Author Topic: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R  (Read 16538 times)

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Offline Grossmeister

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TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« on: Mon, 26 February 2018, 09:41:12 »
What are the pros/cons when comparing these 2 options?
I've read enough reviews of both, and seems like both keyboards are high-quality.
But in similar threads on reddit almost all of the responds recommend Leopold over Ducky.

Now, the differences that I see:
* Weight: Ducky 2.43 lbs, Leopold 2.20 lbs
* Case: Leopold uses some dampening layer
* Cable: detachable on Leopold, fixed on Ducky - in general I don't care about it
* Dimensions: Ducky is a bit more compact, Leopold is lower
* Keycaps:
** Both PBT
** Leopold uses lower keycaps - I don't know if that is good or bad
** Ducky is available in black with side printing - and that is the option that I would like to buy. Leopold is only available (at mechanicalkeyboards) in white/green, white/gray and gray/blue. I might like the gray/blue color scheme (at least it looks nice on photos) but I don't like the top printing, because I often read that printing on PBT wears off really fast. I also saw pics of black Leopolds with side printing, but these options are not available on mechanicalkeyboards.
* Leopold has cable routing, but it seems useless to me, because the side channels go to the sides, not to the back of the keyboard.
* Seems like recent versions of both have identical dip switches
* Price: Ducky $89, Leopold $124
* Manufacturing: Ducky - China, Leopold - Taiwan
* Warranty: I don't care, because I won't use it due to the high back shipping cost

Can someone point out, what would be better/worse on each model?

Offline Entropia

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 27 February 2018, 04:57:42 »
I can't recommend Leopold enough. The build quality and finishes are outstanding. I also think you should consider the stabilizers. Leopold uses clipped Costar Cherry stabilizers, which make the long keys feel right. I'm not so sure about Duckies. Leopold also has included Cherry MX switches with new stems, at least with blacks, which are very very smooth. But, if you are interested in clears, I suppose it doesn't matter. As regard keycaps, my FC980M with blacks have 1,5 mm thick PBT keycaps and they feel fantastic, both in how they feel and how they sound. It has front-printed legends, which at first I wasn't very fond of, but now I love them because make my keyboard look very elegant and because they have forced me to learn to touch type. Leopold has included now double shot keycaps with top legends, but I have no idea about their quality.
« Last Edit: Tue, 27 February 2018, 05:05:58 by Entropia »

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 27 February 2018, 04:59:29 »
I can't recommend Leopold enough. The build quality and finishes are outstanding. I also think you should consider the stabilizers. Leopold uses clipped Costar stabilizers, which make the long keys feel right. I'm not so sure about Duckies. Leopold also has included Cherry MX switches with new stems, at least with blacks, which are very very smooth. But, if you are interested in clears, I suppose it doesn't matter.

Leopold does not use costar stabilizers.

But they do make great keyboards, I'm still using FC980M/C as daily driver.

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Offline Entropia

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 27 February 2018, 05:04:31 »
Yes, sorry I meant Cherry stabilizers.

Do you have both the 980M and 980C? I have two 980Ms, for home and work and I'm considering a 980c, just to give Topre a try. I love the 1800 layout. It's just the perfect size for me, and with numpad, which is essential for me.

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 27 February 2018, 05:57:47 »
Yes, sorry I meant Cherry stabilizers.

Do you have both the 980M and 980C? I have two 980Ms, for home and work and I'm considering a 980c, just to give Topre a try. I love the 1800 layout. It's just the perfect size for me, and with numpad, which is essential for me.
I use the M variant with silent reds at work and the C with 45g topre at home.

I own another 2 M models one with silent reds and one with blacks.

So I've got 4 in total.


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Offline Grossmeister

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 27 February 2018, 10:29:59 »
Entropia
I see you are really happy about the TK layout on FC980M? I'm also interested in it, so I guess I will now buy Ducky TKL, and based on experience with it, later will get one of the Leopold FC980.

Offline Entropia

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 27 February 2018, 11:59:37 »
Years ago I only wanted 100% keyboards, but then I understood the importance of less wide boards, since they help positioning your mouse closer. However, I didn't choose tenkeyless because I knew I would miss the numpad sooner or later. It's not because I cannot input numbers with the top row, which I sometimes do, but because I'm very used to the combined use of the numpad cursors and home, end, pgup and pgdown, for instance for moving and placing the text cursor on documents. Apart from this, I must say I hate wasd for gaming, and I prefer using my numpad. So, the 1800 layout was a very good solution for me. The only problem was the placement of the del key, too far away on the top row. So I exchanged the positions of it with the numlock, and remaped them via software. I also remaped the keys on the top right corner to other functions that I missed such as print screen, etc. I bought a keycap replacement set for them.
« Last Edit: Tue, 27 February 2018, 12:02:20 by Entropia »

Offline Polymer

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 27 February 2018, 22:32:12 »
Dye Subbed printing is not coming off...So if the whole concern you have with top printing is that..don't..

In addition, they have Doubleshot PBT keycaps as well (which are very good) which will also not rub off (LOL).

To me it is no contest really...Leopold....

Offline Grossmeister

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 28 February 2018, 05:47:09 »
Dye Subbed printing is not coming off...So if the whole concern you have with top printing is that..don't..

In addition, they have Doubleshot PBT keycaps as well (which are very good) which will also not rub off (LOL).
Well, I'm pretty sure I read several reviews of different boards where people were complaining about wearing off letters on dye subbed PBT keycaps. My guess is that a bad manufacturer can produce bad keycaps with any type of technology. :) Though, yeah, I can hardly imagine how to make wearing-off printings with double shot injection.

To me it is no contest really...Leopold....
I read this type of opinion everywhere. :) But I never saw someone could "measure" that difference that leads to "no contest" decision.

For example, there are 2 nice detailed reviews of Ducky and Leopold from same user:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=91150.0;topicseen
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=93436.0;topicseen (this is not TKL, but it doesn't matter)
And from those reviews I see that both are very high quality boards and both have some minor flaws.

Offline Kevadu

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 28 February 2018, 13:17:03 »
Dye Subbed printing is not coming off...So if the whole concern you have with top printing is that..don't..

In addition, they have Doubleshot PBT keycaps as well (which are very good) which will also not rub off (LOL).
Well, I'm pretty sure I read several reviews of different boards where people were complaining about wearing off letters on dye subbed PBT keycaps. My guess is that a bad manufacturer can produce bad keycaps with any type of technology. :) Though, yeah, I can hardly imagine how to make wearing-off printings with double shot injection.

The dye in a dye-sublimed keycap actually permeates the plastic itself (instead of being on top of the plastic like pad printing).  Unless you've physically worn off a significant portion of the plastic--which would require incredibly heavy use over a long period of time--the legends should never fade.  I have 30 year old keyboards that have seen heavy use and their dye-sublimed legends have not faded at all.

I don't know what reviews you've been reading but if anyone is having their "dye sublimed" legends wearing off during the time scale most reviews are conducted...I strongly suspect they weren't really dye sublimed to begin with.

Offline Polymer

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 28 February 2018, 17:28:47 »
Dye Subbed printing is not coming off...So if the whole concern you have with top printing is that..don't..

In addition, they have Doubleshot PBT keycaps as well (which are very good) which will also not rub off (LOL).
Well, I'm pretty sure I read several reviews of different boards where people were complaining about wearing off letters on dye subbed PBT keycaps. My guess is that a bad manufacturer can produce bad keycaps with any type of technology. :) Though, yeah, I can hardly imagine how to make wearing-off printings with double shot injection.

To me it is no contest really...Leopold....
I read this type of opinion everywhere. :) But I never saw someone could "measure" that difference that leads to "no contest" decision.

For example, there are 2 nice detailed reviews of Ducky and Leopold from same user:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=91150.0;topicseen
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=93436.0;topicseen (this is not TKL, but it doesn't matter)
And from those reviews I see that both are very high quality boards and both have some minor flaws.

I don't know where you go the impression dye subs can rub off..they go INTO the plastic so you'd basically have to take a layer of plastic off...I suppose that is technically possible but not really...The fact that you think it might be possible lends to the fact that you have some inexperience in this area...Aka:  You've read too much but don't understand it....Let me just tell you, they won't wear off. 

Not sure what measurements you want..You're trying to objectify something completely subjective....

But I'll tell you as someone that has tried both..

Leopold 750r (Get the PD version) might be one of the best mass produced stock keyboards out there.  VERY solid feel because the keycaps are so thick and they fit onto the stems perfectly which provides additional stability.  The mat inside helps with the sound which also gives it a very solid feel/sound.  A lot of people here like Cherry profile keycaps..Leopold's profile is almost identical to that....But if you prefer OEM profile then maybe you won't like these...This is entirely subjective though...

But outside of that...they're both good keyboards..they're both solid builds...there isn't a huge amount between them but the Leopold, overall, has a much better feel to it (in my opinion).

If you look at it purely on price/performance...is the Leo 1.4 times better than the Ducky?  no..but is it worth 36 dollars to get a more solid feeling keyboard with better keycaps?  Probably..but only you can make that decision.  One thing to consider, the Leopold stock (Doubleshot PBT) keycap set is very good for a stock set and is definitely one of the best stock keycaps sets available out on the market right now.  Ducky also makes a good Dye Sub PBT set..although the printing is not as clean as I'd like..


Offline Grossmeister

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 01 March 2018, 02:17:15 »
Get the PD version
PD means PBT Doubleshot?

One of the additional reasons I wanted to go with cheaper Ducky is that I can't try Clears locally, I'm only theoretically thinking (and based on what I already tried) they should be OK for me, but in case they will horrible I won't loose much. :)

About dye sub keycaps, you can see one of the examples in the first review I mentioned:
Quote
The keyboard is available with thick doubleshot ABS or thick dyesub PBT both with OEM profile.  Mine came with doubleshot ABS, but I have replaced them with Ducky dyesub PBT that I purchased separately.
...
Edit (12 Feb 2018): In my review I praised the Ducky Dyesub PBT keycaps, but in a heart-wrenching disbelief I recently noticed some wear on the lettering

Offline Polymer

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 01 March 2018, 03:02:08 »
I saw that post..but did you actually read it? 

Properly dye subbed shouldn't have this problem....and I don't know if anyone else has had this problem w/ anything else although it is entirely possible that a poorly dye subbed set would have the dye sitting on top (like printed rather than absorbed into the plastic). 

The fact that you're reading that as the norm..no offense but it means you have read too much and have experienced too little. 

If you want to spend the least amount of money possible, get the Ducky....It sounds like that really is what you want to hear....I don't think you really can go wrong w/ either keyboard..and like I said, there isn't a huge difference between the two...but for what I want, I'd rather spend 36 more and get the Doubleshot PBT Leopold, it is one of the most solid stock keyboards out there..

Offline Grossmeister

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 01 March 2018, 03:34:43 »
No, I don't want hear anything except the description of the difference or potential risks. Even if it is subjective - and when it comes to such devices most of the factors are subjective actually - it can be described in words. I see you clearly mentioned one such thing: that Leopold has better feeling stock keycaps, and that is the factor to consider, thanks.

Offline Polymer

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 01 March 2018, 06:07:05 »
Better feeling/quality stock keycaps which lends to greater stability.  It also sounds/feels a bit more solid as a keyboard. 

They're both very comparable in reliability.  Both use modded Cherry stabilizers. 

Offline schoolbus

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 01 March 2018, 07:45:31 »
Leopold uses south facing switches which is the way all keyboards should be compared to the Ducky. That alone makes them better especially if you decide to use Cherry profile keycaps (which Leopold already basically gives you off the bat).
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Offline Grossmeister

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 01 March 2018, 08:18:19 »
Leopold uses south facing switches
So, the expected difference is like in this video?

Offline Grossmeister

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 05 March 2018, 03:40:43 »
I have the last question. :) Are both keyboards OK for evaluating MX Clears? I mean, there are no special 'tweaks' by manufacturers that can drastically change switches tactility?

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 05 March 2018, 05:21:56 »
I have the last question. :) Are both keyboards OK for evaluating MX Clears? I mean, there are no special 'tweaks' by manufacturers that can drastically change switches tactility?
The Leopold should have a silencing pad inside the case which could affect your perception of switch feel due to being quieter.

The keycap material and profile play into switch feel as well, this is compounded when considering switch orientation (this was mentioned already) and/or if using in switch leds.

So much of this is personal preference it's hard to say until you try something what you will like.



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Offline Polymer

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 05 March 2018, 05:28:58 »
Whatever decision you make, you'll likely want to try other stuff anyways so it won't matter..

Or you'll be really happy with it because it is far better than whatever else you use, it'll basically be end game for you and it won't matter...

Offline buckyballs

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 07 March 2018, 06:12:19 »
Maybeee, the bad manufacturer wants to save on ink and time, so the dye subbing is done very quickly. There is only a very thin layer of dyesubbed plastic that is poor quality. After a few months of usage, the dyesubbed plastic is worn through by a few micrometers and what's left is undyesubbed plastic?

Dye Subbed printing is not coming off...So if the whole concern you have with top printing is that..don't..

. My guess is that a bad manufacturer can produce bad keycaps with any type of technology. :) Though, yeah, I can hardly imagine how to make wearing-off printings with double shot injection.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=93436.0;topicseen (this is not TKL, but it doesn't matter)
And from those reviews I see that both are very high quality boards and both have some minor flaws.


Offline Cheeks

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 08 May 2018, 08:54:41 »
I know i'm late to the game but I love my FC900R! I'm just up in the air if i want Cherry MX Red or Silent Red. I'm currently using red with my Leopold but has some silents on a corsair keyboard but took it back cuz i just wanted a leo!

Offline Grossmeister

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 20 May 2018, 08:44:24 »
OK guys, some time ago I received my Ducky One with MX Clears.
Board feels very sturdy, caps without letters on top look nice, MX Clears feel good - especially if you avoid bottoming.
Now about bad:
1) Bottom side of the caps has rough surface - its not a problem really, but this part is visible on the front row and doesn't look nice.
2) LEDs are not visible if you don't look from the top, they are almost useless for me. Also they are bright and blue which is a bad combination in my opinion, but since I can't see them, it is not a big problem. :)
3) Key travel feels something "scratchy" - I expected more smooth movement. Generally, I would say that I can rather hear it, tactile feeling is OK.
4) Side routing system requires too much pressure on the cable, and cable seems to receive to much pressure in the bending point. Ducky should make shorter connector to make more room for the cable in the bending point. That's why I didn't put the cable to side, because I think it will not survive long in such position.
5) BIG problem - board has annoying PING. And that is real problem. Now I'm thinking if there is something that can be dampened to eliminate/minimize this noise.

Is it ping related with MX Clears, or is it Ducky's problem? I saw/read many reviews and I remember several reviewers were complaining about ping, I think it was about Vortex and especially WASD.

Also, I wonder if Leopold has these 2 problems: 1) scratchy key travel (seems like switch related) 2) ping (board related?)?
« Last Edit: Sun, 20 May 2018, 09:04:41 by Grossmeister »

Offline schoolbus

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 04 June 2018, 14:35:57 »
Also, I wonder if Leopold has these 2 problems: 1) scratchy key travel (seems like switch related) 2) ping (board related?)?

All clears are going to be "scratchy" unless you can confirm you're getting retooled clears which is a gamble.

Leopold has a built in sound dampening pad that helps remove any pinging as brought up earlier.

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Offline ramblinrose

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 04 June 2018, 15:26:36 »
I've got a 750r with clears - I wouldn't consider them scratchy, although I'm not overly picky with that. In terms of ping, not too much, Leopold uses a dampening mat in the case and it sounds really good to me. I think there's a bit of spring ping noise if you're really looking for it, but that's true with most switches. It's a nice board!

Offline CustomerSupport

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 04 June 2018, 15:49:36 »
I've got a 750r with clears - I wouldn't consider them scratchy, although I'm not overly picky with that. In terms of ping, not too much, Leopold uses a dampening mat in the case and it sounds really good to me. I think there's a bit of spring ping noise if you're really looking for it, but that's true with most switches. It's a nice board!

All this. Just got a white/green board with Clears and they feel fantastic. Also, if OP goes to MK.com and gets a 750R PD, the keycaps are doubleshot PBT, which means they will never fade/wear, unless you basically destroy the keycap. Again, I got the PD model, and it is absolutely sublime.

Offline ramblinrose

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 05 June 2018, 06:53:03 »
Yup, mine came with the grey / blue pbt doubleshots, they are awesome keycaps!

Offline _PixelNinja

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 05 June 2018, 11:54:20 »
All clears are going to be "scratchy" unless you can confirm you're getting retooled clears which is a gamble.

To the best of my knowledge Cherry has not retooled their MX Clear production line.

Leopold has a built in sound dampening pad that helps remove any pinging as brought up earlier.

The sound dampening pad will reduce and potentially eliminate ping. However it can still occur. The only way to definitely cancel out ping is to lubricate the springs. 

Offline Polymer

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #28 on: Thu, 07 June 2018, 06:45:21 »
Yeap..exactly...You can still get a slight ping from a Leo 750r, even with MX silent..but it is definitely dampened compared to earlier Leos..

Offline czarek

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #29 on: Thu, 07 June 2018, 08:43:17 »
I have 980M with MX Reds that I can't use because it pings like crazy. I don't think this dampening pad in Leopolds does much. Also, if anyone wants to buy almost never used 980M in black, I'm open to offers :)
Oh and also, I have 2 Duckies, One and One 2 (what a stupid name), One has MX Browns, One 2 has MX Blues and neither of those Duckies has any sign of ping.
My point is - there is no rule, it's basically a lottery, and maybe some QC, but I really doubt keyboards are checked in regards of ping.
« Last Edit: Thu, 07 June 2018, 08:44:58 by czarek »
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Offline giangpn

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #30 on: Thu, 07 June 2018, 11:14:15 »
I would go with Leopold, I've had some Duckies in the past, and the LEDs on them went out after time...
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Offline Grossmeister

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #31 on: Sat, 09 June 2018, 13:46:21 »
All clears are going to be "scratchy" unless you can confirm you're getting retooled clears which is a gamble.
I must say that after some usage period scratchiness has significantly decreased.
Quote
Leopold has a built in sound dampening pad that helps remove any pinging as brought up earlier.
Unfortunately, before the purchase, no one warned me that ping can occur on any of these models.

I think there's a bit of spring ping noise if you're really looking for it, but that's true with most switches.
I have 980M with MX Reds that I can't use because it pings like crazy. I don't think this dampening pad in Leopolds does much.
Actually, judging from the sound I would say that this ping is coming from springs. That is why I can't believe that dampening bottom plate can eliminate it. Though, I might to try it and see.

The sound dampening pad will reduce and potentially eliminate ping. However it can still occur. The only way to definitely cancel out ping is to lubricate the springs. 
Can you point me exactly at this "anti-ping lubrication" procedure?

Offline schoolbus

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Re: TKL, Cherry MX Clear: Ducky One PBT vs Leopold FC750R
« Reply #32 on: Sun, 10 June 2018, 11:07:15 »
Lubricating the springs is a huge endeavor that would require you to desolder all the switches and open them up and apply lube.
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