Author Topic: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board  (Read 117583 times)

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Offline jeffgran

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Re: ManuForm (was: Ergo56 -- crazy idea for a mini, foldable ergo keyboard)
« Reply #50 on: Sat, 14 November 2015, 21:25:56 »
Man, doing all this soldering for the hand wiring is really a pain in the ass. I can't believe so many people have done this. Even hand-soldering those little teeny SMD diodes on the ErgoDox PCB was easier in my estimation. ;)
Use Ø 0.2 mm enameled (magnet) wire instead of a wire with a plastics insulation. You will save time stripping insulation at the right places. Soldering iron (at abut 400 °C) will just burn through the enamel at the joint place. The enamel will stay insulating the wires on the other places.
Check the last picture in this post for an example.

Nice project. Keep going on.

Hey, thanks. Great tip. Too late for me now, but I totally would have tried that if I had known before.

Offline jeffgran

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #51 on: Sat, 14 November 2015, 21:30:10 »
Glad to see this working, but aren't the diodes wrong?  They appear to be wired with the black end of the top switch connected to the clear end of the one below, where usually all the black ends are connected.

If you press the three top middle corner switches (Y U and H?) at the same time does it detect a press of J?

Yes, totally! They are wrong, but the effect I got was not ghosting (which I think is what you're getting at with holding down the three keys), what I got was that the top row just did not work. Believe it or not I just desoldered all of the diodes and did them all over again, but attaching them like you say: with the clear end of each connected to the switch, and the black end of each all connected to an (electrically) common point, and from there back to the controller. Here's the updated picture of the wiring (though I think it's kinda hard to see all the detail, sorry for phone pic):

117226-0

Offline jeffgran

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #52 on: Sat, 14 November 2015, 21:39:43 »
Congratulations. You did a really nice job on this. I can definitely understand the thrill. Whenever I fire up a new board for the first time and it works, I have an uncontrollable urge to giggle. I'm all by myself and I'm giggling. Go figure.

So how does it feel using it? Do you think it will take long to get use to the physical layout? Any concerns?


Hah, nice. And good questions.

* The physical layout feels divine... I knew I liked it because I had made so many prototypes and got it so that it was perfectly comfortable to my hands. My goal was to get it so that ALL of the keys on the board, including all 6 keys per thumb, were easy to press *without* moving my hand.

The reason I like using the keyboard for everything instead of the mouse is that it's faster because I don't have to move my hand over to the mouse and then back. So I wanted to be able to hit all of the keys without moving my hand. And, I'm a programmer so I hate how certain common keys (like the ` or _ or \) I can't hit without moving my hand over to hit it, and then I "lose my place" back on the home row and it breaks my stride.

So in that sense, I definitely achieved my goal. Surprisingly the one key that I've found that's the hardest/most uncomfortable to hit is the bottom row very outer key (like where you'd think SHIFT would be) for the pinky. The middle and top are easier to hit than the bottom.

The biggest concern now is practicing with the layout that I've set up and getting the muscle memory. This is a "40%"-type of board, which I've never had or tried before. You'll notice there are only 3 rows of keys -- no number row, no room for symbols, so all of that is on other layers. The layers are triggered by some of the thumb keys. So we'll see how long it takes. I really hope I end up liking it since I spent all this time developing it. :)  But so far so good.

I also intend to put a new soft-layout of the letter keys on there, but I think for now I'm going to stick with QWERTY while I get used to the rest of it, so there's not so much to learn at the same time.

Offline kurplop

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #53 on: Sat, 14 November 2015, 21:53:09 »
I ran into the problem of liking my custom board so much that I can't stand using anything else. I'm not real quick at adapting to change (What's that saying about old dogs and new tricks?) and I like my muscle memory just as it is.

You did an amazing job on your board and I'm truly happy for you because I also know the joy of typing on something that makes sense for you.

Offline jeffgran

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #54 on: Sat, 14 November 2015, 22:23:51 »
Thanks for your kind words, @kurplop.

@all I updated the first post with more info, including all of the files and information in case anyone wants to build one just like mine! Info is here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46015.msg966802#msg966802

Offline Heliobb

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #55 on: Sun, 15 November 2015, 06:06:09 »
Thanks for the recap. Really appreciate.

Which cable did you use. I'm trying to buy some on aliexpress, but their is too many references.
« Last Edit: Sun, 15 November 2015, 06:11:38 by Heliobb »
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #56 on: Sun, 15 November 2015, 06:41:31 »
Yup, was talking about ghosting but it was the other way :))

Thanks a lot for the files - will have to get on a sensible sizes screen and see how my hand matches up - it doesn't look that dissimilar in a tiny version :D
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Offline jeffgran

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #57 on: Sun, 15 November 2015, 14:03:36 »
Thanks for the recap. Really appreciate.

Which cable did you use. I'm trying to buy some on aliexpress, but their is too many references.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B4ZRPEY?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00

It doesn't really matter which wire you use, any wire will do. This is the one I got, just because it's short lengths of multiple different colors. It's 22AWG though, which is pretty thick, probably thicker than necessary and made it a little more difficult to work with. If I did it again I might choose 24 or even higher (remember higher number is thinner).

Offline Heliobb

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #58 on: Sun, 15 November 2015, 15:32:25 »
Thanks for the recap. Really appreciate.

Which cable did you use. I'm trying to buy some on aliexpress, but their is too many references.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B4ZRPEY?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00

It doesn't really matter which wire you use, any wire will do. This is the one I got, just because it's short lengths of multiple different colors. It's 22AWG though, which is pretty thick, probably thicker than necessary and made it a little more difficult to work with. If I did it again I might choose 24 or even higher (remember higher number is thinner).

Thanks will know what I need for my next keyboard.
Novatouch TKL - Leopold FC660C - PBT my life.

Offline hasu

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #59 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 21:37:30 »
Congrat and really great job!

Hasu if you're listening, THANK YOU for your tmk firmware, it is so amazing! I feel like there's nothing it can't do, and I can't wait to keep tweaking my layouts and layers to my liking.


Offline derezzed

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #60 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 22:51:46 »
I'd really like to type on this.  I like the ergodox design but the thumb clusters always seemed poorly laid out for touch typing.  It looks like your design could allow multiple simultaneous key presses if you're not careful with thumb placement, but it also looks like a big improvement over the ergodox design.  I'm guessing you type on the innermost blue thumb keys with the balls of your thumbs, and the outer blue thumb keys with the tips of your thumbs.  Is that correct?

Offline jeffgran

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #61 on: Tue, 17 November 2015, 21:10:03 »
I'd really like to type on this.  I like the ergodox design but the thumb clusters always seemed poorly laid out for touch typing.  It looks like your design could allow multiple simultaneous key presses if you're not careful with thumb placement, but it also looks like a big improvement over the ergodox design.  I'm guessing you type on the innermost blue thumb keys with the balls of your thumbs, and the outer blue thumb keys with the tips of your thumbs.  Is that correct?

I had the same experience. I got an ergodox and thought I was going to really like it, but the thumb cluster was just unusable except for the two large keys on each side, for me. This design came out of my experience with the ergodox and the kinesis advantage (which is more comfortable and a little better, but still has the same problem, that you can't reach all the thumb keys very easily).

To answer your question: I hit all of the thumb keys including the small inner ones with the "pad" of my thumb... the part just opposite the thumbnail, if that makes sense. I don't hit them with the "ball", or the knuckle/joint part. It's possible, and you could do it that way, but I don't find that comfortable. It's probably hard to tell from the pictures but those "inner" ones, closest to the palm of your hand, are recessed and angled a little to make them reachable/pressable without really moving your wrist or your hand.

You can't really hold down more than one thumb key with the same thumb though. I never really intended that to be the case... all of my combinations are either one key with each thumb or one thumb and one pinky, etc. I never use the same thumb for two keys at once. Oobly's board does have that though, if that's what you're looking for. His only has 4 keys per thumb though and they're all right in a little 4-key cluster together.

Offline jeffgran

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #62 on: Wed, 18 November 2015, 00:02:58 »
Hmm, on second thought I take that back. I just was playing with it and it's definitely possible and actually kinda easier to use the "ball" of the thumb on those inner keys, and in fact to a horizontal pair of the blue thumb keys at the same time with one thumb (though my current keymap doesn't make that useful). But I will try hitting them that way while I work tomorrow and see if I like it better. Thanks for the idea! :)

Offline hoggy

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #63 on: Fri, 20 November 2015, 06:52:48 »
Looks good!  The pictures of the inside remind me of Maltron - they use vacuum forming to achieve a similar result.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline Oobly

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #64 on: Wed, 25 November 2015, 04:51:11 »
Looking good!

Nice to see you making progress on your design. I'll be revisiting mine when I have time. I want to try ML switches for the thumb clusters so I can move them in closer to the main switches. The thumb buttons really do seem to take the most effort to get right, IME.
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Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #65 on: Sat, 28 November 2015, 14:05:45 »
Looks good!  The pictures of the inside remind me of Maltron - they use vacuum forming to achieve a similar result.

Yea, I was going to say, this is like a more evolved and compact version of the Maltron.  Well done.
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Offline jeffgran

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #66 on: Mon, 30 November 2015, 00:20:53 »
Looking good!

Nice to see you making progress on your design. I'll be revisiting mine when I have time. I want to try ML switches for the thumb clusters so I can move them in closer to the main switches. The thumb buttons really do seem to take the most effort to get right, IME.

I agree. After a few weeks of typing on mine, there is one mistake I think I made with regard to the thumb key placement. The two 1.5x white keys in the picture are staggered so that the "inner" one (meaning more under the hand, would be called "outer" if you're looking at the whole board and considering the middle of it more "inner") is lower. This felt good in testing and does feel good to type, but it makes it a little laborious to hit that key because you have to bring your thumb up and over the higher one. I think I should have made it less lowered, maybe even on an even plane with the other one, even thought that might look odd because it would be pretty high.

But if I ever do make a v2 of this board that thumb issue and the foldability/portability will be the two things I want to tackle.

I did see in another thread that you were thinking about playing with ML switches. I considered them just because of the short throw... but decided to jailhouse-blues my blue switches instead, and loving it so far. Will be very curious to see what happens with your next project.

Offline Darkshado

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #67 on: Sun, 03 January 2016, 00:53:50 »
Great write-up and very interesting looking result!

For the sound dampening, I wonder if some sort of expanding foam might work well e.g. protect / mask the interior of the case + switches + wiring + controller with plastic sheeting, spray, trim, ???????, quiet!

Offline FoC_Tow

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #68 on: Sun, 03 January 2016, 11:53:40 »
This is some next-level space age stuff.
Great project.

Im definitely getting that alien technologies vibe too, awesome build!  :thumb:

If, as a game designer, I ever get the task of designing some sort of spacecraft interiors
I would very much consider asking you for allowance to incorporate something along your design!  :)

Offline Zustiur

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #69 on: Sat, 09 January 2016, 22:17:27 »
Awesome work. Your hands look pretty similar to mine so I'd love to give this a try. Pity that my work is too heavily mouse reliant to have a 3d keyboard be useful. I'd definitely consider getting this shell printed if it weren't for that issue.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #70 on: Fri, 15 January 2016, 03:57:30 »
Nice work. Looks very functional

Offline WhittlesJr

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #71 on: Thu, 05 May 2016, 14:01:08 »
Hey! I created an account just to reply to this thread.

I've taken a real interest in your ManuForm keyboard. Of all the designs I've seen on the internet, yours looks the most comfy to me, and I really want to make one for myself to replace my "Truly"Ergonomic.

I've got a few questions before I take the $430+ plunge, though:
  • After a while typing on the thing, are there any other issues you've found, other than the thumb button thing you mentioned?
  • The span of my hands is about 9 inches. Is your span close? Should I bother re-sizing the thing to fit my measurements? 
  • What about the width of the keyboard, and the separation of the hands? Do you think it would be worth adjusting for myself or is it kind of one-size-fits-all? (I'm about 6'6")
  • Would it be advisable to try to fix that thumb button issue? Could it be done relatively confidently without making a prototype?
  • What keycaps did you use, and where did you get them? Do you recommend DCS or SA, or what?
  • Related to the last question, I have a very custom layout I've been typing with for years. Can you recommend a company to go with for making a one-off set of custom keycaps for my ManuForm? It would have to accommodate a non-standard layout with multiple layers represented on each key.
  • Again on the keycap issue, but much less important: is it possible to make this thing backlit? That would crank the sci-fi factor up a notch XD
  • Have you tried transporting it much? Unless I build two of them, I'd probably have to lug one around almost daily. Any thoughts on that?

I seriously admire your dedication, and I believe that your years of effort have produced a superior product. No offense to any of the other makers on here, I've seen a lot of great designs. But this looks like the board for me!

Offline jeffgran

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #72 on: Fri, 06 May 2016, 15:24:48 »
Cool, thanks for your interest! It would be awesome to see another one of these in the wild. I love mine and I use it at work all day every day.

After a while typing on the thing, are there any other issues you've found, other than the thumb button thing you mentioned?

There is one other thing I would change if I were to make another one. Since there are only three rows of keys, on my numpad layer there is no place to put a '.' key, so when typing in numbers with decimal points (and especially things like ip addresses) I have to "unshift" the numpad layer for every '.' -- so I'd want fourth key for the ring finger and maybe the middle finger too, since there is room on the hardware design there too. But that's a small issue.

Quote
The span of my hands is about 9 inches. Is your span close? Should I bother re-sizing the thing to fit my measurements?

Depending on how much I stretch my hand out the span (you're talking about from tip of pinky to tip of thumb, right?) is about 8-8.5 inches maybe 9 if I really stretch.

Quote
What about the width of the keyboard, and the separation of the hands? Do you think it would be worth adjusting for myself or is it kind of one-size-fits-all? (I'm about 6'6")

It's about 13 inches wide, but the hand wells are angled out -- so the intention is that your elbows are wide and your forearms are angled inwards. I think you'd probably be fine. I guess maybe the only thing you may have to worry about would be if you have thicker fingertips, maybe the keys would be too close together? But I would think that would be the same on any keyboard.

Quote
Would it be advisable to try to fix that thumb button issue? Could it be done relatively confidently without making a prototype?

Eh, I don't think it's worth the risk and the trouble. I put a short keycap on the one 1.5x key and a taller one on the other 1.5x key so they are closer to even. It works pretty well. Also as my hands/fingers get used to the placement I notice the "problem" a lot less.

Quote
What keycaps did you use, and where did you get them? Do you recommend DCS or SA, or what?

I have DCS keycaps on there. I tried with DSA but did not like it at all. The additional sculpting/angles on DCS makes the touch feel much nicer. I put R5 on the top row, R2 on the middle row, and R3 on the bottom row (I think I have those right).

Quote
Related to the last question, I have a very custom layout I've been typing with for years. Can you recommend a company to go with for making a one-off set of custom keycaps for my ManuForm? It would have to accommodate a non-standard layout with multiple layers represented on each key.

No idea... Signature Plastics (now pimpmykeyboard.com) is where I go for most of my keycaps but I have never tried ordering a one-off custom set. My guess is that it would be expensive. Maybe look around or ask around in the Group Buy section? Those guys are masters of ordering keycaps.

Quote
Again on the keycap issue, but much less important: is it possible to make this thing backlit? That would crank the sci-fi factor up a notch XD

No idea. Not sure if you need extra wires or what for that. I haven't really looked into it.

Quote
Have you tried transporting it much? Unless I build two of them, I'd probably have to lug one around almost daily. Any thoughts on that?

It's pretty easy to carry in one hand, but I just leave mine at work. It's not convenient to put into a backpack or anything, so you kinda have to hold it in your hand.


Quote
I seriously admire your dedication, and I believe that your years of effort have produced a superior product. No offense to any of the other makers on here, I've seen a lot of great designs. But this looks like the board for me!

Thanks man. I usually try to stay humble but in this case I have to agree. This is the best keyboard there is right now. I tried and tried to find something like it but made it out of necessity because no one IMHO was doing it right.

It would be the ultimate flattery to see someone else build my design too -- so if you do decide to give it a shot I'll help in any way I can, and I'd totally love to see pictures of it when it's done. :)

Offline WhittlesJr

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #73 on: Fri, 06 May 2016, 17:19:10 »
Jeff, thank you for the reply! You answered all my questions very well.

I think the decimal issue can be solved with tinkering with the firmware layout, and your hands seem pretty close in size and shape to mine, so it sounds like I can stick with the existing design! I think I'll order my parts pretty soon, and I'll keep you updated with my progress.

I'm probably going to need the most help with the wiring, since I've never put a keyboard together before. A wiring diagram would sure help, as the photos are a little hard to follow for an amateur like myself.

I seriously can't stop thinking about having one of these, my TrulyErgonomic seems so backwards in comparison. Thank you for sharing the fruit of your labor!
« Last Edit: Fri, 06 May 2016, 17:21:11 by WhittlesJr »

Offline WhittlesJr

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #74 on: Fri, 06 May 2016, 17:24:26 »
Oh, I thought of one additional question:

What exact style of keycaps did you use on the thumb buttons?

Offline jeffgran

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #75 on: Sat, 07 May 2016, 13:21:08 »
These are the keycaps: http://pimpmykeyboard.com/dcs-1-5-space-pack-of-4/

I currently have one R2 and one R1 on each side.

I'll try to work on a wiring diagram... you're right though, that was the hardest part.

Offline WhittlesJr

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #76 on: Sat, 07 May 2016, 15:51:49 »
Perfect, thank you! Should the smaller 4 thumb buttons on each side be a particular style as well?

Offline jeffgran

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #77 on: Mon, 09 May 2016, 11:46:56 »
Perfect, thank you! Should the smaller 4 thumb buttons on each side be a particular style as well?

Had to wait until I was back at work to check. Currently I have 3 tall R5 and one short R2 on each side. I have them all oriented different ways... I just played with different caps until it sorta "felt right".

Offline WhittlesJr

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #78 on: Mon, 16 May 2016, 08:49:05 »
Thanks again! That helps a lot.

I just ordered my parts! I was curious why the 3D print was so expensive so I looked into the margin you added, and I don't at all mind ordering from your store. You deserve compensation for your investment.

Also, I spent a laughably long time tweaking my layout, and I think I'm done (until I get a chance to test it out and refine it further). If you're interested in it, the layout and an explanation of it follows:

The alphabet layout is based off of Dvorak with some improvements that make it more efficient while still maintaining Dvorak's original hand alternation mechanic. It also ensures that commonly paired letters are on separate fingers, as much as possible. (Analysis: http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/load/kbHfrnk5. Takes a bit to load.)

It starts getting silly on the symbol layer, as I threw in a bunch of "maybe I'll use this some day" Unicode symbols because I had room. The symbol to the right is always the "shifted" version, so you could hit Symbol + shift  + < to get the less-than-equals sign. I tried to pair up like symbols, like the "exponentiation" sign (^) and the root sign (√). I also threw in true quote marks and other typographical nitpickings, as a basic  text editor or web form doesn't convert typewriter quote marks into proper ones. Similarly I made sure to include every variety of dash (h = hyphen, m = em dash, - = minus sign, n = en dash, f = figure dash). (Some of these I only discovered after deciding to make this layout XD)  I also threw in a Greek layer with even more symbols because why not. (I knew I'd be typing things like pi and lambda at least, lol).

The symbol arrangement is biased towards C++ / Java, with curly braces on the home row and <> treated as a form of brackets.

The whole thing is also designed with one-hand use in mind (right-handed mouse), as I tend to do a lot of copy-paste operations with one hand on the mouse. Whitespace and backspace are kept on the left hand as much as possible to allow for comfy copypasta arrangement. This also accommodates gaming with a mouse, which sometimes requires numerical input (at least in the games I play), so the numpad is also accessible with the left hand only. For a left-hander, I would recommend mirroring the layout completely.

That brings me to the command layer, which groups ctrl+letter combinations onto the left hand. "Whittles-Dvorak" pays no heed to keyboard shortcuts, so I needed a way to hit "ctrl+c" "ctrl+v" etc. with my left hand only.

It seems that you can pretty easily program macros like that into the firmware, so that's why I decided to put in all that unicode. I can make it send OS-sensitive alt codes to get those symbols (there's an OS switcher on the thumb of the symbol layer). That logic will all be handled in firmware code, so no need for autohotkey.

Finally, I decided that layer switchers will behave kind of like the "numlock" button (layer on / off) as well as a "shift" button (hold and press other keys). If you hold and press a key, it will revert to layer 0 when you release. If you just press it without any other key in combination, it will "lock" the layer until you hit that key again (and it always reverts to layer 0).

So basically, I'm crazy XD But if I'm gonna drop $450 on a physical keyboard I figured I might as well spend some quality time designing the soft layout to fit my tastes.


Code: [Select]
/* ************************ */
/* Layer 0: Whittles-Dvorak */ 
/* ************************ */
/*  _________________________________________                     _________________________________________  */
/* |      |      |      |      |      |      |                   |      |      |      |      |      |  hm  | */
/* | ESC  |  ;:  |  ,&  |  .@  |  P   |  Y   |                   |  F   |  G   |  L   |  R   |  C   |  -—  | */
/* |______|______|______|______|______|______|                   |______|______|______|______|______|______| */
/* |      |      |      |      |      |      |                   |      |      |      |      |      |      | */
/* | TAB  |  O   |  A   |  E   |  I   |  U   |                   |  D   |  H   |  T   |  N   |  S   |  /\  | */
/* |______|______|______|______|______|______|                   |______|______|______|______|______|______| */
/* |      |      |      |      |      |      |                   |      |      |      |      |      |      | */
/* | LCTL |  '"  |  Q   |  J   |  K   |  X   |                   |  B   |  M   |  W   |  V   |  Z   | RALT | */
/* |______|______|______|______|______|______|_                 _|______|______|______|______|______|______| */
/*                               |      |      |               |      |      |                               */
/*                               | SHFT | SPC  |               | ENTR | SHFT |                               */
/*                               |      |      |               |      |      |                               */
/*                               |______|______|_             _|______|______|                               */
/*                                 |      |      |           |      |      |                                 */
/*                                 | BSPC | CMDS |           | SYMB | DEL  |                                 */
/*                                 |______|______|_         _|______|______|                                 */
/*                                   | NUM/ |      |       |      |      |                                   */
/*                                   | DPAD | LALT |       | RCTL | SUPER|                                   */
/*                                   |______|______|       |______|______|                                   */
/* ******************* */                                                           
/* Layer 1: Symbols    */                         
/* ******************* */           
/*  _________________________________________                     _________________________________________  */
/* |      |      |      |      |      |      |                   |      |      |      |      |      |  -n  | */
/* |  ´`  |  …·  |  ?¿  |  !¡  |  |‖  |  §¶  |                   |  †‡  |  ~≈  |  #№  |  ^√  |  +±  |  −–  | */
/* |______|______|______|______|______|______|                   |______|______|______|______|______|______| */
/* |   f  |      |      |      |      |      |                   |      |      |      |      |      |  f   | */
/* |  _‒  |  =≠  |  <≤  |  {“  |  (‘  |  [«  |                   |  ]»  |  )’  |  }”  |  >≥  |  *×  |  ⁄÷  | */
/* |______|______|______|______|______|______|                   |______|______|______|______|______|______| */
/* |      |  a   |      |      |      |      |                   |      |      |      |      |      |      | */
/* |  ∨∧  |  ’✓  |  °′  |  ″‴  |  ©®  |  ™℗  |                   |  ∞∝  |  $¢  |  £€  |  ¥¤  |  Ƀ₹  |  ₩₽  | */
/* |______|______|______|______|______|______|_                 _|______|______|______|______|______|______| */
/*                               |      |      |               |      |      |                               */
/*                               | SHFT | SPC  |               | ENTR | SHFT |                               */
/*                               |      |      |               |      |      |                               */
/*                               |______|______|_             _|______|______|                               */
/*                                 |      |      |           |      |      |                                 */
/*                                 | BSPC | LOGIC|           | SYMB |  DEL |                                 */
/*                                 |______|______|_         _|______|______|                                 */
/*                                   | NUM/ |      |       |      | WIN/ |                                   */
/*                                   | DPAD | LALT |       | RCTL | UNIX |                                   */
/*                                   |______|______|       |______|______|                                   */

/* *************************** */
/* Layer 2: Numbers / D-pad    */
/* *************************** */
/*  _________________________________________                     _________________________________________  */
/* |      |      |      |      |      |      |                   |      |      |  ∧   |      |      |      | */
/* |  ^ⁿ  |  *∫  |  1¹  |  2²  |  3³  |  +⁺  |                   |PGUP  | HOME |  |   | END  |PRNSCR|PAUSE | */
/* |______|______|______|______|______|______|                   |______|______|______|______|______|______| */
/* |      |      |      |      |      |      |                   |      |      |  |   |      |      |      | */
/* | TAB  |  0⁰  |  4⁴  |  5⁵  |  6⁶  |  .⁼  |                   | PGDN |  <—  |  ∨   |  —>  |SYSRQ |BREAK | */
/* |______|______|______|______|______|______|                   |______|______|______|______|______|______| */
/* |      |      |      |      |      |      |                   |      |      |      |      |      |      | */
/* | LCTL |  /   |  7⁷  |  8⁸  |  9⁹  |  -⁻  |                   | SLEEP|      |INSERT| MENU |SCRLCK| RALT | */
/* |______|______|______|______|______|______|_                 _|______|______|______|______|______|______| */
/*                               |      |      |               |      |      |                               */
/*                               | SHFT | SPC  |               | ENTR | SHFT |                               */
/*                               |      |      |               |      |      |                               */
/*                               |______|______|_             _|______|______|                               */
/*                                 |      |      |           |      |      |                                 */
/*                                 | BSPC | CMDS |           | SYMB | DEL  |                                 */
/*                                 |______|______|_         _|______|______|                                 */
/*                                   | NUM/ |      |       |      |      |                                   */
/*                                   | DPAD | LALT |       | RCTL | SUPER|                                   */
/*                                   |______|______|       |______|______|                                   */
/* ***************** */
/* Layer 3: Commands */
/* ***************** */
/*  _________________________________________                     _________________________________________  */
/* |      |      |      |      |      |      |                   |      |      |      |      |      |      | */
/* | CAPS |  ^A  |  ^S  |  ^X  |  ^T  |  ^H  |                   | VOLUP|  F1  |  F2  |  F3  |  F4  | FFWD | */
/* |______|______|______|______|______|______|                   |______|______|______|______|______|______| */
/* |      |      |      |      |      |      |                   |      |      |      |      |      |      | */
/* | SHFT |  ^Z  |  ^Y  |  ^C  |  ^V  |  ^F  |                   | MUTE |  F5  |  F6  |  F7  |  F8  |PLAYPS| */
/* |______|______|______|______|______|______|                   |______|______|______|______|______|______| */
/* |      |      |      |      |      |      |                   |      |      |      |      |      |      | */
/* | ENTR |  ^B  |  ^I  |  ^U  |  ^L  |  ^P  |                   | VOLDN|  F9  |  F10 |  F11 |  F12 | RWND | */
/* |______|______|______|______|______|______|_                 _|______|______|______|______|______|______| */
/*                               |      |      |               |      |      |                               */
/*                               | SHFT | SPC  |               | ENTR | SHFT |                               */
/*                               |      |      |               |      |      |                               */
/*                               |______|______|_             _|______|______|                               */
/*                                 |      |      |           |      |      |                                 */
/*                                 | BSPC | CMDS |           | LOGIC|  DEL |                                 */
/*                                 |______|______|_         _|______|______|                                 */
/*                                   | NUM/ |      |       |      |      |                                   */
/*                                   | DPAD | LALT |       | RCTL | SUPER|                                   */
/*                                   |______|______|       |______|______|                                   */
/* *************************** */
/* Layer 4: Logic/Greek        */
/* *************************** */
/*  _________________________________________                     _________________________________________  */
/* |      |      |      |      |      |      |                   |      |      |      |      |      |      | */
/* |  ≡∀  |  ⊆⟨  |  ⊇⟩  |  ¬⊕  |  πΠ  |  ∩∪  |                   |  φΦ  |  γΓ  |  λΛ  |  ρΡ  |  ξΞ  |  ∴∵  | */
/* |______|______|______|______|______|______|                   |______|______|______|______|______|______| */
/* |      |      |      |      |      |      |                   |      |      |      |      |      |      | */
/* |  ⇒→  |  οΟ  |  αΑ  |  εΕ  |  ιΙ  |  υΥ  |                   |  δΔ  |  ηΗ  |  τΤ  |  νΝ  |  σΣ  |  ς∅  | */
/* |______|______|______|______|______|______|                   |______|______|______|______|______|______| */
/* |      |      |      |      |      |      |                   |      |      |      |      |      |      | */
/* |  ⇔↔  |  ≪≦  |  ≫≧  |  θΘ  |  κΚ  |  χΧ  |                   |  βΒ  |  μΜ  |  ωΩ  |  ψΨ  |  ζΖ  |  ⊤⊥  | */
/* |______|______|______|______|______|______|_                 _|______|______|______|______|______|______| */
/*                               |      |      |               |      |      |                               */
/*                               | SHFT | SPC  |               | ENTR | SHFT |                               */
/*                               |      |      |               |      |      |                               */
/*                               |______|______|_             _|______|______|                               */
/*                                 |      |      |           |      |      |                                 */
/*                                 | BSPC | LOGIC|           | LOGIC| DEL  |                                 */
/*                                 |______|______|_         _|______|______|                                 */
/*                                   | NUM/ |      |       |      |      |                                   */
/*                                   | DPAD |  ≔≅  |       |  ⊻∃  |  ⊢⊨  |                                   */
/*                                   |______|______|       |______|______|                                   */

Offline jeffgran

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 126
  • Location: Denver
Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #79 on: Wed, 18 May 2016, 00:07:29 »
Cool man. Don't worry, we're all a little crazy here so you're in good company. :) 

Have you worked with custom firmware before? Do you know what you're going to use to make it? What OS are you primarily on? I'm not sure that all the things you've got in there are possible (not 100% sure they're not possible either though). I used TMK for mine, and I did run into some limitations -- one major one is that you can only have (IIRC) 32 "custom actions" meaning things that are not normal keycodes -- combinations, layer toggles, etc. So I had to be careful and only put in the most important ones. Do you know how to send unicode symbols directly from the keyboard? I haven't tried it, but in my experience it seems that usually comes at the OS layer not at the keyboard hardware/firmware layer...

Anyway, stuff to think about. I'm sure you'll revise as you try it out. I definitely did. I changed around what all the thumb buttons were doing several times before I found a setup that "felt right" for me.

I'm still trying to find the time to make a better wiring diagram. I may just take the picture I took and overlay it with markers or something.

Offline WhittlesJr

  • Posts: 7
Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #80 on: Wed, 18 May 2016, 04:55:52 »
I was planning on using the TMK firmware the same way you did. I did notice the 32-custom-action limitation, so I've been noodling on a way to do what I want without every single weird character being a different custom action. I'll let you know if it works out! Otherwise, I know I can get all the regular keyboard symbols in there in the spots I want and with the layer switching behavior I want, so at a minimum I'll at least have a comfy layout of the essentials.

I was planning on sending alt codes via macros to get all the silly Unicode stuff. (like "alt + 0191" for ¿ on Windows). Each OS does it differently so that's why I included an "OS switcher" key that will keep track of what OS I want to send codes for. (As simple as adding an enum variable that flips each time you press it.)

And a photo or two with labels would be perfect!

EDIT: Ah, I think I found a way. The keymap_call_function user-defined function action gets a key record of what key was pressed and how. I could basically just determine which alt code should be sent based on the key, and that would pretty much reduce each layer to a single custom action.

I'll try, anyway XP
« Last Edit: Wed, 18 May 2016, 05:09:49 by WhittlesJr »

Offline algernon

  • Posts: 311
  • A tiny mouse, a hacker.
    • Diaries of a Madman
Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #81 on: Wed, 18 May 2016, 05:08:14 »
Do you have a video that shows how you type on the keyboard, by any chance?

Offline TD22057

  • Posts: 177
  • Location: Southern California
Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #82 on: Wed, 18 May 2016, 19:10:09 »
I was planning on using the TMK firmware the same way you did. I did notice the 32-custom-action limitation, so I've been noodling on a way to do what I want without every single weird character being a different custom action. I'll let you know if it works out! Otherwise, I know I can get all the regular keyboard symbols in there in the spots I want and with the layer switching behavior I want, so at a minimum I'll at least have a comfy layout of the essentials.

I was planning on sending alt codes via macros to get all the silly Unicode stuff. (like "alt + 0191" for ¿ on Windows). Each OS does it differently so that's why I included an "OS switcher" key that will keep track of what OS I want to send codes for. (As simple as adding an enum variable that flips each time you press it.)

And a photo or two with labels would be perfect!

EDIT: Ah, I think I found a way. The keymap_call_function user-defined function action gets a key record of what key was pressed and how. I could basically just determine which alt code should be sent based on the key, and that would pretty much reduce each layer to a single custom action.

I'll try, anyway XP

Check the keyboard/alps64/ example.  It uses actionmap instead of keymap so it doesn't have any limitations.  Every key can be a custom function if you want.  Uses more memory (16 bits/key vs 8 bits/key) but eliminates the 32 function limit completely.

Offline jeffgran

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 126
  • Location: Denver
Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #83 on: Thu, 19 May 2016, 01:17:25 »
@WhittlesJr:

Here's a link to some schematics I made tonight that should hopefully help figure out how to connect the wiring: http://imgur.com/a/QVU3J . I'm going to add to the first post too.

Also, I don't know if I posted this before but here is a link to another very helpful post that I was following when I did this -- he has a good technique for soldering on the diodes without needing extra wire (you just have to make sure that, electrically speaking, each diode is between two switches (or between a switch and the teensy)): https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/brownfox-step-by-step-t6050.html


@algernon:

I don't but I should! There is one video I took but it doesn't really show real typing... it was to show the difference when I was half-way through putting the "jailhouse blues" on it:


I do want to record myself using emacs on this thing for posterity. :) I'll see if I can get that done.
« Last Edit: Thu, 19 May 2016, 01:23:17 by jeffgran »

Offline WhittlesJr

  • Posts: 7
Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #84 on: Thu, 02 June 2016, 16:22:19 »
Just to give you the proud tingly feels, and to prove that there is indeed another ManuForm in the world:



I wanted to feel what it would be like so I stuck on the key switches and caps temporarily.... The physical layout feels amaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing. My hands just fall right into place on the home row, no bending or contorting of fingers or wrists.

An actual work of art. Really good job, I've giggled just thinking about it. I've got serious, real respect for your work.

So I still have to:
- Receive the controller housing part from Shapeways (they left it out of the first shipment, but I got that sorted and it's on its way)
- Finalize my soft layout. I'm using the carpalx program to optimize a letter layout for the ManuForm. I've got 7-8 processes iterating constantly so  I'll let them run for a few more days before declaring it a final solution.
- Finish my tmkfirmware and figure out how large the compiled file is
- Based off of the size of the firmware file, order either a teensy 2.0 or a 3.2 ( or a ++2.0? And only if I need the extra space from using the action map instead of a key map. I haven't compiled it yet so I'm not sure.)
- Paint the thing (do you have any tips there? Like how to prep it for painting? Should I give it a bath in some soapy water first? I've had some trouble finding much information on this kind of plastic)
- Solder and assemble

So much left to do. I've spent a silly amount of time figuring out the soft layout, having finally discovered carpalx yesterday. I don't mind taking time to get it perfect, though. If you're interested, I'll share the results of my carpalx tests when I decide it's done.
« Last Edit: Thu, 02 June 2016, 16:23:52 by WhittlesJr »

Offline jeffgran

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 126
  • Location: Denver
Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #85 on: Sat, 04 June 2016, 13:26:10 »
Awesome!

That's funny that Shapeways forgot the top piece -- they forgot the bottom base piece when I ordered mine too. But again, they corrected the problem with no charge, so at least they are nice about it. I guess the fact that there are three distinct pieces all in one print throws off their process somehow.

Re: painting -- the spraypaint I used worked fine, and to date hasn't shown any scratches or peeling or anything -- seems to have set in pretty well. I did not treat the plastic an any way beforehand... well, actually I think I sanded the bottom of the base with some steel wool just to smooth it out a bit, because I put some little rubber stick-on "feet" on the bottom and I thought it would stick better if it was a little smoother. But I just sprayed two light coats -- stay back with the can at least a foot if not more and let the paint just sorta "fall" on there in a light spray, let it be thin and maybe spotty on the first coat, let it dry for whatever the can says, and then do it again until it looks like it's well covered.

Re: soft layout -- I haven't gone as deep as you have. But my for optimizing it was to install a keylogger on myself and then take the output of my normal daily usage and analyze that somehow to figure out what the most common keys are and the most common key sequences are, and then try to optimize the soft layout for that. Because tools like carpalx (correct me if I'm wrong) make assumptions based on the english language about what is the most common key sequences (digraphs/trigraphs/etc), but as programmers we are typing things that aren't english, and especially my symbol layer was what I was wondering about optimizing. But I just decided to stick with qwerty and my "logic-based" symbol layout instead of trying to optimize... for now. All that said, I would be interested in your results just from an academic standpoint :)

Re: firmware -- not 100% sure but I think I remember that when I flashed the TMK firmware onto my teensy 2.0, it only said it was taking like 43% of the memory or something, so I doubt you'll run into space issues.

Excited to see your progress. Keep me/us up-to-date.

Offline lkong

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #86 on: Mon, 29 August 2016, 16:48:55 »
Print it

Bath

Clean

Primer

Paint

Thanks for sharing the design.
Got mine printed today.
« Last Edit: Tue, 30 August 2016, 23:53:56 by lkong »

Offline jeffgran

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #87 on: Tue, 30 August 2016, 19:22:06 »
Awesome! Thanks for sharing your pics. Would love to see the finished board too! :)

Offline lkong

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #88 on: Tue, 30 August 2016, 23:59:28 »
Awesome! Thanks for sharing your pics. Would love to see the finished board too! :)
It takes a Fotus printer about 19 hours to print, about the same amount of time to bath off the support materials.
There might be some issues with how Fotus printed this.
All the M3 holes printed incorrectly into something like M5.
On the far side of the top piece there're two places that have thin walls.
I'll look into that to see if it is print specific.


Offline lkong

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #89 on: Mon, 26 September 2016, 17:56:02 »
Hey Jeff
I'm struggling with the wiring and firmware. It would be great if you could shed some light on this.
1 I've wired all the diodes in parallel.
2 All the diodes are in correct direction
3 Cols and rows are connected to Teensy with ribbon cable so my pin configuration is different from yours
4 right hand side works but crazy ghosting on the left.
I'm also very confused about the keymap_common.h you've shared on github.
According to the matrix.c and the wiring, all the "cols" are rows in the firmware.
E.g. button "q a z" is defined as a row in matrix.c also wired with diodes in parallel, but it's a column in keymap_common.h (K01,K12,K22).
Is that why the keyboard is acting funky?
Thanks

Offline jeffgran

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #90 on: Mon, 26 September 2016, 21:27:21 »
Yeah, if your pins are different, you will have to adjust the matrix.c and the keymap_common.h, I'm pretty sure.

The keymap_common.h just defines a macro that makes it easier to create the real keymap, by changing the "shape" of the keys. The part at the bottom represents the actual rows and columns in your wiring matrix, and the part at the top is how you want it to "appear" in your personal keymap files. So, if your matix is different (sounds like only different on the left hand), you'll have to change the top-left part of the matrix section to match your matrix.

For example, if your row is my column, and vice versa, you'd have to "flip and rotate" the top-left part.

However, if you are not just getting the wrong keys, but actual ghosting, you may have a different problem. I'm not an expert, but that might mean that there is a wiring problem that can't be fixed with software. Or you might have to edit matrix.c and make sure it matches your rows/columns.

When I set mine up, I followed this tutorial (adjusted for my particular setup, of course):

Hardware part:
https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/brownfox-step-by-step-t6050.html

Software part:
https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/how-to-build-your-very-own-keyboard-firmware-t7177.html

Maybe that will help you figure out what is wrong.

(PS, I had the same problem when I first put it together, even when I had the wiring right, it was tough to figure out the exact right configuration for the software, but persevere! You're almost there and it will be worth it! :) )

Offline lkong

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #91 on: Mon, 26 September 2016, 23:04:52 »
Yeah, if your pins are different, you will have to adjust the matrix.c and the keymap_common.h, I'm pretty sure.

The keymap_common.h just defines a macro that makes it easier to create the real keymap, by changing the "shape" of the keys. The part at the bottom represents the actual rows and columns in your wiring matrix, and the part at the top is how you want it to "appear" in your personal keymap files. So, if your matix is different (sounds like only different on the left hand), you'll have to change the top-left part of the matrix section to match your matrix.

For example, if your row is my column, and vice versa, you'd have to "flip and rotate" the top-left part.

However, if you are not just getting the wrong keys, but actual ghosting, you may have a different problem. I'm not an expert, but that might mean that there is a wiring problem that can't be fixed with software. Or you might have to edit matrix.c and make sure it matches your rows/columns.

When I set mine up, I followed this tutorial (adjusted for my particular setup, of course):

Hardware part:
https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/brownfox-step-by-step-t6050.html

Software part:
https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/how-to-build-your-very-own-keyboard-firmware-t7177.html

Maybe that will help you figure out what is wrong.

(PS, I had the same problem when I first put it together, even when I had the wiring right, it was tough to figure out the exact right configuration for the software, but persevere! You're almost there and it will be worth it! :) )


Mystery solved, partially.
I used D6 pin the LED pin for a column that I shouldn't.
On the left side the problem remains, seems that the row 1 and 2 are pressed together all the time.
E.g. pressing f yields f and v.
« Last Edit: Tue, 27 September 2016, 01:26:13 by lkong »

Offline jeffgran

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #92 on: Tue, 27 September 2016, 20:08:13 »
Sounds like it could be a short. Is there any possibility that any of the wires from row 1 and 2 are touching each other anywhere? Maybe at the solder point on the teensy controller? If the solder bleeds over and touches the neighboring contact, that could cause that sort of thing.

Offline lkong

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #93 on: Tue, 27 September 2016, 22:33:17 »
Sounds like it could be a short. Is there any possibility that any of the wires from row 1 and 2 are touching each other anywhere? Maybe at the solder point on the teensy controller? If the solder bleeds over and touches the neighboring contact, that could cause that sort of thing.
This is really strange.
The keyboard works perfect on one computer (Surface Book). And it is ghosting on the other one (Win10 desktop).
Ive compiled and flashed it with newest tmk core.

Offline jeffgran

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #94 on: Tue, 27 September 2016, 23:05:52 »
I agree... that is very strange. Maybe try posting (or searching) in the tmk thread and see if hasu or anybody has run into that before? Seems like maybe a Windows issue? (We programmers love to blame Microsoft products for our problems ;) )

Offline TomBodet

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #95 on: Wed, 28 September 2016, 07:27:12 »
Sounds like it could be a short. Is there any possibility that any of the wires from row 1 and 2 are touching each other anywhere? Maybe at the solder point on the teensy controller? If the solder bleeds over and touches the neighboring contact, that could cause that sort of thing.
This is really strange.
The keyboard works perfect on one computer (Surface Book). And it is ghosting on the other one (Win10 desktop).
Ive compiled and flashed it with newest tmk core.

Rule out (or confirm) the OS by trying any random linux live-CD on the desktop?

Offline lkong

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #96 on: Wed, 28 September 2016, 11:31:13 »
Sounds like it could be a short. Is there any possibility that any of the wires from row 1 and 2 are touching each other anywhere? Maybe at the solder point on the teensy controller? If the solder bleeds over and touches the neighboring contact, that could cause that sort of thing.
This is really strange.
The keyboard works perfect on one computer (Surface Book). And it is ghosting on the other one (Win10 desktop).
Ive compiled and flashed it with newest tmk core.

Rule out (or confirm) the OS by trying any random linux live-CD on the desktop?
I think it's OS independent.
Works on Surface Book, also inside a linux VM:


But not the other machine

Offline alkozu

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #97 on: Thu, 29 September 2016, 14:33:33 »
The keyboard looks amazing. I have access to some 3d printer and was thinking about giving it a try and finally learning how to use a 3d printer. If I wanted to print it how should I proceed? What is the best material? Thanks!

Offline lkong

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #98 on: Thu, 29 September 2016, 21:54:52 »
Bug fixed. I double booked B2 pin.
Build log here: http://imgur.com/a/Qr8qj

Offline Phenix

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Re: ManuForm: custom contoured 50% ergo board
« Reply #99 on: Fri, 30 September 2016, 08:17:28 »
amazing work.
Would love to buy one assembled to try out the Layout
Winter is coming.