Author Topic: making a custom keyboard from scratch-price question  (Read 4751 times)

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Offline PlayBox

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making a custom keyboard from scratch-price question
« on: Thu, 09 June 2022, 11:04:54 »
how much would  building a custom keyboard from scratch cost
im talking only about case + pcb + plate or case + handwire + plate.
im also concerned about the handwire as i would want to change the switches and idk if handwire would totally prevent me from swapping keys.
im looking for something working cheap and reliable.
no bhdget yet cos these are plans for the future.
notes: plastic case not metal obviously.
propably sent from my amazon kindle 10th gen

Offline Maledicted

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Re: making a custom keyboard from scratch-price question
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 09 June 2022, 15:19:17 »
Somebody like LeslieAnn would probably be able to give you a rough estimate if you specified exactly what your plan was. Define custom. This could mean a lot of things. What do you consider to be scratch? Do you want to design something entirely yourself? If so, what materials do you want to use? What manufacturing process?

Something I have had on the back-burner for a while now is gutting an existing cheap Chinesium board and handwiring some SMK switches into the plate. The board cost me $30, the switches were free from a recycling board that was cut in half but saved from scrapping. I already have suitable wire around I bought in bulk from a ReStore for probably $5 for a giant spool, and Pro Micros are $5-6 in places like Aliexpress. Frankenboards can often cost even less than buying something cheap off of the shelf.

Even if you mean just mix and matching compatible commercial LEGO parts, the prices could vary widely based on the parts used.

I haven't swapped switches in a handwired board, but I think it would be easier to swap switches in a handwired board than one with a PCB in all cases other than if you had a really nice desoldering pump like a Hakko FR-301. Should just be able to melt the solder on one leg, move the wire, let the solder cool and repeat for every switch. Might need some desoldering braid if the wire is pretty stiff and/or there's a lot of solder present. I believe that LeslieAnn has also handwired hotswap sockets with success if that's something you wanted to try.

Offline PlayBox

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Re: making a custom keyboard from scratch-price question
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 09 June 2022, 16:02:42 »
i want something cheap maybe 200$ max i maybe can get something nice for the price (the budget includes switches keycaps and stabs) i dont really care about materials and manufacturing and im looking for a custom layout that i can't really get in any prebuilt/custom parts i know of (i mean 60% aith f row). something cheap im open to handwiring it just has to work and be quite reliable. maybe some complanies that do 3d printing injection molding etc. like pcbway or something can do it for cheap enough.
i care about only few things qmk/via support ,custom layout ,  good custom keyboard (preferably better than akko pc75b but for 200$ it shouldnt be an issue)
propably sent from my amazon kindle 10th gen

Offline Maledicted

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Re: making a custom keyboard from scratch-price question
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 09 June 2022, 16:40:29 »
Is a standard hot swap 75% out of the question? It would be virtually the same size, and it doesn't get easier to swap switches than that. Not as bomb-proof as soldered, but everything is a give and take.

How much soldering have you done? Soldering a new board is a great beginner task, desoldering a board to swap the switches is not without a good desoldering pump. As long as the PCB isn't a terrible design, reliability should really only come down to the quality of the soldering job.

I have never paid a company to do anything custom but PCBs and plates can be relatively affordable ... if you already have a design. I would worry about the case, although 3D printing or having some acrylic sheets cut to assemble into layers might be doable. If you have a makerspace nearby, printing your own case might save some money. I don't think the switches could be super fancy boutique stuff in any case.

I'm just hoping I narrowed down your preferences enough to give somebody more knowledgeable in manufacturing specifics enough to work with.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: making a custom keyboard from scratch-price question
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 09 June 2022, 23:28:59 »
Very few case/plate/pcb's interchange, 60% is the exception, not the rule.
75% is one of the LEAST compatible of all formats.
Basically, you're going to have to buy all matching parts regardless.

I'd seriously look at 3d printing, you can do a 75% in two parts on most printers.
You can 3d print hot swap compatible keyboards, meaning you can swap just like a normal board without re-soldering. People have already done the hard work, just download and modify.


While PCB's are "affordable", they usually have a minimum order of around 30 so one is not usually all that cheap.
Laser or waterjetted parts can be done cheap, actually cheap, however cheap is relative and each parts adds up fast. You can get a plate but not much more.
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Offline PlayBox

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Re: making a custom keyboard from scratch-price question
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 10 June 2022, 11:31:08 »
Is a standard hot swap 75% out of the question? It would be virtually the same size, and it doesn't get easier to swap switches than that. Not as bomb-proof as soldered, but everything is a give and take.

How much soldering have you done? Soldering a new board is a great beginner task, desoldering a board to swap the switches is not without a good desoldering pump. As long as the PCB isn't a terrible design, reliability should really only come down to the quality of the soldering job.

I have never paid a company to do anything custom but PCBs and plates can be relatively affordable ... if you already have a design. I would worry about the case, although 3D printing or having some acrylic sheets cut to assemble into layers might be doable. If you have a makerspace nearby, printing your own case might save some money. I don't think the switches could be super fancy boutique stuff in any case.

I'm just hoping I narrowed down your preferences enough to give somebody more knowledgeable in manufacturing specifics enough to work with.
yes 75% is out of question im looking for a custom layout. ill be buying a 75% keyboard so why have 2? also shy have something that someone already made when you can have something yours.
i never did soldering though but ill practice before swapping the switches in my brothers keyboard.
i also never paid company for custom stuff too but i am looking for pcb onyly alo i can do handwire though. i'll be going for a budget so 3d printed case/ stacked acrylic is a go in this build. for switches soemthing more fancy than akko cs jelly switches. plate can be from some sort of plastic that doesn't really matter fr4, pom, polycarb etc.
its just a one time project for my personal use but if someone will want this layout why not start a gb for it then (like its never gonna happen)
propably sent from my amazon kindle 10th gen

Offline PlayBox

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Re: making a custom keyboard from scratch-price question
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 10 June 2022, 11:40:32 »
Very few case/plate/pcb's interchange, 60% is the exception, not the rule.
75% is one of the LEAST compatible of all formats.
Basically, you're going to have to buy all matching parts regardless.

I'd seriously look at 3d printing, you can do a 75% in two parts on most printers.
You can 3d print hot swap compatible keyboards, meaning you can swap just like a normal board without re-soldering. People have already done the hard work, just download and modify.


While PCB's are "affordable", they usually have a minimum order of around 30 so one is not usually all that cheap.
Laser or waterjetted parts can be done cheap, actually cheap, however cheap is relative and each parts adds up fast. You can get a plate but not much more.
im not talking about a typical layout i mean a custom layout. (a 60% with f row or a 75% without arrow keys and nav cluster)
i can 3d print a case cut a plate out and do handwire.
idk what do you mean by 3d printing hot swap compatible keyboards
propably sent from my amazon kindle 10th gen

Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: making a custom keyboard from scratch-price question
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 10 June 2022, 11:43:59 »
Leslieann made a 3D printed hotswap board, this is the thread about it  :)
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Offline butre

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Re: making a custom keyboard from scratch-price question
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 10 June 2022, 14:11:59 »
I have done it for quite literally negative money.  I built and sold black cherry pie switches for $1.80 each, sold all the Cream housings to a guy making pacos, used the JWK tops and stems with the Cherry bottoms, and handwired them all into a 3D printed 40% case from thingiverse.  total cost of the project not including time or electricity was approximately ($120)

Offline PlayBox

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Re: making a custom keyboard from scratch-price question
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 10 June 2022, 15:35:38 »
Leslieann made a 3D printed hotswap board, this is the thread about it  :)
wow that really caught my attention i think i can try that but before i think about making it i first need to know how to make files for 3d printing and cutting (plate) :)
propably sent from my amazon kindle 10th gen

Offline PlayBox

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Re: making a custom keyboard from scratch-price question
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 10 June 2022, 15:38:48 »
I have done it for quite literally negative money.  I built and sold black cherry pie switches for $1.80 each, sold all the Cream housings to a guy making pacos, used the JWK tops and stems with the Cherry bottoms, and handwired them all into a 3D printed 40% case from thingiverse.  total cost of the project not including time or electricity was approximately ($120)
i don't have any switches sadly but i think its doable in my budget though.
it wont be 40% not really into these but thx for answer in thread
propably sent from my amazon kindle 10th gen

Offline Leslieann

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Re: making a custom keyboard from scratch-price question
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 10 June 2022, 16:59:07 »
Leslieann made a 3D printed hotswap board, this is the thread about it  :)
wow that really caught my attention i think i can try that but before i think about making it i first need to know how to make files for 3d printing and cutting (plate) :)
Thanks!

Honestly, skip the plate.
It's not really in your budget, even if you own a 3d printer.  Between stabs, caps, switches, and plastic you've eaten up too much of your budget for a custom plate. You might get one on Ebay or something but not a custom one. BUT... If you use a 3d printed system hot swap system like I did (and there's many others), with the right design the board will be just as stiff and stable as one with a metal plate, you just need to make sure it's engineered well. My 65% has almost the same rigidity as most off the shelf plastic TKL boards with a metal plate. Really, it's that good, sounds even better (due to the PETG and no hollow voids). I've done a few boards now, none use a metal plate, they don't need it.

I did mine in Tinkercad,  it's like using Lego, you can learn it in minutes, normal CAD takes days, weeks, months. Granted, I'm waaaaaay beyond beginner with it but you just gotta think how to accomplish what you want and work your way to it.


Realistically,
Unless you have access to a woodshop, cnc, mill, laser or water jet, this is your only way to get this done for under $200 using a complete custom layout. You MUST own the tools and do it yourself to get to this price range regardless of materials used. Even paying for 3d printing will quickly exhaust your budget. While not cheap, no custom work is, it's actually cheaper and more obtainable than ever before.

Good luck and post pics when you you get it done (or get stuck).
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Offline PlayBox

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  • Posts: 199
Re: making a custom keyboard from scratch-price question
« Reply #12 on: Sat, 11 June 2022, 03:30:06 »
Leslieann made a 3D printed hotswap board, this is the thread about it  :)
wow that really caught my attention i think i can try that but before i think about making it i first need to know how to make files for 3d printing and cutting (plate) :)
Thanks!

Honestly, skip the plate.
It's not really in your budget, even if you own a 3d printer.  Between stabs, caps, switches, and plastic you've eaten up too much of your budget for a custom plate. You might get one on Ebay or something but not a custom one. BUT... If you use a 3d printed system hot swap system like I did (and there's many others), with the right design the board will be just as stiff and stable as one with a metal plate, you just need to make sure it's engineered well. My 65% has almost the same rigidity as most off the shelf plastic TKL boards with a metal plate. Really, it's that good, sounds even better (due to the PETG and no hollow voids). I've done a few boards now, none use a metal plate, they don't need it.

I did mine in Tinkercad,  it's like using Lego, you can learn it in minutes, normal CAD takes days, weeks, months. Granted, I'm waaaaaay beyond beginner with it but you just gotta think how to accomplish what you want and work your way to it.


Realistically,
Unless you have access to a woodshop, cnc, mill, laser or water jet, this is your only way to get this done for under $200 using a complete custom layout. You MUST own the tools and do it yourself to get to this price range regardless of materials used. Even paying for 3d printing will quickly exhaust your budget. While not cheap, no custom work is, it's actually cheaper and more obtainable than ever before.

Good luck and post pics when you you get it done (or get stuck).
is ordering a 3d print from somewhere near me too expenive? im talking about 3d printed/ cut from polycard or something plate not metal thanks for advice on making it. il post the pics when ill start working on it.
i think the budget could go up to something around 250$
propably sent from my amazon kindle 10th gen

Offline Leslieann

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Re: making a custom keyboard from scratch-price question
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 12 June 2022, 12:53:21 »
is ordering a 3d print from somewhere near me too expenive? im talking about 3d printed/ cut from polycard or something plate not metal thanks for advice on making it. il post the pics when ill start working on it.
i think the budget could go up to something around 250$

It's absolutely out of your range (but I have a suggestion at the end)
While 3d printing is cheap in terms of manufacturing, it's not cheap if you have to pay someone to do it for you, for several reasons. Laser/water doesn't care that much what you cut, the only cost difference is material and that's not enough.

For all manufacturing you need to pay for their time and service, wear and tear etc... It's not like you just press start and it happens, there is work involved in machine prep, file prep, deciding certain parameters. There is some skill involved. Easy to learn but it still takes time and mistakes happen and they'd like to get reimbursed for the machine. If they are doing outside work, they're doing it for money.

Some places schools, libraries and hacker or maker spaces will let you come in and use their laser or 3d printer for free but you still need to pay for materials (cheap), you also need to learn to use it and that takes time, and with others wanting to use it, it will take a while to get the necessary skills. Worse, there's no chance in heck that you get more than the smallest part of a keyboard (the plate) printed within the hours they're open. It can take a LOOONG time. I think my 65% base took 20 hours and that was on a commercial grade, high speed printer, it would have taken closer to 48 hours on a normal 3d printer and being a fire hazard most will not let it run overnight without supervision.


And then there's YOU, you have no CAD, no manufacturing and no 3d printing skills.
As I said, you don't just press a button and you have to learn what can and cannot be done on a 3d printer and how to get the best results. While it is a LOT better and more capable today, it's still not the same as 3d printing for CNC milling and it's not the same as just going out to your garage and start cutting wood or something by hand. 3d printers cannot do certain things, they need tolerances or clearance, overhangs sometimes need supports, and if you do make a mistake, and you will, there is no going back and cutting a second time like with wood, you have to go back, modify the design in cad and re-print the whole thing again. Sometimes you can fix a print but most of the time it means starting over.

It's also entirely possible to design your way into a corner.
You start adding holes for fasteners and realize later there's no way to reach them, for example you bolt the plate to the top with screw heads covered by the bottom, and also bolt the plate to the bottom with the screw heads covered by the top. Looks great and it works in CAD, it doesn't work when you try and screw them in with a screw driver and the screw head is covered. Ever work on a car and find changing a headlight means pulling the battery or removing a bumper (yes this is real), it's because the engineer designed it in CAD and had no reference as to the bumper or battery being in the way. Even someone experienced is going to need several iterations before they get it right. All manufacturing uses prototypes for this reason. It's super easy to forget a screw, design yourself into a corner, things don't fit quite right, limits of manufacturing etc all boil over. You can have 50 people check over the design and verify it's correct but still miss a screw hole. It happens.

All of this is to say the odds of you designing a keyboard and having it work the first time is literally ZERO.



So what to do...
If you can spend $250, buy a printer and print it yourself. I believe Ender has a $99 printer that is decent, not great, but usable and you can upgrade it later (often using it to make better parts). Buy that, some plastic and get to learning. Yes it will take time and you may eventually go over budget because you will be able to alter it as many times as you want, but you will end up with a much better keyboard in the end. Exactly as you want. You may get this built and find it's absolutely horrible and what you thought you wanted, isn't. Now you can just make a change, re-print it, re-use your parts and you're only out say $5. Don't like that one, try something else. When all it costs is time, a little plastic and some electricity you're free to experiment and make a lot more mistakes.

The bad news on this approach is it will take a little longer and during that time odds are you will go over budget because of revisions, learning etc, but it also means you don't need all of the money up front. Get the printer, a spare switch, some stabs, plastic and a controller and you're in business to get started. By the time you have a working design you'll have earned the rest of the money to buy your switches and caps.

Get good and make stuff for those around you and you can make enough or save enough by making gifts instead of buying them and that the printer will pay for itself in a short time. I've made tons of earrings and trinkets and things for people, saved me a bunch of money on gifts.
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Offline granola bar enthusiast

  • Posts: 316
  • Location: USA
Re: making a custom keyboard from scratch-price question
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 15 June 2022, 08:17:20 »
i know i am nowhere near qualified to talk about this but, you could check out PCBWay if you have a CAD file for the PCB and/or case.
They have options for 3d printing and if your a billionaire CNC'ing and they have price estimates too. wow this really sounds like an ad

« Last Edit: Wed, 15 June 2022, 08:19:16 by granola bar enthusiast »

Offline Leslieann

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Re: making a custom keyboard from scratch-price question
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 15 June 2022, 11:10:03 »
i know i am nowhere near qualified to talk about this but, you could check out PCBWay if you have a CAD file for the PCB and/or case.
They have options for 3d printing and if your a billionaire CNC'ing and they have price estimates too. wow this really sounds like an ad
I think you missed  where the budget was $200, maybe $250.

Even 3d printing due to the size isn't going to be cheap and few people, plastics, and printers can handle a print this size (in one piece).
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Offline PlayBox

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 199
Re: making a custom keyboard from scratch-price question
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 15 June 2022, 16:03:32 »
hello ppl of geekhack i consider this thread as ended. i learned a lot about this type of project im happy to use it in the future for this project you were very helpful. i was aware that it would be hard but not that hard. i see you were talking about printing it in one piece it doesn't need to be i shouldnt be stubborn about the plate i also will consder a 3d printer to print it. your help will be really appreciated and i hope i will not fail ill take my time to learn soldering cad etc.
bye and thx again
propably sent from my amazon kindle 10th gen

Offline granola bar enthusiast

  • Posts: 316
  • Location: USA
Re: making a custom keyboard from scratch-price question
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 16 June 2022, 08:29:52 »
i know i am nowhere near qualified to talk about this but, you could check out PCBWay if you have a CAD file for the PCB and/or case.
They have options for 3d printing and if your a billionaire CNC'ing and they have price estimates too. wow this really sounds like an ad
I think you missed  where the budget was $200, maybe $250.

Even 3d printing due to the size isn't going to be cheap and few people, plastics, and printers can handle a print this size (in one piece).

they can get a bakeneko cnc'ed with plastic for 89 bucks. not what they are looking for, but its doable.

ok I'm going to stop now
« Last Edit: Thu, 16 June 2022, 08:34:28 by granola bar enthusiast »