How do you feel about one-run only "limited edition" sets?

[Oobly]

Hi all,

I own a number of sets like this, where the designer has specified that the design will not be run again (or at least in the same profile) and a number of sets that have had "extras" made or had a 2nd run. Examples are Penumbra, PuLSE, Retro SA for "limited" sets and Black on Black PBT and Jukebox for extras/rerun sets.

On the one hand, being limited generally creates a higher perceived value for the set. It's limited therefore it's rare and therefore valuable. Like any product that has a special, limited edition run. On the other hand, it could be perceived as being "artificially" rare, since there's nothing standing in the way of making more. However, again the same applies to any limited edition product and on top of that, most first runs of a set are "open" in terms of numbers of orders, so the number actually manufactured depends on how many are ordered. If you want one and order within the time window, you get one. They're not really "limited" in that sense.

Also, often the first run includes extra costs such as legend cutting / font creation, etc, which the subsequent runs don't have, so the cost usually is lower second time round. As a purchaser of the first run, is it irritating that people who didn't participate in the IC, didn't have to wait for the GB, didn't have to go through the frustration and hassle of incorrect legends / wrong caps, production delays, etc. get to have the same set as you for less than you paid?

For more popular designs, like Penumbra, the "limited" status can be frustrating for those who really want the set and missed the run, although if there were enough initial orders, they will pop up every now and then in classifieds or the mechmarket.

In order to retain the "special" value, but still have the basic design available to everyone, what do you think of the idea of a "first run only" novelties / specialties kit that only gets produced for the first run, but the base and all other kits get included in extras / subsequent runs. Would that satisfy you if you were to put yourself in the shoes of both groups of people, those who get the first run and those who want it afterwards? Only those who participate in the first run get the special caps, but those who come after can still get the main set and support kits.

Thoughts?

-Oobly

[Dernubenfrieken]

In order to retain the "special" value, but still have the basic design available to everyone, what do you think of the idea of a "first run only" novelties / specialties kit that only gets produced for the first run, but the base and all other kits get included in extras / subsequent runs.

I really like this idea and think it would be a good compromise for enthusiasts, collectors and creators. A good example would be skull squadron, a fairly simple colorway which isn't approached much. I love the set, I'd really love another run, but I really don't care about the macrosse connection or the novelties. A novelty-less repress would be perfect in my eyes.

[SpAmRaY]

From my viewpoint some sets aren't ran again simply because that organizer wants to move on to other sets they have planned.

If SP wants to remake some sets that have been popular I don't see why they can't connect with those who ran it before and work something out that would benefit them both.

To me it gets a little murky though when thinking  about sets showing up for sale in classifieds in the future as people may get confused as to what they have or what they're buying when you have multiple variations on a set.

[bubbedi]

I like the idea. Having something special could satisfy the round one buyers, sort of a reward to those who chip in that extra dough and show support.

(off topic i guess)
Personally, I do not get why people are that frustrated about a set not being reproduced, since so many new (and really awesome) sets are happening all the time. And don't get me wrong, ever since i laid eyes on Penumbra i was ready to kill/rape even the youngest of our civilization - just to own it. This was a joke, of course.
I believe I was one of those who even contributed to the Penumbra thread with nothing but a request for another round.
BUT SUDDENLY, i have SA (TRUE!) Retro, and found myself in the group of those lucky few who participated and scored. And now look what happens. people already asks for round 2 retro, this time, to my amusement!

[keshley]

It would certainly be less cost prohibitive if reruns of the base sets were done. That said, would the same appreciation be had if all sets were easily attained?

Maybe my opinion is a little skewed since, thanks to Mr SpAmRaY, I already have (a plethora of) my favorite keycap set. And there's always great keysets coming out.

If there's a particular set someone is looking for, it'll eventually show up in the classifieds. A little patience never hurt anyone. I'm still waiting on a few things to show up in the classifieds, as a lot of stuff, not just keycaps, aren't made anymore. Which means when they finally do pop up, there'll be a level of excitement that just wouldn't be there if I could just go to Amazon and pick it up whenever I wanted.

I'd say the only thing I don't like about limited run sets is how high the resale value can be for some of them. For some of those sets, its a seller's market, and I've seen lots of sales that I would never consider, no matter how rare that set is.

The more I think about it, the more its kind of like the Artisan market. I think if we look at all the opinions about Artisan keycaps, they can all be applied to limited run keysets. Not to the same extreme; the markups on Clacks, for example, is way higher than a markup on a limited run keyset will ever be. However, while the reasons may be different (only so many Artisan caps can be made, vs choosing to run a keyset once), the principals are the same; the number of interested parties exceeds the number of available items.

[ideus]

The limited edition is at the discretion of the designer and/or the manufacturer in some cases. If a person wants to keep a particular design limited when he owns and have rights over the intellectual property, consumers do not have to do anything in that decision. Besides, the few limited edition buys I got in, were sold at regular prices in their time, so I do not see any reason to try to make rules over the people that get involve in key sets designs, we should honor they willingness to proceed as they want. If the community support artisans on how they want to produce and market their designs that are normally more expensive, we should treat the same a set designer that wants to make his design special, preventing future production runs.

[ConscienceDrop]

Up to the designer tbh.

The size of a run is part of the aesthetic of a set.

[Lepidus]

Ok, I guess.

The good part it that it opens space for new sets. I mean, if you browse IC forum righ now there are tons of great projects, but all of them reporting more or less the same issue: Every cap manufacturer avalible is flooded with requests.

As much as I like many sets out there, I would rather get new designed ones.

[raymogi]

I like limited stuff. It makes them more desirable and there's always something to look forward (aim) to.

Imagine if stuff like Penumbra keeps getting rereleased. Will completely get rid of the thrill of the hunt.

[SpAmRaY]

Another thought, if people assume something will be reproduced later it can be hard to reach initial MOQ.

[Lepidus]

Another thought, if people assume something will be reproduced later it can be hard to reach initial MOQ.

This.
Specially with SP selling reruns way cheaper than original set.

[baldgye]

I think it's kinda strange and odd that the 'designer' keeps all the rights to the set when they are basically publicly funded and then produced by another company. It's the one thing I really don't think is all that great about GB's as the person who comes up with the colour scheme (lets be real that's all it is most of the time) shouldn't (IMO) have exclusive rights to that colour scheme...

I don't think limited run sets are a bad thing per-say, but I think popular sets that sell for 3-4x the original price should be re-run as clearly the community wants more of those sets and GB's are in there very nature community funded projects.
IMO sets like Penumbria(?) and that other one 'designed' by that Brazillian chap that go for $300-400 is wrong and the only people your screwing are the same people you want to then fund your next 'design'...



I like how Miami was done, one run a year with improvements... idk if it will be done again next year, but if it was highly demanded like other more popular sets, I don't see why it shouldn't be.

[MeltingTeeth]

My observation:

The designers with the biggest egos have the smallest runs.

[malaik0]

for me limited stuff dont have any sense... this thing "I like a thing because my neighbor dont have or cant have" its so so .... its better not say 

if you like you like endpoint 

favoring who helped the GB yes yes yes, you are absolutely right, design rights? lol rights of colour scheme? really? ok next... i know that its ward and they lost a lot of time but  its only colour scheme :/

[aznairjordan]

I like the idea of having limited production runs for sets. It provides a reason for people to support group buys and help them reach moq. It also adds a collector value to it due only a limited number of sets in the world.  The way that I see it is that Jordan shoe collectors buy the limited releases for the shoe and probably wouldn't be too happy if the very first release on the year just had different colored laces and would be continually produced until everyone that wanted one had one.

I believe that if you really wanted a set, you would get the chance to obtain it either by paying a lot of money or by patiently waiting. Pulse was my dream set but I was too late getting into the world of keyboards. I spent months looking at the photos of other people's boards, refreshing classifieds and mechmarket every 5 minutes and finally found a set here on gh, which I promptly got rid of as I didn't feel as magical when it was actually sitting on my desk. I am never doing all that again for a set but it worked. In my opinion, Most of the people I see asking for reruns got in to keyboards too late but aren't putting in the effort to try and get what they want.

I'm not going to argue about who has rights to the colors or the design itself because I have no knowledge about that kind of stuff.

[Infrared]

I only like them if I have the chance to get a set of the LE keycaps. Other than that they just make me jealous and salty.

[Waateva]

The limited edition is at the discretion of the designer and/or the manufacturer in some cases. If a person wants to keep a particular design limited when he owns and have rights over the intellectual property, consumers do not have to do anything in that decision. Besides, the few limited edition buys I got in, were sold at regular prices in their time, so I do not see any reason to try to make rules over the people that get involve in key sets designs, we should honor they willingness to proceed as they want. If the community support artisans on how they want to produce and market their designs that are normally more expensive, we should treat the same a set designer that wants to make his design special, preventing future production runs.

I agree completely, it doesn't seem right to hold set designers and artisan designers to a different standard.  That said, I like the idea of offering something special in the first run to encourage people to meet the initial MOQ, which would also take care of the issue of a lack of interest in the initial MOQ if it could be redone at a later date.  This allows the people who get into the first, and maybe only, run of the set to have something "special" to differentiate from later runs, if the designer decides to do one.

[Dernubenfrieken]

I like the idea. Having something special could satisfy the round one buyers, sort of a reward to those who chip in that extra dough and show support.

(off topic i guess)
Personally, I do not get why people are that frustrated about a set not being reproduced, since so many new (and really awesome) sets are happening all the time. And don't get me wrong, ever since i laid eyes on Penumbra i was ready to kill/rape even the youngest of our civilization - just to own it. This was a joke, of course.
I believe I was one of those who even contributed to the Penumbra thread with nothing but a request for another round.
BUT SUDDENLY, i have SA (TRUE!) Retro, and found myself in the group of those lucky few who participated and scored. And now look what happens. people already asks for round 2 retro, this time, to my amusement!

For me its about color scheme and fit with my room/desk. Almost all of the recently run group buys would clash with the color pallet of my room. Also if you have a bunch of artisans/novelties that fit with a certain set it can also be frustrating.

[zslane]

I don't know if community consensus is possible on this subject.

I am not a collector. I don't like the idea of creating a collector-oriented artificial rarity for things which have a high degree of practical functionality (i.e., it doesn't just hang on a wall and appreciate in value). I really couldn't care less how valuable a "limited edition" set is to the collector market; if I like a set and want to be typing on a keyboard with it, then I'm going to want to buy it.

Thanks to the GB system being what it is, I missed out on many nice sets because I wasn't even aware of all this prior to July. Designers that say "never again" really turn me off, no matter how talented they are. They certainly have the right to do that, but they don't have to do that, and I'm not a fan of those who do.

Take, for example, the two DSA sets I have. Obtaining Granite was an intensely irritating process that required piecing together what I needed from at least four individuals from all over Europe and the US. Obtaining my Dolch DSA sets, on the other hand, couldn't have been easier: I went to the PMK webstore and just ordered them. A few days later I had Dolch on my boards. That's how it should be. Of course, I am aware that Dolch was only available because a GB went sour and SP was stuck with inventory. In a sense I got lucky, but I shouldn't have had to be "lucky" with my timing just to get a keycap set.

Philosophically I am opposed to sets that are made limited edition just for the sake of making buyers feel "special". On a purely practical level, I don't care if artisans and novelty keys are made limited-run because I have zero interest in those. But I would appreciate at least base kits and numpad kits being made widely available, with multiple runs as necessary, as a general rule.

[ideus]

I don't know if community consensus is possible on this subject.

I am not a collector. I don't like the idea of creating a collector-oriented artificial rarity for things which have a high degree of practical functionality (i.e., it doesn't just hang on a wall and appreciate in value). I really couldn't care less how valuable a "limited edition" set is to the collector market; if I like a set and want to be typing on a keyboard with it, then I'm going to want to buy it.

Thanks to the GB system being what it is, I missed out on many nice sets because I wasn't even aware of all this prior to July. Designers that say "never again" really turn me off, no matter how talented they are. They certainly have the right to do that, but they don't have to do that, and I'm not a fan of those who do.

Take, for example, the two DSA sets I have. Obtaining Granite was an intensely irritating process that required piecing together what I needed from at least four individuals from all over Europe and the US. Obtaining my Dolch DSA sets, on the other hand, couldn't have been easier: I went to the PMK webstore and just ordered them. A few days later I had Dolch on my boards. That's how it should be. Of course, I am aware that Dolch was only available because a GB went sour and SP was stuck with inventory. In a sense I got lucky, but I shouldn't have had to be "lucky" with my timing just to get a keycap set.

Philosophically I am opposed to sets that are made limited edition just for the sake of making buyers feel "special". On a purely practical level, I don't care if artisans and novelty keys are made limited-run because I have zero interest in those. But I would appreciate at least base kits and numpad kits being made widely available, with multiple runs as necessary, as a general rule.

I agree in general with what you have written; however, you agree with artisans making their stuff special, but you do not want a set designer keep his work being limited? That does not make sense.

[Waateva]

Philosophically I am opposed to sets that are made limited edition just for the sake of making buyers feel "special". On a purely practical level, I don't care if artisans and novelty keys are made limited-run because I have zero interest in those. But I would appreciate at least base kits and numpad kits being made widely available, with multiple runs as necessary, as a general rule.

So, if someone cares little for keysets but cares greatly for artisans, would you support them holding an opinion contrary to yours?  I don't see how you can support limited-run artisans but not limited-run keysets, based solely on personal preference of artisans or keysets.

[zslane]

I don't like sets being limited run as a general principle. However, if forced to compromise on the matter, I would willingly relinquish artisans and novelties to the collectors because I don't really care about that sub-category of caps.

[Waateva]

I don't like sets being limited run as a general principle. However, if forced to compromise on the matter, I would willingly relinquish artisans and novelties to the collectors because I don't really care about that sub-category of caps.

Okay, that makes a little more sense.

[zslane]

Artisans are a market unto themselves. Since I don't really have any interest in artisans, I don't have any stake in their availability.

My feelings are basically the same for novelty keycaps, but since novelties are usually part of a larger keyset, I would prefer to see keysets with novelties put base kits and such into a pool of wider availability while putting the novelty keycaps into their own kits with their own supply dynamics. I think it would simply be a matter of the GB organizer ordering, say, only 25 novelty kits while ordering however many hundreds of the regular kits satisfy general demand.

I believe Oobly mentioned just such an approach.

[neverused]

I personally think that limiting a run based on designer preference is retarded (look it up, it means stunted).  Just because someone has the passion to fill in some color blocks and arrange a design they enjoy, does not preclude them from relinquishing that design to the community or manufacturer.  Once a design is introduced, it should be fair game for anyone to produce.  Let the market decide if a re-run is viable, not the designer. 

If I want to commission a company to produce Skull Squadron again, what is to prevent me from doing so?  (I won't, also not calling out matt3o, it is just the most recent reference that I saw in the thread)  It is not an exclusive colorway and if anyone that feels that mixing a color pallet allows them to dictate the use of that some combination is a fool.  The exception to this would be symbols, these could be trademarks/copywritten, etc.  However, beyond that, it is an extremely egotistic thing to simply mix colors and allow the community to fund production, but insist on control of the design.  I'm saying anyone in particular has done this, but it is foolish to expect exclusivity.  If someone doesn't like the use of their color mixture, then they can either produce the product themselves and market them, or not design anything for the public.  Or find some way to control the color mix as intellectual property.

[demik]

Limiting sets is ****ing stupid

[Oobly]

Very interesting opinions, many similar to my own, but some of them very different, which is great to read. Thank you for posting.

I would like to add in my opinion about set designs vs colour schemes, though: A set design is not just a colour scheme. A set design includes the keycap profile, the font choice, the material, the finish, custom legends and novelties, etc.

Perhaps I should put it another way. A colour scheme by definition cannot include things such as font choice, keycap profile, material or finish, legend designs, kit layout choices, etc. Those are what make it a "design". In fact, even the placements and orders of the colours on specific caps go beyond what a colour scheme is and puts it into design territory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_scheme

A good designer involves the community and a good design takes hard work and dedication. I'm not saying all the designs out there are good, or that there aren't some that are essentially just a colour scheme, but the most desired ones are usually much more than that, IMHO. They're a cohesive "whole" that would not be the same (or as desirable) with any component altered, and if a designer designs a truly desirable set, he's done something more than throwing a few colours at a keyboard mockup.

I'm very interested in your opinion on this, too, since I think this is a key point that helps determine how much you value a particular set and why. Every set I've chosen to buy / participate in the GB is worth more to me than what I paid. There's an emotional and sentimental value on top, particularly if I had some involvement in the IC thread or one of my ideas or suggestions made it into the final design somehow.

I do think a number of designers would feel their "baby" is somehow cheapened if just the base sets without ANY novelties is sold and that what's then being sold is not really their design, then it really does become almost "just a colour scheme". Also, IMHO, most people who order / buy a set don't just want a nice set of colours, but have some interest in the set inspiration and the designer's interpretation of it, too.

I guess some people really do just buy sets for the colours, but I think most custom / group buy sets are too expensive to be just that and there needs to be some added value of some sort to justify it.

There's nothing to stop someone ordering a set from WASD for example in whatever colours they like at a much lower price and most designers won't mind if they order one in the colours of one of their designs.

To put it another way: What do you think gives your favourite set the value it has to you?

[zslane]

I think the WASD comparison is a poor one. Their color choices are too limited and they only have one profile and finish. You're never going to get a keycap set from them that is remotely comparable to anything run through SP, particularly if we're talking about spherical sets. WASD keys may be made of ABS, but that's where the similarities end.

Of all the elements that go into a keyset, the only element I consider driven by anything resembling "artistic creativity" are custom legends. Sure, good color selection is an element of good design, but hardly something that requires hard work or "dedication". And when it comes to font choices, well, if we're talking about double-shot caps from SP, you don't really have much artistic leeway there. Profiles are a cross between ergonomics and personal preference; it doesn't take a design expert to realize that there are only two or three decent SA row profiles to select from (and with DSA there is no profile consideration). And kit composition is merely an exercise in logistics thanks to issues of MOQ.

However, coming up with themed novelties is an art. They are special. I would never dispute that. However, I don't feel that simply mimicing some old vintage keyboard's "RUB OUT" legend constitutes an artistically creative novelty. 7bit has gone to a lot of trouble to recreate the Space Cadet legends, and I am eternally grateful to him for it, but all he did was copy someone else's "design" (Tom Knight's to be specific), so maybe Mr. Knight ought to be in control over the availability of HONEYB/TKLBASE/CADET and not 7bit.

I have poured a lot of $$$ into Round 5a. I love the Honeywell colorway and have little use for any "special" keycaps from that GB. I love the Space Cadet design and it will have pride of place on my desktop someday, but I would never want to see it fall into "limited run" status. I would want the whole world to have Space Cadet if they wanted it. What sort of asshat would I be if I endorsed a plan to withhold it from the general public just so I could feel like I belonged to some exclusive ownership club?

I think Granite is the only keycap set I have in which the extra work that went into its unique legends makes it a true work of art. I speak, of course, of the icon mods. The choice of colors and the choice of Gotham Rounded Book were good choices, but not the most important to making that set anything "special", at least not in my eyes. In that sense it's just a grey-on-grey colorway with a readable typeface, and nothing more. I know Muirium would be howling in protest over such an assessment because he is obsessed with typefaces, but to the average keycap enthusiast Granite's typeface is nice and readable but hardly worth all the debate that went into its selection. It is the icon mods that truly set Granite apart.

But I don't need or want every keycap set I buy to be like Granite. I'm glad there is Honeywell, where it is all about vintage-inspired, elegant simplicity. And quite frankly, anyone could have come up with HONEY. That wasn't hard work, it was merely time-consuming. And mostly because 7bit likes to make sure everyone gets their pet caps and so the kits just keep growing and growing. This notion that keyset design is like painting the Cistine Chapel is rather pushing it.

[Oobly]

Well, 7bit is a little different, isn't he

Let's take another interesting example: GMK Dolch. Dolch is a colourway, like a color scheme, but with a bit more organisation. Ivan's GMK Dolch is a recognisable "design", though, since it has certain features that set it apart from every other Dolch set like DSA Dolch (such as the colour pack and choice of legends or text on the mods, not to mention the profile and font differences), despite the fact that it has no actual custom legends. I'm not comparing Ivan to Michelangelo, though.

On the other hand, his current IC for Jelly POM sets is really just an IC for something the manufacturer will provide, most likely without even a particular colour choice, just blank white POM caps. There's really no design there at all and he's just providing the service of organising the GB so we can get them at a good price.

7bit's Round 5 is somewhere in between.

However.... Even Round 5 is a "limited" run, as are all of 7bit's GBs. I can't order Round 4 Sphericals any more, can I? From the Round 5 page on DT wiki: "Whenever SP starts production (early March), there will be a limited number of kits available, until they are sold out! "

In one sense, all GB sets are limited editions as they always get made in batches. A set can be run a number of times, but of course the demand will reduce with every run since most will have got in on the first run (unless it was poorly marketed, but proved VERY popular).

My personal experience about sets I participated in the IC's on and had a second run lead me to the conclusion that I prefer sets to have just one run. Ivan's black on black started off as an IC for blank black PBT which is when I joined in. Dyesub options were added. Then there was some back and forth choosing the colours to use so the dyesub legends would be visible, but the base plastic still dark enough to be called black. When it looked like we might not meet MOQ, I ponied up and ordered 4 sets. Then there were problems with the first batches of plastic, then problems with the production schedule, but eventually we got our caps made and delivered. Yay! 

Then Ivan did a second run of them. I felt a bit cheated, to be honest. I invested time, stress, suggestions, feedback, ordered more than I needed to help get them done, waited a year to receive them and then... you could order exactly the same thing at a cheaper price for round 2 and get it sooner. Not only did the financial value of the sets I bought drop way below what I paid, but the emotional and sentimental value attached lessened considerably. Doesn't change the fact that they're great caps and I'm happy more people have the opportunity to buy them, but it still felt.... wrong, somehow. And I doubt there's going to be enough interest for a 3rd run to meet MOQ. Demand for that set is not high any more, as supply has outstripped it.

Somehow I'm okay with Jukebox for now. Probably because the overproduction that's now available on PMK is part of the same initial run? More likely that I feel it didn't get as many orders as it deserved, so the new sets are going to "late original buyers" or something like that.

You can't begrudge someone feeling a set is more valuable if they have invested in it emotionally. I have yet to sell any of my sets, though, only traded ones that had less total perceived value to me for ones with more. This is a personal thing and both parties feel they're doing the same thing, trading something they want less for something they want more. The value of a set is not just financial.

Having just one run and making sure people know it will only be a single run does a few things:
1. Increases demand which helps meet MOQ's since people know they won't have another opportunity to get the set.
2. Ensures that the majority who want the set get it due to the way GB's work.
3. Helps maintain the perceived value of the sets that are produced, which is important to some who participated and is a bit like "giving back" to them by the designer, thanking them for their support of his design.

Please note I'm not talking about the financial value here, just personal "perceived value". IMO, having limited edition sets creates real personal value for the buyers, not just the "collectors", but all buyers. It's nice to be typing on a "limited edition" set, it's just that little bit more special somehow. In the case if keycap sets, it's not really "exclusivity" (since anyone could have ordered their own set at GB time), but rather a marker of a particular moment in a community. If you missed that moment, it's okay to feel a bit left out, but don't worry. New set designs are coming along all the time and it won't take long to find a set that really "resonates" with you.

TLDR: Community designed keycap sets are special. Single run sets retain that "specialness" more than "mass market" or rerun ones and mark a particular time in the community. This is not traditional "exclusivity", but rather time-based "inclusivity" if that makes sense. Community designed sets are not, and should not be mass-produced and mass-market products, IMO.

[swimmingbird]

I think that it should be left in the hands of the designer of the keyset.

Dolch is obviously kind of like public domain at this point so I would expect it to be run fairly often or available through retail but something like Hyperfuse or Hack'd by Geeks I think should probably stay one offs

[Floody]

I don't really have a problem with them although I can understand where you are coming from about the whole artificial scarcity. I do think that some people only want some sets because they can't have them and maybe would not buy them were they widely available. I do have a problem with creators running a set and advertising it as limited only to realize release this. I'm not saying I've seen this happened in a set but have seen it happen with other collectibles. Although I can understand why these artist do it as some of them devote all of their time into their craft, it still seems scummy to sell something on a promise and then renege. They are basically lying to their small market of their very niche product.
It sucks not being able to get a product because you weren't in the scene when it was released but usually if you stick around long enough you too can get something worthwhile and trade for what you've always wanted.

[Pwner]

I think that it should be left in the hands of the designer of the keyset.

I agree. 

The only thing that kind of bothers me is the sets that were limited and end up selling for insanely high prices in the classifieds.  Mainly because of how late I joined the r/mk and GH communities so I've missed out on some amazing sets that I'll probably never own.   )

[ideus]

I think that it should be left in the hands of the designer of the keyset.

I agree. 

The only thing that kind of bothers me is the sets that were limited and end up selling for insanely high prices in the classifieds.  Mainly because of how late I joined the r/mk and GH communities so I've missed out on some amazing sets that I'll probably never own.   )

Worry not, more sets are coming. You joined in a very good time, a couple of years ago, GMK was even not considered for GB runs until Ivan got them to reduce the MoQ and suddently GMK made sets turned into an option, so you are here in a golden age, so just be patient.

[MeltingTeeth]

I think that it should be left in the hands of the designer of the keyset.

I agree. 

The only thing that kind of bothers me is the sets that were limited and end up selling for insanely high prices in the classifieds.  Mainly because of how late I joined the r/mk and GH communities so I've missed out on some amazing sets that I'll probably never own.   )

Remember, it could always be worse.  Think of us Topre lovers!

[GenKaan]

I think not running sales or remaking the sets opens up the market to new designs and have no real drawbacks. Not only that but encouraging trading, once you no longer use your set you can trade it with someone else who has a different limited set.

Really dont see a downside to making limited runs. Almost everything today is mass produced and trying to be as "vanilla" as possible. That said there is nothing wrong with "vanilla" but big companies already cover that segment. Like a OEM profile white caps with black font or vice versa, that will forever be the main choice for the majority. Having something like one of my favorite sets (Deep Space) limited makes me feel like my Ducky Shine 3 (mass produced) is special, something not a lot of people have.

I doubt there will come a set I like more than that, unless someone makes a PBT SA profile Deep Space set. Something I highly doubt but is possible.

Ultimately I agree with the majority in this thread that its up to the designer, but I think it should be made clear if its going to be reproduced and sold.

[Dee1]

I think that limiting sets--or at least the color scheme of a set--just so that you can have a "special" feeling about it is kind of dumb. For one thing, the whole "it should be limited so I can feel special about owning something others don't" mindset is kind of ...well, I can't articulate it well, but it's kind of weird! For another, it's just a color scheme, in my opinion, and it doesn't really make sense to me that once someone puts together a group of colors that they "own" that particular grouping of colors. What's worse is some people here jump on others who they perceive to be copying another set, whether they did so intentionally or not. Personally, that doesn't make sense to me. You can't own a color scheme IMO, and that sort of entitlement to ownership is even worse when you consider that the community had to fund it just so you could make and get the set you wanted!

Anyway, I'm sorry if that rubs anyone the wrong way but that's how I really feel about it.

I think the idea of keeping novelty sets or extras and such limited to a first run make sense since more work goes into those (new molds and icon designs, etc) and especially since it requires a leap of faith to go into a new group buy. I think that the people in the first-run group should definitely be rewarded for believing in the GB and making the set exist at all, and making these extras limited to them is a good way to do it.

There's also the fact that meeting or not meeting MOQ is what makes or breaks a set; those extras help us meet it because some people will buy the set just to get the extras. However after that initial run has been established and the set has proven to be a success, then limiting production for the tenkey+numpad keys or disallowing others to use the color scheme is something I see little reason for.

Well, anyway, set designers will keep doing what they want, and I will still keep participating in their (limited run) group buys if I like the set.

[ideus]

LE editions matter to collectors, for users their importance is far less.

[Niomosy]

I've mentioned my thoughts on this before.  I'm not in favor of single run sets and, more so, I don't believe that such a thing as a single run exists so long as someone else is willing to run with the colorway (possibly minus the novelties to avoid legal issues). 


Novelties, though, are dependent on what the novelty key is.  I would think certain sets that replicate older keyboards and typewriters with their text-based novelties make sense to re-run.  Outside that, the caps may well fall under protection and the designer can chose what to do with those.

There are caveats to using novelties though.  If the novelties are double shot, you would likely need permission to use the existing molds.  Otherwise you're going to have to have new ones cut.  It might not be an issue as it could open up existing sets to new novelty interpretations which might be fascinating in and of itself.

A subsequent run done on a popular set minus protected novelties should suffice for anyone that wants the set but missed out.  It's definitely a reasonable compromise.

[zslane]

I think ideus nailed the core of the issue for me.

I'm a user, not a collector, and my feelings on the matter are entirely driven by that distinction.

I've been in this position before, in other spheres of interest, where I wanted something purely for its utility (and quality), not for its collectibility, but was subject to the availability and market forces created by its collectible status. For something that is intrinsically functional in nature, this is supremely frustrating. Especially when we're talking about something that is easily produced by machines and not subject to source material limitations or the manufacturing constraints of being hand-made. Collectors may want to artificially restrict production and trade to stroke their emotional attachment to things, but that just strikes me as selfish.

Keycap sets aren't really "limited run" just because they are driven by diminishing demand over time. In reality, they are simply make-on-demand products with a cumbersome marketing and sales mechanism. In theory, a keycap set could be run at any time. It would only be "limited edition" if a person stepped in and forbid production to artificially restrict availability. That's not a case of natural market forces driving production (i.e., making supply match demand, however limited that may be at any given time). That's manipulating a market to manipulate value. Doing that sort of thing to maintain a multi-billion-dollar diamond empire makes sense to me, even if I object to it on ethical grounds. Doing that sort of thing for custom keycaps just strikes me as bizarre.

Until keycaps are made from some rare, hard to find (or heavily regulated) material, or are hand-made one-by-one by a designer, I am not going to endorse the practice of restricting production and availability just so some small group of collectors can feel like they got in on something "special". By all means, be emotionally attached to your keycaps (I plan to be once I get Space Cadet on my Varmilo). But not at the expense of everyone else who would like them too.

[SpAmRaY]

I always thought sets weren't reproduced simply because there wasn't enough demand to reach MOQ after the initial group buy.

I understand there is a much wider audience now than a few years ago but surely many of us remember when it was difficult to get enough sets sold to start with to make the price practical.

[zslane]

I think it depends on the manufacturer. GMK is notorious for having MOQs that most GBs can't meet. There's really nothing even the most obliging designer can do about that.

SP, on the other hand, will make as little as one set of something, if you're wiling to pony up the funds to do it. MOQ isn't a hard threshold with them; it is a sliding scale that determines unit costs, nothing more. Therefore, if a set from SP doesn't get made it is because one of two things is getting in the way: either the designer is forbidding (or simply neglecting) subsequent runs, or the number of potential buyers doesn't yield a unit cost they are (collectively) willing to pay. The latter is simple market dynamics at work; the former is dubious motivations at work.

Oh, there is also the case where a designer or GB organizer just doesn't want to go to all the effort of organizing subsequent GBs. I can sympathize with that. But that's why we need a more webstore-like mechanism to take the place of GBs. This takes the burden of running a GB off the shoulders of community members with limited time/interest in re-visiting old sets.

[Oobly]

Another interesting statistic would be how many GB's each poster has participated in, from IC to having caps in hand and the correlation between their views and GB participation.

I've been in... quite a few. It'll actually take me a little while to work out the numbers, so I'll post my "stats" later.

Anyway, yes, a lot of sets have only run once simply because there isn't enough demand to support a second run at a reasonable price. Some designers just won't redo a set no matter the demand, though. I can think of at least 3 sets off the top of my head that would get at least 75% of the original number of orders in a second run, but most would not either meet MOQ or get enough orders to bring the price to a decent level.

Another very interesting statistic would be if we could get numbers from livingspeedbump for Jukebox. The main GB is complete and sets are in people's hands. Pictures have been posted, etc. Now they're available on PMK to buy like a standard storefront. I'd love to know how quickly they're selling and whether the total sold on PMK will come close to the GB sales figures.

IMHO, making a set available afterwards makes it less desirable and the sales will reflect that.

I do think some sets would be good to run with a GB-only novelties kit and then subsequently go up on PMK for "regular" sale, but other sets should stick to single runs, all at the discretion of the designer of course.

[Niomosy]

Sets aren't really necessarily up to the designer to determine such limitations.  They can't protect the colorway so that piece can be reproduced at will.  It's really a matter of whether or not anyone else is interested in taking that up.  In general, people tend to focus more on their own colorways rather than rerunning someone else's.  Those that do seem to want an existing design don't seem to want it bad enough to step up and do the work to rerun that colorway.

Thus it's a limited run more based on community priority than anything.  A designer would have no legal recourse for stopping a rerun of the colorway.

[zslane]

IMHO, making a set available afterwards makes it less desirable and the sales will reflect that.

Certainly from a collector's perspective, greater availability objectively lowers the aftermarket value of each instance. However, diminished desirability is a pschological issue that comes from comparing oneself to others and deriving value in life on the basis of what you have that others don't (or vice versa). I'm not sure that's a very laudible basis upon which to base a commercial enterprise. Unless, of course, your goal is to appeal exclusively to collectors and others with the same value system.

[neverused]

Limiting sets is ****ing stupid

+1 this.

I'm not here to pay for your feelings or emotional investment. It's the same as buying anything generation 1, you pay more to be first, you don't get as much of a return on your investment when more are sold, and life isn't fair. If you want to maintain value, buy them all so that you can force scarcity.

[Waateva]

Another interesting statistic would be how many GB's each poster has participated in, from IC to having caps in hand and the correlation between their views and GB participation.

I've been in... quite a few. It'll actually take me a little while to work out the numbers, so I'll post my "stats" later.

Anyway, yes, a lot of sets have only run once simply because there isn't enough demand to support a second run at a reasonable price. Some designers just won't redo a set no matter the demand, though. I can think of at least 3 sets off the top of my head that would get at least 75% of the original number of orders in a second run, but most would not either meet MOQ or get enough orders to bring the price to a decent level.

Another very interesting statistic would be if we could get numbers from livingspeedbump for Jukebox. The main GB is complete and sets are in people's hands. Pictures have been posted, etc. Now they're available on PMK to buy like a standard storefront. I'd love to know how quickly they're selling and whether the total sold on PMK will come close to the GB sales figures.

IMHO, making a set available afterwards makes it less desirable and the sales will reflect that.

I do think some sets would be good to run with a GB-only novelties kit and then subsequently go up on PMK for "regular" sale, but other sets should stick to single runs, all at the discretion of the designer of course.

I thought that they were selling the set on PMK because it didn't have enough interest and they were selling the rest of the first run of the set?  I was fine with it, because I missed it the first time and really just wanted the novelties, but I saw it on PMK and they arrived today, yay!

[HoffmanMyster]

The only thing I care about, as someone who buys way more keycap sets than he needs, is that my sets don't depreciate in value.  I have no interest in the sets becoming "rare" and increasing in value, but I would be sad if the initial run were really expensive and it was rerun en masse and lost its value.  But that's just me being selfish so I have the option to resell.  Ultimately, it's not a huge deal to me.

I agree with the comment earlier about needing exclusivity to get people interested in the first place.  There are a few really amazing and highly sought after sets out there that barely reached MOQ (some actually didn't but were produced anyway) - those would have had an even harder time if people banked on catching the next run. 

[Oobly]

Sets aren't really necessarily up to the designer to determine such limitations.  They can't protect the colorway so that piece can be reproduced at will.  It's really a matter of whether or not anyone else is interested in taking that up.  In general, people tend to focus more on their own colorways rather than rerunning someone else's.  Those that do seem to want an existing design don't seem to want it bad enough to step up and do the work to rerun that colorway.

Thus it's a limited run more based on community priority than anything.  A designer would have no legal recourse for stopping a rerun of the colorway.

We've been through this in the legalities thread: Signature Plastics will not run someone else's "colourway" without permission from the original designer.

And yes, a designer would have legal recourse. If a design is submitted in a country that has it (most EU countries), the design has automatic legal protection under "design rights" which works the same as copyright: https://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/protect/p15_design_rights

Note how "the overall impression" is the differentiating factor and it includes "the shape, texture, colour, materials used, contours and ornamentation."

Could you all please post your GB counts (from IC to completion) as I think this is very relevant. If a person has not participated in the process, it would be hard for them to completely understand what I'm talking about here.

[HoffmanMyster]

Could you all please post your GB counts (from IC to completion) as I think this is very relevant. If a person has not participated in the process, it would be hard for them to completely understand what I'm talking about here.

Group Buys that we have participated in (as opposed to organizing)?  More than I care to count. 

But I haven't organized one yet.

[zslane]

The "look and feel" of a "design" will not enjoy copyright protection in the US. That's not what copyright is for. It won't enjoy patent or trademark protection either. For the most part, an "overall design" falls into an area that doesn't receive IP protection here. Windows 95 is a very high-profile example of how much the courts will not reward "look and feel" litigation.

So, really, enforcing anything resembling IP protection for colorways is entirely at the discretion of SP. If they do so, it is because they have decided to do so as a goodwill gesture towards designers. Not because the American legal system demands it. And as a US manufacturer, they are not required to uphold the IP regulations of any other nation. If they ever change their policies on this, your only real remedy as a European designer is to take your designs elsewhere.

This will most likely become apparent when a keyset design comes along that comes close to a pre-existing design, and opinions on it become deeply divided within the community. SP isn't a court of law, their own policies on this matter aren't laws, and they aren't going to go through the kind of protracted process a real copyright violation hearing would go through, just to decide how to proceed. They'll decide however they wish, according to their own agenda, and all you can be sure of is that half of the community will be pleased and half of the community will be upset.