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Author Topic: IBM 3191 102-Key  (Read 8256 times)

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Offline nowsharing

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IBM 3191 102-Key
« on: Fri, 03 April 2009, 10:52:15 »
I don't know exactly what this is yet, but I snagged it for $15 shipped (the seller made me a deal). I'm pretty sure it's an early model m that was sold bundled with a 3191.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170302540446

Any ideas? It has the early square logo, and what looks like an AT connector.
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Offline ozar

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IBM 3191 102-Key
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 03 April 2009, 12:49:12 »
I'm not sure if it will work with a PC or not, but I'd think it's well worth what you gave for it for the parts alone.  It looks very clean as well, at least in the photos.
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Offline nowsharing

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IBM 3191 102-Key
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 03 April 2009, 16:29:41 »
Yeah, It's probably XT, but maybe I'll luck out. It sure looks good though.
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Offline nowsharing

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IBM 3191 102-Key
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 03 April 2009, 17:24:55 »
It seems that the 3191 shipped with keyboard part no. 1390123 (102 key) and 1390128 (108 key). I wonder how similar the 1390123 is to the 1390120...
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Offline ch_123

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IBM 3191 102-Key
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 03 April 2009, 18:42:07 »
Judging by the markings on the keys, it looks like a Terminal keyboard.
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Offline bhtooefr

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IBM 3191 102-Key
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 03 April 2009, 18:54:39 »
You could probably get a 3191 interfaced to a Linux box by telling it you've got a 3270 connected... but you'll need the terminal and monitor, too.
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Offline dw_junon

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IBM 3191 102-Key
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 05 April 2009, 10:36:30 »
The 108 key 'board sounds very interesting, where did you find that info?

The plug is most likely a 5 pin DIN with the pins spread around a 240 degree arc, unlike XT/AT/MIDI plugs with the pins in a 180 arc, so it's physically different and won't fit.

There is a kbdbabel adapter for this.
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ARC/Chicony KB-5181 XT/AT blue ALPS? 101 US FCC ID E8H51KKB-5181 • AST ASTKB102 AT capacitive rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Cherry G80-2100 AT black Cherry 126 key German ISO unique • Compaq Enhanced III PS/2 unknown rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Datacomp DFK102ARA03 AT 102 blue ALPS? US/Arabic FCC ID blank, S/N 37880001 • Dell AT102W PS/2 Black ALPS 105 UK ISO x2
Fujitsu KFB4725-102 AT membrane rubber dome with spring 105 UK ISO • Hewlett Packard C1405A AT rubber dome 102 UK ISO
IBM 0989705 XT/AT no LEDs Model M 102 US/Arabic  • IBM 1388076 Industrial AT Model M 102 UK ISO
IBM 1389260 3179/3180 Display Station Model M 122 US 3270 x2 • IBM 1391406 PS/2 Model M 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 1397003 PS/2 Model M "Host Connect" emulator 122 German ISO • IBM 71G4643 PS/2 Model M Quiet Touch "Ouch!    Rubber spring" 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 5640987 3178 Display Station Model C2 capacitive buckling spring 87 key US 3270 • IBM 556-712-01 RT PC rubber dome [same as 2nd PCjr kbd?] 101 US
IBM 6450225 PC/AT capacitive buckling spring 84 key UK PC/AT • Lexmark 8125460 Model M2 102 UK ISO
NMB RT-102 117456-002 AT Hi-Tek black, clicky 102 UK ISO • Olivetti ANK 2462 M24 Personal Computer keyboard 2 clicky Olivetti spring module 102 UK unique
Ortek MCK-142Pro AT white ALPS 142 key UK • Sun 540-1006-03 Type unknown linear(?) keyswitch 2 87 key SunType2
Wang 724 725-3771-UK salmon ALPS 110 key UK Wang724 • Making this list hasn\'t half scared me...
[/I]

Offline nowsharing

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IBM 3191 102-Key
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 05 April 2009, 10:50:48 »
Here are some links to what I discovered in an investigation the other day:

This is the site where I saw the 1390123 & 1390128 listed as being parts of the IBM 3191 Terminal: 3, and 8.

1390123 is listed as an AT Terminal Keyboard here, interestingly - http://www.etiexpress.com/i/IBM/1390123.html Again that's probably nothing to get excited over, as I don't have the monitor and whatnots.
edit: Ahh, they probably don't mean an AT Keyboard, I think they are referring to the IBM AT Computer.

Thanks for the info DW. I looked around that site and can't find an ordering area. Is it possible to order their parts, or are they all for homebrewers? I run Linux Mint alongside windows, and even if I could just use this for linux it woudl be worth it. Otherwise the keyboard will be resigned to a parts stock for my ps2 model m.
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Offline dw_junon

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IBM 3191 102-Key
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 05 April 2009, 12:00:30 »
Your links point to part numbers 1390123 and 1390238.

Looking up the earliest announcement letter for the 3191 at http://www.ibm.com/news/usalet , it shows that part number 1390123 is the Enhanced option, and P/N 1390238 is the 122 Typewriter option, which probably looks like this (that's for the 3180, but same design).  Was 108 a typo, or perhaps a reseller that can't count?

AT here probably just refers to the fact that the keyboard plug is a 5 pin DIN (from the vendor's perspective, never mind that the pins are different...), from years later when AT and PS/2 just came to mean the plug on the end of the cable, the keyboard itself assumed to be PC compatible.  Calling the type 5170 PC/AT a terminal doesn't really make any sense.

I don't know what the plans are for kbdbabel, but as it stands, yeah, all that's there is - the invaluable information, but no shop (maybe that's not the point of the site?...).  I'm not sure what to suggest, but it is perfectly possible to get PCBs fabricated and populated even in one-off quantities.

Dare I mention the thought of some group effort in the future?...
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ARC/Chicony KB-5181 XT/AT blue ALPS? 101 US FCC ID E8H51KKB-5181 • AST ASTKB102 AT capacitive rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Cherry G80-2100 AT black Cherry 126 key German ISO unique • Compaq Enhanced III PS/2 unknown rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Datacomp DFK102ARA03 AT 102 blue ALPS? US/Arabic FCC ID blank, S/N 37880001 • Dell AT102W PS/2 Black ALPS 105 UK ISO x2
Fujitsu KFB4725-102 AT membrane rubber dome with spring 105 UK ISO • Hewlett Packard C1405A AT rubber dome 102 UK ISO
IBM 0989705 XT/AT no LEDs Model M 102 US/Arabic  • IBM 1388076 Industrial AT Model M 102 UK ISO
IBM 1389260 3179/3180 Display Station Model M 122 US 3270 x2 • IBM 1391406 PS/2 Model M 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 1397003 PS/2 Model M "Host Connect" emulator 122 German ISO • IBM 71G4643 PS/2 Model M Quiet Touch "Ouch!    Rubber spring" 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 5640987 3178 Display Station Model C2 capacitive buckling spring 87 key US 3270 • IBM 556-712-01 RT PC rubber dome [same as 2nd PCjr kbd?] 101 US
IBM 6450225 PC/AT capacitive buckling spring 84 key UK PC/AT • Lexmark 8125460 Model M2 102 UK ISO
NMB RT-102 117456-002 AT Hi-Tek black, clicky 102 UK ISO • Olivetti ANK 2462 M24 Personal Computer keyboard 2 clicky Olivetti spring module 102 UK unique
Ortek MCK-142Pro AT white ALPS 142 key UK • Sun 540-1006-03 Type unknown linear(?) keyswitch 2 87 key SunType2
Wang 724 725-3771-UK salmon ALPS 110 key UK Wang724 • Making this list hasn\'t half scared me...
[/I]

Offline nowsharing

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IBM 3191 102-Key
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 05 April 2009, 12:19:41 »
I must be crazy because I just went through my entire history from yesterday trying to find a page mentioning a 108-key, and found nothing. You're right that the 122-key was the only other option, maybe I wrote 8 because of the last digit of the part no... Too much investigating I guess :)

So the connection is neither XT nor AT, and neither is the signal? I understand that the reason a simple adapter doesn't work with XT is because of the different signal, thus requiring a converter, is that the same case with this keyboard? I don't have enough experience with electronics to make any kind of converter or board, but I could change out the connector for another if that would work (AT or PS2)...but I don't expect that it would.
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Offline dw_junon

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IBM 3191 102-Key
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 05 April 2009, 15:19:29 »
I have a feeling that the later DEC terminal keyboards had 108 keys, if that has anything to do with it.  Particularly with IBM, the sheer volume of numbers involved when investigating can get pretty confusing...

I've been trying to think how to easily summarise exactly what the differences are...  If you like, check out the history lesson section at http://www.computer-engineering.org/index.php?title=PS/2_Keyboard_Interface ; as I understand, these terminal keyboards use the bi-directional interface [way it talks/listens] and scan code set 3 [the data it sends], but report different keyboard IDs during initialisation to PS/2 'boards, and so wouldn't be identified by most PC BIOSs and would cause an error.  Also, scan code set 3 never caught on due to being optional and so support is limited (see the heading "Use" here, points vi, viii and ix especially).

So, it's not really that far from "just working", but alas far enough away that a connector change probably won't make it work.
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ARC/Chicony KB-5181 XT/AT blue ALPS? 101 US FCC ID E8H51KKB-5181 • AST ASTKB102 AT capacitive rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Cherry G80-2100 AT black Cherry 126 key German ISO unique • Compaq Enhanced III PS/2 unknown rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Datacomp DFK102ARA03 AT 102 blue ALPS? US/Arabic FCC ID blank, S/N 37880001 • Dell AT102W PS/2 Black ALPS 105 UK ISO x2
Fujitsu KFB4725-102 AT membrane rubber dome with spring 105 UK ISO • Hewlett Packard C1405A AT rubber dome 102 UK ISO
IBM 0989705 XT/AT no LEDs Model M 102 US/Arabic  • IBM 1388076 Industrial AT Model M 102 UK ISO
IBM 1389260 3179/3180 Display Station Model M 122 US 3270 x2 • IBM 1391406 PS/2 Model M 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 1397003 PS/2 Model M "Host Connect" emulator 122 German ISO • IBM 71G4643 PS/2 Model M Quiet Touch "Ouch!    Rubber spring" 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 5640987 3178 Display Station Model C2 capacitive buckling spring 87 key US 3270 • IBM 556-712-01 RT PC rubber dome [same as 2nd PCjr kbd?] 101 US
IBM 6450225 PC/AT capacitive buckling spring 84 key UK PC/AT • Lexmark 8125460 Model M2 102 UK ISO
NMB RT-102 117456-002 AT Hi-Tek black, clicky 102 UK ISO • Olivetti ANK 2462 M24 Personal Computer keyboard 2 clicky Olivetti spring module 102 UK unique
Ortek MCK-142Pro AT white ALPS 142 key UK • Sun 540-1006-03 Type unknown linear(?) keyswitch 2 87 key SunType2
Wang 724 725-3771-UK salmon ALPS 110 key UK Wang724 • Making this list hasn\'t half scared me...
[/I]

Offline nowsharing

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IBM 3191 102-Key
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 05 April 2009, 17:15:03 »
Well translated, thanks! Now I basically understand what the differences are.
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Offline Idiot_Hacker

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IBM 3191 102-Key
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 01 June 2009, 14:45:29 »
What is the verdict?  Does the 1390123 work on a pc?

thanks......
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Offline wellington1869

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IBM 3191 102-Key
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 01 June 2009, 16:49:03 »
anything with the early square logo cant be all bad ;)
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Offline nowsharing

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IBM 3191 102-Key
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 01 June 2009, 23:33:17 »
Quote
What is the verdict? Does the 1390123 work on a pc?
I'm afraid that I won't have the definitive answer until Dec when I return home, however I'm fairly sure that it won't work with modern pcs.
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Offline Idiot_Hacker

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IBM 3191 102-Key
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 02 June 2009, 00:40:02 »
Here's an idea...... if someone has a model m that works with a pc but has missing keys, non functioning keys, etc.   What I would do is just take the circuit board and put it into these 101/102 keyboards
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Too many Model Ms to count
Cherry G80-3000LSCRC-2
Compaq MX11800
Dell AT101W
IBM Ultranav
Logitech G15 Version 1
Logitech DiNovo Edge

Offline itlnstln

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IBM 3191 102-Key
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 02 June 2009, 06:40:26 »
Quote from: wellington1869;93778
anything with the early square logo cant be all bad ;)

I disagree: http://lawyersusadcdicta.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/enron.jpg
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Offline nowsharing

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IBM 3191 102-Key
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 15 July 2009, 18:14:43 »
In one of Brian Oneil's latest auctions, he verifies that the 1390123 is for point-of-sale equipment. It is therefore not compatible with modern pcs.

Quote
Here's an idea...... if someone has a model m that works with a pc but has missing keys, non functioning keys, etc. What I would do is just take the circuit board and put it into these 101/102 keyboards
I'm going to do this eventually. I'll start a thread when I try it out.
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Offline ch_123

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IBM 3191 102-Key
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 31 July 2009, 05:28:05 »
Ignore, already  posted.
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