Author Topic: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system  (Read 34236 times)

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Offline exitfire401

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #50 on: Wed, 30 March 2016, 19:26:55 »
One of the 'risk bottlenecks' seems to be a singular reliance on the GB leader for information. Requiring a second leader as a check-and-balance seems like a good idea. There should be a reasonable indication that the second person is not working in the interest of the GB leader.

Can you explain how this would work in practice?  Isn't the second individual still relying on the first to provide them with updates?  What happens when the first leader goes dark - how do they provide anything more beneficial than saying "well, I don't know what's going on"?

Maybe I'm misinterpreting your suggestion.

My interpretation of the multiple buy runners assumes that both would have access to the vendor. It would obviously still limit who has access to the funds (unless somebody wanted to create a "group" paypal for that buy) but would help insure if something came up for one person Injury, sickness, family, etc.), there would either A) still be an open line of communication with the vendor and B) have somebody to hold accountable.
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Offline ddot

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #51 on: Wed, 30 March 2016, 21:53:10 »
Personally I'd prefer if more people took a normal approach to selling goods: buy the keys/PCBs/etc. up front after an interest check and sell after.

At some point things cross over from being a group buy to being a vender.  I view them as 2 different models, with 2 different sets of pros and cons and probably should have 2 different sets of rules to govern. Nothing wrong with preferring or supporting that approach, but I do think the "traditional" group buy has its advantages. The question is how to keep those advantages while minimizing the possible downsides.
« Last Edit: Wed, 30 March 2016, 21:55:30 by ddot »

Offline exitfire401

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #52 on: Wed, 30 March 2016, 22:06:11 »
Personally I'd prefer if more people took a normal approach to selling goods: buy the keys/PCBs/etc. up front after an interest check and sell after.

At some point things cross over from being a group buy to being a vender.  I view them as 2 different models, with 2 different sets of pros and cons and probably should have 2 different sets of rules to govern. Nothing wrong with preferring or supporting that approach, but I do think the "traditional" group buy has its advantages. The question is how to keep those advantages while minimizing the possible downsides.

Agreed. Not everybody has a couple thousand dollars lying around to have something manufactured. Group buys are essentially what make 90% of the things we have here feasible.
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Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #53 on: Wed, 30 March 2016, 22:12:24 »
One of the 'risk bottlenecks' seems to be a singular reliance on the GB leader for information. Requiring a second leader as a check-and-balance seems like a good idea. There should be a reasonable indication that the second person is not working in the interest of the GB leader.

Can you explain how this would work in practice?  Isn't the second individual still relying on the first to provide them with updates?  What happens when the first leader goes dark - how do they provide anything more beneficial than saying "well, I don't know what's going on"?

Maybe I'm misinterpreting your suggestion.

My interpretation of the multiple buy runners assumes that both would have access to the vendor. It would obviously still limit who has access to the funds (unless somebody wanted to create a "group" paypal for that buy) but would help insure if something came up for one person Injury, sickness, family, etc.), there would either A) still be an open line of communication with the vendor and B) have somebody to hold accountable.

That makes sense, thanks for explaining.

Offline Puddsy

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #54 on: Thu, 31 March 2016, 01:09:05 »
i didn't read the rest of the thread

also i lurk (and lurk only) on another account so forgive the seeming absence

more communication would be good, from both vendors and distributors (such as GMK and sig. plastics)

more accountability for vendors especially, don't want another MOZ on our hands

if **** is taking a while i want screenshots of emails, even with names blurred would be fine

some sort of verification before someone starts a GB that a final product will be delivered, no more of that korean PBT keycaps getting stolen bull****

none of that "it's coming just wait" bull****, i want clear updates even if they just say "we haven't heard from the distributor in x amount of time"

delete posts that provide information of the GB status that are not from people who are running it

no more of that buddy buddy **** in GBs. none of that "on skype they said..." **** because not everyone has been on this forum since it was spawned, and more importantly some of us are stupid and nobody likes us so we can't get those updates.
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Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #55 on: Thu, 31 March 2016, 08:07:04 »
also i lurk (and lurk only) on another account so forgive the seeming absence

...

You know the rules.

There is no functional reason for you to create another account.

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #56 on: Thu, 31 March 2016, 11:23:04 »
more communication would be good, from both vendors and distributors (such as GMK and sig. plastics). if **** is taking a while i want screenshots of emails, even with names blurred would be fine. some sort of verification before someone starts a GB that a final product will be delivered, no more of that korean PBT keycaps getting stolen bull****. none of that "it's coming just wait" bull****, i want clear updates even if they just say "we haven't heard from the distributor in x amount of time"

delete posts that provide information of the GB status that are not from people who are running it. no more of that buddy buddy **** in GBs. none of that "on skype they said..." ****

I agree with this. If you're running a GB for say keycaps, it would be nice to see an email saying you submitted the order. A blurred out invoice, something that is a little more official than "pls wait".

Definitely no more backseat updates. Updates straight from the organizer(s) and not their friends or rumors someone heard.

Anyways, we choose who we allow to run group buys.  We need to be a little more discerning and not believe everything we hear.  Cell phone pictures are easy to take and upload.  Organizers unwilling to provide these assurances shouldn't be trusted.  PULL YOUR MONEY.

i agree; the lax and trusting attitude of the community required of niche hobbyists of any kind is often too lax and trusting, allowing people handling their money to act rather carelessly. mandatory updates to a representative (above) would be even easier than logging into gh and posting a photo, and if they are unable to do it, the correspondent could.

This so much. I find people are far too trusting and never bother to do any research as to who's running the buy. And no one seems to speak out while the GB is running, only when things go bad. If you're unsure whether you should participate in a GB, find someone you trust on the forum and ask them if they'd join the buy. Maybe you can live without the thing right now and have it pop up in the classifieds where you've got a little more trust.

Get a bad feeling about your money 2 months into the buy? ****ing pull it. Don't let sheep mentality affect how you act.



I think GBs are in serious need of a shake up. I don't participate in many anymore because I don't trust more GB runners. Ivan ****ed me over during the Cherry stabilizer buy (never shipped my order) and it sucked because he was one of the last runners I thought I could rely on. CTRL ALT has a systemic problem with shipping late and lack of updates until you call them out; and so many ****ing excuses. So even the people who seem reliable may not be.

I generally wait until the item I want shows up in the classifieds so I know I've got a quicker turnaround and better help from PayPal. Or I only buy from the short list of trusted GB runners I have left.

Some ideas for making me trust GBs again:
1) The previously mentioned tag team idea is great. I also like the proof of submitted work idea. Constant updates are good as well as limiting the number of GBs a person/team can run at once.

2) I think that the screening process should be MORE intense. Time on GH and postcount both have flaws. Let's create a Google Form and setup a registry of GB runners WITH THEIR CONTACT INFORMATION. The mods can then step in and call/text them if things aren't going well. And the Form can help screen for things such as financial stability, age, etc.

3) A long shot would be having a third party hold the money until the buy is "certified" and the money can be released. I don't think we have such a reliable 3rd party though.

4) IF YOU HAVE ****ED UP A GB IN THE PAST, YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO RUN ONE AGAIN. So going with my example before, Ivan should be banned. And I don't think Moz should be running them either...through MD or otherwise.

5) Pausing GBs altogether and letting the hype die down around them. Maybe we need to step back as a community and re-evaluate whether or not this is Geekhack or BestBuy.com. A pause would help everyone kinda sit back and think about that. Is this a place to blindly throw money at the screen or to come together about customizing keyboards and meeting like minded people?

Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #57 on: Thu, 31 March 2016, 11:30:54 »
4) IF YOU HAVE ****ED UP A GB IN THE PAST, YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO RUN ONE AGAIN. So going with my example before, Ivan should be banned. And I don't think Moz should be running them either...through MD or otherwise.

I've commented on this a lot.  Such a list exists, and both names you mention are on it. 

Good points though.

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #58 on: Thu, 31 March 2016, 11:37:49 »
4) IF YOU HAVE ****ED UP A GB IN THE PAST, YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO RUN ONE AGAIN. So going with my example before, Ivan should be banned. And I don't think Moz should be running them either...through MD or otherwise.

I've commented on this a lot.  Such a list exists, and both names you mention are on it. 

But Moz still has this thread up. If he's on the list, that thread shouldn't be up IMO.

Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #59 on: Thu, 31 March 2016, 11:41:21 »
4) IF YOU HAVE ****ED UP A GB IN THE PAST, YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO RUN ONE AGAIN. So going with my example before, Ivan should be banned. And I don't think Moz should be running them either...through MD or otherwise.

I've commented on this a lot.  Such a list exists, and both names you mention are on it. 

But Moz still has this thread up. If he's on the list, that thread shouldn't be up IMO.

So it's not about risk mitigation, but rather about punishing him?  Those are all running through Massdrop...  I fail to see how the fact that he came up with the design is of relevance here.

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #60 on: Thu, 31 March 2016, 11:52:20 »
If we're going with the either risk mitigation or punishment, why not both. Yes, I think the team should punish this kinda stuff. It looks like you can drop your end on GBs, do something with the money, disappear, then come back and continue advertising GBs on GH with no issue. Sure it's running through Massdrop so it's hopefully much safer but that doesn't mean that the team should continue legitimizing his actions associated with GBs. Of course you can't stop MD's actions but you can at least block the thread. Maybe punishing actions will steer GB running in a more positive direction.

Offline ideus

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #61 on: Thu, 31 March 2016, 12:26:57 »
The thread should change the focus from the group buy leaders to the group buyers, GH rules should enforce safety measures to avoid potential buyers risks, from this perspective, the thread and feedback is no more about punishment, it is about protection measures, and safe buys.

Again, everything that prevents current or future members to run with a bunch of others' money will be in the best interest of GH members, and that should be the focus of the thread, if someone that already scammed GH, the important thing is that he/she cannot do that again, with the same or any other identity.


Offline digi

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #62 on: Thu, 31 March 2016, 12:38:15 »
This so much. I find people are far too trusting and never bother to do any research as to who's running the buy. And no one seems to speak out while the GB is running, only when things go bad. If you're unsure whether you should participate in a GB, find someone you trust on the forum and ask them if they'd join the buy. Maybe you can live without the thing right now and have it pop up in the classifieds where you've got a little more trust.

Get a bad feeling about your money 2 months into the buy? ****ing pull it. Don't let sheep mentality affect how you act.



I think GBs are in serious need of a shake up. I don't participate in many anymore because I don't trust more GB runners. Ivan ****ed me over during the Cherry stabilizer buy (never shipped my order) and it sucked because he was one of the last runners I thought I could rely on. CTRL ALT has a systemic problem with shipping late and lack of updates until you call them out; and so many ****ing excuses. So even the people who seem reliable may not be.

I generally wait until the item I want shows up in the classifieds so I know I've got a quicker turnaround and better help from PayPal. Or I only buy from the short list of trusted GB runners I have left.

Some ideas for making me trust GBs again:
1) The previously mentioned tag team idea is great. I also like the proof of submitted work idea. Constant updates are good as well as limiting the number of GBs a person/team can run at once.

2) I think that the screening process should be MORE intense. Time on GH and postcount both have flaws. Let's create a Google Form and setup a registry of GB runners WITH THEIR CONTACT INFORMATION. The mods can then step in and call/text them if things aren't going well. And the Form can help screen for things such as financial stability, age, etc.

3) A long shot would be having a third party hold the money until the buy is "certified" and the money can be released. I don't think we have such a reliable 3rd party though.

4) IF YOU HAVE ****ED UP A GB IN THE PAST, YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO RUN ONE AGAIN. So going with my example before, Ivan should be banned. And I don't think Moz should be running them either...through MD or otherwise.

5) Pausing GBs altogether and letting the hype die down around them. Maybe we need to step back as a community and re-evaluate whether or not this is Geekhack or BestBuy.com. A pause would help everyone kinda sit back and think about that. Is this a place to blindly throw money at the screen or to come together about customizing keyboards and meeting like minded people?

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Offline demik

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #63 on: Thu, 31 March 2016, 12:50:07 »
Welcome back digi. We missed you. Maybe not bunny, but I did.
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Offline digi

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #64 on: Thu, 31 March 2016, 12:51:06 »
Welcome back digi. We missed you. Maybe not bunny, but I did.

<3 one love brutha! I got a Model F while I was muted, life is good. ;D

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #65 on: Thu, 31 March 2016, 12:57:02 »
* Throughout my response I will use the generic 'you,' not addressing CPTBadAss directly.

Maybe you can live without the thing right now and have it pop up in the classifieds where you've got a little more trust.

The problem with this type of thinking, as you know, is this: if fewer people place orders in the group buy, the cost will be higher for everyone, OR the MOQ might not be met to make the buy possible at all. Sure, it's ultimately your own decision as to whether or not to participate in a group buy, and you should ALWAYS research the leader/organizer and decide whether or not that person has built up trust within the community. But having a blanket policy not to participate in group buys because you can always wait and pick up the item in Classifeds isn't the right attitude, either. I guess it all depends on the level of trust you place in the leader/organizer. Some people choose to build trust in the community by participating in it; while others are just out to make a quick buck, or get something made that they personally want, but don't have the money to fund themselves.


Get a bad feeling about your money 2 months into the buy? ****ing pull it. Don't let sheep mentality affect how you act.

Again, we need to clarify this 'bad feeling.' Should you pull your money (request a refund or file a PayPal dispute) because of buyer's remorse, or because you have a personal financial crisis after the fact? ABSOLUTELY NOT. You agreed to participate, and paid into the buy, and your funds are being used to have the items fabricated or produced. The leader/organizer most likely doesn't have your funds to send you a refund, because they already paid the manufacturer to have them make the item you ordered.

Should you initiate a dispute because the leader/organizer hasn't responded to repeated requests to post a status update, or because they refuse to contact you after multiple attempts have been made to establish contact? OF COURSE! There is no excuse for this type of behavior from a GB leader, and it shouldn't be tolerated. If things get this far, there is definitely a problem.
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Offline evangs

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #66 on: Thu, 31 March 2016, 13:10:54 »
* Throughout my response I will use the generic 'you,' not addressing CPTBadAss directly.

Maybe you can live without the thing right now and have it pop up in the classifieds where you've got a little more trust.

The problem with this type of thinking, as you know, is this: if fewer people place orders in the group buy, the cost will be higher for everyone, OR the MOQ might not be met to make the buy possible at all. Sure, it's ultimately your own decision as to whether or not to participate in a group buy, and you should ALWAYS research the leader/organizer and decide whether or not that person has built up trust within the community. But having a blanket policy not to participate in group buys because you can always wait and pick up the item in Classifeds isn't the right attitude, either. I guess it all depends on the level of trust you place in the leader/organizer. Some people choose to build trust in the community by participating in it; while others are just out to make a quick buck, or get something made that they personally want, but don't have the money to fund themselves.


Get a bad feeling about your money 2 months into the buy? ****ing pull it. Don't let sheep mentality affect how you act.

Again, we need to clarify this 'bad feeling.' Should you pull your money (request a refund or file a PayPal dispute) because of buyer's remorse, or because you have a personal financial crisis after the fact? ABSOLUTELY NOT. You agreed to participate, and paid into the buy, and your funds are being used to have the items fabricated or produced. The leader/organizer most likely doesn't have your funds to send you a refund, because they already paid the manufacturer to have them make the item you ordered.

Should you initiate a dispute because the leader/organizer hasn't responded to repeated requests to post a status update, or because they refuse to contact you after multiple attempts have been made to establish contact? OF COURSE! There is no excuse for this type of behavior from a GB leader, and it shouldn't be tolerated. If things get this far, there is definitely a problem.

Spot on

Offline begemotz

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #67 on: Thu, 31 March 2016, 20:36:48 »
One of the 'risk bottlenecks' seems to be a singular reliance on the GB leader for information. Requiring a second leader as a check-and-balance seems like a good idea. There should be a reasonable indication that the second person is not working in the interest of the GB leader.

Can you explain how this would work in practice?  Isn't the second individual still relying on the first to provide them with updates?  What happens when the first leader goes dark - how do they provide anything more beneficial than saying "well, I don't know what's going on"?

Maybe I'm misinterpreting your suggestion.

I was thinking specifically about the stages in the GB that could be verified - for instance, independent verification that 1) the GBL/manufacturer relationship exists (quote/order phase) 2) that the manufacturer has received payment (pre-production/production phase) 3) that the manufacturer has sent the product to the GBL (pre-shipping phase). All this information would come directly from the manufacturer rather than the GBL. And, especially in the earlier stages, minimizes risk for the buyer because the warning signs would allow them to dispute the charge within the protection window. I also think that there is less risk as the GB proceeds- its more likely that a GBL takes the money and doesn't send it along to the manufacturer than it is that the GBL receives the shipment and then doesn't ship things out. Even if not more likely, in the latter case, it is more easily salvaged (e.g. someone else offers to take the bulk shipment and then doing the individual shipping) whereas in the former, that money would probably be long gone.

To your point though -- maybe it is also the case that the secondary person has enough personal information about the GBL so that they can contact them IRL. There probably be some transparency about who the GBL is -- even if it is information only held by the second person.

Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #68 on: Thu, 31 March 2016, 21:05:01 »
One of the 'risk bottlenecks' seems to be a singular reliance on the GB leader for information. Requiring a second leader as a check-and-balance seems like a good idea. There should be a reasonable indication that the second person is not working in the interest of the GB leader.

Can you explain how this would work in practice?  Isn't the second individual still relying on the first to provide them with updates?  What happens when the first leader goes dark - how do they provide anything more beneficial than saying "well, I don't know what's going on"?

Maybe I'm misinterpreting your suggestion.

I was thinking specifically about the stages in the GB that could be verified - for instance, independent verification that 1) the GBL/manufacturer relationship exists (quote/order phase) 2) that the manufacturer has received payment (pre-production/production phase) 3) that the manufacturer has sent the product to the GBL (pre-shipping phase). All this information would come directly from the manufacturer rather than the GBL. And, especially in the earlier stages, minimizes risk for the buyer because the warning signs would allow them to dispute the charge within the protection window. I also think that there is less risk as the GB proceeds- its more likely that a GBL takes the money and doesn't send it along to the manufacturer than it is that the GBL receives the shipment and then doesn't ship things out. Even if not more likely, in the latter case, it is more easily salvaged (e.g. someone else offers to take the bulk shipment and then doing the individual shipping) whereas in the former, that money would probably be long gone.

To your point though -- maybe it is also the case that the secondary person has enough personal information about the GBL so that they can contact them IRL. There probably be some transparency about who the GBL is -- even if it is information only held by the second person.

Ahh, great point.  In the past it has always been standard that only one person is in communication with the manufacturer, but if it was a joint communication/purchase from the get-go we'd have a backup line of communication.  (I know I'm just restating what you said xD but to me that point specifically is the big winner)  That would be a really great thing to implement, IMO. :thumb:

Offline demik

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #69 on: Thu, 31 March 2016, 22:56:46 »
Quote
Get a bad feeling about your money 2 months into the buy? ****ing pull it. Don't let sheep mentality affect how you act.

been saying this since clackvent went sour. and it's extremely selfish of people to tell others otherwise.
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Offline ddot

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #70 on: Fri, 01 April 2016, 00:14:58 »
Quote
Get a bad feeling about your money 2 months into the buy? ****ing pull it. Don't let sheep mentality affect how you act.

been saying this since clackvent went sour. and it's extremely selfish of people to tell others otherwise.

It's also extremely selfish to be pulling committed money from a legitimate group buy just because you have a funny feeling.  You have to make sure that funny feeling is justified and not just indigestion.

Offline billnye

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #71 on: Fri, 01 April 2016, 20:19:00 »
I think most of the stuff that has been proposed in the OP is very reasonable.

When running my group buys I just tried to post an update at least once a week, even if it wasn't much, just to let everyone know what was going on. Communicating is the best way to keep everyone happy.

Having some sort of accountability system in place is a good idea, but I think it is also important to not make it too convoluted and force the group buy leader to jump through a lot of hoops to get stuff done. It is hard enough running a group buy as it is and if it becomes a bureaucratic nightmare it would deter more people.

The transition to vendors running more group buys is something I saw as inevitable. As the community continues to grow, it loses some of the personal connection between users and small community projects like group buys turn into business ventures by companies looking to make a profit, such as Massdrop. I don't think this is an entirely bad thing, but it certainly is a change. I would be pretty surprised if any individual group buys for keysets run by users not associated with a vendor/business like ctrl alt or massdrop are able to succeed after this. I hope I am wrong, but it seems doubtful.

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #72 on: Sat, 02 April 2016, 08:02:52 »
Before I go on my rant, I just want to preface it by saying that I mostly agree with what flabbergast has to say here.  Geekhack is run by volunteers and any type of enforcement always will be sporadic.

This is a forum. I do not think the mods should be involved any more than they are now; i.e. I do not like any of the "mods should keep insurance policy", etc... This would make GBs look more legitimate (than they really are), and would even more fuel the impression that "it's run on GH so GH should do something about this". Again, I thought this is a forum, not a new MassDrop.

I personally do not really agree with any kind of hard requirements. I would suggest that in every GB thread the second post would be the CAVEAT EMPTOR, which would explicitly state that *the expectation* is that these requirements should be followed by the GB leader, explain what options do participants have (paypal chargeback within 180 days) {and maybe a few links to the failed buys. It's hard to find these for the newcomers, speaking from experience.}

It should also say in big red letters that the GB participants are basically giving money to a private person (the GB leader), based only on what they read on an internet forum, and so that they should think long and hard about trust and risk.

If the GB leader has good reasons not to follow some/any of these *expectations* and manages to convince enough people even despite these warnings, then good for her/him.

EDIT: BTW, the caveat emptor should be even more emphasised for the GB that are linked from here which may look more "legitimate" than GBs run from here, e.g. Ellipses's GB. Just that fact that he's got a website and a checkout system there does not mean that it's any different from a GB on GH; it's still giving money to a private person on a promise. {I am participating in these things, I trust Ellipse ATM, but I do understand the risk.}

This whole discussion reminds me of government regulation.  We have a problem, so we create more rules and requirements to attempt prevent the problem in the future.  However, in our attempts to solve the problem, we create so much burden that we may discourage group buys from every happening.  As I read all the suggestions here, I am formulating ways in which I still can scam people.  The rules will be in place, but people can still get around them.

I mentioned this in one of the other threads, and I know there has been discussion of some sort of
S-corporation, and I think that Geekhack's best long-term solution is some sort of legal entity that can be held accountable for not delivering the product as promised.  Every group buy organizer must use this legal entity to process payments from buyers and submit payments to manufacturers.  The legal entity also would hold excess group buy money from the organizer until the group buy is completed.  In the case that the group buys fails (which some will, without a doubt), the entity returns the money to the buyers.  I guess that would almost make Geekhack a company that is paying independent contractors for their work.

I'm not sure how this entity would deal with all the little expenses involved in a group buy, like shipping, packaging materials, payments for multiple small items.  Like having to contact a board directors to buy a shipping label sounds like a terrible situation.

In general, the entity would not allow the group buy organizer to collect any extra payment until the group buy is completed and customers are happy. 

This solution, however, is not easy.  It will require time, knowledge, investment, administrative work, upkeep costs, and potentially taxes and fees.  It may even need a small board of directors to oversee the whole operation.  And the more I write about what this idea entails, the more I realize how ridiculous it is to actually implement for hobby community.

In the long run, though, I feel that Geekhack needs a legal entity (besides Paypal) to run group buys that keep organizers accountable and makes buyers feel safe about where they are putting $$$.  How much money is transferred each year as a result of keyboard group buys?  Does it balloon into the millions?  More rules and requirements sound like the solution and, in theory, and may work in the short term, but I don't have faith in their efficacy in the long term.

A group buy organizer would then have a choice.  Run the group buy through the legal entity, or the traditional way without the protection of a legal entity.  Buyers decide upon the success.  For small group buys with only a few dozen buyers at most, the legal entity seems like too much of a hassle.

In my opinion, the time of trusting individuals to complete group buys to their fruition is over.  This hobby is too big, with too much money, with too much potential for easy profit and scams, that we cannot rely on trust and following a few rules alone as the surety for running and completing a group buy.
« Last Edit: Thu, 07 April 2016, 22:29:28 by vivalarevolución »
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Offline Puddsy

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #73 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 20:04:09 »
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Offline njbair

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #74 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 20:41:30 »
also i lurk (and lurk only) on another account so forgive the seeming absence

...

You know the rules.

There is no functional reason for you to create another account.

the only functional reason is to **** up the "last online" date

which is all that i'm doing

i like to think it gets me more PMs
Then why do you need an account? Just log out.

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Offline Puddsy

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #75 on: Tue, 05 April 2016, 00:10:17 »
also i lurk (and lurk only) on another account so forgive the seeming absence

...

You know the rules.

There is no functional reason for you to create another account.

the only functional reason is to **** up the "last online" date

which is all that i'm doing

i like to think it gets me more PMs
Then why do you need an account? Just log out.

it's more fun this way
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Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Feedback for changes to the current group buy system
« Reply #76 on: Tue, 05 April 2016, 07:57:36 »
also i lurk (and lurk only) on another account so forgive the seeming absence

...

You know the rules.

There is no functional reason for you to create another account.

the only functional reason is to **** up the "last online" date

which is all that i'm doing

i like to think it gets me more PMs
Then why do you need an account? Just log out.

it's more fun this way

Breaking the rules is super fun.