Lack of SA keycaps

[Encabulator]

So far I've only had Oem profile keycaps and I was loving the rounded look of SA keycaps but signature plastics is always sold out and I've only really seen DSA keycap group buys.  Is there anywhere that sells SA keycaps that are high quality and actually stocked? I wish I could go back in time and join a Jukebox group buy ;(

[Tally810]

So far I've only had Oem profile keycaps and I was loving the rounded look of SA keycaps but signature plastics is always sold out and I've only really seen DSA keycap group buys.  Is there anywhere that sells SA keycaps that are high quality and actually stocked? I wish I could go back in time and join a Jukebox group buy ;(

Your best bet is to look into the classifieds or reddit and find a used set.  There are so many SA group buys right now that they are backed up almost an entire year.  Also if you want to try SA on the cheap (since almost any resell set will run you 200 and up) is to try maxkey SA.  You can find them at keyclack.com and a few other places.

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

[Encabulator]

So far I've only had Oem profile keycaps and I was loving the rounded look of SA keycaps but signature plastics is always sold out and I've only really seen DSA keycap group buys.  Is there anywhere that sells SA keycaps that are high quality and actually stocked? I wish I could go back in time and join a Jukebox group buy ;(

Your best bet is to look into the classifieds or reddit and find a used set.  There are so many SA group buys right now that they are backed up almost an entire year.  Also if you want to try SA on the cheap (since almost any resell set will run you 200 and up) is to try maxkey SA.  You can find them at keyclack.com and a few other places.

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

I assume that the maxkey set is double shot abs?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tally810]

So far I've only had Oem profile keycaps and I was loving the rounded look of SA keycaps but signature plastics is always sold out and I've only really seen DSA keycap group buys.  Is there anywhere that sells SA keycaps that are high quality and actually stocked? I wish I could go back in time and join a Jukebox group buy ;(

Your best bet is to look into the classifieds or reddit and find a used set.  There are so many SA group buys right now that they are backed up almost an entire year.  Also if you want to try SA on the cheap (since almost any resell set will run you 200 and up) is to try maxkey SA.  You can find them at keyclack.com and a few other places.

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

I assume that the maxkey set is double shot abs?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yep same as SA from sp.

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

[Niomosy]

Maxkey should be doubleshot ABS, yes.  Word is, they've got old SP-style molds from Comtec (or something close to that.  Otherwise, keep an eye to the classifieds and the PMK site for any SA set sales.

[sony]

You can also pick up a set of filco SA which is about $70. It's different than most sets in that it's only particularly sculpted. It's row profile is 223333 where a lot of sets may be like 112343 or something.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

[Encabulator]

You can also pick up a set of filco SA which is about $70. It's different than most sets in that it's only particularly sculpted. It's row profile is 223333 where a lot of sets may be like 112343 or something.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

They look good! but my main concern is thickness.

[Niomosy]

You can also pick up a set of filco SA which is about $70. It's different than most sets in that it's only particularly sculpted. It's row profile is 223333 where a lot of sets may be like 112343 or something.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

They look good! but my main concern is thickness.

IIRC, they're SP SA made for Filco as a commercial customer.

[xtrafrood]

You can also pick up a set of filco SA which is about $70. It's different than most sets in that it's only particularly sculpted. It's row profile is 223333 where a lot of sets may be like 112343 or something.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

They look good! but my main concern is thickness.

IIRC, they're SP SA made for Filco as a commercial customer.

Brown in color and very similar to DSA row sculpting but definitely a PMK/SP dbl shot SA product. Costar inserts were glued in for some reason.

[Puddsy]

You can get Filco SA, SA Chronicler from oco, or you can buy some off the classifieds.

[Encabulator]

I have too much trouble spending over 70 on a SA set I don't care for. Some day SP will restock (or a massdrop will happen but DSA always wins)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[zslane]

$70 for a complete SA set is nothing compared to what a lot of folks pay for a single artisan keycap. Hell, I've seen MassDrop group buys for $75 spacebars. For the cost of just two of those suckers you could cover a full-size board in something really nice like SA Carbon. It's all relative.

[SpAmRaY]

Hell, I've seen MassDrop group buys for $75 spacebars.

Seriously?

I'd like to see this buy.

EDIT: Is this it? And reading the comments many had issues with them.  ) Crazy people. 

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/jelly-keys-spacebar/?mode=guest_open

But you can file that under 'artisan keycap' so the sky is the limit I guess. 

[derpingit]

Wrong "hobbie" to be in :/ SA sets usually sell close to $200 for a full set .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dantan]

Kind of funny but I'm selling my new and untouched SA for much less than $200 and no luck yet.

[Tally810]

Kind of funny but I'm selling my new and untouched SA for much less than $200 and no luck yet.

What set is it?

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

[Niomosy]

Wrong "hobbie" to be in :/ SA sets usually sell close to $200 for a full set .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They're frequently less than that.  Both Dancer and Dasher sets (base + numpad) were a bit over $200 total. 

[derpingit]

Wrong "hobbie" to be in :/ SA sets usually sell close to $200 for a full set .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They're frequently less than that.  Both Dancer and Dasher sets (base + numpad) were a bit over $200 total.

How is that statement any different than mine . Lol




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dantan]

Wrong "hobbie" to be in :/ SA sets usually sell close to $200 for a full set .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They're frequently less than that.  Both Dancer and Dasher sets (base + numpad) were a bit over $200 total.

How is that statement any different than mine . Lol




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's what happens when people respond too quickly to a message they see online.

[zslane]

Wrong "hobbie" to be in :/ SA sets usually sell close to $200 for a full set .

They're frequently less than that.  Both Dancer and Dasher sets (base + numpad) were a bit over $200 total.

How is that statement any different than mine . Lol

I think it's different in that Niomosy was talking about the combined cost of two SA sets (Dasher and Dancer). Based on the final price tiers for each colorway, the combined cost for the base (TKL) kit + numpad kit for both colorways was $68 + 25 + 73 + 25 = $191 + $10 shipping = $201 delivered.

[derpingit]

all my massdrop orders are on the 180 range. let's keep it friendly

[dantan]

That is a very good price. But if SP can make Dasher and Dancer for massdrop, how come they can't make that Nuclear Data for a massdrop? I have been waiting and some people say it will take until 2018 for a nuclear data GB.

[SpAmRaY]

That is a very good price. But if SP can make Dasher and Dancer for massdrop, how come they can't make that Nuclear Data for a massdrop? I have been waiting and some people say it will take until 2018 for a nuclear data GB.

SP's production capacity for SA caps is simply backed up. They can only make so caps for enthusiasts along with their normal business volume.

And I'm 99% sure nuclear green data will eventually be a set SP sells directly from their online store when they can catch up production and make them.

[Niomosy]

That is a very good price. But if SP can make Dasher and Dancer for massdrop, how come they can't make that Nuclear Data for a massdrop? I have been waiting and some people say it will take until 2018 for a nuclear data GB.

Wrong "hobbie" to be in :/ SA sets usually sell close to $200 for a full set .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They're frequently less than that.  Both Dancer and Dasher sets (base + numpad) were a bit over $200 total.

How is that statement any different than mine . Lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Two sets with base + numpad cost me a bit over $200 total.  That's barely over $100 per set.  Now if you start tacking lots of extras on, such as Ergodox, Planck, and novelties, the price can go up quickly.  However, a nice basic SA set isn't that massively expensive.  It can be rather pricey but so can a good GMK set.

That is a very good price. But if SP can make Dasher and Dancer for massdrop, how come they can't make that Nuclear Data for a massdrop? I have been waiting and some people say it will take until 2018 for a nuclear data GB.

Dasher and Dancer were in queue with MassDrop for months before it dropped in December.  At that, shipment is not expected until late July or early August.  Since then, the number of doubleshot SA orders has increased to the point where SP is booked through 2017 and seems to have halted additional doubleshot SA orders until they can clear some of the existing queue.

[manna]

I always hope someone design a fully sculpted set using the same font of the Filco branded one.
For some reason the Gorton Modified font, together with the bright colors, gives me a kid toys kind of vibe.

[zslane]

I always hope someone design a fully sculpted set using the same font of the Filco branded one.

I wouldn't be surprised to find that SP is prohibited from using those legend plates for any other set, in accordance with their contract with Filco.

For some reason the Gorton Modified font, together with the bright colors, gives me a kid toys kind of vibe.

Yeah, I kind of know what you mean. But not all SA colorways are like that. Honeywell, for example. That colorway has a very mature vibe, IMO.

[dantan]

I hope some Chinese manufacturer takes notice and starts making his own SA clones.

That's the only way to satisfy the market and us.

In any case SP can't lose business that they have no capacity to take on anyway.

SA.... all the way!

[zslane]

Yeah, I don't have any problem with a new manufacturer stepping in an satisfying demand that SP doesn't have the production capacity to fulfill. What I have a problem with is taking the creative work done by designers and exploiting it for their own gain without any effort to involve or even acknowledge them. These copiers may not be breaking any laws, but what they're doing is dishonorable and disrespectful and shouldn't be endorsed or condoned by anyone here.

[dantan]

These copiers may not be breaking any laws, but what they're doing is dishonorable and disrespectful and shouldn't be endorsed or condoned by anyone here.

I don't think they can copy without recreating, can they? If they're separately recreating a lookalike from scratch, it is usually legal and not all that unethical. Kind of like people who copy the Mona Lisa. As long as you're not claiming that your work is actually the Mona Lisa, you're entitled to sell your copies for as much as you like.

[gh341]

Saw this thread popup and wanted to share this link in case you have not seen it.
SA Taboo on zFrontier for $85 https://en.zfrontier.com/collections/keysets/products/sa-taboo

There has been a few sets manufactured by Maxkey in China to compete with SP, not sure if any has shipped yet. Personally joined one that was on keyclack not too long ago, also pmk has restocked a set recently.

[zslane]

These copiers may not be breaking any laws, but what they're doing is dishonorable and disrespectful and shouldn't be endorsed or condoned by anyone here.

I don't think they can copy without recreating, can they? If they're separately recreating a lookalike from scratch, it is usually legal and not all that unethical. Kind of like people who copy the Mona Lisa. As long as you're not claiming that your work is actually the Mona Lisa, you're entitled to sell your copies for as much as you like.

The distinction between "copying" and "recreating" is immaterial in terms of having a shred of originality and creative integrity. It is one thing to take an image like the Mona Lisa or The Scream and put an entirely new spin on it, making a unique and personal artistic statement in the process. It is another to take those images and make exact duplicates (as exact as you can make them) and sell them while the original artist is still alive and an active member of the community they work hard to serve. Are you honestly telling me you don't see the difference between copying Carbon--without even offering to involve or acknowledge the original designer--and selling prints of the Mona Lisa (centuries after the artist's death)?

[Niomosy]

I think the problem is we're looking for ethical behavior out of some companies that don't really have any need or desire to be ethical except when it impacts their bottom line.  It would be nice if the companies exhibited some better ethical behavior, though.

Fortunately, so far it seems MaxKeys has been content to have group buy makers working directly with them on various colorways after their initial run.  I can only hope this other company doing the copies can be brought up to speed on things.  With some improvements in their dyesub capabilities, they'd find themselves with plenty of new designs and group buys to work with.

[zslane]

With some improvements in their dyesub capabilities, they'd find themselves with plenty of new designs and group buys to work with.

Well, that doesn't address the very common case of sets that were only run once and yet are still in high (and recurring) demand as new folks enter the hobby. Another manufacturer comes along with the ability to run SA and DSA sets and, naturally, they are going to want to step in and fulfill the demand that SP simply can not. I get that. And I fully endorse their desire and willingness to support the community in this way. I just want them to involve the designer; to give the designer proper credit and allow them to financially benefit from the new sales.

I have no desire to shut down alternate avenues for highly sought after product, just so long as it done fairly and in a way that properly acknowledges and rewards the original designer, who by the way, not only came up with the idea for the set (along with any original novelties) but also created the marketplace demand for it, which these other companies are unfairly exploiting without so much as a nod of recognition to the person responsible for it all. It may not technically violate any laws, but it sure violates every definition of honorable/respectful/ethical behavior that I know of.

[Encabulator]

Why does this stuff happen to me. Just ordered a set of pbt gateron black blanks because I thought there was no hope but then this happens.

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x-matt3o-devtty-custom-keycap-set

What did I do in a past life to deserve this???

[zslane]

We live in a new golden age, Encabulator.

Remember, the pain in the wallet is only temporary. The joy the keycaps bring lasts a lifetime! 

[dario]

Remember, the pain in the wallet is only temporary. The joy the keycaps bring lasts a lifetime! 

LOL this is pure gold. I think I'm gonna steal this.

[Niomosy]

With some improvements in their dyesub capabilities, they'd find themselves with plenty of new designs and group buys to work with.

Well, that doesn't address the very common case of sets that were only run once and yet are still in high (and recurring) demand as new folks enter the hobby. Another manufacturer comes along with the ability to run SA and DSA sets and, naturally, they are going to want to step in and fulfill the demand that SP simply can not. I get that. And I fully endorse their desire and willingness to support the community in this way. I just want them to involve the designer; to give the designer proper credit and allow them to financially benefit from the new sales.

I have no desire to shut down alternate avenues for highly sought after product, just so long as it done fairly and in a way that properly acknowledges and rewards the original designer, who by the way, not only came up with the idea for the set (along with any original novelties) but also created the marketplace demand for it, which these other companies are unfairly exploiting without so much as a nod of recognition to the person responsible for it all. It may not technically violate any laws, but it sure violates every definition of honorable/respectful/ethical behavior that I know of.

I agree that there are a lot of designs that can handle some reruns and that these makers might be well suited to such an endeavor.  If they can engage the original designer or at least attempt to engage the original designer (let's face it, some are more willing than others), great.  The set's likely running regardless but at least going about it in a better way would be a good start.

I do think that some of these makers could find themselves some new work though.  PBT DSA that can be dyesub'd with light legends would likely be a hit for many.

[zslane]

I do think that some of these makers could find themselves some new work though.

Oh, I totally agree. Why copy if you can create?

Well, there are two main reasons they copy someone else rather than create something original: either because they lack the ability/talent, or because cashing in on something that has already proven itself in the marketplace is easier and deemed a more efficient use of time and resources. Could they create new work? Possibly. As Mr. Spock would say, they are either unable or unwilling to do so.

This whole "copy culture" issue reminds me of an article from back in the late 80s (or maybe early 90s) by William Gibson who took a "technology tour" of the Far East. When he got to Japan he visited a well-known computer company, and whereas the lobbies of our companies like Hewlett Packard and IBM and Texas Instruments have display cases with all the devices and technologies they had proudly invented over the years/decades, this Japanese company's lobby had display cases for all the devices and technologies they had proudly copied and made smaller/cheaper.

[Niomosy]

The hilarity of these copy cats is that they've got equipment that the community would love to put to good use if they'd take a moment and work with us on it. 

[rmendis]

I do think that some of these makers could find themselves some new work though.

Oh, I totally agree. Why copy if you can create?

Well, there are two main reasons they copy someone else rather than create something original: either because they lack the ability/talent, or because cashing in on something that has already proven itself in the marketplace is easier and deemed a more efficient use of time and resources. Could they create new work? Possibly. As Mr. Spock would say, they are either unable or unwilling to do so.

This whole "copy culture" issue reminds me of an article from back in the late 80s (or maybe early 90s) by William Gibson who took a "technology tour" of the Far East. When he got to Japan he visited a well-known computer company, and whereas the lobbies of our companies like Hewlett Packard and IBM and Texas Instruments have display cases with all the devices and technologies they had proudly invented over the years/decades, this Japanese company's lobby had display cases for all the devices and technologies they had proudly copied and made smaller/cheaper.

I read an interesting article that the Chinese copycat culture is somewhat caused by how the language is learned (rote memorization)

Can't find the article, but here's another reference to it: https://rendezvous.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/25/why-do-the-chinese-copy-so-much/

Perhaps the language is a reason why: you cannot learn Chinese unless you spend years memorizing thousands of characters needed to achieve literacy, unless you copy, single-mindedly, unquestioningly. Some linguists and cultural historians believe so much mental energy and brain space is taken up by rote learning of the language, that little is left over for innovative thinking.

[phinix]

Hard to find SA sets on sale or in stock in shops.

When trying to buy some used sets, I was quoted for Retro SA set over £250, so had to step off:(

Sometimes you may find some Sa sets for sale in forum's market place or on ebay, but it's very hard to find.

I'm hunting for Penumbra and retro set for years now...

[zslane]

Hard to find SA sets on sale or in stock in shops.

When trying to buy some used sets, I was quoted for Retro SA set over £250, so had to step off:(

Sometimes you may find some Sa sets for sale in forum's market place or on ebay, but it's very hard to find.

I'm hunting for Penumbra and retro set for years now...

SA sets are made-to-order, so you're generally not going to find them sitting around "in stock" somewhere, just waiting for orders. Due to the fundamental economics of SA sets (long-term demand far outstripping supply), they effectively become collector's items the moment their group buys close. And since owners are loathe to part with them, even if they don't have an immediate use for them, the aftermarket prices you see are collector prices, not original production prices.

[Niomosy]

Realistically, until the SA hype does down, the situation will remain similar to what it is.  MaxKeys can help alleviate the problem for those wanting to try out the SA style of caps if you're willing to go that route.  There are threads here and on /r/MK that deal with the differences between SP and MaxKeys SA caps.  If you want SP SA caps, though, it's a waiting game no matter what.

[zslane]

Yeah, well even MaxKeys takes time to produce SA sets. There is a multi-month turnaround time for them too, and it may not be long before they develop a backlog similar to SP's. They are only a minor relief to the SA family's burgeoning popularity.

[dantan]

SA sets are made-to-order, so you're generally not going to find them sitting around "in stock" somewhere, just waiting for orders. Due to the fundamental economics of SA sets (long-term demand far outstripping supply), they effectively become collector's items the moment their group buys close. And since owners are loathe to part with them, even if they don't have an immediate use for them, the aftermarket prices you see are collector prices, not original production prices.

Nonsense, I can't even sell my SA at 90% of cost despite being totally new and never used.

There is a difference between 'want', and 'wiling to pay near market rate for it'.

There is also a difference between 'group buy' (ie rare, limited edition, etc) and 'production' (ie nearly worthless). I've got lowballs like 40% of my cost so not keen on selling anymore.

There are group buy keycaps literally worth their weight in silver. And there are factory made keycaps, not inferior in quality, but worth less than 50% secondhand.

[Niomosy]

The value of the set is going to vary.  Desirable colorways are going to go for more.

[zslane]

Nonsense, I can't even sell my SA at 90% of cost despite being totally new and never used.

What SA set is it?

[dantan]

Nonsense, I can't even sell my SA at 90% of cost despite being totally new and never used.

What SA set is it?

Ice Cap

And just for the record, I overcame my recent cash crunch already. So I'm not selling any lower. If I can sell the SA that's fine, but I'm not taking lowballs.

[zslane]

Nonsense, I can't even sell my SA at 90% of cost despite being totally new and never used.

What SA set is it?

Ice Cap

Ah, I see.

I think part of the problem with selling Ice Cap right now is that it is still available, new, from PMK. I suggest waiting until it goes out of stock at PMK and then trying again. Also, I would guess that the demand for uniform R3 SA sets is substantially lower then for fully sculptured sets, so that's sort of working against you too. But I'm sure eventually the market conditions for selling used Ice Cap SA will become favorable again.

[dantan]

I think part of the problem with selling Ice Cap right now is that it is still available, new, from PMK. I suggest waiting until it goes out of stock at PMK and then trying again. Also, I would guess that the demand for uniform R3 SA sets is substantially lower then for fully sculptured sets, so that's sort of working against you too. But I'm sure eventually the market conditions for selling used Ice Cap SA will become favorable again.

Even at a discount from retail, can't sell it to Europe. Which I find kinda odd because Europeans have to pay a heck lot in shipping if you ship direct.

Anyway I prefer uniform profile which lets you move around to different layout. Fully sculptered, you have to stick with a conventional layout. I was window shopping that Matt30 SA set now active on massdrop, and if you have a non conventional layout you need to pay quite a lot more to get keycaps of your profile.

[zslane]

Anyway I prefer uniform profile which lets you move around to different layout. Fully sculptered, you have to stick with a conventional layout. I was window shopping that Matt30 SA set now active on massdrop, and if you have a non conventional layout you need to pay quite a lot more to get keycaps of your profile.

Sure, I totally get the advantages of uniform R3. I have Ice Cap SA on one of my Pok3rs, in fact. I'm just saying that even though you and I like it, the fact remains that the majority of folks out there aren't looking for uniform R3 when they are looking for SA sets. It just isn't as popular, despite being more friendly to alternate layouts. And that's not surprising; alternate layouts are not commonly used, and so uniform profile SA sets are going to appeal to a very select few (relatively speaking). That doesn't make SA difficult to sell, it just makes uniform SA difficult to sell.

[Niomosy]

I think the community or at least fair parts of it, at times, has seemed to forget that full size and TKL ANSI keyboards are a huge chunk of the mech board market.  Plenty of Chinese cap makers seem to have no problems regularly selling round after round designed around only those types of keyboards.

[dantan]

I think the community or at least fair parts of it, at times, has seemed to forget that full size and TKL ANSI keyboards are a huge chunk of the mech board market.  Plenty of Chinese cap makers seem to have no problems regularly selling round after round designed around only those types of keyboards.

No matter how people may praise GMK for quality or SP for being friendly, they make very, very few keycaps compared to the Chinese.

It is Chinese mass production that makes variety, availability and price good for all.

[zslane]

It is Chinese mass production that makes variety, availability and price good for all.

And also largely eliminates the need for anyone to buy someone else's used SA set.

[Niomosy]

I think the community or at least fair parts of it, at times, has seemed to forget that full size and TKL ANSI keyboards are a huge chunk of the mech board market.  Plenty of Chinese cap makers seem to have no problems regularly selling round after round designed around only those types of keyboards.

No matter how people may praise GMK for quality or SP for being friendly, they make very, very few keycaps compared to the Chinese.

It is Chinese mass production that makes variety, availability and price good for all.

Well, there's a bit of a "you get what you pay for" situation going on with Chinese caps.  They can get pretty low quality.  Also realize that GMK and SP are just two companies compared to the larger number number of Chinese companies making caps.