it may be true that the Model M's are membrane, I don't think it is rational to compare it to a rubber dome keyboard.

Sure it is, of course comparing them is not the same thing as saying they are equal. That is the point, they are both membrane keyboards, but they feel and sound entirely different because the actuating method is different.

The thing is that for different uses different designs are needed. The Model M was designed for millions of secrataries typing billions of letters. On the other hand the HHKB Kite seems to have been designed for gamers pounding excitedly on a few keys. Entirely different use factors.

Touch typists, as the word implies, type by feel. While a hunt and pecker types by eye. The first wants a keyboard that tells them what is happening without looking at it. The second wants a keyboard that is easy to see. A gamer, I imagine, as I am not one, wants a keyboard that is strong and silent and does not have any funny feel to it. I do not think anyone would  claim a Model M is a great gaming keyboard.

So the HHKB Lite that I hate would I imagine delight a gamer, and a H&P would be happy with it. The point here is that a keyboard that does not suit you is not necessarily a bad keyboard, it was just designed for a different purpose than you are trying to use it for.

And rubber dome keyboard can be anything from utter crap to pretty damn good keyboards. It is not the technology that is bad, it is the cheap materials and poor design that is used in most of them. As I have said a good one is not bad at all. In fact they can be designed to have about any feel profile you could imagine, which can not be said for some of the other technology. So instead of denigrating rubber dome keyboards we should be denigrating cheap junk keyboards instead.

[bigpook]

You are right, I will take that last comment back....