Truly Ergonomic Unboxing

[Hamblet]

God....

It is real.


How long is it ? 3 years ? 4 years ? It was really *ucking longlonglong time.

Congrats !!!!!!!!!

[Keymonger]

God....

It is real.


How long is it ? 3 years ? 4 years ? It was really *ucking longlonglong time.

Congrats !!!!!!!!!

You're LTTP. I'm thinking of selling mine, especially if this thing ends up selling for a much higher price than what I got it for. Of course I'd already be using it if they'd have that stinkin' firmware application ready...

[Architect]

You're LTTP. I'm thinking of selling mine, especially if this thing ends up selling for a much higher price than what I got it for. Of course I'd already be using it if they'd have that stinkin' firmware application ready...

Mac or PC? If Mac then get ControllerMate in the meantime which works brilliantly, I've remapped everything to my hearts content in addition to adding macros and such. I'm sure there are equivalent programs available on the PC.

[Keymonger]

Well I guess I need some app for this instead of a firmware flash application. Tried Microsoft Keyboard Layout creator but fails miserably for what I need with the TE.

[sordna]

QUESTION TO ALL TE OWNERS:

How do you feel about the "wave", the ring & middle finger columns being further forward than the other fingers? Do you like it, or do you wish it would be better if the key rows were straight ?

[Architect]

QUESTION TO ALL TE OWNERS:

How do you feel about the "wave", the ring & middle finger columns being further forward than the other fingers? Do you like it, or do you wish it would be better if the key rows were straight ?

Didn't really notice it, but I was coming from Kinesis which does something somewhat similar. Now that you mention it I do like it (the hand naturally finds it's place), but what I really noticed at first was the hand curve (curved split I guess you'd call it or something) and how well it fits my hands and body.  

I'm still struggling with the Command-Shift swap, otherwise it fits like a glove. I've posted my mapping around here with a Command-Option-Control triad at the two lower corners of the keyboard. That does place the control key (Mac mapping) a bit outside the fray, so the pinky has to extend farther than I'd ilke, but there's not much that could be done about that I goes and still maintain dual symmetric Shift-Command-Option-Control blocks.

[sordna]

Any other TE owners feelings about the wave pattern?

I'm particularly concerned about typing the bottom row, ie hte ZXCVB keys. When you type the top row, ie the QWERTY row, the fingers are rather straight, and their length differences are accomodated nicely by the wave. However when typing the bottom row, ie ZXCVB, the fingers are more curved and I'm not so sure the wave makes so much sense in that particular position.

[Rajagra]

Any other TE owners feelings about the wave pattern?

Feels good to me, but I think it's more about the home position being more natural. Stretching up/down from home seems easy, but doesn't feel much different to a normal keyboard in that respect.

[boli]

QUESTION TO ALL TE OWNERS:

How do you feel about the "wave", the ring & middle finger columns being further forward than the other fingers? Do you like it, or do you wish it would be better if the key rows were straight ?

I like the wave better than I would straight (however I've only used the TE for short periods of time), anything to account for the different finger lengths is well worth it IMO, be it bowl shape (Kinesis/Maltron 3D) or staggered columns (TE/Maltron flat).

[Columnaire]

The arched rows are essential for the comfort this keyboard provides. My problem is actually that the pinky column isn't curved enough from the ring column: I might have long ring fingers, or short pinky fingers, but I can just barely hit P and Q, whereas I, O, W and E are just a tiny movement away. This keyboard would never work properly without the arched rows. --And that is a bit ironic, considering the primary layout improvement in this keyboard was to do away with the staggered columns.

So in short: staggered columns are bad; arched rows are good.

Like Architect, I also struggle with the shift/control swap, but not in the same way! I struggle with the swap when I go home at night and try to type on my MacBook. Then, I constantly am turning the caps lock on and off!

The TE has continued to be the keyboard of my personal dreams. I'm still looking forward to being able to map one of the two Shift keys to be AltGr (switching AltGr and the right Control isn't what I want) but I really am quite impressed with the hardware. Like the rest of you, however, I am quite unimpressed by the TE business process.

PS another plug for my TE forum: http://trulyergonomicfans.logicmasons.com/

[Architect]

I struggle with the swap when I go home at night and try to type on my MacBook. Then, I constantly am turning the caps lock on and off!

Yup, same problem here.

The TE has continued to be the keyboard of my personal dreams. I'm still looking forward to being able to map one of the two Shift keys to be AltGr (switching AltGr and the right Control isn't what I want) but I really am quite impressed with the hardware. Like the rest of you, however, I am quite unimpressed by the TE business process.

How adept are you getting at using the arrow keys? I'm using it now, but not exactly fast at it yet.

[iMav]

I really need to hook mine up and give it a whirl.   It's hard to separate myself from my Kinesis though....

[Keymonger]

I have mine hooked up but picking up dust. I have two keyboards connected to my PC in case I go full TE but need a normal keyboard with QWERTY every once in a while. At least during a possible transition period.

[Tracer]

So the store is finally up. After shipping and exchange the keyboard is $290 CAD. That's just way too much for this right now. The base price is $229, which is not that much higher than the sale price of $180, but shipping was also free.

[fossala]

They're going to price themselves out of the game. They are a flat keyboard but charge 2x the price of any other cherry mx one.

[sordna]

I agree. They also call $229 - $249 an "introductory price". The high price and the bizarre shift location will be hurting their sales, I'm afraid. They earlier they address these issues, the better chance they'll have to stay on the market.

At least they removed the fictitious reviews/testimonials and imaginary claims of TE being healthier than a Datahand and whatnot.

[Lanx]

i haven't followed the GH-TE convo's much but can't you just remap shift to regular? I thought the remapping issue was really mac based problems.

[sordna]

This issue is not related to the Mac. See the photos, the Shift keys are in the ASDF row instead of the ZXCV row. The keyboard is supposed to be programmable, but only via software which they have not provided yet.

[Lanx]

oh, i thought ppl were already programming it or finding out codes or whatever. yea as much as it was difficult or weirdly isolated in my case of programming that one delete/shift in the kinesis, the rest of the keys to reprogram were easy, without having nasty programs loaded on there.
which is also btw why i have a x-keys ps/2 strip, no programming software needed.

is the TE supposed to be natively programmable? or only through software, if/when they release it.

[sordna]

is the TE supposed to be natively programmable? or only through software, if/when they release it.

The keyboard is supposed to be programmable, but only via software which they have not provided yet.

:-)

[dzd]

The high price and the bizarre shift location will be hurting their sales, I'm afraid. They earlier they address these issues, the better chance they'll have to stay on the market.

I was excited about the TE. But now I find the price, plus all the other outstanding issues, a bit prohibitive. Almost $250 total (including shipping to U.S.). For just a little more, you can get a brand new Kinesis off of a discounted e-tailer. I know - they are not the same kb's - but you know...

Plus - for that price, and given this is touted as an ultimate ergo kb - I think they should offer other layouts like Dvorak or Colemak. I touch type, so I don't always need the labels - but I still want them for certain times. I don't always want to have to place my hands on the kb just to remember where a key lies.

I know I can get keycap labels, but for that price, I don't want to have to rely on labels. Maybe eventually they will offer keycap sets for Dvorak, Colemak, etc.

Anyway - I think I'll wait for them to make some improvements. Or offer more opportunities to try it before you order (without having to pay a total of $40-ish in shipping  charges if you decide you don't want to keep it).

Too bad - I was so excited. Guess I'll stick with my Kinesis for "ergo" needs, for now...

[Keymonger]

I guess the high price is good news for me considering I'm selling mine. Although, it's the blank version.

I'll probably hang onto it until they release that stinkin' firmware application so I can try it out properly.

[fossala]

Wow they are still playing cowboy games.
http://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=3

[WhiteFireDragon]

Does anyone know if standard aftermarket PBT caps size 1x will fit these? It looks like anything larger than 1x won't fit because of the special shape.

[Architect]

Preorder prices were actually between $150 and $200 depending on when you caught it. I got a couple at $150 and bought a couple more after I got the first two and verified how it worked for me.

Expressing my own opinion here - we've all got one and I don't want to argue it, but I think the price is a steal. It's not a regular cherry keyboard with existing production lines, it's a wholly new design and an ergo keyboard. Its direct competitors are Maltron and Kinesis, both north of $300 which I think is way too much. Three hundred for a specialty keyboard sure, but $360 for the Kenisis was a tough one (I only get the Pro because of long term issues with the plastic (just gets dirty) I've seen from the cheaper ones), and I couldn't buy a Maltron (well if the case was a little more attractive I would have). Heck, now I'm considering buying a few $400 ErgoDox's so maybe I'm a fool ... anyhow in that company the intro price is a steal. But to people who have to be on the computer (like, to put food on the table, as in me) and who have ergo issues (again me), spending a few hundred is a NO BRAINER. And frankly this keyboard lives up to it, I've heard all positive so far with one negative. I'm married to mine already, I don't mind using the old Kinesis but I hate using anything else.

Sure the Shift key, you can remap in any number of programs now (I've verified that on Mac and Win) and I have zero doubt the reprogramming FW will be available (no bets on how soon). Anyhow if it is just one guy and his wife their overhead is low, I expect they'll do just fine.

My 2 cents, don't get hairy on me.

WhiteFireDragon - I think the keycaps are special. I did ask her once (Michelle?) if they'll sell keycap sets and she indicated they would be.

[sordna]

The Kinesis Advantage retails for $269 at several places including Amazon and Fentek-Ind. Let's not muddy the waters with the MSRP price of the Pro model like TE themselves are doing to mislead people.
The comparison is: $229 for the TE/browns vs $269 for the Advantage/browns, or $249 for the TE/reds vs $325 for the Advantage LF/reds.

[dzd]

I think the keycaps are special. I did ask her once (Michelle?) if they'll sell keycap sets and she indicated they would be.

Well, if there will be keycap sets later, that makes it more tempting.

...I think the price is a steal....

But to people who have to be on the computer (like, to put food on the table, as in me) and who have ergo issues (again me), spending a few hundred is a NO BRAINER.

True.


If I were to use the TE more than my Kinesis, I think I'd really missing all the thumb keys. They work pretty well for me - but I wish there was maybe 1 more mod key on each side. I really hope something along the lines of Dox's design will materialize and will be goooood...

[Architect]

The Kinesis Advantage retails for $269 at several places including Amazon and Fentek-Ind.

Apologies, I was going from memory. I (mis)remembered $360, just looked up my last order and it was $320 - that's for the Advantage Pro which is still the selling price.

By the way, has anybody opened up a TE? I'm not much into that, curious what kind of plate its got.

[Tracer]

Bah, I placed my order.
Two things I noticed.
1. There is a currency pulldown up top. This will save you almost $50 if you're in Canada
2. The site checkout is broken in Chrome browser. Had to use Firefox.

Update: I was wrong on point 1. I missed the tax calculation. It's actually only about $20 cheaper to use Canadian vs. US currency for Canadians.

[Lanx]

the amazon kinesis deal is 269 and free shipping, a TE english blue will be 229 + 19 shipping.

so really imo there is practically no price difference between a TE and Kinesis- NEW.

you can get older kinesis for 50 bucks depending on the condition, i know i got 3 such kinesis for around that price, one in use, one in storage and 1 cut in half waiting to be modded (again when i have free time), there is no "used" TE for sale and if it will be for sale, ppl will want top dollar for it or even try to "make" money.

of course kinesis palm rests are 20ish bucks as well, Kinesis doesn't come with em (some ppl like it this way) while the TE does provide one.

[Architect]

the amazon kinesis deal is 269 and free shipping, a TE english blue will be 229 + 19 shipping.

so really imo there is practically no price difference between a TE and Kinesis- NEW.

As I said I'm looking at the Advantage Pro at $320. The white and black pros pick up too much wear (particularly in the wrist rest) for me to consider them (I have three Pro's). The TE doesn't have the same surface area and the wrist rest is removable which is comparable, wear wise, to the pro IMO. Of course the pro has programmability but we don't know yet the extent of the TE programmability, but at least we know the chipset and have a dev package for it so you can do whatever the heck you want, if you have the where withal.

you can get older kinesis for 50 bucks depending on the condition ...  there is no "used" TE for sale and if it will be for sale, ppl will want top dollar for it or even try to "make" money.

Comparing a used price from a 20+ year old product plus one that hit the market this morning is hardly a fair comparison in regards to the used market.

of course kinesis palm rests are 20ish bucks as well, Kinesis doesn't come with em (some ppl like it this way) while the TE does provide one.

The Kinesis has a non removable palm rest with replaceable palm pads, the TE has a removable palm rest with non removable pads (you could remove them but you'd have to get factory originals. You can take this feature how you want, but in my opinion the TE is far more flexible. It's a much lower profile, 1 inch versus 3" (highest point) on the Kinesis, which means it's easier generally to not have a too high profile thereby angling the hands. You pretty much can't, or shouldn't generally, use the Kinesis on a flat surface with the monitor, for a ergo keyboard that is horrible with the hands too high and the monitor too low. You have to both raise the monitor and lower (height adjustable keyboard tray) the keyboard. Also, this from the ergo dept at my workplace, one thing they don't like (and warn you about) the Kinesis is to not rest your palms on the keyboard. Bad ergonomics ... which I agree with, but could never break the habit or tendency. I actually considered putting sandpaper or something on it to remind me not to rest the palms while typing. With the TE, at least for me, the hands float over the rests using them for guidance and only come down when I'm not typing.

Either board may work better for different people, having used both I prefer TE now, thats all.

[heuristicist]

Bah, I placed my order.
Two things I noticed.
1. There is a currency pulldown up top. This will save you almost $50 if you're in Canada
2. The site checkout is broken in Chrome browser. Had to use Firefox.

How did that save you $50? I just tried it in CAD vs. USD and it shows for the same price. $229 in USD is still only like $240 CAD after conversion... Since I'm also in TO I wouldn't mind also saving $50

[xsar]

about saving 50$... has anybody received the gift voucher they promised? I have asked by email about that, but did not receive an answer (sent on jan 4.)

[hoggy]

I'm no ergonomics expert, but isn't the monitor too low (by quite a margin) in both cases?  Even if the top of the keyboard is closer to the level of the desk, the monitor position would cause the user to look down at an angle and not straight ahead.

Hang on, don't you work in your company's ergo deparmentt?

As I said I'm looking at the Advantage Pro at $320. The white and black pros pick up too much wear (particularly in the wrist rest) for me to consider them (I have three Pro's). The TE doesn't have the same surface area and the wrist rest is removable which is comparable, wear wise, to the pro IMO. Of course the pro has programmability but we don't know yet the extent of the TE programmability, but at least we know the chipset and have a dev package for it so you can do whatever the heck you want, if you have the where withal.



Comparing a used price from a 20+ year old product plus one that hit the market this morning is hardly a fair comparison in regards to the used market.



The Kinesis has a non removable palm rest with replaceable palm pads, the TE has a removable palm rest with non removable pads (you could remove them but you'd have to get factory originals. You can take this feature how you want, but in my opinion the TE is far more flexible. It's a much lower profile, 1 inch versus 3" (highest point) on the Kinesis, which means it's easier generally to not have a too high profile thereby angling the hands. You pretty much can't, or shouldn't generally, use the Kinesis on a flat surface with the monitor, for a ergo keyboard that is horrible with the hands too high and the monitor too low. You have to both raise the monitor and lower (height adjustable keyboard tray) the keyboard. Also, this from the ergo dept at my workplace, one thing they don't like (and warn you about) the Kinesis is to not rest your palms on the keyboard. Bad ergonomics ... which I agree with, but could never break the habit or tendency. I actually considered putting sandpaper or something on it to remind me not to rest the palms while typing. With the TE, at least for me, the hands float over the rests using them for guidance and only come down when I'm not typing.

Either board may work better for different people, having used both I prefer TE now, thats all.

[hoggy]

Wow they are still playing cowboy games.
http://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=3

Maybe it's private because they don't want to admit that they'll sell your contact details.  Just how much effort is it to copy and paste from another website anyway?

[Architect]

I'm no ergonomics expert, but isn't the monitor too low (by quite a margin) in both cases?  Even if the top of the keyboard is closer to the level of the desk, the monitor position would cause the user to look down at an angle and not straight ahead.

Depending on a number of variables such as the monitor stand adjustability, height of the user, etc. I'm tall and thin so personally I have a tri-level, monitor on a lift, desk and keyboard super-tray, shorter people would probably be OK with bi-level. Ergonomics gets a number of things wrong IMO (such as the 'head grip' theory of workstation setup), but the guidelines for monitor placement are OK in my book.

Hang on, don't you work in your company's ergo deparmentt?

No sorry, that was a story about how I worked closely with them at one point. I've suffered from ergo problems for decades because I'm a software engineer, so take a special interest in it. To tell the truth I don't care about special keycaps, I love the blank (TE's) I have now, no interest in modding them.

[Architect]

I noticed on the Blank 109's that when the store first went up they were "In Stock", then went to "5" the next time I checked. The four an hour later and this morning is down to 1. Seems like so far the marketplace has a different feeling about a $229 ergonomic keyboard.

The blue and red 109's are much less popular, still showing "In stock", which probably means 7-10.

[hoggy]

Bear in mind that while the kinesis is quite tall in places, most of the keys are placed much lower than the tallest point.

[oneproduct]

I noticed on the Blank 109's that when the store first went up they were "In Stock", then went to "5" the next time I checked. The four an hour later and this morning is down to 1. Seems like so far the marketplace has a different feeling about a $229 ergonomic keyboard.

The blue and red 109's are much less popular, still showing "In stock", which probably means 7-10.

Thank you to whoever bought the last blank 109 brown, now I don't have to be tempted.
I want to buy a TE but the price is kind of ehhhhhhh. Thing is, you can't get it anywhere else so there's no choice and there's no guarantee the price would go down in the future instead of staying steady or even going up.

[redpill]

I'll consider one when they come out with the reprogramming software.  Split layouts and such are one thing, but I'm not going to be able to get over backspace and enter being in the middle.

[hoggy]

Architect,

Just how many keyboards do you have?  First of all you pre-order 2.  Then you buy a 3rd from spare stock (which no-one else has mentioned)... Now you have 4.  You also had 2 kinesis boards, but recently that became 3...

[sordna]

Hmm, it would be nice if Architect posts a photo with all of his TE and Kinesis boards together.

[Architect]

I have six, three for my main systems and three backup which will get parceled out for use to various other uses (for work I need keyboards for various equipment and systems). I've got two Kinesis at home and one at work, and previously made do with a Filco on one of the home systems (can't stand the standard format tho). I loaded up while the getting was good, most of them were at $150 (2 preorder) or $200, plus they promised a $50 coupon (due to the delays) which I'm hammering them about. Hence my concern with the ErgoDox, I need 3 minimum, not even considering spares I still have to build them.

[sordna]

I have six, three for my main systems and three backup which will get parceled out for use to various other uses (for work I need keyboards for various equipment and systems). I've got two Kinesis at home and one at work, and previously made do with a Filco on one of the home systems (can't stand the standard format tho). I loaded up while the getting was good, most of them were at $150 (2 preorder) or $200, plus they promised a $50 coupon (due to the delays) which I'm hammering them about.

Can you post a pic of the Advantage Pro and TE side by side?

[Architect]

Sure, why? Too big side by side, had to do top/bottom

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 38123[/ATTACH]

[sordna]

That's a neat photo, you can visualize and compare the hand positions. Hmmm... I would probably buy a TE if the programming software was available and the price was better. Maybe it will be so in the future.

[boli]

Larger comparison pic with non-blank TE including wrist rest in my post on page 6. The Kinesis board has since received the LF upgrade and received some much needed cleaning The "real" Advantage LF is at work now, and the original Advantage at work is being given around for testing.

[sordna]

Just checked it out. Wow, the palm rest makes the TE look huge. In Architect's photo, the TE (without palmrest) looks tiny compared to the Advantage.

[Architect]

Yeah I thought somebody posted a comparison picture here before ... the photos don't really demonstrate the comparative size - you have to see them in person. To me the Kinesis is much bigger than the TE when seen three dimensionally, which makes it a great laptop keyboard for leaning back.

The wrist rest adds an additional 3" to the bottom maybe, and you can (as I do) have it hang off the front edge of the desk a bit without trouble. Since I had to take that keyboard down for the pic I put the rest back on it. Doesn't substantially take up more desk space and I hate to admit it but it all works better with the rest. Plus the dust cover is designed with the rest in place.

[Keymonger]

TE is indeed quite small. It sort of compares to the KBC Poker without the palmrest.