Keyboard for writers, ideally compact

[huha]

I was asked to ask this question, and who am I to decline?

I'm asking this for someone who's been writing a lot on his Macbook Pro's keyboard and has accustomed to it. Yet, some things bother him:
1) No real tactile point.
2) Dual-monitor, which doesn't lead to an exactly acceptable typing position.
3) Reliability issues start setting in.

The current keyboard is okay, but as he's planning to get a new MBP, the keyboard of which he does deem inacceptable, it's time for an external keyboard.

Features it absolutely has to have:
- Clearly defined tactile point. Click action is preferable, activation force required should be low if possible.
- Spacebar has to reach below the M.(*)
- Left of the spacebar, Ctrl, Alt and Windows/Command keys are required.(*)
- No fancy gadgets nobody needs.
- Has to be available in Germany, as he doesn't want to import it himself.
- (*)No fullsize keyboard if possible, there's just not enough space. The number block is not needed.

Nice-to-have features:
- Short throw key action.
- Dark colour (black, grey, ...)
- Bluetooth or USB.
- German layout

Cost seems to be capped at about EUR 150.


Any recommendations?

-huha

[itlnstln]

Cherry ML 4100.

Seconded.

[huha]

The G84-4100's spacebar stops below the N, though.

-huha

[itlnstln]

The G84-4100's spacebar stops below the N, though.
 
-huha

Mine is stops past the M and under the ,.

[lowpoly]

There are two versions, with and without windows keys. Not sure if they're both available. The one with windows keys has a somewhat short space bar.

[huha]

Here's a picture:



Since he needs Windows keys, that doesn't seem to be an option I'm afraid.

-huha

[wellington1869]

ibm ultranav/spacesaver II/m4-1?

[itlnstln]

Does yours have Windows keys?

No.

[ch_123]

Is mapping one of the modifier keys to Caps lock an option?

[Rajagra]

Here's a picture:

Show Image

Since he needs Windows keys, that doesn't seem to be an option I'm afraid.

-huha

Here's a Windowsless board:


I have Scroll Lock acting as the Windows key (using KeyTweak.)

I only bought these as auxillary keyboards for quick control when the main board is KVM'ed to another PC, but now I try typing on them, they are remarkably nice.

[itlnstln]

Here's a Windowsless board:

 
I have Scroll Lock acting as the Windows key (using KeyTweak.)
 
I only bought these as auxillary keyboards for quick control when the main board is KVM'ed to another PC, but now I try typing on them, they are remarkably nice.

I used mine to pack with my laptop, but I'm using my i-Rocks now as it has better layout with minimal size increase.  I still use the ML-4100 on my desk with my docking station.

[Rajagra]

If the Logitech Dinovo Edge Mac feels as good as the original Dinovo Media Desktop, it might be good - BUT it's only available in the US and possibly over the price limit anyway.
Edit> The Edge has a lot more  "junk" keys than the Media Desktop, too.

[Sascha.rb]

Greetings everybody,

I’m the dude huha played proxy for. I’ve tried to register earlier, but well, apparently my mail server is blocked or something. No activation mail, so I had to register again using gmail. Oh, well. Need to call my hosting company tomorrow. It’s 2am here, after all.

(Note to moderators reading this: You can delete the nggalai account, if you feel like it.)

Anyway. Some further input:

The reason I need those bloody keys next to the space bar is: OS X shortcuts. Re-assigning Caps-Lock or Roll-Lock won’t do it; it’s too hard to handle for all those special chars and application shortcuts I use a hundred times a day. So I really, really need Ctrl, Alt/Option, and Command/Windows left of the space bar. Bugger that.

Hence, the 4100 doesn’t really cut it, because the space bar is just too short for my needs, with the required layout.

I have two reasons asking for a compact keyboard: First, my desk is rather small. Getting a bigger one would require a complete overhaul of my office, which I’m frankly not ready for right now. Second, I sometimes have projects on-site, and a standard-sized keyboard simply doesn’t fit into my bag.

But: If there’s no sensible blue MX or other click-variation compact keyboard option, I might go with, say, the G80-3000 anyway. And get a new bag. While repositioning my phone, colorimeter and whatnot. What do I know, on a tea table next to the amplifier. But that’s the last resort.

@Rajagra, for some weird reason, I never liked the Dinovo Edge. The Mac version is available in Switzerland (well, Logitech used to be based there, so, eh), but the thingy just doesn’t work for me.

What’s actually printed on the keys is not of much importance to me. I’m touch-typing anyway; the bit about „nice to have: German layout“ was more for the occasional visitor who needs to get on the interwobble. Who’ll cry angry tears anyway, as, say, @ is located on a different key in OS X than in Windows. Personally, I’d fare fine with a blank keyboard.

A couple of people suggested the G80-1800 in another forum. So: What do you guys and gals think about it? There’s a good chance I might get it with “the click”, but does anybody here actually use one of those? At any rate: a 19" keyboard is perfectly “compact” enough for me. So let’s widen the chase for 19" keyboards.

Cheers, and have a good night,

-Sascha

[molto]

Maybe the G84-5200 fits your needs. It has two Windows keys and a longer spacebar.

[ch_123]

How bad is the import tax in Germany? I think this is probably what you are looking for. I had mine shipped over and it got here in less than a week. Plenty of people have had good experiences buying for that site.

[Sascha.rb]

Thanks, guys.

The filco looks very nice. I called the import tax people a moment ago, and apparently, I “only” have to pay 19% “Einfuhrumsatzsteuer” (as our VAT in Germany is 19% for this sort of item). Definitely on the list.

I’ll call the Cherry dudes this afternoon about the G80-1800 with blue MX. This would be BTO, but perhaps I can save some money or something that way … Unless, of course, people here go all “woah, get the Filco! Now! Damn you if you don’t!”

Cheers,

-Sascha

[ch_123]

Woah, get the Filco! Damn you if you don't!

Seriously, lots of good reviews around here, Im using mine right now and it is rather awesome. Probably the best made of the blue cherry boards. Shipping is about $50 to Europe.

[ironcoder]

The HHKB must be good for something. It's compact and looks great.

[lowpoly]

Yes, no import tax on keyboards here.

The G80-1800 is only available with blacks (linear), IIRC. Easy to mod though.

[ch_123]

The HHKB must be good for something. It's compact and looks great.

OP wanted a clearly defined tactile point, which the Topre switches don't have.

[ironcoder]

Everything is a compromise. If space is a consideration and for a writer who is usually using alpha keys instead of a lot of other keys coders use, I think the HHKB would be hard to beat.

If he's not already familiar with it, it's at least worth a look.

[Eclairz]

G80-1800 are nice if you don't mind linear keyswitches, I have modified mine with blue cherrys however so they are now tactile and clicky. Otherwise there aren't many options within your specifications unless you want to try membrane keyboards.

[itlnstln]

The other alternative is the Cherry Chinese lettered (Blue Cherry) board - I don't know if those are being dumped in Europe at these firesale prices ($64 US - that's a STEAL) though.

From what I remember, the G80-3000s are pretty cheap in Europe, anyway.  Only us Americans pay a premium for these.

[itlnstln]

48 Euros cheap?

I think so.

[keyb_gr]

Maybe the G84-5200 fits your needs. It has two Windows keys and a longer spacebar.

Build quality is said to be kinda lousy though. Still, it is one to be considered, being somewhat smaller (especially thinner but also not as high) and only half as heavy as a G80-1800.

[molto]

Build quality is said to be kinda lousy though. Still, it is one to be considered, being somewhat smaller (especially thinner but also not as high) and only half as heavy as a G80-1800.

I guess you're referring to this posting. I somewhat doubt its credibility...

[Sascha.rb]

Evenin’, everybody,

thanks for the discussion and the suggestions! More to check out.

Update from the G80-1800 front: No dice. Cherry won’t do BTO for single keyboards anymore in Germany. So I’d have to get the linear version, a bunch of blue MX, and lots of time.

Frankly, it looks more and more like the Filco right now. With taxes and shipping, it would end up at about € 130 for me, which is inside the budget.

On the other hand side, I might just try to rearrange the desk and get a larger tote bag so I can buy the G80-3000. But then, that wouldn’t be much fun, would it? ;-)

Cheers from Lower Saxony,

-Sascha

[ch_123]

Frankly, it looks more and more like the Filco right now. With taxes and shipping, it would end up at about € 130 for me, which is inside the budget.

On the other hand side, I might just try to rearrange the desk and get a larger tote bag so I can buy the G80-3000. But then, that wouldn’t be much fun, would it? ;-)

From what I have seen, the Filcos have a better build quality than the G80s, so there's another reason to cough up extra. But yes - they are really worth the money, you'll love it.

[o2dazone]

My Filco's build quality is much nicer than my G80 - The G80 can flex if you depress a key too hard, and the case itself has a lot of breathing room. Not that that's a bad thing, the quality on the G80 is still very nice and solid. But you can feel the plate mounted PCB in the Filco with every keystroke, picking it up, hitting people with it, etc. The smaller footprint is also nice - but you're paying practically double the price for a fullsize Filco over a G80. Is it twice as good? I wouldn't say so...but then it never really scales that way does it (hhkb)

[itlnstln]

My Filco's build quality is much nicer than my G80 - The G80 can flex if you depress a key too hard, and the case itself has a lot of breathing room. Not that that's a bad thing, the quality on the G80 is still very nice and solid. But you can feel the plate mounted PCB in the Filco with every keystroke, picking it up, hitting people with it, etc. The smaller footprint is also nice - but you're paying practically double the price for a fullsize Filco over a G80. Is it twice as good? I wouldn't say so...but then it never really scales that way does it (hhkb)

I find that the G80 (at least with browns) has a better key feel than the Filco.  The Filco certainly feels more solid, but I feel that the lighter caps on the G80 allow the tactility to be more pronounced than on the Filco.  I don't know how Cherry blues compare between the two 'boards, though.
 
For what it's worth, the G80 is quieter as well.

[itlnstln]

If I had a camera, I would take a pic, but the caps on my G80 are definitely lighter. They are about the same thickness, maybe a little thinner than the Filco, and they might be made of a less dense plastic. In any case, the two are noticably different.
 
EDIT:  I forgot to add that the G80 caps fflex more than the Filco, too.

[Sascha.rb]

Hi everybody,

just wanted to drop a quick note I contacted Elite Keyboards today about a shipping quote for Germany. Customs went all “well, as long as the total thing will be < € 150, no worries.” So let’s see …

Have a good one, and thanks for the discussion! I’ll keep you posted.

Cheerio,
-Sascha

[Sascha.rb]

Bugger, seems my childhood-growing-up-next-to-Australians is showing through …

I’m looking forward to the reply from EK. ripster, you mentioned $50 shipping to the UK, so I guess it will be around the same for Germany. That would be perfectly in order for me.

Next task will be to get used to ANSI again. I wonder how OS X will deal with it, especially should I remap a couple of shortcuts I need often …

Cheers,
-Sascha

[lal]

I’m looking forward to the reply from EK. ripster, you mentioned $50 shipping to the UK, so I guess it will be around the same for Germany. That would be perfectly in order for me.

Shipping to DE is $48 and unless you're *very* lucky you'll have to pay 19% VAT (Einfuhrumsatzsteuer) on everything (i.e. keyboard price + shipping costs).  I've had several boards sent to me from the US and customs charged me every single time, no matter what the value was.

The Filco mini was $115+$48 = 120€, so I had to pay customs about 23€ VAT.

[itlnstln]

Einfuhrumsatzsteuer

Bless you.
 
Or should I say, "Gesundheit."

[sixty]

Lol. Almost!

Also yes, all of my Boards from the US have been "busted" at the customs every single time so far. An exception are the blank tenkeyless which are for some reason missing in action and appear to be stuck in Belgium since the 26th. Sigh.

Majestouch however is as helpful as always and already send an inquiry to USPS to investigate the case. DHL Germany is clueless and only could tell me "we lost trace of it in Belgium"... yes I can see as much from the online tracking too, retards!

On topic: You will surely enjoy the Filco board! If you actually end up using the US-International layout full time you will get used to it pretty quick. I've been using it exclusively since like 10 years now and probably still almost reach the same WPM as if I was using a proper German layout.

[lowpoly]

3rding the customs experiences. Here, they also want to see a printed payment confirmation, ebay auction #, something like that. Courtesy invoices and falsely declared gifts don't fly very well.

[talis]

My most expensive shipping from the past months, the Filco's, where delivered by FexEx in a few days with no extra costs whatsoever.

FedEx didn't try billing me for the customs/duty until almost 2 weeks after I received the package, and the bill came via normal post, so there's still a chance that additional fees will show up.

[Sascha.rb]

Hi there,

this message was brought to you courtesy of the Filco Tenkeyless (blank keys). I’m quite surprised how well it all went …


8-jul-09: Asked Brian about shipping to Germany. Got a reply the same day / night.

9-jul-09: Custom-tailored PayPal invoice came in (to cover for shipping). Paid it.

11-jul-09: Keyboard was picked up by USPS.

13-jul-09: Keyboard arrived in Germany.

14-jul-09: Keyboard leaves foreign customs.

16-jul-09: Letter from the local customs department: Package here, come pick it up.


Customs was fun. As mentioned in this thread, you have to hand in an invoice / proof of purchase. Well, mine said “keyboard”. Now, try to explain to a very, very slow customs official who never had to deal with the English language that, no, a keyboard isn’t necessarily a musical instrument, so it’s perfectly fine there’s a “Tastatur” in the package rather than something from Yamaha. You get the idea.

As lal said, there’s the import VAT you have to pay. In my case, this was approx. € 17. As the shipment was < € 150, no additional customs fees popped up.

So, total cost of the keyboard incl. shipping and the WSAD kit for huha ended up at € 140. Not a bad deal I’d say.

Thanks to Brian for his very speedy service!



So, and what do I think of the Filco? Can’t say just yet; I’ve only been using it for 30 minutes or something until now. But yes! Excellent keystroke feedback! Compact! Loud enough so my in-law realises before knocking on the flat door that I am working and can’t be bothered. Whee!

Have to get re-used to ANSI, though. But I stopped hitting # instead of return after something like 10 minutes, so that’s a start.

More to come later …

Cheers,
-Sascha

P. S. huha – thanks for opening this thread. And actually, there was a little surprise in the package you might be very happy about.

[patrickgeekhack]

On topic: You will surely enjoy the Filco board! If you actually end up using the US-International layout full time you will get used to it pretty quick. I've been using it exclusively since like 10 years now and probably still almost reach the same WPM as if I was using a proper German layout.

I've been using US-International layout for the past 10 years too. I cannot live without it because I write both English and French. The first thing I looked for when I got my first Mac was how to get this layout. OS X has it's own way of doing things for accents, but I wanted to keep a single method for both Windows and Mac. Found one.

[Sascha.rb]

Haha, thanks, ripster. Much appreciated.

sixty and patrickgeekchack, I was considering switching to US layout a while ago. But the special chars I need for my work (mainly typographic special chars) are easier accessible using the German layout. AND, using DE_DE, the corresponding special chars for English are easily available, too. (At least on a Mac.) So it made sense to get used to it, for me. As, well, I write either in German or in English, so …

A propos German, in case some of you guys speak that funky language and are particularly bored, perhaps my “First Impressions” might be of interest:

http://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=460438

I opted for 3DC rather than Geekhack for this non-review as, well, you guys are too, hmm, advanced for what I have to say after only half a day of using this keyboard. No offence meant! I hope to write something up in the Proper Tongue in the not-too-distant future.

Cheerio,
-Sascha

[Sascha.rb]

Thanks, ripster. I almost fell of my chair. Thankfully, it has arm rests, so no harm done.

My favourite auto-translated line:

In short: An external keyboard had her.

It might be only me, but this sounds rather unhygienic …

Cheers,
-Sascha

[o2dazone]

Go back to Russia you damn commie! *shakes fist*

[o2dazone]

[keyb_gr]

Right, here in .de we're basically drowning in Cherry boards (not a bad thing, mind you - that's kept this hobby easy on the bank account for me after the preceding music-related attacks) and there's a decent supply of Ms, but the other stuff is kinda rare. There's the occasional Acer 6312(*W), Chicony with all kinds of switches, and a number of these capacitive BTC boards, but that's about it.

Not a bad review at all btw.
(Though I'm not sure whether I'd agree about resale value. I'd guess this would apply to the Filco, but I've picked up several perfectly fine Cherry boards for a song so far.)

[lal]

A propos German, in case some of you guys speak that funky language and are particularly bored, perhaps my “First Impressions” might be of interest:

http://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=460438

I opted for 3DC rather than Geekhack for this non-review as, well, you guys are too, hmm, advanced for what I have to say after only half a day of using this keyboard.

BS!  This is a very good review that deserves a place on GH's review section.  I agree that experienced geekhackers won't find that many new things in it,  but they most likely own one themselves already anyway.  But your review is perfect for "beginners" looking for infos.

[Sascha.rb]

Thanks for the feedback, guys and gals. I think I’ll sit down this afternoon and try my hand at an English version.

How’s the general opinion about mentioning the retailer in such a review? I think EliteKeyboards really deserves to be mentioned, but I also don’t want others scream bloody murder because they see it as an ad or something.

Cheerio,
-Sascha

[lal]

I think mentioning the retailer including description of experience (regardless if good or bad) is generally considered highly valuable information around here.

[Sascha.rb]

Just wanted to raise the flag that the English version of my review is online here:

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6636

It’s a bit more up-to-date than the German original, simply because I had more time getting used to the Filco.

Cheerio,
-Sascha

[Bollwerk]

Hm. Do I have to contact them? I mean, in the shopping cart there is a shipping option for germany and there it is said, to contact them in the case of international shipping if 0.00$ is displayed for the shipping cost, which is not.

Would be nice to get an info before making a fool out of me asking them for something already clear.^^ I've never imported something besides ebay yet.

[lal]

Just complete the order.  Brian will contact you if anything is missing.  For example I got a separate invoice for shipping costs because at that time the system wasn't prepared for intl. customers...

[Bollwerk]

Ah, that's nice. Time to get a real Keayboard. I don't know which one to chose yet, but I think, it will be a Filco tenkeyless. But Topre is really tempting though. Hmm...

[Sascha.rb]

I wrote to Brian prior to ordering. That way, he knew a weirdo order would come in and had already prepared the magic they work in the background to get an international shipping quote to PayPal.

Cheers,
-Sascha

[lal]

FYI, Bollwerk:  Topre is just a high quality rubber dome and is neither clicky nor very tactile.  So if these two factors are important to you I'd highly recommend the blue MX or white XM Filco Tenkeyless.