[GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F

[macclack]

I did, in fact, ask for a refund.  I was told that it's a made-to-order product, so no refunds.

However, I'm quite sure that under US law the seller does have to actually deliver at some point or give money back.  I am being patient, for now.  I haven't contacted any lawyer yet.  But Ellipse needs to be aware that this can't go on indefinitely.

Welcome to crowed funding. With the precidents kickstarter and indie gogo have put forth legally I doubt anyone would have luck.

That said meh we get status updates regularly and it looks good to me. I'll wait patiently.

After participating in a number of group buys, I've definitely learned patience. I'm a firm believer that perfection can't be rushed, and I think this project is striving for perfection. I'm OK waiting, and I think Ellipse has really good about keeping us updated on this seemingly very complicated process, and I don't get the sense that he's dragging his feet.

In the end, I'd be much more disappointed if corners were cut in order to save time, owning a product that likely provides decades of service. For me, patience in the short-term has a big long-term payoff.

[Ellipse]

My apologies to everyone waiting a long time for these keyboards.  From the beginning I have wanted to make something that lives up to the original Model F keyboard, not something that cut corners to save production time. 

Producing these parts to IBM's tolerances has been a significant challenge for the factories.  There have been many iterations of prototypes that I've rejected as out of spec.  I had to cancel the agreements with two factories (key molds and springs) as they could not produce parts to spec and the new key mold factory had to start over. 

Fortunately the factories have finally succeeded on almost all parts.  Many of the parts have finished production already and are waiting for assembly - die cast cases, flippers, barrels, controller PCB's, capacitive PCBs.  The top and bottom inner assembly are in production and one key mold is good while the other needs adjustment.  Right now we just need the springs, keys, and dye sublimation to finish and then the keyboards can be assembled and ship.

If the keys prove to be a long bottleneck I will offer the option for those who have ordered to go with Unicomp keys to ship these keyboards out without further delay, for those who do not want the keys from new molds. 

This month I had the honor to speak with one of the supervisory engineers of the early 1980s Model F keyboard production!  He helpfully offered detailed specifications and production notes on the springs and dye sublimation process - two greatly needed parts of the project.  He even remembered the exact PBT material IBM used for the keys!  IBM seems to have done the dye sublimation at significant economies of scale with huge machines; I have to see if smaller-scale machines produce the same results or if I have to find a factory to take care of this.  Quality control (legend alignment especially) will be the most important part of dye sublimation.

[ljosa]

Many of the parts have finished production already and are waiting for assembly - die cast cases, flippers, barrels, controller PCB's, capacitive PCBs.  The top and bottom inner assembly are in production and one key mold is good while the other needs adjustment.  Right now we just need the springs, keys, and dye sublimation to finish and then the keyboards can be assembled and ship.

Thanks for the update, Ellipse! How are the compact cases coming along?

[nsmechkb]

If the keys prove to be a long bottleneck I will offer the option for those who have ordered to go with Unicomp keys to ship these keyboards out without further delay, for those who do not want the keys from new molds.

This is a great idea.

[darkcruix]

Looks like the first parts are already on ebay ...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-IBM-Model-F-reproduction-keyboards-barrel-Kishsaver-clicky-Model-M/323187364348?hash=item4b3f77d1fc:g:kPUAAOSwD8BZbpQx

[Mr_BeastQuake]

Many of the parts have finished production already and are waiting for assembly - die cast cases, flippers, barrels, controller PCB's, capacitive PCBs.  The top and bottom inner assembly are in production and one key mold is good while the other needs adjustment.  Right now we just need the springs, keys, and dye sublimation to finish and then the keyboards can be assembled and ship.

Thanks for the update, Ellipse! How are the compact cases coming along?

Update with pics couple pages back

[Ellipse]

The next sample springs should be here the first or second week of May.  They will incorporate what I learned about the springs from the IBM Model F supervisory engineer.

[vewy_nice]

Did you give any thought to making the "quiet springs" available separately?

Just curious

Glad to hear work is still ongoing, though.

Thanks for the update!

[Ellipse]

vewy_nice everyone will be getting the same XT quality springs.  The tooling and logistical time and cost for custom springs would be higher.

[PancakeMSTR]

vewy_nice everyone will be getting the same XT quality springs.  The tooling and logistical time and cost for custom springs would be higher.

lol what? Isn't that literally what you're doing?

[Atredl]

vewy_nice everyone will be getting the same XT quality springs.  The tooling and logistical time and cost for custom springs would be higher.

lol what? Isn't that literally what you're doing?

There would be more cost and complexity if there was more than one sku of spring.

[vewy_nice]

I mean, I guess what you're saying makes sense...

But I don't see how there'd be more cost associated with saying:

Hey: Those springs I rejected, yeah those ones, some people want those, could I order a bunch?

I'd expect the springs coming IN the board will be to the strict spec you're working on, but as an add-on kit, like many of the extra keysets you've worked on?

I'm not going to beg, I'll let you do your own thing

[emenelopee]

Is this the final deadline, or do you need to collect more funds to continue and complete?

[PancakeMSTR]

vewy_nice everyone will be getting the same XT quality springs.  The tooling and logistical time and cost for custom springs would be higher.

lol what? Isn't that literally what you're doing?

There would be more cost and complexity if there was more than one sku of spring.

What I mean is like months, literal months, have been spent making what are effectively custom springs. I'm not even talking about different spring types, but more how can Ellipse be worried about "tooling and logistics" when he literally got a material analysis done to get whatever springs he's going to use made?

And yeah like, just order a bunch of the quieter ones.

[Ramiel]

Is this the final deadline, or do you need to collect more funds to continue and complete?

Show Image

Final? I guess not.

I thought that was the final deadline when I joined the GB. Then I realize the deadline changes every month.

[PancakeMSTR]

Is this the final deadline, or do you need to collect more funds to continue and complete?

Show Image

Don't worry about it, the counter resets at the end of the month, every month.

[emenelopee]

Is this the final deadline, or do you need to collect more funds to continue and complete?

Show Image

Don't worry about it, the counter resets at the end of the month, every month.

I'm not worried about it - I'm irritated and borderline concerned by it. The endless nth degree of investigation and orders still being taken makes it look like a good chunk of the $500k has been blown through and more orders are needed to keep this ball rolling. There's a word beginning with "p" that describes a scheme where new investors are needed to pay off returns for existing investors until collapse in a closed system. I hope this is not that.

I'd like some reassurance from Ellipse that enough of the funds already received have been set aside for actual products already pledged, and that new orders are only to allow people to jump on the train. He can mess with the exact formulation of the materials all he wants, so long as it's not all that will come of this endeavour with nothing to show for it at the end other than spec sheets.

In any case, unless the deadline is fixed and immovable, it should be removed immediately, with a realistic timeline put in its place and very good reason and notification on why any deadline gets renewed. If there is no clear end, say there is no clear end and let people take that informed risk. As it stands this is uninformed risk, the worst kind of risk.

[PancakeMSTR]

Is this the final deadline, or do you need to collect more funds to continue and complete?

Show Image

Don't worry about it, the counter resets at the end of the month, every month.

I'm not worried about it - I'm irritated and borderline concerned by it. The endless nth degree of investigation and orders still being taken makes it look like a good chunk of the $500k has been blown through and more orders are needed to keep this ball rolling. There's a word beginning with "p" that describes a scheme where new investors are needed to pay off returns for existing investors until collapse in a closed system. I hope this is not that.

I'd like some reassurance from Ellipse that enough of the funds already received have been set aside for actual products already pledged, and that new orders are only to allow people to jump on the train. He can mess with the exact formulation of the materials all he wants, so long as it's not all that will come of this endeavour with nothing to show for it at the end other than spec sheets.

In any case, unless the deadline is fixed and immovable, it should be removed immediately, with a realistic timeline put in its place and very good reason and notification on why any deadline gets renewed. If there is no clear end, say there is no clear end and let people take that informed risk. As it stands this is uninformed risk, the worst kind of risk.

You're not the only one who feels that way.

[Meowsaur]

In any case, unless the deadline is fixed and immovable, it should be removed immediately, with a realistic timeline put in its place and very good reason and notification on why any deadline gets renewed. If there is no clear end, say there is no clear end and let people take that informed risk. As it stands this is uninformed risk, the worst kind of risk.

I agree with this.

Don't get me wrong; I'm excited as hell.
No doubt in my mind that ultimately, Ellipse is going to deliver.

However, the one thing that has bothered me is the moving deadline, as you mention. Back in early 2016 when I discovered the project, I was scrambling to get my earnings together. Foregoing other expenses under the guise that in ten days time, I'd lose out on the chance to get in on the project. Two years on, I could've saved up comfortably in retrospect. I'm not sure why the monthly deadlines are still being advertised.

I think that an "open" deadline would be more appropriate.
Once all the parts are up to standard, announce a fixed deadline.

[futurecrime]

In any case, unless the deadline is fixed and immovable, it should be removed immediately, with a realistic timeline put in its place and very good reason and notification on why any deadline gets renewed. If there is no clear end, say there is no clear end and let people take that informed risk. As it stands this is uninformed risk, the worst kind of risk.

I agree with this.

Don't get me wrong; I'm excited as hell.
No doubt in my mind that ultimately, Ellipse is going to deliver.

However, the one thing that has bothered me is the moving deadline, as you mention. Back in early 2016 when I discovered the project, I was scrambling to get my earnings together. Foregoing other expenses under the guise that in ten days time, I'd lose out on the chance to get in on the project. Two years on, I could've saved up comfortably in retrospect. I'm not sure why the monthly deadlines are still being advertised.

I think that an "open" deadline would be more appropriate.
Once all the parts are up to standard, announce a fixed deadline.

This. So much this.

[nathanrosspowell]

In any case, unless the deadline is fixed and immovable, it should be removed immediately, with a realistic timeline put in its place and very good reason and notification on why any deadline gets renewed. If there is no clear end, say there is no clear end and let people take that informed risk. As it stands this is uninformed risk, the worst kind of risk.

I agree with this.

Don't get me wrong; I'm excited as hell.
No doubt in my mind that ultimately, Ellipse is going to deliver.

However, the one thing that has bothered me is the moving deadline, as you mention. Back in early 2016 when I discovered the project, I was scrambling to get my earnings together. Foregoing other expenses under the guise that in ten days time, I'd lose out on the chance to get in on the project. Two years on, I could've saved up comfortably in retrospect. I'm not sure why the monthly deadlines are still being advertised.

I think that an "open" deadline would be more appropriate.
Once all the parts are up to standard, announce a fixed deadline.

This. So much this.

100%. I did the same rush to get into this buy two years ago

The moving deadlines prey on people with the fear of missing out.

[nguyenhimself]

Not gonna lie, since I only got aware of this project last month, I almost just now rushed out to order one when the poster above implied April 30th is the final deadline.

Will probably get one eventually, but yeah, at this point, no rush.

[Techno Trousers]

Ellipse has been very clear from the beginning that there will be two rounds of manufacturing. This round is still called the "early bird" round. I don't understand where any fear of missing out could have come from, unless it was to get a single digits serial number or something.

[vewy_nice]

The "second round" isn't as widely advertised, and many people just finding the project might not know about it.

I certainly didn't until LONG after I had paid.

[romevi]

Not gonna lie, since I only got aware of this project last month, I almost just now rushed out to order one when the poster above implied April 30th is the final deadline.

Will probably get one eventually, but yeah, at this point, no rush.

What's up, mkawa?

[iamtootallforthis]

Not gonna lie, since I only got aware of this project last month, I almost just now rushed out to order one when the poster above implied April 30th is the final deadline.

Will probably get one eventually, but yeah, at this point, no rush.

What's up, mkawa?

Hahaha

[PancakeMSTR]

In any case, unless the deadline is fixed and immovable, it should be removed immediately, with a realistic timeline put in its place and very good reason and notification on why any deadline gets renewed. If there is no clear end, say there is no clear end and let people take that informed risk. As it stands this is uninformed risk, the worst kind of risk.

I agree with this.

Don't get me wrong; I'm excited as hell.
No doubt in my mind that ultimately, Ellipse is going to deliver.

However, the one thing that has bothered me is the moving deadline, as you mention. Back in early 2016 when I discovered the project, I was scrambling to get my earnings together. Foregoing other expenses under the guise that in ten days time, I'd lose out on the chance to get in on the project. Two years on, I could've saved up comfortably in retrospect. I'm not sure why the monthly deadlines are still being advertised.

I think that an "open" deadline would be more appropriate.
Once all the parts are up to standard, announce a fixed deadline.

This. So much this.

And everytime it has been mentioned, every single time, not a peep is heard from Ellipse.

Pretty sketchy IMO.

[Glod]

To those complaining still, the same people over and over. Do you understand what this group buy is for? Its a reproduction project; the goal is for it to feel like a brand new Model F felt like decades ago; its not just a "modern buckling spring" project--though the compact cases offered may bring in the wrong crowd that thinks that. Even the compact cases will have parts that mirror what the model F had; i think it still counts as a reproduction.

Do you understand why the Model F is praised and why it's reproduction important for this community?
Do you understand why Unicomp key caps are not desirable and why he put so much effort into the caps?
Do you understand why the springs are so important on a BUCKLING SPRING keyboard? even if this was a cheaper Model M reproduction the springs would still need to be perfect--a minor imperfection would make all the efforts on caps, cases, barrels, etc mean NOTHING. I am thrilled so much effort is being spent on them.

If you want a buckling spring keyboard with a usb port, unicomp has been selling them for years, I have a couple and they are passable, the Model M is still in production and ready to ship. You joined the wrong group buy and you were not mislead, you just didn't read into the project you bought into. Never has anyone been mislead on this and never has a time gone by without status.

[Kevadu]

Do you understand why the Model F is praised and why it's reproduction important for this community?
Do you understand why Unicomp key caps are not desirable and why he put so much effort into the caps?
Do you understand why the springs are so important on a BUCKLING SPRING keyboard? even if this was a cheaper Model M reproduction the springs would still need to be perfect--a minor imperfection would make all the efforts on caps, cases, barrels, etc mean NOTHING. I am thrilled so much effort is being spent on them.

Do you understand how any of this is related to the deceptive meaningless rolling deadline?  i.e., the thing people were actually complaining about.

Oh right, it isn't.

[nathanrosspowell]

Ellipse has been very clear from the beginning that there will be two rounds of manufacturing. This round is still called the "early bird" round. I don't understand where any fear of missing out could have come from, unless it was to get a single digits serial number or something.

I think you have a short memory lad. Early bird was to get your board delivered before the rest of the first round. Originally in April/May 2016....

Key dates:
Now through 2/29/2016:  Early bird round.  Ships in April/May.  No extra cost to you versus the regular round.
3/1/2016 through 6/30/2016:  Regular round - last chance!  Ships in August/September. 

Via: https://www.web.archive.org/web/20160412171546/https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79141.0

[Techno Trousers]

I think you have a short memory lad. Early bird was to get your board delivered before the rest of the first round. Originally in April/May 2016....

I understand people are frustrated because dates have slipped A LOT, but it's not going to do anyone any good to spread misinformation. From the first post of this exact thread you're complaining in:

STILL CAN BE ORDERED
* Everything.  I have ordered extra keyboards and parts for the early bird round, which will be ongoing while supplies last.  Then there will be a final round for about a month after the early bird keyboards are delivered.

I've been watching this project since the very beginning. I made a choice to wait and see reviews from actual customers of the early bird round before I decided whether to buy during the ordering period of the "regular"/second round. I have never once thought I might miss out on the chance to order.

[wowremy]

Hi I'm new and type with my pointer fingers and just like collecting keycaps and have yet to build my first custom. Why do i want a model F?

[vewy_nice]

I do the same.

Do you like sleek, heavy, substantial pieces of metal?

Do you like a unique key-feel?

Are you unusually attracted to the "vintage" beige aesthetic?

Do you want an input device that will outlive you?

If you answered yes to any of those, get a model F.

I have 2 original XT's, an AT, one F66 on order with an ultra-compact, and if there's ever that fabled "second round", I'll probably buy both models in the original style case.

[emenelopee]

Hi I'm new and type with my pointer fingers and just like collecting keycaps and have yet to build my first custom. Why do i want a model F?

In either case, I wouldn't rush into this [GB] - it looks like it's time sensitive one time only ending soon, but it's been running for a while with no end in sight. Watch the deadline auto-update +1mo. in the coming days.

[Techno Trousers]

Hi I'm new and type with my pointer fingers and just like collecting keycaps and have yet to build my first custom. Why do i want a model F?

In either case, I wouldn't rush into this [GB] - it looks like it's time sensitive one time only ending soon, but it's been running for a while with no end in sight. Watch the deadline auto-update +1mo. in the coming days.

It's not one time only. There will be a short second round that will run sometime after the first round keyboards are delivered. But after that Ellipse has said there will be no more manufacturing runs.

[emenelopee]

Is this the final deadline, or do you need to collect more funds to continue and complete?

Show Image

Hi I'm new and type with my pointer fingers and just like collecting keycaps and have yet to build my first custom. Why do i want a model F?

In either case, I wouldn't rush into this [GB] - it looks like it's time sensitive one time only ending soon, but it's been running for a while with no end in sight. Watch the deadline auto-update +1mo. in the coming days.

Ellipse, please cut this **** out - either have a real deadline or remove it entirely.



This point has come up many times and I haven't seen it addressed. We can handle uncertainty if done honestly, but your auto-moving deadline is downright misleading and I'm calling shenanigans.

[romevi]

This GB started the year I got serious about mechanical keyboards. I was hesitant then until I saw reviews, and I still am.

[Puddsy]

This GB started the year I got serious about mechanical keyboards. I was hesitant then until I saw reviews, and I still am.

i respect that

reviews are key to a good product

[Ellipse]

A mini update on keys, springs, and the timeline concerns:

Update on keys:  the factory tells me they have finished adjusting the key molds and the new key samples will be ready next week!  The factory has also prepared the molds to use the original PBT material IBM used on their Model F keyboards, the material that I learned from the IBM engineer (different PBT shinkage rate)!  They are still working on color matching the PBT to an original XT key set I mailed them last year. 

Update on springs:  Half the new spring samples have been completed! Hoping for the remaining 4 variants to be done by the end of this week or next week, and then they will all be mailed to me for evaluation.





Regarding the project timeline:  Fortunately the major production problems from last year were resolved by the factories and most parts are waiting in storage for assembly.  Hoping for springs and keys to finish up this month.  Assembly can start once the springs finish production.

The project's goal from the beginning is to produce new Model F keyboards to IBM's quality standards.  I have chosen to delay the tentative early bird and final round timelines rather than compromise on quality or aesthetic and material authenticity of parts to meet a deadline.

The timeline has been delayed significantly due to factory production quality control problems that have since been resolved save the keys and springs, detailed on the web site updates blog page.  I understand that some of you disagree with the philosophy and management of the project and setting of (in hindsight) too optimistic, changing deadlines.  You are right that for many projects, there should be a deadline and if there is one it should not change.

Yet it does not make sense to close this project's first round arbitrarily to stay true to a deadline if the factory is delayed in its goal to complete production and assembly (with all QC and other production issues worked out), nor does it make sense to eliminate dates and close the round when the factory is ready to ship, with little to no warning.  The timelines and deadlines are based on my and the factory's current estimations.  I will not remove deadlines or other timelines or imply there is no deadline, even though they have proven sooner than the factories' actual results and have been pushed forward.  Allowing extra orders does not impact the timeline for existing orders.   The project window could be moved again if the springs or spring assembly require more time.

A saying I’ve heard definitely applies here – on time, high quality, at a good cost – but you can only pick two of the three!  This project will continue to focus on the latter two:  build brand new Model F keyboards to IBM standards and not accept anything less from the factories.  The factories have now met these standards in all but the remaining two parts (springs and keys) and have been extremely patient and accommodating despite this project being one of their smallest and probably most time consuming.

As noted before, to reduce the possibility of additional delay, I am willing to send out those orders without keys and with blank keys (or even use Unicomp keys, for those requesting the option) in the event the keys become a significant and sole bottleneck to the project and some people want earlier delivery. 

We are getting there and I thank everyone for their support and patience as we move towards the final stage.

[xondat]

A saying I’ve heard definitely applies here – on time, high quality, at a good cost – but you can only pick two of the three!  This project will continue to focus on the latter two:  build brand new Model F keyboards to IBM standards and not accept anything less from the factories.

Ha, I haven't heard this before. Works nicely with a lot of projects on here. Of course it'd be nice to have all three one day

[Mr_BeastQuake]

Good.

[Puddsy]

A saying I’ve heard definitely applies here – on time, high quality, at a good cost – but you can only pick two of the three!  This project will continue to focus on the latter two:  build brand new Model F keyboards to IBM standards and not accept anything less from the factories.

Ha, I haven't heard this before. Works nicely with a lot of projects on here. Of course it'd be nice to have all three one day

agree

really good insight

[LightningXI]

A mini update on keys, springs, and the timeline concerns:

Update on keys:  the factory tells me they have finished adjusting the key molds and the new key samples will be ready next week!  The factory has also prepared the molds to use the original PBT material IBM used on their Model F keyboards, the material that I learned from the IBM engineer (different PBT shinkage rate)!  They are still working on color matching the PBT to an original XT key set I mailed them last year. 

Update on springs:  Half the new spring samples have been completed! Hoping for the remaining 4 variants to be done by the end of this week or next week, and then they will all be mailed to me for evaluation.

(Attachment Link)
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Regarding the project timeline:  Fortunately the major production problems from last year were resolved by the factories and most parts are waiting in storage for assembly.  Hoping for springs and keys to finish up this month.  Assembly can start once the springs finish production.

The project's goal from the beginning is to produce new Model F keyboards to IBM's quality standards.  I have chosen to delay the tentative early bird and final round timelines rather than compromise on quality or aesthetic and material authenticity of parts to meet a deadline.

The timeline has been delayed significantly due to factory production quality control problems that have since been resolved save the keys and springs, detailed on the web site updates blog page.  I understand that some of you disagree with the philosophy and management of the project and setting of (in hindsight) too optimistic, changing deadlines.  You are right that for many projects, there should be a deadline and if there is one it should not change.

Yet it does not make sense to close this project's first round arbitrarily to stay true to a deadline if the factory is delayed in its goal to complete production and assembly (with all QC and other production issues worked out), nor does it make sense to eliminate dates and close the round when the factory is ready to ship, with little to no warning.  The timelines and deadlines are based on my and the factory's current estimations.  I will not remove deadlines or other timelines or imply there is no deadline, even though they have proven sooner than the factories' actual results and have been pushed forward.  Allowing extra orders does not impact the timeline for existing orders.   The project window could be moved again if the springs or spring assembly require more time.

A saying I’ve heard definitely applies here – on time, high quality, at a good cost – but you can only pick two of the three!  This project will continue to focus on the latter two:  build brand new Model F keyboards to IBM standards and not accept anything less from the factories.  The factories have now met these standards in all but the remaining two parts (springs and keys) and have been extremely patient and accommodating despite this project being one of their smallest and probably most time consuming.

As noted before, to reduce the possibility of additional delay, I am willing to send out those orders without keys and with blank keys (or even use Unicomp keys, for those requesting the option) in the event the keys become a significant and sole bottleneck to the project and some people want earlier delivery. 

We are getting there and I thank everyone for their support and patience as we move towards the final stage.

Thank you for your insight. I cannot wait to try a high-quality, refined product onto which you've poured your valuable time, knowledge, and effort. Thanks for your diligence, Ellipse.

Sent from my mobile using Tapatalk

[emenelopee]

A saying I’ve heard definitely applies here – on time, high quality, at a good cost – but you can only pick two of the three!  This project will continue to focus on the latter two:  build brand new Model F keyboards to IBM standards and not accept anything less from the factories.

Ha, I haven't heard this before. Works nicely with a lot of projects on here. Of course it'd be nice to have all three one day

agree

really good insight

This is not a new paradigm. It's neat, but certainly not insight, and those of us who work in design have heard it many times. And there is a difference between "it's ready when it's ready", the third pillar of this design triangle to "it'll be ready next month, best get your order in, not wait, next month, best get your order in, no wait ...". It's pithy, but not at all my point. No-one, at least not me, is disputing the "it's ready when it's ready". Of course great results take time and resources. I'm talking about the communication and signalling of apparent urgency with what looks like a hard date and a button that says "please have your orders in by then!". Do you not see or hear anyone saying "I thought it was now or never, so I ordered on that assumption"? Urgency implies scarcity, and the natural proclivity of humans to fear missing out, rash decisions are made.

I'm certain you have little to no control over the delays, and I'm not saying you're not putting effort into getting all this done, but the way you present this faux scarcity is flying awfully close to bait and switch.

You know full well next month's deadline will be extended again - stop deceiving people into feeling they're this close to missing out unless they act now. It's a dirty trick. Continue what you're doing, and get the results you have promised, but I ask you, pretty please, take down that deadline unless you know it's a real deadline that you know you can honour.

[hansichen]

^ I second that. The time line just makes this project look like a scam.
He can write something like: "all parts produced except caps and springs, get your order in before boards are sold out."
That would also indicate that you should order now but it's not sketchy like the current dates.

[user 18]

I agree with several of the above posters. I would strongly prefer to see no deadline than an imaginary one. I fully understand the delays, and that it's taking you longer than anticipated to get all the pieces in place for an ideal reproduction. The 'deadline' has been moving this way for a long time now, and I believe that if it's not an accurate representation of when orders must be placed by, then it's not really serving the purpose of a deadline.

As someone who's followed this project from the start, I've seen the deadline change so many times that it's lost its meaning to me. I strongly dislike placing orders on arbitrary or uncertain deadlines, since I don't want to have my money tied up indefinitely during the design process. As we get apparently closer to the true deadline though, there are times when I worry about missing that deadline, since I never know when the real one will be.

Again, this is not a judgement on the amount of time the project has taken. I understand the scale of the undertaking, and the amount of time and effort that has had to go into it. I agree that it's been worth the time to ensure that the final product will be both affordable and high quality. I'm sure many others would agree as well.

I agree that it doesn't make sense to close the first round of orders early arbitrarily. What I object to (and what I believe others object to as well) is having a seemingly-arbitrary deadline which moves every month by a month -- and this has been going on more than a year now. I would strongly prefer, rather than having a continually-moving deadline, to just say that the first round of orders will remain open until the factory has met specifications on all components of the project, and then for a certain number of days after that. The sense I get from the way the deadline has been moving so far is that the project will be ready when it's ready, and at that time, you'll continue taking orders until the end of the month. If that's the case, just say that, and let us know when everything is actually ready.

[romevi]

Thinking about it from the perspective of buying into something with promised deadlines and no communication or knowledge of the process, I am glad you are very responsive in these threads, Ellipse.

I still am holding off on ordering one and will wait until the first, non-early-bird round, but the F77 has been on top of my list since the beginning.
I guess it's good that you keep pushing the deadlines rather than set the deadlines, have them come and go, and have people pissed off. From what I understand, people can request refunds at any time--unlike other GBs where the money is taken, problems arise, and then it's just more headache on the organizer when people want to fall off.
(I keep remembering that Notch ordered one and wonder if he has forgotten all about this!)

Are you handling all of this yourself, Ellipse? I haven't really kept up on this since...2015? Whatever was the first year this GB started.

I've had about three Model Ms before (a Unicomp, an SSK, and a Wheelwriter), and recently tried a Model F for the first time last month. Typing on it was way better than Model Ms--a different experience, almost. So after that I'm even more eager to get my own.

[Photoelectric]

Are you handling all of this yourself, Ellipse? I haven't really kept up on this since...2015? Whatever was the first year this GB started.

I've been wondering about this myself.  Hopefully there's a good plan for managing the actual packing and shipping part once the completed kits start arriving, as for one person + lots of complex varied orders, it's going to be a nightmare.  The kind of ordeal that has in the past many times caused people to go MIA for a while.

[PancakeMSTR]

I agree with most of the above, sketchy, baity timelines should be removed with something more genuine and informative. And stop pretending "choose 2 of the three pillars of design" is some unique new insight. That phrase is about as remarkable as white bread.

[Kavik]

Based on previous posts in this thread, I believe refunds are not possible because the keyboards are made to order (someone reported not being able to get a refund, and I remember Ellipse's discouraging someone in the thread from asking for one once).

I once commented that the shipping process would take a long time with all of these orders, probably adding at least a few months even after production is complete. Ellipse's response seemed to imply he would be handling it alone. Someone once asked if he had a backup plan in case he died, and he said he didn't (Odd question, I know).

My comments are not making or implying any judgments about the project or Ellipse. I'm just reporting what I remember reading so that others can know since the thread is rather long.