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geekhack Community => Ergonomics => Topic started by: spremino on Tue, 17 December 2013, 14:50:35

Title: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: spremino on Tue, 17 December 2013, 14:50:35: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market, then why so many companies try their hand with them? We have the Maltron, the Kinesis, the DataHand, the (now defunct) Ergomatic, the TypeMatrix, etc.

What do you think?
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: SonOfSonOfSpock on Tue, 17 December 2013, 19:01:13: You can make good money serving a niche market.
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: Proword on Tue, 17 December 2013, 19:50:18: From about 1977 Maltron made its own niche, that of people with disabilities, and/or prevention/minimisation of keyboard related injuries. eg

(http://ulva.com/images/maltron-right-hand785x581.jpg)

for people with the use of one hand.

Or a head-pointer activated keyboard for people with NO hand movement.

(http://www.felixgers.de/teaching/hci/pics/MaltronSigle.jpg)

And the fact that the dual hand 3D is not only effective at reducing the incidence of keyboard related injuries, but very efficient for normal work is a bonus.

(http://xahlee.info/kbd/i3/Maltron_keyboard-17420-s.jpg)

Unlike many other manufacturers, Maltron hasn't tried to jump on a bandwagon.
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 17 December 2013, 23:18:17: Quote from: SonOfSonOfSpock on Tue, 17 December 2013, 19:01:13
You can make good money serving a niche market.

You can make chump change filling a niche..

You can make "good money" creating a new market. remember bonds?(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/037.gif)
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: eth0s on Tue, 17 December 2013, 23:22:35: Quote from: tp4tissue on Tue, 17 December 2013, 23:18:17
Quote from: SonOfSonOfSpock on Tue, 17 December 2013, 19:01:13
You can make good money serving a niche market.

You can make chump change filling a niche..

You can make "good money" creating a new market. remember bonds?
Show Image
(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/037.gif)

Bonds? James Bond?

(http://media2.giphy.com/media/n7BOPoQrca4Ra/200_s.gif)

He made a killing.
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: Proword on Wed, 18 December 2013, 00:02:14: Bondage, Jane Bondage. She made a heap of money too I think. ;D
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: Oobly on Wed, 18 December 2013, 04:00:23: It's hard to make money serving a niche market. You have to read the market VERY carefully to make a product that will be both affordable AND serve the majority of the target market well.

There are, however, ways to turn a niche market into a mass market in time, if you really have a product with real improvements over the existing mass market items. So I do see it being possible to eventually see ergonomic keyboards in the true mass market. It will take a single, special product with great marketing to do it, though. I have an idea of what that product could be (sorry, TP, not an ErgoDox)...

P.S. - also not a 007 bondage version of the Maltron.
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: vivalarevolución on Wed, 18 December 2013, 17:02:59: Maybe manufacturers figure that companies and people would invest to prevent RSI rather than treat it after the injury occurs. But asking people to invest and plan ahead is asking a lot.
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: Grim Fandango on Wed, 18 December 2013, 17:07:17: It may be a niche market in the sense that only a small percentage of the population uses or is interested in them. However, most of the planet interacts with their computer via keyboard every day. That small percentage is apparently enough to for this particular niche market to have several players each with their own products. That is all there is to it. If the demand was not there, you would not see them.
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: SonOfSonOfSpock on Wed, 18 December 2013, 18:55:47: Quote from: tp4tissue on Tue, 17 December 2013, 23:18:17
Quote from: SonOfSonOfSpock on Tue, 17 December 2013, 19:01:13
You can make good money serving a niche market.

You can make chump change filling a niche..

You can make "good money" creating a new market. remember bonds?
Show Image
(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/037.gif)

Apparently we have different definitions of "good money". I'm not sure how much money Kinesis et al. make, but it is obviously enough to keep a business going for many years. If they only made chump change then they wouldn't be able to sustain a business.
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: Proword on Wed, 18 December 2013, 19:24:32: I suspect that we're not looking closely enough at the definition of ergonomic. According to the Maquarie Dictionary (used by the Australian legal system) the definition of ergonomic is "designed so as to take into account the bodily needs of a worker in a given working environment".

If you compare the Microsoft "Ergonomic" 4000

(http://doxz7msmg7sxx.cloudfront.net/media/catalog/product/cache/7/image/992x558/c2f10b1d8f5a5ddacfb442b817d0e244/1/2/1256977645317_Large_760_199_large_B2M-000093.jpg)

to the Maltron Dual 3D

(http://xahlee.info/kbd/i3/Maltron_keyboard.jpg)

then I'd suggest that the definition is totally inadequate in describing what defines an "ergonomic" keyboard. Personally I'd dismiss any keyboard which uses QWERTY as being ergonomic.

I think as consumers we need to push for a "truthful"* standard which manufacturers must meet before they can apply this description to their product.

At the moment I think it's just a complete con-job for a maker to slap on the ergonomic label to their keyboard simply because they've split the keyboard for example.

Perhaps a list factors such as degrees of wrist bending, tenting angle, percentage of keystrokes requiring gross arm/hand movement, angle of finger strike to surface of keycap and so forth, and come to a conglomerate figure (eg a percentage) so that the purchaser can make a direct comparison.

*As in truth in advertising.
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: vivalarevolución on Thu, 19 December 2013, 08:16:40: I agree anything QWERTY should not be labeled as ergonomic. I made the transition to the MALTRON layout, and makes a stark difference in the movement of fingers.
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: terran5992 on Thu, 19 December 2013, 08:33:40: Quote from: prdlm2009 on Thu, 19 December 2013, 08:16:40
I agree anything QWERTY should not be labeled as ergonomic. I made the transition to the MALTRON layout, and makes a stark difference in the movement of fingers.

Whats wrong with QWERTY?
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: Oobly on Thu, 19 December 2013, 09:21:58: Quote from: terran5992 on Thu, 19 December 2013, 08:33:40
Quote from: prdlm2009 on Thu, 19 December 2013, 08:16:40
I agree anything QWERTY should not be labeled as ergonomic. I made the transition to the MALTRON layout, and makes a stark difference in the movement of fingers.

Whats wrong with QWERTY?

What isn't wrong with QWERTY? ;)

As a character layout:

1. Finger travel. Most common characters are not on home row (A is on a pinkie, T is diagonal, T E I N R U all on other rows).
2. Finger and hand balance. Too many words are one handed, left and right hands are not balanced in usage.
3. Most common digrams are awkward, some diagonal, some top and bottom row, some same finger (TH, ED, ON, CE, etc).

As a physical layout (particularly 104/105 key):

1. Overloads pinkies.
2. Uneven up / down diagonal finger movements.
3. Forces unergonomic outward wrist angle.
4. Uses both of the most powerful and dextrous digits (thumbs) for a SINGLE key.
5. Forces off-center positioning and far distance to mouse due to edit and numpad clusters.
6. Forces pronation of both wrists to extreme position.

I could go on....

The physical layout is far worse for ergonomics than the character layout, but the character layout is also not the best, ergonomically speaking, and should not be used on a properly ergonomic board.
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: yasuo on Thu, 19 December 2013, 09:25:16: Quote from: terran5992 on Thu, 19 December 2013, 08:33:40
Quote from: prdlm2009 on Thu, 19 December 2013, 08:16:40
I agree anything QWERTY should not be labeled as ergonomic. I made the transition to the MALTRON layout, and makes a stark difference in the movement of fingers.

Whats wrong with QWERTY?
Qwerty and asymmetric staggering made for typewriter :)
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: Proword on Thu, 19 December 2013, 17:28:41: Because of the amount of hurdling from bottom row to top or vice versa the hands are forced to "hover" over the keyboard which involves using major muscle groups in the shoulder and arms unnecessarily.

This video shows the use of a Maltron keyboard but with QWERTY layout.

This video shows the use of the Malt layout.
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: spremino on Fri, 20 December 2013, 08:10:10: Quote from: Proword on Wed, 18 December 2013, 19:24:32
At the moment I think it's just a complete con-job for a maker to slap on the ergonomic label to their keyboard simply because they've split the keyboard for example.

I wouldn't say that manufacturers are conning their customers, but rather that they design keyboards that are more ergonomic than standard ones, yet don't look so different to scare customers; and are affordable, again as to avoid scaring customers. It's a sad fact of life that when people judge alternative products, they compare them to products that they already know. The Maltron is what a keyboard should look like, yet it is perceived as an expensive weirdo. On the other hand, people rave about Microsoft Ergonomic keyboards, while they actually are a quarter step in the right direction.

Quote from: Proword on Tue, 17 December 2013, 19:50:18
From about 1977 Maltron made its own niche, that of people with disabilities, and/or prevention/minimisation of keyboard related injuries.

I agree. Maltron does not seem interested in marketing its keyboards to the average computer user, otherwise it would find ways to lower the price of their keyboards to make them more affordable.

Quote from: Grim Fandango on Wed, 18 December 2013, 17:07:17
If the demand was not there, you would not see them.

Actually, if demand was there, then ergonomic keyboards wouldn't come and go, like so many of them do.

Quote from: terran5992 on Thu, 19 December 2013, 08:33:40
Whats wrong with QWERTY?

QWERTY has been proved to be clumsier than more recent alternatives. That's not a surprise, since other factors mattered in its design, along with ergonomic ones.

QWERTY is fine for casual typists, like the overwhelming majority of computer users are, but serious typists look for professional tools that make their job smoother, and a keyboard layout is such a tool, albeit I won't argue that it is the most important one. FWIW, I don't know any typist who has learned a more ergonomic layout and would go back to QWERTY, unless he or she has to deal with other constraints.
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: Proword on Fri, 20 December 2013, 17:39:59: "Maltron does not seem interested in marketing its keyboards to the average computer user, otherwise it would find ways to lower the price of their keyboards to make them more affordable."

I can see 3D printing technology making a big impact in the field of keyboard manufacture in the not-too-distant future, and this should bring costs down, since labour costs form a large slice of the Maltron price tag. My understanding is that manufacture of Maltron is not outsourced to cheaper countries because of concerns about quality control. Personally I prefer to travel down the "high-cost high-quality" road. I'll be even happier with the low-cost high-quality path when it arrives. ;-)

Joe
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: yasuo on Sat, 21 December 2013, 03:32:16: Quote from: Proword on Fri, 20 December 2013, 17:39:59
"Maltron does not seem interested in marketing its keyboards to the average computer user, otherwise it would find ways to lower the price of their keyboards to make them more affordable."

I can see 3D printing technology making a big impact in the field of keyboard manufacture in the not-too-distant future, and this should bring costs down, since labour costs form a large slice of the Maltron price tag. My understanding is that manufacture of Maltron is not outsourced to cheaper countries because of concerns about quality control. Personally I prefer to travel down the "high-cost high-quality" road. I'll be even happier with the low-cost high-quality path when it arrives. ;-)

Joe
i ever see someone say"maltron can't made from plastic,plate cases body,really complex than kinesis" but i interest for low cost :)
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: Proword on Sat, 21 December 2013, 06:34:57: My understanding is that the majority of labour involved in building a Maltron is in soldering the copper wire matrix for the key switches. I'm seeing 3D printers able to use multi coloured plastics to build, so soon I should think it would be possible to use different materials (maybe a conducting plastic) so that the matrix could be printed directly into the shell. I think that would save a heap of time.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8375/8542231487_a65b524970.jpg)

Joe
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: vivalarevolución on Sat, 21 December 2013, 08:03:12: Quote from: terran5992 on Thu, 19 December 2013, 08:33:40
Quote from: prdlm2009 on Thu, 19 December 2013, 08:16:40
I agree anything QWERTY should not be labeled as ergonomic. I made the transition to the MALTRON layout, and makes a stark difference in the movement of fingers.

Whats wrong with QWERTY?

Too much movement from the home row to type whole words. MALTRON, and other alternative layouts for that matter, allows for many more words to be typed along the home row. Also, too much reliance on the pinky and bottom row with QWERTY. With MALTRON, my fingers are getting less of workout and I do not have to stretch to type many common words
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: vivalarevolución on Sat, 21 December 2013, 08:19:30: Maltron does not seem to market their keyboards well, but they are based in the UK, so their products might be a little more visible over there. When I show people my keyboards, most have not even heard of the company.

Another thing about Maltron. Their boards are intended for people with special needs, like only have used of one arm or no arms, or have diagnosed RSI. They have the National Health Service over there that probably defrays the cost of these very expensive keyboards. I have a feeling that is why the company can keep their price so high and still stay in business.

Like Unicomp, some of their decisions really baffle me. They recently updated their website, I think to make it more mobile friendly, but it's harder to navigate than it was before the update. I guess when you have no competition, there is less incentive to make changes.
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: tufty on Sat, 21 December 2013, 11:02:21: Quote from: prdlm2009 on Sat, 21 December 2013, 08:19:30
They have the National Health Service over there that probably defrays the cost of these very expensive keyboards.
Does it ****.

"So, doc, about this RSI of mine. I think a more ergonomic keyboard would be a good move, don't you?"
"Yep"
"Can I get any sort of state help?"
"In your ****ing dreams, sonny-boy"

"So, boss, about this RSI of mine. I think a more ergonomic keyboard would be a good move, don't you?"
"Yep"
"Any chance the company might go some way to helping with the cost?"
"In your ****ing dreams, sonny-boy"

"So, mr bank manager, any chance of a loan?"
"In your ****ing dreams, sonny-boy"
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: spremino on Sat, 21 December 2013, 15:33:11: Quote from: Proword on Sat, 21 December 2013, 06:34:57
My understanding is that the majority of labour involved in building a Maltron is in soldering the copper wire matrix for the key switches.

This. AFAIK, they do it even on their flat keyboards. That's why I wrote that they don't seem interested in lowering their prices to cater to average users.
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: Proword on Sun, 22 December 2013, 17:39:38: But what percentage of their trade is in the flat keyboards? Are they going to outsource just the flat keyboards? And again, they are interested in quality control. Why gamble on losing their reputation just to save a few dollars on a minor portion of their portfolio.

Joe
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: vivalarevolución on Sun, 22 December 2013, 20:35:19: Quote from: tufty on Sat, 21 December 2013, 11:02:21
Quote from: prdlm2009 on Sat, 21 December 2013, 08:19:30
They have the National Health Service over there that probably defrays the cost of these very expensive keyboards.
Does it ****.

"So, doc, about this RSI of mine. I think a more ergonomic keyboard would be a good move, don't you?"
"Yep"
"Can I get any sort of state help?"
"In your ****ing dreams, sonny-boy"

"So, boss, about this RSI of mine. I think a more ergonomic keyboard would be a good move, don't you?"
"Yep"
"Any chance the company might go some way to helping with the cost?"
"In your ****ing dreams, sonny-boy"

"So, mr bank manager, any chance of a loan?"
"In your ****ing dreams, sonny-boy"

I could be wrong about that NHS bit.
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: ksm123 on Mon, 23 December 2013, 05:04:32: @Proword:

3D printer can make huge difference for hobbyists and niche users.
I can solder some wires to switches in my spare time, I can even modify firmware that goes into Teensy, but building my own injection molds for 3D keyboard chassis is way above my abilities.
3D printing may allow us to build customized 3D keyboards at home.
Title: Re: If ergonomic keyboards are such a niche market...
Post by: Tony on Tue, 24 December 2013, 01:14:55: I think the reason of poor market of ergonomic keyboards is that they take too much place on your desk.

Most people just don't care about ergonomics. They don't sit all day in one place enough to care.