Author Topic: Why split keyboards?  (Read 20313 times)

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Offline Architect

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Why split keyboards?
« Reply #50 on: Mon, 23 January 2012, 05:19:31 »
Quote from: input nirvana;496660
Architect:
That is a perfect example of personal preference regarding the split keyboard design, it's mostly a value statement.

That's what I meant it to be, like a**holes we've all got opinions :() I've been trying to convince myself to like the separated or true split design (I - no kidding - love buying some expensive new ergo keyboard) but keep coming up negative.

Quote from: Proword;496651
The grey "pebbly lizard texture" is quite deliberate, as it's designed to minimise reflected glare and hence easier on the eyes.

OK makes sense, but I'd debate on the utility of that in a keyboard.

Quote
The keycaps are usually hidden by the fingers so why is that a problem?  A five year old?  Scarcely.

As I said a good looking setup is part-and-parcel with how well I'll perform. Let me give an example, I used to be a performing musician, and I bought a concert tux and set of performance suits. People wondered, why? It was all about the music right? The clothes shouldn't matter. Well, they made me look good, so therefore I felt good, and was more confident and played better (sometimes in front of 70,000 people and on the radio!) Same with my computer setup, I work hard to keep cables, dust, and as much as I can, colors looking good so I'm comfortable and happily working away.


Quote
I've met Stephen Hobday on a couple of occasions, and although he was born in 1916, he's still pretty sharp of mind.  He knows what's what when it comes to ergonomics.  And has been pointed out previously cost is minimal, I bought my first Maltron in 1986 and I'm still using it.  Even at today's price of 375 pounds UK, that's roughly 14 pounds UK per year (about $20.60 Aust as at today's prices; $21.70 US) , dirt cheap.  (But it was certainly nowhere near that price originally.)

Understand, I'd pay whatever it took, but I'd actually need three keyboards minimum, four including work.

Quote
To get back to the original topic, being used to a split keyboard I have to say that I've never thought for a moment I'd like to change anything about it. It's not a case so much as why do I like it as I really feel very uncomfortable with anything else. With the Maltron it also has to do with the 3D curve of the keys. Each individual key is set at a different angle to enable the the finger tip to strike "square on", and if I were to somehow be able to spread or narrow the split, then there's a chance that that feature would be nullified.


You can see the thinking behind the "key tilting" in this paper, towards the bottom.

http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info...al-stress.html

So from my view the "split" between keyboard halves is only a single factor which I'd have to consider.

I think I saw some post from you that you also are a programmer? If so what model do you suggest, both Mac and PC?

I look seriously at the Maltron, sometimes think about getting one just to test it. If the TrulyErgonomic hadn't come along last year I would have one by now. As you know text navigation is the big thing for programming, both for speed and ergonomics, and I'm in love with the simultaneous eight finger navigation on the TE, compared to 4 and 2 on Kinesis and Maltron respectively. If I had more desk space to spare I'd get one for sure.
TECK 209 Blank Keys; Leopold Number Pad; X-Keys Professional; X-Keys 84.

Offline Input Nirvana

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Why split keyboards?
« Reply #51 on: Mon, 23 January 2012, 05:24:44 »
Quote from: Proword;496667
An order for 350 Maltrons from Turkey.  I wonder why they wanted pink????

Because they can :)  
I kinda like it.

I love the keywells of Kinesis. I will eventually try the most recent model Maltron with the trackball. I'm done with old technology. I'm very curious as to how they will compare.

It's 3 am, rainy/windy, a balmy 60 degrees F. I'm going a couple blocks to the beach to check it out! If I don't post ever again, well, you know...we all have our time :)

GO JOE!
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
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Offline Architect

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Why split keyboards?
« Reply #52 on: Mon, 23 January 2012, 05:50:19 »
Quote from: input nirvana;496675
Because they can :)  
I kinda like it.

I love the keywells of Kinesis. I will eventually try the most recent model Maltron with the trackball. I'm done with old technology. I'm very curious as to how they will compare.

It's 3 am, rainy/windy, a balmy 60 degrees F. I'm going a couple blocks to the beach to check it out! If I don't post ever again, well, you know...we all have our time :)

GO JOE!

Hm, sounds like Southern California this morning :)

I love the key wells as well. I just used my Kinesis again and was like "ahhhhhhh" with those key wells, after using the TE. But it's a blessing and a curse, I don't know anybody (maybe there's an exception here) who can resist resting their palms on the rests while typing. Kinesis and Maltron tell you not to, Ergo people tell you not to, but nobody I've seen does it. I couldn't manage to not do it in 15 years, with the fingers tucked down into those bowls it's just too natural to rest the palms, which leads to problems. Compared to a flat design where it's just uncomfortable enough to prevent you, but the rests are there when thinking. Also the bowl design is less solid as you can't (well won't) have a metal plate under there. Not huge, but a solid design feels better.

The main advantage I'm seeing with the bowl is easier hand positioning, I'm having to re-learn automatic hand positioning with the flat design and it's not as easy as with the bowl. But the mind is good at that, which is why a pianist can move the hands precisely to a position a few feet away in three dimensional space, in the space of a fraction of a second.
TECK 209 Blank Keys; Leopold Number Pad; X-Keys Professional; X-Keys 84.

Offline Proword

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Why split keyboards?
« Reply #53 on: Mon, 23 January 2012, 07:37:59 »
Quote from: Architect;496674

I think I saw some post from you that you also are a programmer? If so what model do you suggest, both Mac and PC?


Not a programmer, no.  A court reporter.  Purely high speed text generation, with little or no navigation, but for hours on end at the speed of speech, with the usual recommended breaks.  

I once did a calculation that showed over a 30 day month with an 8 hour day, I was averaging 23 words per minute, with absolutely no stopping for anything.    These days I'm sort of retired, but still like to keep the mind and hands active.

As for recommending a model of keyboard,  since I've little experience with programming, I'd hesitate to make any firm statement (I also know next to nothing about using a Mac), although I do recall seeing a (photo of a) programmable  Maltron.  It was probably a "once-off" product, but you could perhaps contact Martin at Maltron Sales and see what they can come up with.

I rest my hands on the keyboard so much I've glued rubber pads there, but because of the size of my hands my fingers are able to extend right up to most of the function keys while still resting.  

I suspect that the "don't rest your hands"idea  is one which is really only applicable to the QWERTY layout, since there are so many gross movements of hands and arms, hurdling from bottom row to top and back etc, that one would be forever lifting and lowering one's hands and probably cause more problems than just "hovering" the hands.  It's something I notice that when I flick the switch on my Maltron and bring up the QWERTY layout (which I DON'T do very often) I have to hover, and getting back onto a flat QWERTY, my hands just about need a commercial jet pilot's licence to stay in the air.  However, the Maltron, both in its physical form and key distribution has pretty much reduced the majority of keystroking to simply bending and straightening the fingers, with little gross hand movement.

I've never considered using the central trackball on the Maltron, preferring to use the Logitech Trackball Marble.  I will sometimes have two computers operating simultaneously, so I have a trackball on either side of the keyboard, with each set for either left hand or right hand as required.  If I was doing work which required lots of "mouseing" on a single computer, I'd probably have them both plugged into the same computer (via USB) and use whichever hand was suitable.  But I've only done that very rarely.

When I was court reporting full-time, I had to get "dolled up to the nines", even wear a tie ... when I was actually in court, but other than that it was pretty much jeans and sneakers.  

But when I played music, it was in an Irish pub band ...



so different strokes for different folks.  

(Me playing mandolin, 12 string guitar and wooden flute.)

With regard to the lightweight nature of the keyboard, (on a different bulletin board?) it was suggested removing the bottom of the case and tape resin cored solder inside it to give it a bit of mass.  Although mine doesn't seem to move about much as it has pretty good rubber feet on the corners.!  (Plus I'm also resting my hands on the case, which helps keep it in place.)

Joe
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline Proword

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Why split keyboards?
« Reply #54 on: Mon, 23 January 2012, 07:45:54 »
Quote from: input nirvana;496675

It's 3 am, rainy/windy, a balmy 60 degrees F. I'm going a couple blocks to the beach to check it out! If I don't post ever again, well, you know...we all have our time :)

GO JOE!


Hmmm.  You never know when your luck may change, eh?  We were doing so well up until last week,  then in one day it was stinky-pooh hot (37 degrees Centigrade - roughly 100 degrees F) then half an inch of rain in an hour or so, and we have predictions of increasing daily temperatures until we reach Saturday, when we've got a forecast for 42 degrees C!!!!!  And that's for the city.  I'm in the Hills behind Perth where you can usually add about 3-4 degrees.  

I was hoping to go for a bicycle ride on Saturday, but there will be absolutely no GO JOE!!!  Stay inside Joe.  Wilt!!!  It's quarter to 10 on Mon night, and it's still 28.7 degrees C outside, and 27.2 at my desk.  Phew.

And no doubt there'll be some (more) bushfires starting up before then.

Joe (Helter swelter)
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline Architect

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Why split keyboards?
« Reply #55 on: Mon, 23 January 2012, 07:57:36 »
Quote from: Proword;496712
Not a programmer, no.  A court reporter.  Purely high speed text generation, with little or no navigation, but for hours on end at the speed of speech, with the usual recommended breaks.  

The needs of a programmer on the keyboard are unique. Probably the only application where every damn little key is needed, and especially the navigation. Most time is spent moving the insertion to some place in some big file and making changes. For this reason letter layout isn't particularly important as I and others have found out for this application. You're just not blasting words out all day, but words and especially modifier key combinations (i.e. Command-S) symbols and navigation commands. Importance in my estimation is

  • Navigation keys
  • Modifier keys (Shift, Command, Option, Control for mac, in two symmetric groups)
  • Bracket keys, [], {} and ()
  • Other symbols (usually on number row) and letters

This is why I FLIPPED OUT when the TrulyErgonomic was announced. I could have dual navigation blocks nearby, dual symmetric modifier blocks and a few extra keys to map the brackets to for dedicated keys. I've been rather excited which lead to some conspiracy theories as to my motivation, on this board. Oh well ... :)


Quote
I suspect that the "don't rest your hands"idea  is one which is really only applicable to the QWERTY layout, since there are so many gross movements of hands and arms, hurdling from bottom row to top and back etc, that one would be forever lifting and lowering one's hands and probably cause more problems than just "hovering" the hands.

Interesting theory, I can believe there is a difference between the layouts but I also firmly believe that it matters regardless. I play the piano and can do it all day without hurting my hands. In fact they feel great at the end of the day like they had a workout. Compared to a day of typing where there are aches and pains and RSI problems. Why? I believe it's due to the greater mobility of the piano. Our bodies evolved to move, and I think the evidence shows that the RSI problem is due to not enough movement, not too much. Of course this can be taken too far - don't use an extreme example to make a point here. You can play the piano too much, exercise too much, etc.

In ergonomics there is the idea that somehow there is an ideal or near ideal position we should be in and that we need to stay in that zone. I don't believe so, which is why I like to switch positions (sitting, standing and draft style), move around while typing (as much as possible), change chair positions, etc. It works for me and I believe the evidence supports this.

Now here's an idea, I've thought of using a MIDI piano keyboard as a regular keyboard. Programming would then be like improvisational composition. ControllerMate now supports MIDI input so I might try that for funzies.

Quote
But when I played music, it was in an Irish pub band ...

Neat, I'm a classical musician.

Quote
With regard to the lightweight nature of the keyboard, (on a different bulletin board?) it was suggested removing the bottom of the case and tape resin cored solder inside it to give it a bit of mass.
 

Good tip. I'm speaking particularly about the solidity of the keys when depressed. I'm very aware of this as a pianist, it's amazing how sensitive we are to minutia in the piano action, and also in the keyboard. Personally I prefer having keys mounted to a metal plate.
« Last Edit: Mon, 23 January 2012, 07:59:39 by Architect »
TECK 209 Blank Keys; Leopold Number Pad; X-Keys Professional; X-Keys 84.

Offline kps

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Why split keyboards?
« Reply #56 on: Mon, 23 January 2012, 08:57:07 »
Quote from: Architect;496720
Now here's an idea, I've thought of using a MIDI piano keyboard as a regular keyboard. Programming would then be like improvisational composition.


אֵין כָּל חָדָשׁ תַּחַת הַשָּׁמֶשׁ


Offline erw

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Why split keyboards?
« Reply #57 on: Mon, 23 January 2012, 09:55:25 »
Quote from: Architect;496720
This is why I FLIPPED OUT when the TrulyErgonomic was announced. I could have dual navigation blocks nearby


Some of us use editors where the navigation is under your fingers, not just nearby. Vim ftw :-)

Quote from: Architect;496720

Now here's an idea, I've thought of using a MIDI piano keyboard as a regular keyboard. Programming would then be like improvisational composition. ControllerMate now supports MIDI input so I might try that for funzies.


That sounds awesome. Be sure to post your progress :-)
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline Architect

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Why split keyboards?
« Reply #58 on: Mon, 23 January 2012, 10:03:28 »
Quote from: kps;496741
Nothing new under the sun[/URL]

I'm not aware of the Book of iPhone, or the Book of Genetics, or a million other things never dreamt of by our ancestors :) ...



Quote from: erw;496771
Some of us use editors where the navigation is under your fingers, not just nearby. Vim ftw :-)

Yeah, not always available unfortunately.

Quote
That sounds awesome. Be sure to post your progress :-)

Wow, what about the mapping? Center octave would be the letters they represent, just move up around there and then put the symbols in the bass? urrrrrrrr
TECK 209 Blank Keys; Leopold Number Pad; X-Keys Professional; X-Keys 84.

Offline erw

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Why split keyboards?
« Reply #59 on: Mon, 23 January 2012, 10:38:03 »
Quote from: Architect;496776
Wow, what about the mapping? Center octave would be the letters they represent, just move up around there and then put the symbols in the bass? urrrrrrrr


The same finger ratio should probably be kept down (as in Colemak). And rolls would be neat (as in Colemak). I don't know about hand alternation. It does not seem to be important for piano, at least. We need to know what the good parts of playing piano is so as not to optimize them away. But I don't think optimizing like this defeats the purpose since you'd still have to move around more because there is only one dimension where computer keyboards have two (well, kinda...)

Maybe also some chording?
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline Architect

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Why split keyboards?
« Reply #60 on: Mon, 23 January 2012, 10:45:47 »
Multiple simultaneous notes could be modifier keys. Would you want fixed modifiers? Notes a third off are always the main modifier (control or command) and a minor third are Alt/option? My heads exploding.
TECK 209 Blank Keys; Leopold Number Pad; X-Keys Professional; X-Keys 84.

Offline kps

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Why split keyboards?
« Reply #61 on: Mon, 23 January 2012, 11:30:11 »
Quote from: Architect;496776
I'm not aware of the Book of iPhone, or the Book of Genetics, or a million other things never dreamt of by our ancestors :) ...

Wait, isn't the Book of Genetics the first one, that talks about where all the different species came from?
 
Anyway, I could only find one horizontally split keyboard:



You could fit a trackpoint in between, I guess.

Offline sordna

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Why split keyboards?
« Reply #62 on: Mon, 23 January 2012, 12:50:00 »
Quote from: input nirvana;496660
Pointing devices are always an issue, period. They need to be integrated, period. (see my sig, lol). The only keyboards with integrated pointing devices are Datahand (in the switches), my Split Kinesis (trackpoint), Alphagrip (thumb trackball), and IBMs (trackpoint) (am I leaving somebody out?).


You left out the BEST integrated pointing device in a keyboard: The one on the Fingerworks Touchstream. Nothing can match it.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline boli

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Why split keyboards?
« Reply #63 on: Mon, 23 January 2012, 12:51:51 »
Quote from: input nirvana;496660
Pointing devices are always an issue, period. They need to be integrated, period. (see my sig, lol). The only keyboards with integrated pointing devices are Datahand (in the switches), my Split Kinesis (trackpoint), Alphagrip (thumb trackball), and IBMs (trackpoint) (am I leaving somebody out?).


I assume you know about stuff like the rollermouse? We had ergo counseling at our company last year, and while I was disappointed how little they talked about keyboards ;) I did like the idea of the rollermouse. I haven't tried it with the Kinesis because it wouldn't fit properly, but with a flat keyboard I'm told it works pretty well; a few people at work actually do use one now.

Quote from: Architect;496776
Quote from: erw;496771

Some of us use editors where the navigation is under your fingers, not just nearby. Vim ftw :-)

Yeah, not always available unfortunately.


Vim like navigation is still pretty nice two rows down. ;)
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Architect

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Why split keyboards?
« Reply #64 on: Mon, 23 January 2012, 13:05:40 »
Nothing beats the Apple trackpad and mouse in my book, the gestures are what really make it. However the real solution is to use the keyboard as much as possible as I do - "don't use the mouse when a four finger shortcut exists!"
TECK 209 Blank Keys; Leopold Number Pad; X-Keys Professional; X-Keys 84.

Offline sordna

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Why split keyboards?
« Reply #65 on: Mon, 23 January 2012, 13:30:07 »
Quote from: Architect;496915
Nothing beats the Apple trackpad and mouse in my book, the gestures are what really make it. However the real solution is to use the keyboard as much as possible as I do - "don't use the mouse when a four finger shortcut exists!"

Architect, not sure if you are aware that Apple bought Fingerworks for their touch / gesture technology and patents many years ago. Sadly, their devices only make use of a tiny fraction of the awesome gestures, customization, and capabilities of the Fingerworks products. Apple is *slowly* adding those features to their new devices and folks oooh and aaah about them, when all of them and much more were available in the Fingerworks Touchstream and iGesture products!

I encourage you to do some reading about Fingerworks products, download their manuals, etc. Your jaw will drop, like mine did when I discovered things like I could move the pointer by sliding my right hand on the keyboard, and move the text cursor by sliding my left hand, even in text terminals, and all that on any operating system, without any software or drivers!
Lots of resources here:

http://fingerfans.dreamhosters.com/
« Last Edit: Mon, 23 January 2012, 13:41:13 by sordna »
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Input Nirvana

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Why split keyboards?
« Reply #66 on: Mon, 23 January 2012, 13:34:13 »
Fingerworks Touchstream of course. They hit a home run with that. That's why Apple bought them :) Their iGesture is the Apple Magic Trackpads father.

I use Rollermouse Free 2 with my Kinesis. I only use Rollermouse, Apple Magic Trackpad, or huge trackballs like the Kensington Expert Mouse. Gestures rock, the only thing the uber awesome Rollermouse doesn't do.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
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Offline boli

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Why split keyboards?
« Reply #67 on: Mon, 23 January 2012, 14:23:51 »
Quote from: input nirvana;496937
I use Rollermouse Free 2 with my Kinesis.

Cool, any pics and/or experiences? Desktop or laptop version? (asking because desktop includes wrist rests which aren't necessary with a Kinesis Advantage)
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

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Why split keyboards?
« Reply #68 on: Mon, 23 January 2012, 17:00:08 »
Rollermouse is an absolutely incredible mousing device. People are put off by the price tag. On the forums, I've made a few challenges and several GH now will not part with their Rollermouse. :) Ricercar uses his with a Kinesis like I do, as a few others. It is different than with a flat board, but still just as superior. Contour Designs has a trial period just like Kinesis does, that's how confident they are. 4 people that have stayed with me when on vacation have gone home and purchased Rollermouse after using mine for a week :) Although it's plug and play and needs no drivers, the software that's available lets you configure it to the ultimate detail. I can't find a way to improve it.

Personally, I have always liked touchpads first and then large trackballs like the Expert Mouse Pro (because of all the extra buttons), and Kensington has the great Mouseworks software. Then came Rollermouse and raised the bar. Wow. Obviously it's very personal preference, but everyone owes it to themselves to try it at least for the experience.

I use these two together, Rollermouse Free 2 and Apple Magic Trackpad, because gestures are so rad.

Sadly, my Kensington Expert Mouse Pro doesn't get much use, and not because it's not great.

There are some pics of Kinesis/Rollermouse combos on the forum, and I scrapped a 'concept' pic at the very bottom of the Split Kinesis Mod article in my sig.

The wrist rest is good too, I use it on the desk, not on my lap.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
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Offline Lanx

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Why split keyboards?
« Reply #69 on: Mon, 23 January 2012, 17:11:09 »
i really cannot wait until touch screen both the technology and operating system become viable for office/home use. maybe windows 8 will change this for real, but there is such a HUGE difference in the "touch" experience i have a netbook with a touch screen interface, and that runs so pathetic compared to an ipad, whereas the ipad was built from the ground up with touch, whereas the netbook just tacked on touchscreen sensing and a bit of software.

then all we'd need is a keyboard, a mouse for precision and i guess a tablet for the art ppl.
(maybe that nob controller thing for movie/music ppl).

Offline Proword

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Why split keyboards?
« Reply #70 on: Mon, 23 January 2012, 19:30:27 »
The Maltron programmer's kybd from April last year on this thread

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?17415-Maltron-Programmers-K-B-L89P



Joe
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline Input Nirvana

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Why split keyboards?
« Reply #71 on: Mon, 23 January 2012, 23:00:09 »
I remember that thread, Joe, you did some good stuff with the photos and measurements. Then Sordna talked me into attempting to 'tilt' the thumb clusters on the Kinesis to more closely approximate the Maltron angles. When I finally do all these things this spring/summer I'll report back, I know you just gotta know how THAT performs....  

Pebbly black lizard texture....
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Things change, things stay the same                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline Proword

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Why split keyboards?
« Reply #72 on: Mon, 23 January 2012, 23:14:59 »
Quote from: input nirvana;497320
 

Pebbly black lizard texture....





;-)

Joe
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline Input Nirvana

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Why split keyboards?
« Reply #73 on: Tue, 24 January 2012, 03:37:19 »
Quote from: Proword;497330
Show Image


;-)

Joe
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 38390[/ATTACH]

:0)
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Things change, things stay the same                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~