Looking to host Group Buy - Need Advice

[jcollapse]

Hi All,

I am new to both this forum as well as the world of mechanical keyboards as a whole, so I apologize if I am a bit uninformed and ask some silly questions here and there.  I have recently been doing quite a bit of research on the topic of mechanical keyboards and kept getting linked to this forum, so I figured this would be the best place to reach out to the community 

I stumbled upon Pimp My Keyboards and absolutely love some of the group buys that are listed in their archives.  Being a graphic designer I immediately got excited over the opportunity to design a set of keycaps to offer up to the community, but I feel that I currently lack the proper knowledge to pull off hosting a group buy considering this is all so new to me.  I have pretty much finished designing a TKL set with some alternate function keys (alternate having icons rather than simply text), and intend on including OSX keys as I myself am a mac user and personally love seeing CMND, OPT, etc included.  Based on all that I have gathered I would like these to be PBT DSAs, although that is based on reading / watching videos online, I haven't had any hands on experienced all of these options.

My questions are as follows:

- I assume PMK only would require me to send designs their way, host the keycap set, communicate with people asking questions or making recommendations, and also promote it... is this correct?  What they say on their site implies that they handle the actual production of the product and it would be completely out of my hands, although I wanted to be 100% sure as their copy wasn't completely clear.

- Is there a reason I shouldn't go with PBT DSA, or is that purely up to individual preference?

- What child sets / alternate keys should I absolutely include?  I personally have no interest in ergodox, but I know a lot of you guys love and swear by them and I wouldn't want to leave anybody out.  I don't see any reason that I should't accommodate everybody in a set as it would just be a matter of designing more keys to include everybody's needs.

- Is there anything else I should be aware of before hosting a group buy on PMK?

Here is an image of the work in progress.  The keyset will be called "Blackbeard 1718".  It is a pirate themed set and is an homage to the infamous Blackbeard who died in 1718.  Many of the icons (such as the bleeding heart, the hour glass and the style of many of the arrows and strokes) are those featured in Blackbeard's flag.  I still have some things I want to tweak, but I think it is coming together nicely

[metalliqaz]

Start with an IC before you go to GB.  Most designs need tremendous mass appeal in order to tip at PMK.  You will need to gauge interest and ability. Remember that custom legends are expensive.

[i3oilermaker]

I can tell you from experience that set is not feasible as displayed due to the amount of new legends required.  You would likely need to settle on WYSE or Cherry legends for most keys.

[jcollapse]

Start with an IC before you go to GB.  Most designs need tremendous mass appeal in order to tip at PMK.  You will need to gauge interest and ability. Remember that custom legends are expensive.

Thank you for your feedback / advice, impressively fast response too!

I would definitely start with an interest check, sorry I left that bit out.  As for custom legends costing more, what exactly makes a legend a "custom legend"?  I know the obvious ones such as the escape key I have would be custom, but does PMK use a preset font for their keys or would they pull the font I used on mine for all the alphanumeric keys?  And if all of the modifier keys I have above are custom legends should I tone them down a bit to keep it cheaper?  Would it be better to offer those as a child set as to give people the option to buy them but not make it a part of the full set?  What would be a good balance here?

[jdcarpe]

I can tell you from experience that set is not feasible as displayed due to the amount of new legends required.  You would likely need to settle on WYSE or Cherry legends for most keys.

He was planning on dyesub on PBT, so the legends wouldn't be a problem.

The problem is you can't dyesub a light color (white) onto a dark color (black).

[jcollapse]

I can tell you from experience that set is not feasible as displayed due to the amount of new legends required.  You would likely need to settle on WYSE or Cherry legends for most keys.

I was unaware that there were preset legend sets for these.  I can do some google-ing to check WYSE and Cherry legends out.  I would still love to have the escape, windows and menu keys as they are, maybe the 3 yellow keys on the top right as well, but I don't think the aesthetic would be compromised too much if all of the others were standardized.  Thank you for the information!

[jcollapse]

I can tell you from experience that set is not feasible as displayed due to the amount of new legends required.  You would likely need to settle on WYSE or Cherry legends for most keys.

He was planning on dyesub on PBT, so the legends wouldn't be a problem.

The problem is you can't dyesub a light color (white) onto a dark color (black).

I have read that dyesub is a great method but doesn't work with light content on dark keys, however I didn't realize it would be more costly to do this using other methods.  What do you think the best approach would be for this?

[i3oilermaker]

I can tell you from experience that set is not feasible as displayed due to the amount of new legends required.  You would likely need to settle on WYSE or Cherry legends for most keys.

He was planning on dyesub on PBT, so the legends wouldn't be a problem.

The problem is you can't dyesub a light color (white) onto a dark color (black).

Yea - none of these keys are feasible as a dysub.

FYI:

Cherry: http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0218/4886/products/Base_c8c15081-83dd-4b62-84ca-2499e4c0721e_1024x1024.jpg?v=1398019660
WYSE: http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0218/4886/products/Lily_Base_no_text_1024x1024.jpg?v=1383533522

[jdcarpe]

I can tell you from experience that set is not feasible as displayed due to the amount of new legends required.  You would likely need to settle on WYSE or Cherry legends for most keys.

I was unaware that there were preset legend sets for these.  I can do some google-ing to check WYSE and Cherry legends out.  I would still love to have the escape, windows and menu keys as they are, maybe the 3 yellow keys on the top right as well, but I don't think the aesthetic would be compromised too much if all of the others were standardized.  Thank you for the information!

I would recommend Cherry legends, as they are most similar to what you have in your mockup.

So, what you want is double shot ABS, not dyesub PBT. SP cannot dyesub white onto red or black. Nor can they do double shot PBT.

Have you ever used DSA family caps before? I personally hate them, but they are good if you need uniform profile. I strongly prefer either SA family or DCS family over DSA.

[jcollapse]

I can tell you from experience that set is not feasible as displayed due to the amount of new legends required.  You would likely need to settle on WYSE or Cherry legends for most keys.

He was planning on dyesub on PBT, so the legends wouldn't be a problem.

The problem is you can't dyesub a light color (white) onto a dark color (black).

Yea - none of these keys are feasible as a dysub.

FYI:

Cherry: http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0218/4886/products/Base_c8c15081-83dd-4b62-84ca-2499e4c0721e_1024x1024.jpg?v=1398019660
WYSE: http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0218/4886/products/Lily_Base_no_text_1024x1024.jpg?v=1383533522

Great, thank you for these links.  Can I choose to center the letters in using these or are they forced to be placed in the top left?

[i3oilermaker]

Nope they are where they are.

[jdcarpe]

I can tell you from experience that set is not feasible as displayed due to the amount of new legends required.  You would likely need to settle on WYSE or Cherry legends for most keys.

He was planning on dyesub on PBT, so the legends wouldn't be a problem.

The problem is you can't dyesub a light color (white) onto a dark color (black).

Yea - none of these keys are feasible as a dysub.

FYI:

Cherry: http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0218/4886/products/Base_c8c15081-83dd-4b62-84ca-2499e4c0721e_1024x1024.jpg?v=1398019660
WYSE: http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0218/4886/products/Lily_Base_no_text_1024x1024.jpg?v=1383533522

Great, thank you for these links.  Can I choose to center the letters in using these or are they forced to be placed in the top left?

FYI, Cherry legends are only available in DCS family keycaps. WYSE, or "SP Standard" is available across all their product lines.

You can have WYSE centered if you wish, but Cherry legends are always positioned top left.




Also, any non-standard symbols you use will be considered custom legends, and have an associated cost per keycap ($25-40, I believe).

[jcollapse]

I can tell you from experience that set is not feasible as displayed due to the amount of new legends required.  You would likely need to settle on WYSE or Cherry legends for most keys.

I was unaware that there were preset legend sets for these.  I can do some google-ing to check WYSE and Cherry legends out.  I would still love to have the escape, windows and menu keys as they are, maybe the 3 yellow keys on the top right as well, but I don't think the aesthetic would be compromised too much if all of the others were standardized.  Thank you for the information!

I would recommend Cherry legends, as they are most similar to what you have in your mockup.

So, what you want is double shot ABS, not dyesub PBT. SP cannot dyesub white onto red or black. Nor can they do double shot PBT.

Have you ever used DSA family caps before? I personally hate them, but they are good if you need uniform profile. I strongly prefer either SA family or DCS family over DSA.

Is dyesub the only method for printing on PBT keycaps?

I haven't used a DSA keyboard before, however I use keyboard shortcuts all day (mostly with one hand) and the even-ness / flat-ness of the keys seems like it would be perfect for that.  If the profile of a keyboard is too dramatic it would potentially slow me down in my work.  That being said, I am not 100% sure as to if I would love it or not.

[Supergeek]

I can tell you from experience that set is not feasible as displayed due to the amount of new legends required.

I read a dollar estimate somewhere that explained how much each custom legend would cost.

It would be really nice if SP would have a list of the legends they have available for anyone to use, like the icon modifiers, fonts for standards keys and so on.

[plegnic]

I can tell you from experience that set is not feasible as displayed due to the amount of new legends required.  You would likely need to settle on WYSE or Cherry legends for most keys.

I was unaware that there were preset legend sets for these.  I can do some google-ing to check WYSE and Cherry legends out.  I would still love to have the escape, windows and menu keys as they are, maybe the 3 yellow keys on the top right as well, but I don't think the aesthetic would be compromised too much if all of the others were standardized.  Thank you for the information!

I would recommend Cherry legends, as they are most similar to what you have in your mockup.

So, what you want is double shot ABS, not dyesub PBT. SP cannot dyesub white onto red or black. Nor can they do double shot PBT.

Have you ever used DSA family caps before? I personally hate them, but they are good if you need uniform profile. I strongly prefer either SA family or DCS family over DSA.

Is dyesub the only method for printing on PBT keycaps?

I haven't used a DSA keyboard before, however I use keyboard shortcuts all day (mostly with one hand) and the even-ness / flat-ness of the keys seems like it would be perfect for that.  If the profile of a keyboard is too dramatic it would potentially slow me down in my work.  That being said, I am not 100% sure as to if I would love it or not.

It is possible to produce double-shot PBT keycaps, but not through Signature Plastics. They are only set up for dye-sub on PBT. Don't be afraid of ABS: it's not an inherently cheap or evil plastic.

[jdcarpe]

I can tell you from experience that set is not feasible as displayed due to the amount of new legends required.

I read a dollar estimate somewhere that explained how much each custom legend would cost.

It would be really nice if SP would have a list of the legends they have available for anyone to use, like the icon modifiers, fonts for standards keys and so on.

Let's assume there are 14 custom legends in the mockup, and that they cost $25 each. That comes to $350 on top of the base price of the kit. So, at 75 orders, each person would be paying almost $5 extra per set to fund the custom legends.

[jcollapse]

I can tell you from experience that set is not feasible as displayed due to the amount of new legends required.  You would likely need to settle on WYSE or Cherry legends for most keys.

I was unaware that there were preset legend sets for these.  I can do some google-ing to check WYSE and Cherry legends out.  I would still love to have the escape, windows and menu keys as they are, maybe the 3 yellow keys on the top right as well, but I don't think the aesthetic would be compromised too much if all of the others were standardized.  Thank you for the information!

I would recommend Cherry legends, as they are most similar to what you have in your mockup.

So, what you want is double shot ABS, not dyesub PBT. SP cannot dyesub white onto red or black. Nor can they do double shot PBT.

Have you ever used DSA family caps before? I personally hate them, but they are good if you need uniform profile. I strongly prefer either SA family or DCS family over DSA.

Is dyesub the only method for printing on PBT keycaps?

I haven't used a DSA keyboard before, however I use keyboard shortcuts all day (mostly with one hand) and the even-ness / flat-ness of the keys seems like it would be perfect for that.  If the profile of a keyboard is too dramatic it would potentially slow me down in my work.  That being said, I am not 100% sure as to if I would love it or not.

It is possible to produce double-shot PBT keycaps, but not through Signature Plastics. They are only set up for dye-sub on PBT. Don't be afraid of ABS: it's not an inherently cheap or evil plastic.

Based on what I have gathered I legit was viewing it as an "inherently cheap" option, haha.  For anybody that has them, how is the quality of SP ABS keycaps?

[jdcarpe]

Based on what I have gathered I legit was viewing it as an "inherently cheap" option, haha.  For anybody that has them, how is the quality of SP ABS keycaps?

SP's ABS offerings are not low quality, as are found stock on most keyboards. Consider that the same keycaps (DCS family, with SP's Gorton Modified "standard" font legends) were used on WYSE terminal keyboards which stood up to years of data entry, and still look good today.

[jcollapse]

I can tell you from experience that set is not feasible as displayed due to the amount of new legends required.

I read a dollar estimate somewhere that explained how much each custom legend would cost.

It would be really nice if SP would have a list of the legends they have available for anyone to use, like the icon modifiers, fonts for standards keys and so on.

Let's assume there are 14 custom legends in the mockup, and that they cost $25 each. That comes to $350 on top of the base price of the kit. So, at 75 orders, each person would be paying almost $5 extra per set to fund the custom legends.

Oh!  Light bulb just went off here.  So is the creation of a custom legend similar to that of making a tshirt where you need to pay to create the actual silk screen itself, but once its created using it to print isn't a big cost?  So if a custom legend costs $25 that doesn't mean that each copy is $25, just the initial cost of creating the means to produce them?  If this is the case I might try and have a child set that would include all of the custom keys as an extra add-on (backspace, shift, tab, etc) or at least see if anybody would be interested in them.

I would like to say thanks to you all once again for answering my newbie questions.  You are all very kind and helpful!

[jdcarpe]

I can tell you from experience that set is not feasible as displayed due to the amount of new legends required.

I read a dollar estimate somewhere that explained how much each custom legend would cost.

It would be really nice if SP would have a list of the legends they have available for anyone to use, like the icon modifiers, fonts for standards keys and so on.

Let's assume there are 14 custom legends in the mockup, and that they cost $25 each. That comes to $350 on top of the base price of the kit. So, at 75 orders, each person would be paying almost $5 extra per set to fund the custom legends.

Oh!  Light bulb just went off here.  So is the creation of a custom legend similar to that of making a tshirt where you need to pay to create the actual silk screen itself, but once its created using it to print isn't a big cost?  So if a custom legend costs $25 that doesn't mean that each copy is $25, just the initial cost of creating the means to produce them?  If this is the case I might try and have a child set that would include all of the custom keys as an extra add-on (backspace, shift, tab, etc) or at least see if anybody would be interested in them.

I would like to say thanks to you all once again for answering my newbie questions.  You are all very kind and helpful!

I would recommend against making too many child kits. They have a tendency not to tip.

Look at my and [CTRL]ALT's "Hack'd by Geeks" buy for an example of how you can include most popular options in one kit:





As an example, these are SP double shot ABS, in DCS family with Cherry legends:

[Supergeek]

I can tell you from experience that set is not feasible as displayed due to the amount of new legends required.

I read a dollar estimate somewhere that explained how much each custom legend would cost.

It would be really nice if SP would have a list of the legends they have available for anyone to use, like the icon modifiers, fonts for standards keys and so on.

Let's assume there are 14 custom legends in the mockup, and that they cost $25 each. That comes to $350 on top of the base price of the kit. So, at 75 orders, each person would be paying almost $5 extra per set to fund the custom legends.

$5 more per set to get 14 custom legends isn't a bad tradeoff. If I'm already paying a premium to get something nice, $5 won't put me off from getting something even more unique.

[jdcarpe]

FYI, I like your colorway concept.




Those are SP DCS family double shot ABS, also. WYSE font this time.

[jcollapse]

FYI, I like your colorway concept.

Show Image

Those are SP DCS family double shot ABS, also. WYSE font this time.

Thank you, this image is a good example as well.  I think I would opt for WYSE since I can center the characters on the keys, I really like the centered look.

Another random question.  Is there an issue in having some of the characters (such as the letters) be white on black keys while others (such as the numbers) are yellow on black keys?

Also, is it safe to assume that I would have to go with ABS vs PBT based on the black keys?  I am fine with ABS, just trying to narrow down the options to plan correctly.

[jdcarpe]

Thank you, this image is a good example as well.  I think I would opt for WYSE since I can center the characters on the keys, I really like the centered look.

Here is an example of large, centered WYSE legends (SA-family):

Another random question.  Is there an issue in having some of the characters (such as the letters) be white on black keys while others (such as the numbers) are yellow on black keys?

No, that's not an issue.

Also, is it safe to assume that I would have to go with ABS vs PBT based on the black keys?  I am fine with ABS, just trying to narrow down the options to plan correctly.

Yes, unless you wanted pad printing on PBT, these would need to be double shot ABS.

[jcollapse]

Thank you, this image is a good example as well.  I think I would opt for WYSE since I can center the characters on the keys, I really like the centered look.

Here is an example of large, centered WYSE legends (SA-family):

Show Image

Another random question.  Is there an issue in having some of the characters (such as the letters) be white on black keys while others (such as the numbers) are yellow on black keys?

No, that's not an issue.

Also, is it safe to assume that I would have to go with ABS vs PBT based on the black keys?  I am fine with ABS, just trying to narrow down the options to plan correctly.

Yes, unless you wanted pad printing on PBT, these would need to be double shot ABS.

Awesome.  So is there a place I can go to see all of the WYSE legends laid out nicely, or even a downloadable vector file that would allow me to place them directly in the mockup?  You said that image is an example of "large" WYSE legends, are there a few other sizes?  I like the size of the letters on the black and red keyboard you linked above and the centered placement of the grey and blue one.

Also, on the blue and grey image you shared are the caps lock, shift, alt keys all part of the WYSE legends as well or are those custom?  I noticed different key designs for those on the other black and red keyboard image.

[jcollapse]

I can tell you from experience that set is not feasible as displayed due to the amount of new legends required.

I read a dollar estimate somewhere that explained how much each custom legend would cost.

It would be really nice if SP would have a list of the legends they have available for anyone to use, like the icon modifiers, fonts for standards keys and so on.

Let's assume there are 14 custom legends in the mockup, and that they cost $25 each. That comes to $350 on top of the base price of the kit. So, at 75 orders, each person would be paying almost $5 extra per set to fund the custom legends.

$5 more per set to get 14 custom legends isn't a bad tradeoff. If I'm already paying a premium to get something nice, $5 won't put me off from getting something even more unique.

Just saw this message, and yeah I agree an extra $5 isn't much considering you are going in to purchase something specific and unique.  I guess the actual amount of extra money it will end up costing depends on how many of these keys I include and how many people buy end up buying in.  This is still all great information I wasn't aware of at the start of the day, very glad I decided to reach out to you all.

[KHAANNN]

Thank you, this image is a good example as well.  I think I would opt for WYSE since I can center the characters on the keys, I really like the centered look.

Here is an example of large, centered WYSE legends (SA-family):

Show Image

Another random question.  Is there an issue in having some of the characters (such as the letters) be white on black keys while others (such as the numbers) are yellow on black keys?

No, that's not an issue.

Also, is it safe to assume that I would have to go with ABS vs PBT based on the black keys?  I am fine with ABS, just trying to narrow down the options to plan correctly.

Yes, unless you wanted pad printing on PBT, these would need to be double shot ABS.

I would join your hack'd by geeks gb If I was around that time, those extras seems very well thought

What's the set in this picture, it's extremely beautiful

I also really like OP's design, too bad it's not feasible

[jcollapse]

I would join your hack'd by geeks gb If I was around that time, those extras seems very well thought

What's the set in this picture, it's extremely beautiful

I also really like OP's design, too bad it's not feasible

Thank you sir.  I plan to modify the design to make it more feasible to actually produce.  I have learned a lot in this here thread and will follow up with you all once I have a revised version to see if it is more realistic.

[regack]

Show Image

What's the set in this picture, it's extremely beautiful

 

This looks like "Round 4 Spherical" - it's a fantastic set, they feel spectacular.