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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: MC Qwerty on Sat, 07 April 2018, 08:49:59
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So I have question, what springs do you enjoy the most heavy or light?
I find that when I do moderate web browsing, gaming or anything that is light on the typing 60g springs work best. however when I write essays I find my hako clears nice to type on with 95g (I touch type so thats probably why I find heavy springs nice to type on).
So what springs do you use do you love or hate heavy springs?
Do you find a similiar sitaiton to mine when it comes to springs prefering heavyer springs when writing and lighter ones when doing other activities?
Also has anyone used devorack thinking of teaching it to myself learnt qwerty 3 years ago and can touch type relativly well?
Anyway thanks
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I'm a heavy spring fan, though not crazy heavy. I have cherry clears in a lot of my boards, and Box Navy in my main home board, which are even heavier. 78g Zeals feel really nice to me. So, for me, the 70-90g weighting is right in my wheelhouse. I can be OK with 65g or so, but much lower than that, and my fingers start to feel like they're just pushing through the keys, and I tend to make more typing errors.
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Sound pretty good planning on picking up a board with box navy
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I guess I like medium springs (65g or so), but large tactility.
If you're thinking of an alternate layout and already touch type QWERTY, give the Colemak layout a try. I loved it when I used it for a year or so. I had to go back to QWERTY because of the nature of my job, but I want to go back to Colemak one day. It's very, very comfortable for writing.
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Sound pretty good planning on picking up a board with box navy
Box Navies are incredible switches. Extremely tactile, with a very nice sounding click...far nicer sounding than cherry or outemo blues. I was never really a clicky switch guy until I tried navies, and I instantly knew I wanted to get them for use at home. Tactility is much closer to an Alps switch than any other MX style switch....sharp and clean and extremely satisfying. I'm probably going to try out the upcoming Box Royal tactiles as well, as they are said to be similar in tactility to box navy, which would be amazing for work.
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heavy enough to make quick returns,
Light enough not cause rapid fatigue..
40g-50g is the upper limit for fatigue..
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I guess I like medium springs (65g or so), but large tactility.
If you're thinking of an alternate layout and already touch type QWERTY, give the Colemak layout a try. I loved it when I used it for a year or so. I had to go back to QWERTY because of the nature of my job, but I want to go back to Colemak one day. It's very, very comfortable for writing.
Cool I will look into the laytout
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Sound pretty good planning on picking up a board with box navy
Box Navies are incredible switches. Extremely tactile, with a very nice sounding click...far nicer sounding than cherry or outemo blues. I was never really a clicky switch guy until I tried navies, and I instantly knew I wanted to get them for use at home. Tactility is much closer to an Alps switch than any other MX style switch....sharp and clean and extremely satisfying. I'm probably going to try out the upcoming Box Royal tactiles as well, as they are said to be similar in tactility to box navy, which would be amazing for work.
yeah the royals are looking pretty good, have you tried hako clears or true?
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I have not, I don' t think (I tried a lot of switches at the Columbus meetup). There may have been some there, but if so, they didn't stand out to me.
I walked away from that meetup with three impressions: Box Navy is awesome; Holy Pandas are awesome; SKCM Brown Alps are awesome.
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Don't forget the box jade. I like them better than the navies. Mike at Novelkeys is also working with spring vendors to come up with a medium spring that will fall right between jade and navy weights.
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Middle. 67g.
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So I have question, what springs do you enjoy the most heavy or light?
I find that when I do moderate web browsing, gaming or anything that is light on the typing 60g springs work best. however when I write essays I find my hako clears nice to type on with 95g (I touch type so thats probably why I find heavy springs nice to type on).
So what springs do you use do you love or hate heavy springs?
Do you find a similiar sitaiton to mine when it comes to springs prefering heavyer springs when writing and lighter ones when doing other activities?
Also has anyone used devorack thinking of teaching it to myself learnt qwerty 3 years ago and can touch type relativly well?
Anyway thanks
I’m in the process of building a 60% board. I’m going to use the Hako Clears. Did you swap out the springs that came with them?
I’m also a heavy typer, so I’m curious what you’ve done with them.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I guess I like medium springs (65g or so), but large tactility.
If you're thinking of an alternate layout and already touch type QWERTY, give the Colemak layout a try. I loved it when I used it for a year or so. I had to go back to QWERTY because of the nature of my job, but I want to go back to Colemak one day. It's very, very comfortable for writing.
Good to see some Colemak love. I also am in love with the layout. I've been with it for about a year and a half and never looked back. I'm at 70wpm now as well, which is about what I used to type with Qwerty but so much more fun to type with.
Anyways, I am also a heavy spring fan. I use MX Clears, Halo Clears, Box Pale Blues, and now Box Navy should be coming my way in May. I don't type more than a couple pages a day though so fatigue isn't a big concern. I just like to smash on it when I do type :) But even with the above-mentioned switches, I don't find them excessively stiffer than other switches. Perhaps I am just accustomed to it now.
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+1 for Colemak.
I'm still undecided on spring weight. Probably because I've been continually improving with Colemak since I've been into this hobby, so initially I thought I needed heavier springs because I kept making typos with very light touches on the keys. Now I'm leaning more towards somewhere around 65g-72g. Still experimenting.
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For clickies i like 45g, about the same for tactiles. Linears have to be heavy though. MX Clear spring minimum.
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not to light not to heavy 50 grams is the nice spot for me.
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I own keyboards across the spectrum. The lighest switches I have are Gateron Clears at 35g and the heaviest I guess would be my buckling springs at 70g.
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Cool I also have springs across the spectrum from 35g to 95g
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I find the variations of Red my sweet spot (my daily driver is Box Red). Gateron Yellows are too heavy, and Gateron Clears are ridiculously light. The heavier the spring, at least for linears, the mushier a keyboard feels. I like a little bit of light bottoming out.
+1 for Jades.
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Not as advanced as some of you guys.
I'm using Model M and variants right now, which are fairly heavy. But I just got moved to a close-quarters workspace, too close to too many coworkers for me to be using super loud buckling springs.
To make my coworkers less irritated I bought an MX blue board. We'll see if I can get away with that. But I'm worried it will feel too light after years of Unicomp and IBM Model M typing.
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Blue switches feel completely different than buckling springs, which may or may not be a good thing for you. I actually find them more annoying than buckling springs; IBM springs have a nice clack sound but the click jacket in blue switches makes a fingernails-down-chalkboard sound every time they actuate. I have used them in an office environment before, but it was a loud office anyways so no one noticed. I work in a relatively quiet office now so pretty much no clicky switches for me.
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At first I thought I was a heavy spring guy. I started off with Topre 45g, moved quickly through Outemu Blue and Brown just to get Pok3r with MX Clear. Been happy with it for couple of months while finger fatigue kicked in with my hands hurting a little bit, especially when gaming. I moved to Zealio 78g which helped a lot but now I'm thinking maybe I should've gone with 67g. I'm eyeing Kailh BOX Navy and Kailh BOX Royal but maybe I should wait a bit longer to get them with lighter springs with around 67g of force. In the end I think ~67g is where it's at for me, good all-round weight for both writing and gaming.
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I guess I like medium springs (65g or so), but large tactility.
I like light, but I found the tactility was better on 60 or so.
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67-70g is my sweet spot. The more switches I've tried the heavier I like them. Anything over 70g and I get finger burn.
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For typing - Clicky at around 70 grams.
Gaming - Linears at 60g (a.k.a. MX Blacks).
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It's not heavy versus light, or rather it doesn't say the whole story without knowing at which point (what travel distance) it is—or without knowing spring preload and spring rate to use the correct terms.
See Gateron Yellow versus Black: they both actuate at similar force (at the same distance), but one takes less force to bottom out and the other gets stiffer at the bottom, i.e., it has a steeper force curve. It varies, which people prefer.
I, for one, prefer switches with a steep force curve kind of like the clears mentioned in the OP.
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Not as advanced as some of you guys.
I'm using Model M and variants right now, which are fairly heavy. But I just got moved to a close-quarters workspace, too close to too many coworkers for me to be using super loud buckling springs.
To make my coworkers less irritated I bought an MX blue board. We'll see if I can get away with that. But I'm worried it will feel too light after years of Unicomp and IBM Model M typing.
Needless to say, I am still using my Model M at home. That's about it.
(https://i.imgur.com/SKBHOWQ.jpg)
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Those keycaps are interesting. Do you know what the board was originally for?
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Blue switches feel completely different than buckling springs, which may or may not be a good thing for you. I actually find them more annoying than buckling springs; IBM springs have a nice clack sound but the click jacket in blue switches makes a fingernails-down-chalkboard sound every time they actuate. I have used them in an office environment before, but it was a loud office anyways so no one noticed. I work in a relatively quiet office now so pretty much no clicky switches for me.
Yeah. The Blues board arrived the other day, and it's going to take some getting used to.
(https://xec.net/share/cherry.jpg)
It goes tickety-tick instead of clackity-clack, for one, and I'm bottoming the switches out sometimes because I'm used to the buckling spring force curve.
I'll try it out for a while and see how it goes. A lot depends on my coworkers' reactions.
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At first I thought I was a heavy spring guy. I started off with Topre 45g, moved quickly through Outemu Blue and Brown just to get Pok3r with MX Clear. Been happy with it for couple of months while finger fatigue kicked in with my hands hurting a little bit, especially when gaming. I moved to Zealio 78g which helped a lot but now I'm thinking maybe I should've gone with 67g. I'm eyeing Kailh BOX Navy and Kailh BOX Royal but maybe I should wait a bit longer to get them with lighter springs with around 67g of force. In the end I think ~67g is where it's at for me, good all-round weight for both writing and gaming.
If you thought clears were too heavy, then definitely don't go for Box Navy. they are notably heavier than clears. I use clears every day at work, and Navy is definitely notably heavier in use. I love them, but if I type on them for a long time, I do notice some fatigue. Clears bottom out heavier, but they activate at a much lower level. The tactile bump on clears is at 65g, compared to 77g for Navy. Clears bottom out near 90, but navies feel heavier when typing.
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If you thought clears were too heavy, then definitely don't go for Box Navy. they are notably heavier than clears. I use clears every day at work, and Navy is definitely notably heavier in use. I love them, but if I type on them for a long time, I do notice some fatigue. Clears bottom out heavier, but they activate at a much lower level. The tactile bump on clears is at 65g, compared to 77g for Navy. Clears bottom out near 90, but navies feel heavier when typing.
Thanks a ton, I'll definitely wait for the new springs for BOX switches as I heard they are trying to get something between Jade and Navy done.
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Those keycaps are interesting. Do you know what the board was originally for?
It is a 1392595 terminal keyboard. It was very common in its time. I just swapped the controller and added LED's to make it useful on a PC. More about it here:
https://imgur.com/a/O7ayY
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I prefer my springs on the heavier side, 67g to 90g seems to be my sweet spot. Although i won't hesitate to go even heavier, 150g seems to be my limit as far as actually typing comfortably on a MKB goes. Although I've learned to not bottom out & with my 150g Gat clear Pok3r so I don't get the full 150g when using it.
Right now the boards I've been using the most are my alum. Clueboard with 67g Cherry Zilents, my ACR60 with BOX Navys, my RS II+ ver.C with 78g Zilents, my 660C with BKE extreme domes, & my Let's Split with 80g Cherry clears. Check out my collection list at the bottom of my posts & you'll see just how much I love heavy switches, LOL! :cool:
Honestly though I know such heavy spring weights are not ideal for most people. I think I'm such an outlier with prefering extra heavy switches because I have played guitar for many many years & have made my living as a carpenter for many many years also. So between the two of those I kinda have the "HULK SMASH!!!" typing syndrome! :))
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I preferred heavy switches for quite some time when I first got into the hobby. I think it's because I spent the last two decades typing on rubber domes which require bottoming out and so I naturally had heavy fingers. I had Cherry MX Green and found that it geek too light after awhile, but now they feel way too heavy.
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I preferred heavy switches for quite some time when I first got into the hobby. I think it's because I spent the last two decades typing on rubber domes which require bottoming out and so I naturally had heavy fingers. I had Cherry MX Green and found that it geek too light after awhile, but now they feel way too heavy.
I can honestly echo this. For awhile I was all in with springs no lighter than 80g. Although after getting a decent switch collection, messing around with different spring/switch combos, & making some frankenswitches I find myself coming back down the weighting scale. I'm absolutely in love with the 67g Cherry Zilents I made for my alum Clueboard build, which is funny because before that I found 67g Zealios to light for my liking. :thumb:
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I think the force curve is more important than labeled spring weight. With that said I prefer lighter springs. I once bought a board with MX Clears and had it for less than an hour before I boxed it up and returned it. The force curve and weight of MX Browns are perfect to me.
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I think the force curve is more important than labeled spring weight. With that said I prefer lighter springs. I once bought a board with MX Clears and had it for less than an hour before I boxed it up and returned it. The force curve and weight of MX Browns are perfect to me.
The shape of the ramp also effects this.
Some of the Speed Switches feel like they fall off after actuation (they actually went flat), a sensation I really disliked.
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I guess I prefer medium weight springs,
I like Korean 65g springs, I'm gonna try them on Aliaz switches, soon :p
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I think the force curve is more important than labeled spring weight. With that said I prefer lighter springs. I once bought a board with MX Clears and had it for less than an hour before I boxed it up and returned it. The force curve and weight of MX Browns are perfect to me.
The shape of the ramp also effects this.
Some of the Speed Switches feel like they fall off after actuation (they actually went flat), a sensation I really disliked.
I feel like the HUMP has been math-ed out by Cherry, and that the stimulus should resemble what the Cherry MX BLUE delivers.
Not saying improvements can't be made, but this is about as far as it goes in practical terms.
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I think the force curve is more important than labeled spring weight. With that said I prefer lighter springs. I once bought a board with MX Clears and had it for less than an hour before I boxed it up and returned it. The force curve and weight of MX Browns are perfect to me.
The shape of the ramp also effects this.
Some of the Speed Switches feel like they fall off after actuation (they actually went flat), a sensation I really disliked.
I feel like the HUMP has been math-ed out by Cherry, and that the stimulus should resemble what the Cherry MX BLUE delivers.
Not saying improvements can't be made, but this is about as far as it goes in practical terms.
When you punch through the tactical bump on some switches it feels as though you expend energy to slow down the momentum to not mash the keystroke all the way down. This is probably what "falling off" refers to. For somebody who wants to bottom out this is smooth and pleasurable. MX Browns I can stop without having to think about my keystroke. Clears do a good job of this but are too heavy for any longer periods of use.
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This is exactly what the Box Jades do - the bump is so pronounced and the spring so light it feels like hitting a wall then punching through it into an even bigger immovable wall with almost zero cushioning before the even bigger immovable wall.
I like bottoming out though, I don't type hard enough to need deceleration or get impact fatigue from bottom outs, which is why I'm more than happy to rock reds as standard.
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I'm a weirdo. I like my linears either very light like MX Reds or sort of stiff like MX Blacks. "middle of the road" weighting on linears sort of feels like i'm typing on nothing.
The best linear I tried were SKCL Brown which are a medium-stiff weighting. They were smooth and felt perfect.
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I put together a board of Gateron Clear (super light linear) - they're terrible! Those feel like nothing, ridiculously light. Though I've not given that board much time in any real-use situation, I do not recommend lighter than reds.
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I think the force curve is more important than labeled spring weight. With that said I prefer lighter springs. I once bought a board with MX Clears and had it for less than an hour before I boxed it up and returned it. The force curve and weight of MX Browns are perfect to me.
The shape of the ramp also effects this.
Some of the Speed Switches feel like they fall off after actuation (they actually went flat), a sensation I really disliked.
I feel like the HUMP has been math-ed out by Cherry, and that the stimulus should resemble what the Cherry MX BLUE delivers.
Not saying improvements can't be made, but this is about as far as it goes in practical terms.
When you punch through the tactical bump on some switches it feels as though you expend energy to slow down the momentum to not mash the keystroke all the way down. This is probably what "falling off" refers to. For somebody who wants to bottom out this is smooth and pleasurable. MX Browns I can stop without having to think about my keystroke. Clears do a good job of this but are too heavy for any longer periods of use.
Here is a perfect example..
You have this good tactile bump, you know when you hit it, but there is almost no pressure afterwards. The pressure is actually LOWER than resting and then barely comes up to resting pressure before you hit the wall at the end. After so much pressure to trigger, this will give a feeling of freefall after you pass the tactile bump, the pressure at the end isn't even as high as at the base of the bump. This means there is pretty much zero chance of not bottoming out and when you do, it's going to bottom out hard because it's so light when you run up against it.
[attach=1]
Souce https://imgur.com/d99wb5o
Now look at this:
This has a decent tactile bump, but will not fall off a cliff leaving you to bottom out, and better still, it has a nice ramp at the end so if you do it's not like hitting a brick wall at 60mph. Unfortunately, the tactile bump is so rounded over it's not well defined, which is why clears lack the sharp, crisp feel blues/Jailhoues blues have. Believe it or not, browns have a better defined bump than clears because clears are so rounded off, it's not as large, but it is better defined. I knew clears were rounded but I had never looked at just how much, this explains why clears feel blah compared to browns in terms of crispness.
[attach=2]
Source: http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/mechanical-keyboard-guide
Now we are talking...
While I hate the stiffness, look at the force chart... Steep, sharp bump, a short fall off, and then a nice ramp up to the end. You can absolutely type on this without bottoming out, but when you do, it's much more gradual.
[attach=3]
Source: http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/mechanical-keyboard-guide
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One of the things I love about IBM switches (this is true of both buckling and beam springs) is that there really is no bump. They have incredibly sharp drop-offs when the spring buckles--the sharpest you will see on any switch type really--but up until that point they're just linear. The tactile event is impossible to miss because of that sharpness but there's nothing on top of the normal spring force that you have to overcome before that. I think that can also help prevent you from overshooting and bottoming out harshly.
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55g or death
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I go through stages. I always love to type on 55g topre. MX wise, I prefer linear. I was stuck on 62g lubed Vin Blacks for a long time. Switched over to lubed Tealios and it has become my favorite typing experience. My Vin Blacks had SS springs and the Tealios ("67g") have gold. I find that the Tealios feel a lot lighter than the 62g SS springs.
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I recently fell in love with Sprit 100g(140 bottom) springs in Kailh's Box Crystal Navy switches. Finally a switch I don't bottom out, accuracy has increased and (in a good way) they're a bit of a workout by the end of the day. The click sounds different as well, possibly deeper in tone with a slight decrease in SPL.
I also picked up Sprit's 90G B Special springs to experiment in Crystal Royals. They feel good on my test board, but I will make a better assessment once an entire board is populated. They have an increased resistance compared to stock, but it's not too firm of a spring that they no longer feel tactile. The 100g springs mentioned above make Royals feel like a linear switch.
Now I'm on the hunt for 125 or 150g springs as well as additional 90B Specials.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
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Super heavy switches (150g) are on my curiosity todo list, but my hypothesis is: meh.
I seem to type best with 45g to 35g. I can sustain with minimal errors with 67g--I think my Magicforce 68 has 67g Outemu (Gaote) Blues--but I feel like I don't type as fast as I type with 45g to 35g.
My average appears to be 50-65 wpm for work stuffs via a Kinesis Advantage Quiet LF with 45g Cherry MX Silent Reds (slower probably because of layout acclimation). And my 'sleeper' Cherry g80-11900 with lubed vintage Cherry MX Black switches (reduced by 0.4m) ATM: 67g mods, 80g spacebar, 35g alphanumeric, I max at 85 WPM (synthetic benchmarks like 10fastfingers). Nothing fancy just yet, but I'm sure I'll dabble with silent 'clones' eventually. I think I was typing at 50-65 WPM for work stuffs on it before I switched to something more 'ergonomic'. Lots of miss-presses via 35g but I enjoy the quiet return.
I think heavier springs bog my movement (67g+), but I have yet to test that on 100g+ sprigs. I've tried a few presses on a digital scale and 150g appears to be completely attainable for these working class type digits. I doubt I could maintain a decent speed with 150g--like 4+ hrs at 150g with minimal errors. I guess I'll eventually give 150g alphanumerics a try and post my findings.
I don't know if I'll use Spring springs though.
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My personal sweet spot is 62g-65g (bottom out). I found that the creams and ink blacks were a bit too heavy for me at 70g, spring swapped both with thick thocc 65g springs and they are magicfully amazing to type on. Alpacas were also nice and those are 62g bottom out
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anywhere between 62-67 is good for me