Author Topic: LED swap on Model M  (Read 12524 times)

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Offline 0100010

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LED swap on Model M
« on: Fri, 12 October 2012, 10:22:34 »
I want to swap the green LEDs on my Unicomp Model M for blue ones.

1 - Don't kill me, yes it is a Model M - but its not some rare original or anything.

2 - Don't kill me, yes I know that blue is the bastard color of all LEDs, that everyone in general hates, etc; but - they would go very well with the black / blue color scheme that I have for this board.

3 - Now that we have that out of the way - any pointers / tips?  I have not yet measured the voltage that is being fed to the LED PCB.  It is a PS2 keyboard, and the LEDs are on their own small PCB fed with a 4 trace ribbon cable - but I would doubt that little board is getting +5V (but I could be wrong).  I understand green LEDs are typically fairly low fV, and I would prefer to be a lazy as possible when swapping them; is anyone aware of some low fV blue LEDs that would work as a direct replacement?

Thanks!
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Offline MechKey

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 12 October 2012, 12:33:25 »
You might fry your keyboard.  Blues need a bigger voltage drop.

Offline samwisekoi

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 12 October 2012, 13:01:50 »
You might fry your keyboard.  Blues need a bigger voltage drop.

How about reds?  My Caps Lock LED flickers anyhow.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline Soarer

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 12 October 2012, 13:17:59 »
There's resistors somewhere, just change them as well.
It won't fry anything to just swap the LEDs, but most/all blues will end up too bright anyway, even though the higher Vf means a lower current... (5 - Vf) / R... because they're mostly more efficient.

Offline 0100010

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 12 October 2012, 14:19:11 »
So, either go with another low V LED, such as red; or locate the existing resistors for the current greens. 

Will have to think about that...
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Offline Soarer

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 12 October 2012, 14:26:44 »
The main issue is that LEDs have got more efficient - even swapping in something with the same Vf might be a lot brighter that you want. Easier to find 'regular' low efficiency red LEDs than blue though, I suspect.

Offline 0100010

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 12 October 2012, 18:14:54 »
Three whole resistors to choose from....

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Offline 0100010

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 12 October 2012, 18:31:08 »
+V to the LED board is...



2 volts!

(Sorry about the crappy images)
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Offline MechKey

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 12 October 2012, 18:45:25 »
You need more juice.

Offline Soarer

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 12 October 2012, 20:10:39 »
You don't need more juice.

Odd that there isn't 3 resistors together!

Still, you have a meter, so unplug the keyboard and trace the circuit :)

Offline MechKey

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 13 October 2012, 09:58:46 »
You don't need more juice.

Odd that there isn't 3 resistors together!

Still, you have a meter, so unplug the keyboard and trace the circuit :)

He needs more juice!

3-4v is pretty standard.

http://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/component-leds/5mm-blue-led-15-degree-viewing-angle-5500-mcd/269/

Offline Soarer

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 13 October 2012, 10:44:27 »
You don't need more juice.

Odd that there isn't 3 resistors together!

Still, you have a meter, so unplug the keyboard and trace the circuit :)

He needs more juice!

3-4v is pretty standard.

http://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/component-leds/5mm-blue-led-15-degree-viewing-angle-5500-mcd/269/

You need more understanding of LEDs, #1.



It's easy.

Offline samwisekoi

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #12 on: Sat, 13 October 2012, 11:03:35 »
It's easy.

Thank you very much.  I've been building that circuit for years, but never seen it explained so well or concisely.

Thanks!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

p.s.  Since I never use it (or see it lit), I might go wire the Scroll Lock LED up as a power indicator.   Mmmmm.  Solder smoke.  Mmmmm.
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

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Offline Lu_e

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 13 October 2012, 11:37:40 »
'the smoke from the flux is filling his lungs, he's earning minimum wage...'

who can tell me the song without google? :p I think of that everytime I solder.

Offline samwisekoi

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 13 October 2012, 11:44:56 »
'the smoke from the flux is filling his lungs, he's earning minimum wage...'

who can tell me the song without google? :p I think of that everytime I solder.

I don't know, but I do know my Dad taught me to solder when I was a lad -- before they took lead out of solder.

Apparently this would now be considered child abuse because of the lead-poisoning.

What were we talking about here again?  :confused:

 - Ron | samwisekoi
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline MechKey

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 13 October 2012, 12:29:42 »
You don't need more juice.

Odd that there isn't 3 resistors together!

Still, you have a meter, so unplug the keyboard and trace the circuit :)

He needs more juice!

3-4v is pretty standard.

http://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/component-leds/5mm-blue-led-15-degree-viewing-angle-5500-mcd/269/

You need more understanding of LEDs, #1.

(Attachment Link)

It's easy.

I know that.  He needs to lower the resistor value and supply more VOLTAGE.
« Last Edit: Sat, 13 October 2012, 19:20:53 by reaper »

Offline wcass

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 13 October 2012, 13:28:06 »
IIRC, the M uses a common + and resistors on the - side (but double check me).

i have a similar controller - with the 16 and 12 flat-flexible connectors. the leds are the right-most (left most in your picture) 4 pins. 3rd from right is LED common. i dropped my controller on a flatbed scanner to get these shots. high resolution shots at the bottom:
5963-0
* PCB_back_hi.JPG (738.79 kB. 3787x1193 - viewed 245 times.)
* PCB_front_hi.JPG (364.46 kB. 3669x1322 - viewed 231 times.)
« Last Edit: Sat, 13 October 2012, 13:40:20 by wcass »

Offline Soarer

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 13 October 2012, 14:42:42 »
IIRC, the M uses a common + and resistors on the - side (but double check me).

That's quite likely. It doesn't make any difference to the calculations when deciding what value of resistor to use, but it does mean that the voltage measured earlier wouldn't be the Vf of the LED...



(assuming -Volts is 0V, as it is in a Model M).
« Last Edit: Sat, 13 October 2012, 14:44:49 by Soarer »

Offline MechKey

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 13 October 2012, 19:35:24 »
Toss a 75 ohm resistor in there.  100 to be conservative.

Offline Soarer

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 13 October 2012, 21:33:06 »
You don't need more juice.

Odd that there isn't 3 resistors together!

Still, you have a meter, so unplug the keyboard and trace the circuit :)

He needs more juice!

3-4v is pretty standard.

http://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/component-leds/5mm-blue-led-15-degree-viewing-angle-5500-mcd/269/

You need more understanding of LEDs, #1.

(Attachment Link)

It's easy.

I know that.  He needs to lower the resistor value and supply more VOLTAGE.

You clearly don't know, since changing the resistor value makes no difference to the VOLTAGE.

Toss a 75 ohm resistor in there.  100 to be conservative.

No. Don't. It would be too bright.

Even basic blue LEDs put out more light per mA than the low-brightness green LEDs that are in there.

Offline wcass

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #20 on: Sat, 13 October 2012, 21:41:16 »
OK, i traced the traces and measured the resisters on my controller.
the "top" resistor (R17 on top silkscreen) is 365 ohm and continues to a pin on U2, the two bottom resistors (R20, R21) are 125 ohm and continue to pins on U1. the "common" trace does appear to be +

this suggests that the current is different between the two ICs - right?

most greens are 2.2v. have you considered red LEDs - the voltage drop is close enough to green to not be a problem (typically 2.0v, but you can order 2.2v).  if you must go blue, Digikey part# 754-1596-ND is 3.3v - maybe that is close enough. you would be under-driving, but it might work.

i found a better match for blue - search for SSL-DSP5093USBC
« Last Edit: Sat, 13 October 2012, 22:00:26 by wcass »

Offline Soarer

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #21 on: Sat, 13 October 2012, 21:51:43 »
Not sure what it suggests, apart from a pretty strange arrangement!

Too many IFs...

Can you measure the voltage on the chip end of the resistors, both with LEDs on and with them off?

Offline 0100010

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #22 on: Sat, 13 October 2012, 22:16:43 »
My one attempt to try and trace my controller was thwarted today, had to re-seat the soap tray on the tile wall in my kids bathroom tub.  Perhaps tomorrow.
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Offline wcass

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #23 on: Sat, 13 October 2012, 22:29:36 »
0100010, if you have a flat bed scanner then use that at 600dpi. that is what i did for the hi-res pictures below and made it easy to trace. your controller is different from mine, so you should do the test Soarer suggests below. it's late for me, so off to bed.

Offline 0100010

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 15 October 2012, 11:36:28 »
Not anymore.  My last scanner was given away along with a whole lot of other old/spare PC parts a few months ago to a local e-cycler.  The thing got use maybe twice a year, for the past few years.

That being said, my keyboard I wanted to put blue LEDs on, is now my daily driver in my office.  Will try to get some pics up, if I can find a decent camera....

Maybe will look into putting some red or amber LEDs eventually.
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Offline 0100010

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 16 October 2012, 11:45:41 »
Soarer - what if I built a Teensy USB controller from your XT / AT / Terminal to USB thread?  Could use the +5V from the Teensy to light some blue LEDs that way I imagine...
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Offline oTurtlez

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 16 October 2012, 11:58:35 »
Soarer - what if I built a Teensy USB controller from your XT / AT / Terminal to USB thread?  Could use the +5V from the Teensy to light some blue LEDs that way I imagine...

In the guide it does show how to add LED's, at least I think it does. I would assume that if you just converted it to usb via the Teensy project and then remove the green LED's and put some blue ones it their place wired to the teensy, that should in theory do what you need it to do.
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Offline Soarer

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 16 October 2012, 15:02:18 »
Well sure, it would work. But you'd still have to pick some resistors that suited your blue LEDs. And it seems a complex way to go about swapping some LEDs!!

I still say simply swapping in some blue LEDs will be fine - as long as you find some that are low brightness. Most of the previously suggested LEDs have been ultra-bright types, 2000mcd or more, and they would need a whopping resistor (maybe 10k or more) to get them to be dim enough.

Alternatively, pick some bright ones and fit some extra resistors somewhere. Even that is simpler than building my converter just for LEDs!

The big problem is not knowing what resistor value will work nicely with any given LED. I usually find it's a case of trial and error, when running them at a low level. So unless you want to stock up on a wide selection of resistors, it's best to guess and live with the consequences :)

We have to make a guess anyway as to what the original LED's mcd rating is - I'd say about 10mcd. So using the same reisistors, you'd probably want blue LEDs with less than 4V Vf and about 15 to 20mcd. Perhaps these... it looks like there's quite a few to choose from.

edit: all of this is assuming that there's nothing too unusual in how the LEDs are powered. There's a question mark over that until we know what voltage (probably 0V) that the chips put onto the resistors.
« Last Edit: Tue, 16 October 2012, 15:14:49 by Soarer »

Offline 0100010

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 16 October 2012, 16:20:00 »
I think the lowest Vf blue LEDs I could find were :

http://evilmadscience.com/productsmenu/partsmenu/341 @ 2.7V, but they are still 900mcd...
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Offline Soarer

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 16 October 2012, 16:29:20 »
I've repeatedly explained that it's not important to get the lowest possible Vf, so please, stop worrying about it!

Offline 0100010

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 16 October 2012, 16:40:24 »
I tried two different blue LEDs from a local store with no success using the power supplied from the controller as is; they wouldn't even light.  I think the first ones were 5V 30ma 300mcd (before I measured what was making it to the LED PCB), then the others were 3.7V 20ma 2600mcd (stupid bright when connecting them to a different power source).

So - instead of attempting to trace the resistors on the controller, I figured why not just start with the higher voltage from USB / Teensy and then drop that down to match the LEDs I can get.
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Offline 0100010

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #31 on: Tue, 16 October 2012, 16:43:13 »
The more I look at the board - the green actually doesn't look too bad either...

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Offline Soarer

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #32 on: Tue, 16 October 2012, 20:00:10 »
Well I can understand the first one not working with a Vf of 5V, but the second one is surprising.

Vf isn't a constant BTW, it varies with the current. This graph is for a blue LED with a nominal Vf of 3.3V at 20mA...

6201-0

When you said +V to the LED board was 2V, where were you measuring across? And was that with the LEDs connected?

Offline 0100010

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 16 October 2012, 21:29:01 »
Was from the connector the ribbon cable coonects to when num lock was active, with the LEDs connected.  I suppose I should pul the LED PCB and re-measure...
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Offline Soarer

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 16 October 2012, 22:10:19 »
So from ground to the num-lock line?

More measurements would be good :)

I'd like to confirm that the LEDs are being switched on the -ve side... if that's the case then 5V will also appear somewhere on that connector (and therefore the Vf of the green LEDs is about 3V). If not then 0V will be there. In either case, it would be the same regardless of whether the LEDs are connected or not.

The voltage when the LEDs are disconnected might tell us something as well.


edit: Found a thread where swapping just the LEDs in a Customizer worked fine.
« Last Edit: Tue, 16 October 2012, 22:34:21 by Soarer »

Offline 0100010

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 17 October 2012, 08:27:27 »
W/o the LED PCB connected, the ribbon cable leads for each LED indicates ~4.6V.
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Offline 0100010

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #36 on: Wed, 17 October 2012, 08:28:55 »
IIRC, the M uses a common + and resistors on the - side (but double check me).

i have a similar controller - with the 16 and 12 flat-flexible connectors. the leds are the right-most (left most in your picture) 4 pins. 3rd from right is LED common. i dropped my controller on a flatbed scanner to get these shots. high resolution shots at the bottom:
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)

The 4 trace ribbon cable to the LED PCB on my board is the same, with the 3rd (or 2nd, depending on which direction you look from) being common.
« Last Edit: Wed, 17 October 2012, 08:31:50 by 0100010 »
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Offline 0100010

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #37 on: Wed, 17 October 2012, 13:09:11 »
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Offline Soarer

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #38 on: Wed, 17 October 2012, 13:31:56 »
W/o the LED PCB connected, the ribbon cable leads for each LED indicates ~4.6V.

Is that with the locks on or off?

IIRC, the M uses a common + and resistors on the - side (but double check me).

i have a similar controller - with the 16 and 12 flat-flexible connectors. the leds are the right-most (left most in your picture) 4 pins. 3rd from right is LED common. i dropped my controller on a flatbed scanner to get these shots. high resolution shots at the bottom:
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)

The 4 trace ribbon cable to the LED PCB on my board is the same, with the 3rd (or 2nd, depending on which direction you look from) being common.

So the common is +5V (or close) as we expected?

Maybe these LEDs would work?

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/521-9831F/350-1560-ND/808958

Looks potentially viable. The mcd rating might mean it's a bit dim though.

There's another thing to be watchful of... LEDs are tested at different currents, and the mcd rating is at that current. So one that says 12.5mcd tested at 10mA is about the same brightness (looking head on) as one that says 25mcd at 20mA.

Offline 0100010

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #39 on: Wed, 17 October 2012, 14:34:45 »
+4.6V with LED on, 0.0V with the LED off

Yes - common is pretty close to 5V

Didn't see any other in stock diffused white lens radial through hole blue LEDs at digikey, the one I posted above just happened to be 12.5mcd.

Could try another local store or two - see what they have.
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Offline Soarer

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #40 on: Wed, 17 October 2012, 14:42:15 »
+4.6V with LED on, 0.0V with the LED off

Yes - common is pretty close to 5V

I expected it to be the other way round - 0V with lock on (or for common to be 0V). Typo?


Offline wcass

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #41 on: Wed, 17 October 2012, 15:39:45 »
the M uses a common vcc for the LEDs.
« Last Edit: Wed, 17 October 2012, 15:42:16 by wcass »

Offline Renderman

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Re: LED swap on Model M
« Reply #42 on: Sat, 09 February 2019, 01:14:09 »
I replaced the LEDs in my Model M with some random blue LEDs i had laying around. They just worked. They were a bit bright so i rigged a 10k pot in the circuit. Dialed in the brightness i liked then measured the resistance of the pot and put in resistors of that approximate value. The Model M indeed has a common Vcc (+5v) for the LEDs.