Need help on finding a new keyboard, been using IBM Model M 1391401

[Zevus]

I love my Model M (I even still have a few reserves I bought on eBay many years ago, haha) but for the last couple years I've begun having problems with pain in my hands after only a few minutes of typing.   It's not my wrist, but more the joints & knuckles of my hands (I'm 33 now, so I guess it's not out of the ordinary after a lifetime of typing).  I've occasionally had to swap in a generic $10 POS when it becomes really bad.

I've recently discovered a few typing speed sites (like typeracer) & also have a video of me typing there @

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjAB7RxfC90

I note this because on the aforementioned cheap POS keyboard I have a lot of problems with inverted characters, missing characters, etc.  I need a keyboard that can handle speeds of >200wpm.   I used to be able to type much faster & I suspect the "hard" keys of this 1391401 are one of the main problems (and the fact that I'm not 20 anymore)..

Is there such a thing as a "light touch", tactile keyboard?  I'd love to have something w/ the same feedback as this 1391401 but just be easier on the hands w/ a lighter touch.   I googled it but it seems like the general idea is that most people that want light touch keyboards also want them to be quiet (which I do not).  I've seen a few that I may be interested in, but they don't have the 1391401 layout.  

The "perfect" keyboard for me would be one that is very light on the touch w/ the exact same layout and tactile feedback of the 1391401.   I suspect that may be a pipe dream....  so, I guess I may have to take the windows keys...  I would like it to have the same keyboard layout though (big spacebar, big backspace, \ in same location, etc).  Does anyone have any recommendations (regardless of price)?

[ironman31]

A good light touch keyboard is something with cherry browns. Not much more of a graze is needed to register. It seems like it'd be good for your speed. (Filco makes them)

The feedback of the model m is is pretty hard to come by on other switches, but after just buying a topre, it seems like a lighter version might be up your ally too. (I bought an all 55g Realforce 103ub)

But since you're used to the model m, an all 55g might feel a little lighter

[ironman31]

And cherry blues could also be a good choice, since you're used to the sound the model m makes when it actuates

[Zevus]

And cherry blues could also be a good choice, since you're used to the sound the model m makes when it actuates

Thanks for the suggestions..

I google searched em and found some website 'elitekeyboards' that sells both the filco and realforce.  I read their little information page about the diff between the brown and blue switches.   From the graph they display it looks like the blue switches only require maybe a few % more force than the brown ones and from the little snippet "The "Blue" differs from the "Brown" primarily in that it creates an audible click.", I think I'd go w/ the blue based off of that.  Do you have any idea how the IBM Model M 1391401 would compare to the models listed on that graph?  (it's @ http://www.elitekeyboards.com/support.php , i hope posting URLs is allowed here).   Would it be similar to the force required for their black switches, or possibly higher than that?

One concern when looking at their keyboards is the "undersized" spacebar.  I'm guessing something like that is unavoidable nowadays though, right?  I'm not going to have much luck finding a keyboard like these w/o the windows keys, eh?  (ed: I really don't care if it has the windows keys - just if the spacebar and right ALT key positions are unmodified, but I don't see how that'd be possible w/ the 2 extra keys on right side of spacebar)

[Morning Song]

Buckling springs have about 70g actuation force.. compared to i think roughly 60g for cherry black and 55g for cherry blue. (There's better numbers in the Wiki section, i believe). it may not sound like a lot, but it's a pretty significant difference in feel.

ANd unfortunately, unicomps are the only keyboards i know of that you can still get brand new without winkeys.

[Zevus]

Buckling springs have about 70g actuation force.. compared to i think roughly 60g for cherry black and 55g for cherry blue. (There's better numbers in the Wiki section, i believe). it may not sound like a lot, but it's a pretty significant difference in feel.

ANd unfortunately, unicomps are the only keyboards i know of that you can still get brand new without winkeys.

Ah, I did just find the wiki entry after you mentioned it (didn't even notice it before):

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Mechanical+Switch+Keyboards+Sorted+By+Switch

I'm a bit interested in the topre switches now (specifically something 35g or under).  I'd be willing to try a non-clicky keyboard, esp since that's so much less than the 45g and 50g for the brown and blue respectively.  The cheapest to get those is the $320 or whatever it specifies though?  Seems pretty damn expensive to give something a try *sigh*.  

I have a couple new in box Model M's with ID numbers in the low 5mil ('89 manufacture) that I plan on selling after I find a new keyboard but that wouldn't even pay for that... yikes.

[Zevus]

OK, after a couple more hrs, I guess now I'm looking at the "Realforce 101".   It states "The Realforce 101 is a copy of the IBM Model M layout but with Topre switches instead of Buckling spring switches. It also is a variable force board where the pinky keys are 30g and the main keys are 45g with the escape key coming in at 55g. "

So basically most of the keys would have the same force requirement as the brown cherries (based on other wiki) but w/ the same layout I'm used to.  Although it wouldn't be a clicky like I would prefer (and cost more as well).  

There's apparently a uniform 30g one @ http://www.diatec.co.jp/shop/det.php?prod_c=31 but it has that bizarre Japanese key layout.  I guess my dream keyboard would be one of those w/ the same layout as the Realforce 101.  I guess it doesn't exist?

I'm not missing anything, correct?  Want to make sure since I guess this will be a larger chunk of change than I thought.  I guess it'd be between the Realforce 101 (listed at equivalent of $216 USD on a Japanese site, probably have to pay a fortune in shipping though) & either the "DAS Professional Model S" @ $129 or the "Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless Tactile Click" @ $121 (cherry blue switches).  

Benefit of Realforce 101 is 45g force as opposed to 50g (and smaller requirements on a few keys, but my pinky isn't causing me more concern than any other fingers really) & same layout as my current keyboard.  Downside is much higher price & non-clicky.

Does anyone have any experience w/ using these?  Is the DAS better than the Filco or visa-versa?  Is it worth spending an extra $150'ish on the Realforce 101 over those two?

Thanks for all the help so far =p

(whoops, I guess I wouldn't want a tenkeyless, so I'd get the model w/ the numpad)

[ch_123]

You can get a Realforce 101 from a Japanese importer such as BeNippon. But you can get the updated model cheaper in the US here.

[hyperlinked]

I love my Model M (I even still have a few reserves I bought on eBay many years ago, haha) but for the last couple years I've begun having problems with pain in my hands after only a few minutes of typing.   It's not my wrist, but more the joints & knuckles of my hands (I'm 33 now, so I guess it's not out of the ordinary after a lifetime of typing).

I'm not nearly as fast as you as you are, but I've been able to easily clear 100wpm for just about all of my adult life and I've done a lot of work behind the computer so my hands have racked up a lot of mileage. I'm three years older than you and it wasn't until about five years ago that my hands first started to give me problems. I think all the high speed typing combined with long hours of use finally caught up to me.

It got back enough in the past couple of years that I started to use speech recognition software because I could no longer sustain extended typing without being in pain. I'm a programmer so I'd only use my hands to code because that is really hard to do with speech recognition and for everything else, speech recognition did most of the composing.

That was until I got my hands on a Filco with Cherry Browns. I discovered this board around a year ago and got acquainted with all these great keyboards and got to try a lot of them out. I'm not totally pain free, but I can handle any normal day's wear and tear without discomfort and I'm not going to bed wondering how much longer my hands will hold out.

I'm typing this on a Realforce103 right now. I just got it yesterday and I can't say for sure yet if this is going to dethrone the Browns, but my general feeling is that this might be my new favorite switch and board. Even though the key weighting is on par with the Browns, it really feels different and it's taking some adjusting for me to get used to them. It's the same process I went through when I first started using the Browns. Just the subtle difference in feel is enough to throw you off for a while, but judging from your Typeracer video, you'll adjust in time.

Although it seems sensible that you might like the Cherry blue switches because there's some click to them like your Model M, it's a totally different kind of click and if you're doing 175wpm on Typeracer, you're probably bottoming out and that'll be all the tactile feedback you need. The "click" of the blues is also more of a "tic" rather than a clicking sound. Also with me, my hands feel the effect of typing on Blues more. My hands do get sore after a normal day even though the force differential between the Browns and Blues don't appear to be that great.

Like the rest of here, you'll just have to try out as many as you can to see what suits you best. I wasn't trying to steer you away from the Blues. I just wanted to point out that picking the Blues because they also click might be a flawed approach.

I've recently discovered a few typing speed sites (like typeracer) & also have a video of me typing there @

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjAB7RxfC90

If you hands are hurting, wean yourself! Defending your spot on Typeracer isn't going to do your hands any wonders.

I note this because on the aforementioned cheap POS keyboard

Around here, POS stands for "Point of Sale."

[effnish]

I've used all 3 (IBM, Cherry Blue, and RealForce) and so have a good percentage of the people on these forums.  For tactile feedback the IBM is miles better than the Cherry or Topre switches.  I personally love the lightest keys I can find.  I constantly miss keys because I don't press the key hard enough to register them.  As for your typing speed, the other forum members may be better able to vouch for each keyboard's capability there.

The Cherry Blues have the audible click and are noticeably lighter.  I picked up a cheap board here on the forums for about $25, so you can test these switches on the cheap. My only complaint on the blues is the repeat on the same key takes some getting used to.  I occasionally don't let the key up far enough so it doesn't register the second key press.

The RealForce I have with the variable weighting is pure heaven.  I've only owned it a week, but it's my dream keyboard.  The tactile feedback is good for as light as the keyswitches are and I think it's about the quietest keyboard made.  You'll have to adjust to the lighter keys, especially coming from a Model M.  I occasionally leave a bunch of 'aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa' on the screen when I'm thinking because the 35g keys are barely enough to rest your fingers on.

[hoggy]

I love my Kinesis Advantage - uses cherry browns and helps keep my arms and wrists in a better position that a standard flat keyboard.  That said - I swap between that and a Filco, Compaq mx11800, a goldtouch and an sometimes I bring in a 'guest' keyboard from home for the week.

[hyperlinked]

I occasionally leave a bunch of 'aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa' on the screen when I'm thinking because the 35g keys are barely enough to rest your fingers on.

This might be a reason against going with the 30g Realforce board especially if you're coming from a Model M. If you have to hold up your fingers completely all the time, you may either develop extra neck and shoulder tension or you'll compensate by resting your wrists hard on something. Neither are good.

[didjamatic]

Even going from cherry browns to a 30g pinky Topre will make you aaaaaaaaaa and ;;;;;;;;;;; like crazy.  I believe 35g to be the minimum practical key resistance for that switch.  You lose tactility and bump them so easy at 30g that I can't use them.  There may be happy 86u owners out there but I can't do 30g.

[HaaTa]

30g Topre

Nice board, I enjoy typing on it, though I do get the occasional mistype. Probably a good thing to note, is that I had a few months of practice with my MX Red board (44g) before picking up the 30g Topre, and I had quite a few mistypes moving to the MX Reds (from Model M/Cherry MYs/Model F)

[Zevus]

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the replies.  Hyperlinked, your situation sounds just about exactly like mine.. almost the same timeframe as well.   I've decided to go with this:

http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_104key&pid=fkbn104meb

I'm not too keen on not being able to return it (for anything other than DOA) but I guess at worst I could probably resell it as "nearly brand new" and wouldn't be out all that much.   I was considering going with the Realforce, but from some of the responses that might be a bit too big of a leap right now.  So I'll try this one and see how it goes and if/after I adjust to it, say, 6 months down the road I may try something that requires even lighter force.  

I actually have stayed away from typeracer for the most part.. I think in that video I had about 350 races, now I'm only up to 675 or so.     I spent a few days doing that heavily and it destroyed my hands for several more days afterwards... it's just a bit disheartening really.  All these problems associated w/ age starting to creep in... heh.  Oh well, this new keyboard should help some as long as I can adjust to it.

Now.... if that guy actually added a 'races initiated' stat or something like that and got rid of all the people that were heavily race selecting to pad their stats....  I'd be sorely tempted to put several more hundred races on there.  =p

James

[hyperlinked]

I actually have stayed away from typeracer for the most part.. I think in that video I had about 350 races, now I'm only up to 675 or so.     I spent a few days doing that heavily and it destroyed my hands for several more days afterwards... it's just a bit disheartening really.

I know how you feel. I really do LOVE to type (I'm sure you do too), but I have to avoid purposeless full speed typing. I had to give up FPS games too because of the RSI. I sneak an occasional game in, but the word you mentioned, "disheartening" comes to mind. I get absolutely pwned now and realize I don't have any skill anymore.

I have the board that you're getting. I love it and it is built like a tank... Mine has been through more abuse than a wise owner should be putting any board through and it's still working perfectly. It's not quite a Model M, but it's got plenty of heft to it.

As you concluded, it might be about as big of a jump as you should make right now. If you like the way it feels, you'll be plenty happy and you probably can't yet fully appreciate the difference between Browns and Topres just yet.

I hope they do for your hands what they did for mine. A good chair and a keyboard tray might be helpful accessories too if you don't have those already, but that's a topic for another day.

[patrickgeekhack]

I'm with hyperlinked on the benefits of Brown Cherry. In fact, I just did a thread about it without knowing that this was being discussed here. I noticed that brown Cherry causes the least amount of fatigue.

[microsoft windows]

Only if you type lightly on them. I was a little hard on them and bottomed out too hard.

[ironman31]

Only if you type lightly on them. I was a little hard on them and bottomed out too hard.

I agree.    :O

[Rusty Rat]

I'm with hyperlinked on the benefits of Brown Cherry. In fact, I just did a thread about it without knowing that this was being discussed here. I noticed that brown Cherry causes the least amount of fatigue.

I think this comes down to personal preferences and typing styles which is the great thing about having a variety of switches available. Currently I have Cherry Blacks, Browns and Blues and BS. For long typing sessions I find the Model M the least fatiguing. Probably 20 plus years of muscle memory?
To each their own - after you have tested a few different types

[microsoft windows]

Yeah, if you've been typing for 20 years then you'd probably be used to the typewriter sort of feel (Although typewriters feel different from M's, they've still got a few things in common).

[hyperlinked]

I think this comes down to personal preferences and typing styles which is the great thing about having a variety of switches available. Currently I have Cherry Blacks, Browns and Blues and BS. For long typing sessions I find the Model M the least fatiguing. Probably 20 plus years of muscle memory?
To each their own - after you have tested a few different types

The muscle memory may have something to do with it. There's certainly no way a buckling spring switch itself can be less fatiguing given the sharp disparity in activation force. Other factors may play into as well like qualities about the keyboard itself. If I typed on nothing but buckling springs for 20 years, I'd imagine everything else might take extra effort too.

Other possibilities are that you rest your fingers on the board heavily and can't do that on lighter switches or even that someone may type faster on a lighter switch (probably not you though) and get more tired because of improved speed.

[Superfluous Parentheses]

When my HHKB Pro 2 arrives, I can let you know what it's like to switch to that from a Model M.

I expect a fair amount of time before I "get it", but I'm starting to get in more or less the same situation as you; I can just feel I need a less heavy key switch or my finger joints will give up. Currently the model M is still my favorite board, but after that, the black Alps on my AT 101 W seem quite good; they're just too easy to bottom out on and seem to offer no real tactile point at all.

[hyperlinked]

BTW, if anyone gets the impression that I'm not a fan of buckling springs... that's not the case. They'd probably be my switch of choice if my hands could take it.

SuperP, make sure you check out ItlnStln's thread on Topre switches in the HHKB2 vs. in a Realforce keyboard.
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10955

[Superfluous Parentheses]

BTW, if anyone gets the impression that I'm not a fan of buckling springs... that's not the case. They'd probably be my switch of choice if my hands could take it.

SuperP, make sure you check out ItlnStln's thread on Topre switches in the HHKB2 vs. in a Realforce keyboard.
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10955

Yeah, I read that. After I already ordered a HHKB.

But my feeling is that the layout of HHKB is going to work better for me than the standard 10keyless layout. I'll see and let y'all know.

[washuai]

I think you made a good choice.  I'm a little late, but I was going to add that since you like audible feedback, it is important to note that the Kinesis Advantage has a feature, where you can turn on an electronic click, for audible feedback.

[Zevus]

I know how you feel. I really do LOVE to type (I'm sure you do too), but I have to avoid purposeless full speed typing. I had to give up FPS games too because of the RSI. I sneak an occasional game in, but the word you mentioned, "disheartening" comes to mind. I get absolutely pwned now and realize I don't have any skill anymore.

I have the board that you're getting. I love it and it is built like a tank... Mine has been through more abuse than a wise owner should be putting any board through and it's still working perfectly. It's not quite a Model M, but it's got plenty of heft to it.

As you concluded, it might be about as big of a jump as you should make right now. If you like the way it feels, you'll be plenty happy and you probably can't yet fully appreciate the difference between Browns and Topres just yet.

I hope they do for your hands what they did for mine. A good chair and a keyboard tray might be helpful accessories too if you don't have those already, but that's a topic for another day.

I used to play a lot of FPS/RTS games... I'm glad I quit those back about 10 years ago.    I remember owning people like 100 to -6 in DOOM, haha.   I basically just stick to MMORPGs nowadays.   I honestly haven't been involved in any of this speed typing stuff, I didn't realize such websites existed until recently.  It just sucks to realize that even when I put up these 170 or 180 WPM or whatever that I know that I used to be able to type faster.  I guess it's better that the pain is in the knuckles/joints rather than the wrists at least... I think?  haha.  It's not bad enough to actually see a doctor about, since it isn't something that's persistent w/o aggravation (like if I stay away from typeracer/other speed typing sites or routine typing for more than a few hrs at a time).

In any case.. I did get my new keyboard earlier today.  I've spent some time on another speed typing site (rankmytyping) and on my very first try, I got ~170WPM which was better than the ~167 that I had managed on my old keyboard the day previous (in about 15m worth of tries).   I spent about 30m there and my highest result was around a 177 or 178.   I guess the best part was that while there was some discomfort, it wasn't anything like it was before..  I suspect it'll get even better as far as that goes since it'll probably take me weeks if not months to actually adjust to the force requirements on this new KB...  I know right now that I'm hitting the keys w/ far more force than is required.   I don't expect miracles in regards to being able to type for extended durations of time w/ no discomfort at all.. but this is a huge improvement.

I have had a few p roblems (<-- I won't even fix that one) with random spaces being inserted into stuff I'm typing.  I suspect that's a result of me resting my thumb on the spacebar?   Occasionally I'll see some other stray character... I'm guessing it's not a problem w/ the keyboard itself & just how I'm handling it.    The other issue I've had is with hitting the windows key instead of CTRL (I thought of disabling the windows key, but I guess it's better just to eventually adjust to it) & also on rare occasion "missing" the spacebar with my right thumb.  I don't use homerow and my right hand rests closer to KL:" than JKL:"... but I'm sure I'll adjust to that too.

All in all, I'm really happy w/ it.    It was pretty amazing that I was able to beat my best score from yesterday on my very first try w/ this new KB.   I suspect after another few weeks of adjusting to it it'll be even better.... and then maybe I'll try something w/ an even lighter touch.  =p

Anyway, thanks again for all the s uggestions (there it is!) & tips.  

James

(ed:  while i miss my old clicky IBM, this keyboard seems to have a decent amt of auditory feedback as well.. but.... i suspect that the amt i get is probably out of the ordinary since i hit the keys too hard.. haha..... ed2:  oh, i forgot to say, i have found the angle of the keyboard problematic.  the hinges raise it too high, but sitting flat it rests at a much lesser angle than my model M sitting flat.  i've considered fabricating something to put down there, to raise the back end up a few millimeters)

[hyperlinked]

Short reply... On Blackberry.

The stray characters will probably get better with time. If you're coming from a.model M, you can expect to make some accidental presses without even knowing it.

[Zevus]

Can't really find a good place to ask it, so I'll just add it here..

How much would a new in box 1391401 go for anyway?  I have 3 of them, packaged up in styrofoam, with the detachable cable, etc.   I bought five of them off eBay probably about 10 years ago after I busted my first but I've never had to replace the first one I opened (i gave one of them to my brother).

The one I've been using is ID no 5119581, 15jun89, plt no f9.  the other ones have diff dates, but all '89.  don't have specific ID numbers, as they're in "storage" at my dad's house.

[ch_123]

If by any, any chance you have one made 03-JUL-89, I'd give my right arm for it.

[ironman31]

But then how would you use the keyboard?

[ch_123]

Mouth and stick, like a real man.

[Zevus]

Guess what?  I'm switching back to my 1391401.  I'm going to bust out one of those shiny new ones, though.

I still have problems with random spacebars  being inserted into what I type on this filco keyboard.   I guess I'll never get u sed to t.. lol...  sigh.

(btw, amazing how much this site has grown..  I first created an a ccount on here back in 2003 or 2004 and there'd be 3 or 4 users online....  craziness)

[sordna]

What type of switches are on your Filco ?

[zvz]

Cherry brown... the same keyboard displayed @ http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:4370 ... although I note that reviewer says his keyboard doesn't 'click' at all.

One of my youtube videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-muK1hiloc

that was using this KB... the clicks are quite discernible..

Oh, and I'm just trying to find out what email address my old  acct is attached to.  Not this one apparently.  =p

[sordna]

These's aren't clicks. They are clacks (keys bottoming out). Clicks are the noise that cherry MX blues and other clicky switches make in the middle of the stroke, when the keypress actuates (before they key reaches the end of the travel).

With cherry browns if you type lightly you can avoid the noise, something you cannot do with MX blues or IBM clicky keyboards.

[Thinkpad Fan]

It may not matter what keyboard you use.  A lot of problems with keyboards and wrist/finger/joint pain may have more to do with our lousy modern nutrition than our typing habits.  Most people are deficient in some critical nutrients (usually minerals) and their body is breaking down prematurely is due to this.  Glucosamine and condroitin help because people are wearing down the cartilege in their joints, but the root cause seems to be what we eat and how it is grown and processed.  Big Pharma tries to tell everyone nutritional suplimentation is bunk, but they don't want you well, they want to sell pain meds and patentable "cures".  

Dr. Joel Wallach did some very interesting pioneering studies on this, if you are interested.  Up your nutrition, and things may improve - for your whole body.  Thinkpad Fan.

[Zevus]

These's aren't clicks. They are clacks (keys bottoming out). Clicks are the noise that cherry MX blues and other clicky switches make in the middle of the stroke, when the keypress actuates (before they key reaches the end of the travel).

With cherry browns if you type lightly you can avoid the noise, something you cannot do with MX blues or IBM clicky keyboards.

Yeah, was thinking about that after I had posted.  I can still hear a small 'click' even if the key isn't bottomed out, though.

Well, on some keys anyway.  I really need to clear all the hair and what not out of it I suppose... =/

[laffindude]

You can solder in a heavier switch for the spacebar if you're happy with the Filco besides the phantom spaces. Of course, there is nothing wrong with going back to the M.