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Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #100 on: Fri, 10 April 2015, 01:49:18 »
It's back!!!

The Chinese Grand Prix
Looks like half way through P2 that the Merc's have found the pace again but Ferrari arnt too far back and still clearly the best of the rest!

Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #101 on: Fri, 10 April 2015, 03:55:34 »
The results from Practice 2 of The Chinese Grand Prix



Really interesting that McLaren have managed to do so well in the session, hope that means that we can finally see Alonso and Button getting mixed up in the fun and games of the mid field this weekend! Also what happened to Nico, miles behind his team mate and stuck in the cluster of Ferrari's and Red Bull's...


So for the Weekend UK Times and TV Coverage;


Saturday 11 April 2015

Chinese Grand Prix third practice live   Sky Sports F1   05:00   
Chinese Grand Prix qualifying live   Sky Sports F1   08:00   


Sunday 12 April 2015

Chinese Grand Prix live   Sky Sports F1   07:00
WEC Six Hours of Silverstone   Motors TV  12:00
« Last Edit: Fri, 10 April 2015, 05:31:17 by baldgye »

Offline Dihedral

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #102 on: Fri, 10 April 2015, 08:15:19 »

Offline katushkin

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #103 on: Fri, 10 April 2015, 09:45:01 »
The results from Practice 2 of The Chinese Grand Prix

Show Image


Really interesting that McLaren have managed to do so well in the session, hope that means that we can finally see Alonso and Button getting mixed up in the fun and games of the mid field this weekend! Also what happened to Nico, miles behind his team mate and stuck in the cluster of Ferrari's and Red Bull's...


So for the Weekend UK Times and TV Coverage;


Saturday 11 April 2015

Chinese Grand Prix third practice live   Sky Sports F1   05:00   
Chinese Grand Prix qualifying live   Sky Sports F1   08:00   


Sunday 12 April 2015

Chinese Grand Prix live   Sky Sports F1   07:00
WEC Six Hours of Silverstone   Motors TV  12:00

I love pretty much everything about that board. If that's how the race finished on Sunday I would be really really happy. Kimi up top again, Lewis winning, McLaren doing well (with JB ahead of Alonso) and Rosberg lagging behind. Awesome stuff.

Highlights are on the BBC too (because **** BSkyB)

Qualifying Highlights, 13:00-14:15, BBC One

Race Highlights, 14:00-15:55, BBC One

Can we get them to build the Alps ten feet higher and get Cherry to pay for it?
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Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #104 on: Fri, 10 April 2015, 09:45:49 »
yeah... but **** highlights more

Offline katushkin

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #105 on: Fri, 10 April 2015, 09:52:46 »
yeah... but **** highlights more

Nah, I can't justify lining that crook's pocket with a ridiculous monthly fee when I can stream it illegally or watch it on the BBC :)
Can we get them to build the Alps ten feet higher and get Cherry to pay for it?
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Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #106 on: Fri, 10 April 2015, 09:53:44 »
yeah... but **** highlights more

Nah, I can't justify lining that crook's pocket with a ridiculous monthly fee when I can stream it illegally or watch it on the BBC :)

You know, if you take the end off that sentence the same applies to pretty much, everything lol

Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #107 on: Sat, 11 April 2015, 01:49:19 »
Quali predictions

Hamilton
Vettel
Rikkonen
Rosberg
Ricciardo
Bottas
Massa
Kavyat
Nasr
Alonso

The rest

Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #108 on: Sat, 11 April 2015, 03:08:32 »
I'm bad at predictions

Offline katushkin

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #109 on: Sat, 11 April 2015, 07:39:36 »
Yeah, that's pretty bad. Surprised McLaren did so bad again.
Can we get them to build the Alps ten feet higher and get Cherry to pay for it?
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Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #110 on: Sat, 11 April 2015, 08:03:06 »
Yeah, that's pretty bad. Surprised McLaren did so bad again.

they have good race pace I'm told so let's see if they can make there way up there

Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #111 on: Sat, 11 April 2015, 17:58:04 »
TOMORROW 7AM RACE START

http://gfycat.com/HoarseHideousGardensnake


LETS GET ALL BUTTERY
ALONSO AND BUTTON FOR POINTS
LEWIS FOR SECOND WIN OF THE SEASON
ROSBERG WILL TEARS
KIMI BE LUCKY

NN

Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #112 on: Sun, 12 April 2015, 02:46:08 »
Domination, shame how it ended but I don't think it actually changed anything.

Number 1 Nico fan'  http://www.reddit.com/user/jetshockeyfan



Pretty funny to see Nico's post race anger and Lewis's replies haha 3x WDC ezpz
« Last Edit: Sun, 12 April 2015, 04:37:54 by baldgye »

Offline Dihedral

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #113 on: Sun, 12 April 2015, 13:35:43 »
Domination, shame how it ended but I don't think it actually changed anything.

Number 1 Nico fan'  http://www.reddit.com/user/jetshockeyfan



Pretty funny to see Nico's post race anger and Lewis's replies haha 3x WDC ezpz

The fanboy is strong in /r/f1

Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #114 on: Mon, 13 April 2015, 01:27:10 »
Domination, shame how it ended but I don't think it actually changed anything.

Number 1 Nico fan'  http://www.reddit.com/user/jetshockeyfan



Pretty funny to see Nico's post race anger and Lewis's replies haha 3x WDC ezpz

The fanboy is strong in /r/f1

You have no idea lmao after Nico posted that video reply to a Twitter guy Nico's number one fan got half his **** gilded hahahahaha despite it still being bull**** hahaha

Offline Dihedral

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #115 on: Mon, 13 April 2015, 03:25:36 »
Domination, shame how it ended but I don't think it actually changed anything.

Number 1 Nico fan'  http://www.reddit.com/user/jetshockeyfan



Pretty funny to see Nico's post race anger and Lewis's replies haha 3x WDC ezpz

The fanboy is strong in /r/f1

You have no idea lmao after Nico posted that video reply to a Twitter guy Nico's number one fan got half his **** gilded hahahahaha despite it still being bull**** hahaha

There are two problems in /r/f1 - fanboys, and people who spend their lives getting angry at fanboys.

Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #116 on: Mon, 13 April 2015, 04:28:16 »
Domination, shame how it ended but I don't think it actually changed anything.

Number 1 Nico fan'  http://www.reddit.com/user/jetshockeyfan



Pretty funny to see Nico's post race anger and Lewis's replies haha 3x WDC ezpz

The fanboy is strong in /r/f1

You have no idea lmao after Nico posted that video reply to a Twitter guy Nico's number one fan got half his **** gilded hahahahaha despite it still being bull**** hahaha

There are two problems in /r/f1 - fanboys, and people who spend their lives getting angry at fanboys.

actually its the fanboys and the haters... Lewis gets so much insane levels of hate... it's kinda silly... but I guess it's all part of the circle jerk that people seem to think is just a reddit thing lol

Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #117 on: Mon, 13 April 2015, 06:36:22 »

Offline Dihedral

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #118 on: Mon, 13 April 2015, 07:08:40 »

Offline evolveS

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #119 on: Fri, 17 April 2015, 17:04:02 »
Bahrain GP
Q: L. Hamilton
1: L. Hamilton
2. S. Vettel
3. N. Rosberg

(number of Renault PU failures during race weekend: 2)
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Offline katushkin

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #120 on: Fri, 17 April 2015, 17:11:11 »
Bahrain GP
Q: L. Hamilton
1: L. Hamilton
2. S. Vettel
3. N. Rosberg

(number of Renault PU failures during race weekend: 2)

I think only one this weekend. I think they are slowly getting better.

Hopefully Kimi is as good in the race as he was in practice.
Can we get them to build the Alps ten feet higher and get Cherry to pay for it?
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Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #121 on: Sat, 18 April 2015, 11:22:05 »
Hahahahaha Nico

Offline katushkin

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #122 on: Sat, 18 April 2015, 15:49:37 »
Hahahahaha Nico

I bet Kimi will kill him off the line tomorrow as well. It's gonna be a good year for Lewis.
Can we get them to build the Alps ten feet higher and get Cherry to pay for it?
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Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #123 on: Sun, 19 April 2015, 11:57:50 »
Hahahahaha Nico

I bet Kimi will kill him off the line tomorrow as well. It's gonna be a good year for Lewis.

Alright there Mr Future


Yeah Nico is done, now the fight for second place is properly on though.
Love that 'PerVettel' made three mistakes, ****ed his wing and ruined his own race today haha

Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #124 on: Sun, 19 April 2015, 13:39:37 »
Have to say, I ****ing hate the culture Reddit has created and nurtured through the design of its site. The circle jerk is so ****ing strong across subs the content that those subs generate or gather becomes worse and worse and more and more meaningless. Subs that used to have valuable information and opinions just become ****holes.

Offline katushkin

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #125 on: Sun, 19 April 2015, 14:36:50 »
Have to say, I ****ing hate the culture Reddit has created and nurtured through the design of its site. The circle jerk is so ****ing strong across subs the content that those subs generate or gather becomes worse and worse and more and more meaningless. Subs that used to have valuable information and opinions just become ****holes.

Yeah, I've just stopped reading comments on Reddit and just use it for the pictures and the news links.

Could not have wished for a better result in the race today. First podium for Kimi, Lewis win, and Nico cracking under pressure again. It's not that I don't like Nico, it's just that he is probably to only real challenge to Lewis this year as well (as well as Ferrari are doing, I still think Mercedes will win) and it's good to see his flaws.

Also, how hilarious was the engine blowout for Red Bull  :))
Can we get them to build the Alps ten feet higher and get Cherry to pay for it?
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Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #126 on: Sun, 19 April 2015, 15:58:14 »
Yeah that was pretty funny

Offline katushkin

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #127 on: Sun, 19 April 2015, 16:06:03 »
Yeah that was pretty funny

"There's a lot of smoke from those fireworks coming across the grid..."

Oh no wait, it's another Renault power unit failure
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Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #128 on: Sun, 19 April 2015, 16:06:58 »
And both Toro Rosso's retired...

Offline katushkin

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #129 on: Sun, 19 April 2015, 16:11:16 »
And both Toro Rosso's retired...

Can't draw attention away from JB only doing 17 laps the entire weekend. Not able to start even from the pits. Not good. Did anybody manage to get a comment from him or find out what the issue was?
Can we get them to build the Alps ten feet higher and get Cherry to pay for it?
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Offline katushkin

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #130 on: Sun, 19 April 2015, 21:37:39 »
However, I think the biggest thing that happened this weekend was EJ's interview with Bernie.

He said he would step down if Audi were to make a genuine attempt to get into the sport, which is ****ing fantastic. I think he is systematically destroying the sport piece by piece, and a massive cash injection from the VAG would be amazing for the sport. I mean, just look at what they've done at Le Mans.
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Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #131 on: Mon, 20 April 2015, 00:11:34 »
Ehh I think Bernie is too easily blamed for a number of things, when in reality he made F1 what it is. I would love Audi to be in F1, but I'm really not sure what benefit it would be for them. WEC and the LMP1 technology is so much more relevant to there road cars...


And Brundle had a chat with Ron on the grid, JB's hybrid system showed that it might fail so instead of sacrifice another engine they decided not to run it.

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #132 on: Mon, 20 April 2015, 01:09:10 »
Ehh I think Bernie is too easily blamed for a number of things, when in reality he made F1 what it is. I would love Audi to be in F1, but I'm really not sure what benefit it would be for them. WEC and the LMP1 technology is so much more relevant to there road cars...


And Brundle had a chat with Ron on the grid, JB's hybrid system showed that it might fail so instead of sacrifice another engine they decided not to run it.

He is focused on money which has got F1 to the pinnacle of motor racing. But that only pushes you so far. For me, replacing countries like France and Mexico on the calendar with countries with questionable human rights histories, like Bahrain, Azerbaijan and Russia, is ridiculous. Not really caring about other historical  tracks like Monza or Germany until they give up more money to host a race, and replacing Brazil with Abu Dhabi at the end of the race, just shows that all he cares about is money.

I don't think Audi would care what benefit they would gain. They have made so many strides in F1 already, it would be interesting to see how they would want the regulations changed to allow them to introduce more innovations.

Ah gotcha. I guess that makes it easier on the 5 power unit rule.
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Offline Dihedral

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #133 on: Mon, 20 April 2015, 02:05:20 »
Audi are invested in wec. They won't switch even if bernie goes.

On another note, does anyone watch wec? I watched the 6 hrs of Silverstone and the different technology was awesome!

Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #134 on: Mon, 20 April 2015, 02:18:06 »
Ehh I think Bernie is too easily blamed for a number of things, when in reality he made F1 what it is. I would love Audi to be in F1, but I'm really not sure what benefit it would be for them. WEC and the LMP1 technology is so much more relevant to there road cars...


And Brundle had a chat with Ron on the grid, JB's hybrid system showed that it might fail so instead of sacrifice another engine they decided not to run it.

He is focused on money which has got F1 to the pinnacle of motor racing. But that only pushes you so far. For me, replacing countries like France and Mexico on the calendar with countries with questionable human rights histories, like Bahrain, Azerbaijan and Russia, is ridiculous. Not really caring about other historical  tracks like Monza or Germany until they give up more money to host a race, and replacing Brazil with Abu Dhabi at the end of the race, just shows that all he cares about is money.

I don't think Audi would care what benefit they would gain. They have made so many strides in F1 already, it would be interesting to see how they would want the regulations changed to allow them to introduce more innovations.

Ah gotcha. I guess that makes it easier on the 5 power unit rule.

What about countries like America and the UK where we imprison people without reason, torture PoW's and convict 'terrorists' in secret courts.
F1 shouldn't be about politics, and while it's a shame there are some great tracks missing from the calender it's also true that tracks like Bahrain gives us great racing, which is what F1 should be about.


And I think Audi care a huge deal what benefit they would get from going to F1 rather than WEC. In WEC they have basically dominated the sport and Le Mans for the last 10 years or so without much challenge. In the last few years, thanks (in part) due to the advances in Aero tech and the Red Bull dominance WEC has seen a huge uptip in viewers. This coupled with Porsche and how Nissan joining the LMP1 HY leagues mean that Audi faces even more competition and has again seen WEC grow in popularity.
There Hybrid LMP1 division uses technology that can be almost directly put into it's road cars (the bit of Audi that makes them money to go racing), and while Porsche is owned by the same group as Audi, it looks like at the moment, with the current F1 rules and regs, it makes more sense for them to say with WEC and develop road technologies further, rather than wast hundreds of millions (what Merc and Ferrari spend) in order simply to catch-up to everyone else.
Going back to Merc, they are a very good example of how to enter F1 and BMW the perfect example of how not too. Merc got lucky with Honda and then Brawn and were able to buy a very good team with Ross Brawn as it's leader, couple that with a huge rule change, Lewis getting fed up at McLaren and you have a perfect storm. Audi would have to play there cards right to get anything close to something like that, and even then would have to rely alot on chance.

I think Audi would be great for F1, but at the moment the sport has bigger issues and non of those are solved by Audi joining the sport.


Audi are invested in wec. They won't switch even if bernie goes.

On another note, does anyone watch wec? I watched the 6 hrs of Silverstone and the different technology was awesome!

I watched the lions share of that race and yeah it was awesome. Started getting into WEC in 2012 and have been watching more and more of it. It's a great series and if the cars and tires can replicate what happened at Silverstone (3 sprint races between the LMP1 cars set up by driver changes) it's going to be a pretty special season.
Also super interested to see how Nissan go at Le Mans and if they can match or beat what Porsche did last year
« Last Edit: Mon, 20 April 2015, 02:19:48 by baldgye »

Offline Oobly

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #135 on: Mon, 20 April 2015, 03:29:53 »
Ehh I think Bernie is too easily blamed for a number of things, when in reality he made F1 what it is. ...

Which is what I'm blaming him for.

Look at the innovation happening in Le Mans, far more than what's going on in F1. If Audi can force Bernie out and get some rules changed to allow innovation again in F1 I'm all for it. IMHO, F1 has become a money-spinning bore compared to when they were running crazy cars like the FW15 with all kinds of interesting tech that could have been developed and filtered down to road cars.

A well-implemented active suspension system is much safer than a stock spring and damper setup and you still have to "drive" a car that has one just as much as one without on the racetrack, so any of the reasons given for banning it are rubbish.

Mercedes developed a rotary valve head for one of their cars, Renault got wind of it, complained to FIA and... banned. Before it was even fully tested. It reduces weight and size of the heads and improves airflow and efficiency.

These are just 2 examples of the plethora of technical innovations which could be making your everyday car safer, more efiicient and more fun to drive if it weren't for the FIA ban-hammer and ultra-tight regulations.
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Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #136 on: Mon, 20 April 2015, 04:06:30 »
Ehh I think Bernie is too easily blamed for a number of things, when in reality he made F1 what it is. ...

Which is what I'm blaming him for.

Look at the innovation happening in Le Mans, far more than what's going on in F1. If Audi can force Bernie out and get some rules changed to allow innovation again in F1 I'm all for it. IMHO, F1 has become a money-spinning bore compared to when they were running crazy cars like the FW15 with all kinds of interesting tech that could have been developed and filtered down to road cars.

A well-implemented active suspension system is much safer than a stock spring and damper setup and you still have to "drive" a car that has one just as much as one without on the racetrack, so any of the reasons given for banning it are rubbish.

Mercedes developed a rotary valve head for one of their cars, Renault got wind of it, complained to FIA and... banned. Before it was even fully tested. It reduces weight and size of the heads and improves airflow and efficiency.

These are just 2 examples of the plethora of technical innovations which could be making your everyday car safer, more efiicient and more fun to drive if it weren't for the FIA ban-hammer and ultra-tight regulations.

Yeah, you know I don't really agree at all. WEC and Le Mans has always been about brand new technologies and it's something they have been pushing. F1 is about being the very fastest motor sport on the planet, but there is a limit.
The F2004 Ferrari remains the fastest ever track car and with any sense, it will stay that way.

There never where 'good old days' in f1, F1 has only gotten better and closer in terms of racing and parity across teams. Things like active suspension were banned because when they go wrong (even at speeds the 90s F1 cars were doing) they can go badly wrong and cause huge huge accidents.
I was talking about this with someone on Reddit a year ago and they brought up an incident where one of the supension struts failed and jammed into position, at Spa;

Quote from: F1 Fanatic
At Spa-Francorchamps for the Belgian Grand Prix Alessandro Zanardi was heading into the ultra-fast Eau Rouge section when a leak in his Lotus’s hydraulic system caused the bottom of the car to hit the track. The car went straight on into the barriers at enormous speed.
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/05/17/banned-active-suspension/

I think there is scope for change with the rules in F1, ground effect is one option, making aero/dirty air less important which would allow the cars to run closer together more of the time, but then so would harder tires that lasted the whole race.
The problem is technology, it is so good and so well refined that all the matierals that F1 cars are made out of, are for the most part, operating well within limits, this wasn't the case with older cars of the 70s/80s and 90s and it's part of the reason reliability is so insane, hell you can see this in WEC too at Silverstone the other week, we had 2-3 LMP1 cars essentially doing a 6hr sprint race.


I agree that the rules are too restrictive and that more leeway could make for more interesting cars and races, but it could also force the struggling cars in the middle of the pack out of the sport, and given that the grid is small enough as it is... that wouldn't be the best option

Offline Oobly

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #137 on: Mon, 20 April 2015, 15:22:50 »
Problem is, those "struggling teams" can't come up with a good idea and then be in the running.

It's all about how much budget they have for R&D, finite element analysis, aero simulation, etc and whether they make good predictions like Mercedes did about the engine formula. There's no space for innovation. It's boring, especially to someone who loves cars and all the oily bits that make them go.

About the hydraulic suspension failure, instead of banning it they could just introduce better failsafes, the reasons that are bandied about banning these promising technologies just can't cover the fact that it was a bad decision, both for the sport and the car industry. The budgets in Le Mans don't give the teams as much opportunity to develop new tech as they could in F1.

F1 is meant to be at the very bleeding edge of car tech, I mean it's called formula ONE for a reason.
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Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #138 on: Mon, 20 April 2015, 15:36:20 »
Problem is, those "struggling teams" can't come up with a good idea and then be in the running.

It's all about how much budget they have for R&D, finite element analysis, aero simulation, etc and whether they make good predictions like Mercedes did about the engine formula. There's no space for innovation. It's boring, especially to someone who loves cars and all the oily bits that make them go.

About the hydraulic suspension failure, instead of banning it they could just introduce better failsafes, the reasons that are bandied about banning these promising technologies just can't cover the fact that it was a bad decision, both for the sport and the car industry. The budgets in Le Mans don't give the teams as much opportunity to develop new tech as they could in F1.

F1 is meant to be at the very bleeding edge of car tech, I mean it's called formula ONE for a reason.

I think it's unfair to say there is no space for innovation, Merc proved that with how they have designed there power train and so have Honda with the approach they have taken.
Red Bull proved it with the things they did and other teams will further down the line.

The problem is that the formula is so aero driven that innovation and design's that maximise aero make racing worse because it greatly increases the problem of running in dirty air, solving that problem should be paramount to making F1 better. I don't see how active suspension achieves anything other than increased lap time and increased danger...

The technology already exists, if car manufacturers wanted too or could put it onto road cars they could, they don't need F1 to develop it further...
If F1 was about the bleeding edge of racing and tech then every one would be running fan cars that pull 10g in the corners and that can do 300mph in the straights, and drivers would be killed in the same numbers as they were in the 60s and 70s.

Offline Oobly

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #139 on: Tue, 21 April 2015, 02:02:14 »
...
I think it's unfair to say there is no space for innovation, Merc proved that with how they have designed there power train and so have Honda with the approach they have taken.
Red Bull proved it with the things they did and other teams will further down the line.

Mercedes "guessed" the engine formula and developed their engines before everyone else did (they devised the turbo / compressor packaging in 2012). That gave them enough advantage in development to become domininant.

All it proves is that development time (to incrementally improve a fixed design) and money to throw at aero development is worth more than anything else in the current regulations.

And look where that Honda innovation has got McLaren...

This all supports my point that innovation doesn't get you results. Money and development time does.

The problem is that the formula is so aero driven that innovation and design's that maximise aero make racing worse because it greatly increases the problem of running in dirty air, solving that problem should be paramount to making F1 better. I don't see how active suspension achieves anything other than increased lap time and increased danger...

You talked about ground effect to make the cars less reliant on crazy aero that messes up the air behind the car? Only possible with either dual chassis or active suspension. Dual chassis increases unsprung weight, so active suspension remains the only way to do this effectively.


The technology already exists, if car manufacturers wanted too or could put it onto road cars they could, they don't need F1 to develop it further...
If F1 was about the bleeding edge of racing and tech then every one would be running fan cars that pull 10g in the corners and that can do 300mph in the straights, and drivers would be killed in the same numbers as they were in the 60s and 70s.

Car manufacturers can't use ground effect since they run on normal roads... which are not very flat like racetrack surfaces. AND they don't have the active suspension systems which would be needed to retain the accurate distance from the ground at all times which ground effect requires, since active suspension hasn't been developed to the point that it can be used on a road car, since it was BANNED in F1...

I think it's fine to have limits for safety's sake, but to make the regulations so strict that you can't even use a different number of cylinders (or ceramic parts, or a different V angle, etc, etc) in your standardised-down-to-the-millimeter engine is ridiculous.
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Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #140 on: Tue, 21 April 2015, 03:38:38 »
But they have to in order to make it competitive for the lower teams. Look at F1 in the mid 2000's Ferrari ran three cars and had a quali engine! Madness!

Active suspension has been tested on road cars;

I don't know the reasoning for it not being used, probably a mixture of cost and safety, but neither of those two things would be problems solved by F1. Road car technologies being tested in F1 is a nice idea, but realistically F1 cars are too far removed these days and all that work is better achieved by the WEC guys.

It's also ridiculous to call out Honda for being bad, they are a year behind, they were never going to catch up a year of development, yes R&D and money make a difference but you cant spend millions on **** and expect to get results. Not to mention the updates they have brought to the car and the engines reliability compared to say, Renault have been very impressive.
I think it's a little silly to say innovation doesn't get results, remember Brawn GP's rear defuser, Red Bull's too for that matter? Innovation is rife within F1, the problem is that innovation can be quickly replicated it then becomes the standard.
 
Ground effect cars don't require active suspension, they benefit from it for sure but it's not a requirement and they would run fine without it if needed in the future. Using ground effect has a goal and a purpose (allowing cars to run closer together and promote over-taking without aids like DRS), what purpose would active suspension bring? If all you want is super high end tech then do we also bring back launch control? Traction control? Where does it end?

F1 is a sport, a show if you want to improve F1 you have to improve the show, and given how good the show has been for the last few years the only things I think you could do to improve it, in the short term, would be to allow ground effect, bigger wheels (18" instead of the 13" 's they run atm) and harder tires allowing the drivers to push all race long.

Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #141 on: Tue, 21 April 2015, 06:10:48 »
An example of what I was talking about with Honda's new engine;

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118626

Offline Oobly

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #142 on: Tue, 21 April 2015, 07:25:50 »
<WARNING: Wall of text.. with some possible ranting involved.>

More
Sigh.... Ground effect is more dangerous than active suspension: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/06/07/banned-ground-effects/

It allows the cornering speed to climb too high with too high a risk of losing the effect due to changes in body height or attitude or many other factors (like breaking a part of one of the skirts on a corner edge, etc), which makes it pretty useless for a road car, like most extreme aerodynamic tricks. While active suspension does increase corner speeds, the increase is nowhere near the amount allowed by ground effect cars.

In essence the primary benefit of active suspension is not having to "load up" the suspension when accelerating, braking or changing direction, which allows the car to be more reactive to the driver's inputs without losing grip. The pressure at the relevant wheel is adjusted to give immediate grip where needed. It does also mean you can gain a small amount of aerodynamic efficiency by keeping the attitude of the car steady in the flow, but with all the bans on underbody designs it won't benefit corner speeds massively.

It can prevent a car from going "out of control" in many situations where a standard suspension system would cause the tyres to lose grip. For instance, in a rapid left-right-left movement, the suspension loads up alternating sides of the car, but it's out of phase with the movement, so can make the car lose control. Active suspension loads up the tyres as the driver moves the wheel (it also takes into account the various positions and accelerations of each of the four corners of the car), allowing the maximum grip for each part of the maneuver. Improves safety. Banning it by calling it a "moveable aerodynamic device" was a bit silly. I mean the entire car is a "movable aerodynamic device", so why not just ban the whole thing.

"Active suspension has its roots in the row over ground effects and skirts in 1981 – and the controversial banning of the Lotus 88.
The teams were searching for means of running skirts down the sides of the cars to generate massive downforce as air passed underneath the car. An essential part of this was ensuring an even ride height"

Which is why active suspension or a dual chassis is essential for an effective ground effect car.

How about four wheel drive? Or McLaren's extra brake pedal? <- this one was completely driver controlled, so couldn't exactly be called an electronic driver aid like some of the other tech that's landed under the ban hammer.

Scenario: Team X has this new innovation that fits the rules and is making them better (and could be of benefit on a normal car if given the opportunity to be developed) - FIA: "Let's change the rules again!".

You say innovation is rife in F1... anything actually ground breaking? Anything that's not ONLY very specifically relevant to F1? Anything that will change the car you buy 5 years from now in any significant way? Like say, fuel injection or turbo technology, known about for ages (fighter planes in WWII were using both technologies), but developed and refined in F1 to the point that further development could be done by "normal" manufacturers and integrated into their cars. What was the last F1 tech to filter down and end up in a road car? Anything in recent years? Anybody?

The rotary valve design is a great example of a tech that could have been developed and refined in F1 and would benefit normal cars. Without the benefit of high cost, high speed development and problem solving found in F1, many technologies will either never see the light of day due to the prohibitive cost to iteratively develop them, or will only come about in many years time, when some technique or material comes to light that makes the development feasible. Active suspension has been tested on cars, but it's an expensive and difficult system to develop.

Even KERS, hybrids and efficient electric drive systems were pioneered by normal car companies before being added to F1 cars. It's all gone upside down.

Anyway, I think we can both at least agree that a little more leeway for innovation would be a good thing. Perhaps?

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Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #143 on: Tue, 21 April 2015, 07:49:41 »
<WARNING: Wall of text.. with some possible ranting involved.>

More
Sigh.... Ground effect is more dangerous than active suspension: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/06/07/banned-ground-effects/

It allows the cornering speed to climb too high with too high a risk of losing the effect due to changes in body height or attitude or many other factors (like breaking a part of one of the skirts on a corner edge, etc), which makes it pretty useless for a road car, like most extreme aerodynamic tricks. While active suspension does increase corner speeds, the increase is nowhere near the amount allowed by ground effect cars.

In essence the primary benefit of active suspension is not having to "load up" the suspension when accelerating, braking or changing direction, which allows the car to be more reactive to the driver's inputs without losing grip. The pressure at the relevant wheel is adjusted to give immediate grip where needed. It does also mean you can gain a small amount of aerodynamic efficiency by keeping the attitude of the car steady in the flow, but with all the bans on underbody designs it won't benefit corner speeds massively.

It can prevent a car from going "out of control" in many situations where a standard suspension system would cause the tyres to lose grip. For instance, in a rapid left-right-left movement, the suspension loads up alternating sides of the car, but it's out of phase with the movement, so can make the car lose control. Active suspension loads up the tyres as the driver moves the wheel (it also takes into account the various positions and accelerations of each of the four corners of the car), allowing the maximum grip for each part of the maneuver. Improves safety. Banning it by calling it a "moveable aerodynamic device" was a bit silly. I mean the entire car is a "movable aerodynamic device", so why not just ban the whole thing.

"Active suspension has its roots in the row over ground effects and skirts in 1981 � and the controversial banning of the Lotus 88.
The teams were searching for means of running skirts down the sides of the cars to generate massive downforce as air passed underneath the car. An essential part of this was ensuring an even ride height"

Which is why active suspension or a dual chassis is essential for an effective ground effect car.

How about four wheel drive? Or McLaren's extra brake pedal? <- this one was completely driver controlled, so couldn't exactly be called an electronic driver aid like some of the other tech that's landed under the ban hammer.

Scenario: Team X has this new innovation that fits the rules and is making them better (and could be of benefit on a normal car if given the opportunity to be developed) - FIA: "Let's change the rules again!".

You say innovation is rife in F1... anything actually ground breaking? Anything that's not ONLY very specifically relevant to F1? Anything that will change the car you buy 5 years from now in any significant way? Like say, fuel injection or turbo technology, known about for ages (fighter planes in WWII were using both technologies), but developed and refined in F1 to the point that further development could be done by "normal" manufacturers and integrated into their cars. What was the last F1 tech to filter down and end up in a road car? Anything in recent years? Anybody?

The rotary valve design is a great example of a tech that could have been developed and refined in F1 and would benefit normal cars. Without the benefit of high cost, high speed development and problem solving found in F1, many technologies will either never see the light of day due to the prohibitive cost to iteratively develop them, or will only come about in many years time, when some technique or material comes to light that makes the development feasible. Active suspension has been tested on cars, but it's an expensive and difficult system to develop.

Even KERS, hybrids and efficient electric drive systems were pioneered by normal car companies before being added to F1 cars. It's all gone upside down.

Anyway, I think we can both at least agree that a little more leeway for innovation would be a good thing. Perhaps?



I'm aware of the problems with ground effect, as with the fan car I mentioned before, but it would be a solution to help make the racing closer than it is at the moment.
Active suspension doesn't really do that and if you wanted to work on that dev work for road cars WEC would be of far more benefit as those machines are endurance and setup more like actual cars.

F1 cars are kind of too far removed from road cars, something that was always going to happen, as the sport got more and more specialized it was going to get further and further away from road cars, and it makes sense, I don't see it as a problem personally.


Like I said I'm still not sure what your goal is with active suspension other than to RnD it for road cars, that's not F1. KERS as you mention was great and I loved it and I hope it comes back along with other hybrid type devices, watching the Hybrid LMP1 cars is a joy, but then others would rather bring back the standard engines of old.




For me, the racing is all the matters and in that regard there are two issues;

>F1 cars are, at the moment too slow. Apex speed isn't that much different at the moment to a GP2 car, which for me is a huge problem. GP2 drivers should be shocked at the difference between a GP2 car and an F1 car, instead the F1 cars just have more power and a higher top speed.
>F1 cars can't battle all race long. I'm not sure F1 has ever had this, but I think it's something that needs to be introduced. The lack of refueling has limited strategies and made it so everything revolves around tire dmg and ware... this could be fixed with tires that can be maxed for almost a full race. It could also be fixed with smaller and simpler front wings.


These are just ideas.
I've been thinking about the performance problem with GE cars and I wonder if a hybrid type fan car could exist that had a fan, but the power of that fan was limited in the corners, reducing the cornering speed to something more realistic and manageable.


this post is a bit all over the place, but I tried to reply to your post and give my own thoughts as they came to me haha :D

Offline Oobly

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #144 on: Tue, 21 April 2015, 15:45:02 »
Y, I agree with your points.

But if F1 is not the place to incubate new car tech that can filter down, then which series is? Whichever one it is then needs to get more publicity so the teams have the money to spend on R&D. At the moment it's F1 that has the viewers and the money, so that's where the development should be happening. It's okay that the cars are very different from road cars, but there are a lot of areas that are applicable to, and can benefit road cars, such as techniques that improve efficiency, grip, safety, etc.

I do miss the strategies resulting from refeuling at pit stops. It made things much more interesting.

Torque vectoring, differential braking, active suspension can all increase cornering speed, but less than full ground effect (and safer). Torque vectoring and differential braking are used on some normal cars to good effect (some Audis have both). I just find it a bit ridiculous that you can have all kinds of stuff on your road car that is banned in F1. I'm fairly certain the best car designers could design a street legal car that can outperform an F1 car around a track and still be safer and easier to drive.

I think setting a max fuel flow rate (with no allowance for "stockpiling" in some temporary chamber or system) and opening engine designs would result in some interesting designs and ideas for efficiency (to get the most power from the given fuel rate) and make things interesting again from an engine technology perspective.
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Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #145 on: Tue, 21 April 2015, 16:41:38 »
Y, I agree with your points.

But if F1 is not the place to incubate new car tech that can filter down, then which series is?

without brutally cutting off your post haha it's WEC, plane and simple. The LMP1 Hybrid category allows for so many variants and layouts, all of which are more relevant to road cars and with the new Le Mans category (which the Delta Wing entered under) car manufacturers have more room to play and experiment.

Offline Oobly

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #146 on: Wed, 22 April 2015, 01:55:58 »
Active suspension was played with by a few companies near the end of the 80's / beginning of the 90's in experimental form (Lotus and Volvo being the pioneers), but when it was banned in F1 and they realised it wasn't yet ready for mainstream use in cars (too expensive and not developed enough), they dropped it. I'm sure that if they had been allowed to continue using it in F1 the companies would have continued to develop it and most cars on the road now would feature at least some active suspension components. It has a big benefit in preventing a car from getting out of control.

Even the LMP1 category doesn't allow alternate engine designs, they have to be reciprocating piston. Not to mention they have to have standard reciprocating poppet valves.

Torque vectoring is forbidden, four wheel drive not allowed, CVT not allowed, no instantaneous gearchanges allowed, amount of energy recovery allowed is limited, etc.

"Active Systems

Unless specified in these regulations and apart from engine
monitoring systems, any active system or function is
forbidden: chassis control,  automatic transmissions, final
drive differential system
, shock absorbers, suspension or
ride height adjustment, four wheel steering, etc. "

It's really not much better than F1 (the only improvement I can see is free arrangement of pistons and only a maximum capacity of engine). And it's harder to get viewers to watch 6 hour races.

Blocking technologies that can benefit road cars is not the way forward, in any form of motor racing. You're going to see more and more systems developed the hard way (by commercial vehicle manufacturers) making their way into racing instead of the other way round. Like I said, it's all upside down. And the car industry (and people who love car tech) is not gaining any benefit from the masses of R&D money spent in the top tiers of racing, like they used to up until the early 90's when the bans started hitting hard. It's insane.
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Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #147 on: Wed, 22 April 2015, 02:09:17 »
wut?


There is a huge difference in hybrid engines and the design and philosophies of the cars.

I'm not sure active suspension would have ever seen the light of day on road cars, to suggest that we would solely off the back of F1 is a huge leap to make. F1 banned it for a reason and I don't see any reason (within your arguments) to bring it back, it would add so much time that it would be mandatory for all teams, the increased cost of having to develop and make it, or buy it from another team, would essentially force out the teams that are atm struggling and narrow an already small field even further.
« Last Edit: Wed, 22 April 2015, 02:13:42 by baldgye »

Offline baldgye

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #148 on: Wed, 22 April 2015, 06:37:42 »
Small amendment: From my understanding Nissan's LMP1 program where going to run an 8MJ hybrid system which was hoped to produce 2000bhp with 4 wheel drive, but due to development issues (getting the thing to work), they have had to scale that back to front wheel drive and only a 2MJ system for this year.
« Last Edit: Wed, 22 April 2015, 06:39:21 by baldgye »

Offline Oobly

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Re: F1 2015
« Reply #149 on: Thu, 23 April 2015, 03:11:06 »
<start old man rant>

More
Citroen, Volvo and Lotus were all developing active suspension systems for road cars at the time it was in development in F1 and some models of Citroen were even released with rudimentary versions of the system (Hydractive) at the time. Citroen continued to develop the system and the Xantia, C5 and C6 had models with versions of it installed and the DS9 may also when it is released, but the development and adoption I am certain was affected by the ban in F1. Competetion drives development at remarkable speeds, just look at aircraft tech in WWII, or turbo, EFI and 4wd during the early 80's where they were used in competitive motorsport.

The McLaren 12C has a form of active suspension and I'm sure other manufacturers will start to implement similar systems.

The benefits of a good active suspension system are numerous... Anyway, it's only ONE of the many useful techs banned in F1 and WEC and I was simply using it as an example.

In LMP1 the main engine is only allowed to drive 2 wheels. An MGU is allowed to drive the other wheels, but it is disabled if it drives the front wheels under 120kph, to prevent it being used as a traction device. So, true 4wd is banned, as is using any type of 4wd during cornering.

There are so many technologies beneficial to road cars which are banned in F1 AND WEC, but yet are present in commercial vehicles, despite this. Audi has torque vectoring with the faster wheel being driven with more torque during cornering AND 4wd with front wheels providing traction in the same vehicle. Jaguar has differential braking in some of their cars, the 12C and other supercars utilise partial ground effect (which is why the 12C needs a "z" bar to prevent squat at high speed from downforce), etc, etc.. The list is extensive.

This focus on hybrids and all-electric is great... If you switch your brain off and don't care to do any math. The energy density of batteries will never approach that of liquid fuel, simply because with a battery you have to carry all the reactants / electrolytes / contacts, etc with you at all times. With liquid fuel, half the mass is in the atmosphere and once the energy has been depleted, the resulting compounds are released to the atmosphere. So you only need carry half the reactants and even then, only the undepleted ones. Fuel cell is a more useful tech in this regard, since it allows you to only carry the undepleted fuel, like internal combustion, but then you have to also carry the conversion equipment that converts the oxidation energy to electricity, plus the motors to convert this to motion (and the fuel cells themselves need a lot more development before being usable in a production vehicle, particularly in terms of durability, cost and cold start times).

IMHO, a better, more efficient engine that can directly convert the oxidation of the fuel to motion is the most ideal. Best energy density, least mass. Of course it should also use a renewable fuel, but that's where the R&D should be going, not to all this hybrid / electric stuff. After all, a good portion of electricity is still generated by CO2-producing systems, so it's not really that "green" anyway, until all electricity used for these cars is generated by renewable means.

Alternative engine materials and designs should be the focus, but that's all hit a brick wall and I blame motorsport. Anyone remember the Polimotor?
<end old man rant>

Anyway, I'm happy for Kimi and Valtteri for their finishes in the Bahrain race, especially after Rosberg's dubious overtakes early on and then cracking under pressure from Kimi later. Was quite boring up until the last few laps, though.

What's nice in WEC is the different car setups, with some being obviously faster on the straights (Porsche) and others in the corners (Audi). Makes for more exciting racing.
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