Author Topic: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F  (Read 2354711 times)

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Offline Photoelectric

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1650 on: Thu, 03 May 2018, 16:28:12 »
I once commented that the shipping process would take a long time with all of these orders, probably adding at least a few months even after production is complete. Ellipse's response seemed to imply he would be handling it alone. Someone once asked if he had a backup plan in case he died, and he said he didn't (Odd question, I know).

In this case I highly recommend to Ellipse that he should seek to arrange help in advance, because he's going to be overwhelmed with fulfillment, causing further delays and possibly (probably) a severe burnout.  I'm basing this opinion on having observed lots and lots of group buys on geekhack since I joined the site.
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Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1651 on: Thu, 03 May 2018, 17:17:45 »
Kavik, I ended up hiring the factory to take care of almost all of the configuration, assembly, testing, and QC so that it won't take me as long to send these out.  They are building a pneumatic spring-flipper attachment tool for mass production assembly (photos on the web site blog).

Offline Acereconkeys

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1652 on: Thu, 03 May 2018, 18:59:57 »
Kavik, I ended up hiring the factory to take care of almost all of the configuration, assembly, testing, and QC so that it won't take me as long to send these out.  They are building a pneumatic spring-flipper attachment tool for mass production assembly (photos on the web site blog).

Sorry if this has been answered i'm new to the project what's the plan for sale after the GB is over. Will these be commercially available?
TMO50 | Jane V2 CE Incoming | Realforce 87u 55g | Aergo

Aergo design and build log: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=103681.msg2840918#msg2840918

Offline Kavik

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1653 on: Thu, 03 May 2018, 21:42:31 »
Kavik, I ended up hiring the factory to take care of almost all of the configuration, assembly, testing, and QC so that it won't take me as long to send these out.  They are building a pneumatic spring-flipper attachment tool for mass production assembly (photos on the web site blog).

That's good to hear. Sorry if I spread any misinformation; I tried to report only what I'd read, but I may have missed some details.

Thank you for the recent updates btw.
Maybe they're waiting for gasmasks and latex to get sexy again.

The world has become a weird place.

Offline InvidiousIgnoramus

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1654 on: Thu, 03 May 2018, 22:30:59 »
Nope.
Kavik, I ended up hiring the factory to take care of almost all of the configuration, assembly, testing, and QC so that it won't take me as long to send these out.  They are building a pneumatic spring-flipper attachment tool for mass production assembly (photos on the web site blog).

Sorry if this has been answered i'm new to the project what's the plan for sale after the GB is over. Will these be commercially available?
I long for the day when I find a beamspring. (At a not insane price)

Offline Acereconkeys

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1655 on: Thu, 03 May 2018, 23:01:05 »
Nope.
Kavik, I ended up hiring the factory to take care of almost all of the configuration, assembly, testing, and QC so that it won't take me as long to send these out.  They are building a pneumatic spring-flipper attachment tool for mass production assembly (photos on the web site blog).

Sorry if this has been answered i'm new to the project what's the plan for sale after the GB is over. Will these be commercially available?

any idea how long I have to order?
TMO50 | Jane V2 CE Incoming | Realforce 87u 55g | Aergo

Aergo design and build log: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=103681.msg2840918#msg2840918

Offline Atredl

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1656 on: Fri, 04 May 2018, 06:05:13 »
Nope.
Kavik, I ended up hiring the factory to take care of almost all of the configuration, assembly, testing, and QC so that it won't take me as long to send these out.  They are building a pneumatic spring-flipper attachment tool for mass production assembly (photos on the web site blog).

Sorry if this has been answered i'm new to the project what's the plan for sale after the GB is over. Will these be commercially available?

any idea how long I have to order?
We don’t know when early bird will end but after it does there will be a 1-2 month regular buying period. No need to rush the order since there will be plenty of heads up before this ends.

Offline Acereconkeys

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1657 on: Fri, 04 May 2018, 14:22:03 »
...

any idea how long I have to order?
We don’t know when early bird will end but after it does there will be a 1-2 month regular buying period. No need to rush the order since there will be plenty of heads up before this ends.

That's all the information I was looking for thank you. The way he's been continuing pushing the "deadline" for "early bird" is quite confusing.
TMO50 | Jane V2 CE Incoming | Realforce 87u 55g | Aergo

Aergo design and build log: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=103681.msg2840918#msg2840918

Offline Pete

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1658 on: Sun, 06 May 2018, 04:45:06 »
A major YouTube reviewer was asking about getting a loaner in that case color.
Please tell me that it is chyros.

-- Nathan

The project was briefly mentioned at the end of one of his videos recently.

195132-0

Offline Meowsaur

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1659 on: Sun, 06 May 2018, 19:36:23 »
Yet it does not make sense to close this project's first round arbitrarily to stay true to a deadline if the factory is delayed in its goal to complete production and assembly (with all QC and other production issues worked out), nor does it make sense to eliminate dates and close the round when the factory is ready to ship, with little to no warning. 

Nobody has suggested that the first round be closed immediately, or that the round be closed without warning.

The suggestion was that either;
   a) Once everything is up to specification and the factories are ready to ship, put on the one-month deadline.
   b) Put on a realistic deadline (ie. 2-3 months instead of every month).

The problem with the monthly-moving-deadlines, at this stage, is two fold:
   - New buyers will rush to get in on the project*
   - New buyers will delay their purchase, on the assumption that the monthly deadline will continue to be pushed forward.

* .. as unless you've been following the project, or thoroughly read through the website, it's not immediately obvious that it's the early-bird round.
This opens up a third (and probably the simplest) option for my intial point:

   c) Make it clear, at a glance, that this is only the early-bird round.
   For example, something like this:

   

This avoids the concern that some have pointed out, that this is only made clear "in the small print".

I will not remove deadlines or other timelines or imply there is no deadline, even though they have proven sooner than the factories' actual results and have been pushed forward.  Allowing extra orders does not impact the timeline for existing orders.   The project window could be moved again if the springs or spring assembly require more time.

Production delays are not an issue.
Speaking mainly for myself here, but I'm sure the vast majority of individuals who have invested in the GB understand why the delays have happened.
The comments made regarding the moving deadlines are unrelated to this point.

We are getting there and I thank everyone for their support and patience as we move towards the final stage.

We really do appreciate all your hard work on this; no disrespect intended with the concerns above.

Offline ag36

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1660 on: Fri, 11 May 2018, 15:49:10 »
Quote
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/
Know Any Marketing/Kickstarter Experts? Planned Model F Kickstarter/Indiegogo Campaign!
May 10, 2018
In the final round’s month or two of accepting orders for the Brand New Model F Keyboards project (after early bird keyboards are shipped of course), I am still planning on a Kickstarter or Indiegogo campaign and could use any advice from those involved with major tech hardware campaigns in the past.  I have been reading up on this, and thankfully a couple experts have already reached out and have been a great help.

I think the additional venue will help the factory to make as many new Model F keyboards as possible and open the project up to those more comfortable working through the Kickstarter/Indiegogo sites.

I personally think Indiegogo might has sort negative image to some people including me(well, kickstarter is also only as legitimate as the vendor is), maybe you should make a poll to check people's interest?
« Last Edit: Fri, 11 May 2018, 15:55:00 by ag36 »
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Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1661 on: Fri, 11 May 2018, 20:07:18 »
Another mini update:

Keys - new samples arrived, and the factory has succeeded in fixing almost all of the out of tolerance keys!  They just need to finish working on the 2U and wider keys which are not yet within tolerance.

The 80% black keys look right to me, though they are difficult to photograph correctly (the black keys look more noticeably darker than the grey keys in person).  Is this the right color people are looking for?  Below are photos of the dark grey keys on the left and some black keys on the right for comparison.

The factory sent the first Industrial SSK blue color sample.  They are close but not yet a match.

Springs-the factory rejected the second group of samples they were working on due to poor quality material.  They will source the spring material from another supplier and remake the remaining springs this month.

195545-0
195547-1
195549-2

« Last Edit: Fri, 11 May 2018, 20:08:51 by Ellipse »

Offline xondat

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1662 on: Fri, 11 May 2018, 20:11:29 »
IBM noob here, which is the blue sample?

Offline fanpeople

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1663 on: Fri, 11 May 2018, 20:30:23 »
IBM noob here, which is the blue sample?

The blue one.

Offline romevi

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Offline ag36

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1666 on: Sat, 12 May 2018, 03:38:27 »
Wow, beautiful. The one withe F1 print is original right?
Model M*5, SSK*4, M13 black*1, Model F XT*1, AT*1 F107*1, Unicomp*1, 3278 *1, Leopold FC750R*2, 980M*2 FC980C*1 Filco majestouch 2 TKL*1, Cooler Master MasterKeys S PBT*1, Uniqey Q100*2, Ducky pocket*1, KBD75*2, KBD19X*2, HHKB pro 2*1, Type-S*1 Topre Realforce RGB*1, 108 all 30g*1, numpad*1, 87U*1 Dell AT101W*2, Alps64*2, V80 matias quiet click*2, Quiet liner *1, WYSE ASCII *1

Offline romevi

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1667 on: Sat, 12 May 2018, 08:55:11 »
Wow, beautiful. The one withe F1 print is original right?

More than likely since the Industrial SSK's F1 key has it on the side.


Offline Ramiel

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1668 on: Sat, 12 May 2018, 16:43:19 »

Springs-the factory rejected the second group of samples they were working on due to poor quality material.  They will source the spring material from another supplier and remake the remaining springs this month.


So they have made 4 variants of springs and didn't make the remaining 4 variants. Is that correct?

Maybe they should send you whatever have been done for evaluation first to speed up the whole process.

Offline Lagomorph

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1669 on: Tue, 15 May 2018, 05:41:33 »
The 80% black keys look right to me, though they are difficult to photograph correctly (the black keys look more noticeably darker than the grey keys in person).  Is this the right color people are looking for?

Thanks for the update. As you've said, it's tough from the photo to notice a difference between the two (at least for my aging, computer-strained eyes). Even if it's more noticeable in person, I think maybe the grays could be slightly lighter.

What does everyone else think?




Offline PancakeMSTR

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1670 on: Tue, 15 May 2018, 11:08:01 »
The 80% black keys look right to me, though they are difficult to photograph correctly (the black keys look more noticeably darker than the grey keys in person).  Is this the right color people are looking for?

Thanks for the update. As you've said, it's tough from the photo to notice a difference between the two (at least for my aging, computer-strained eyes). Even if it's more noticeable in person, I think maybe the grays could be slightly lighter.

What does everyone else think?

I think it's fine and he should get the things made already and get this keyboard shipped absolutely ASAP.
   

Offline xondat

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1671 on: Tue, 15 May 2018, 11:10:21 »
The 80% black keys look right to me, though they are difficult to photograph correctly (the black keys look more noticeably darker than the grey keys in person).  Is this the right color people are looking for?

Thanks for the update. As you've said, it's tough from the photo to notice a difference between the two (at least for my aging, computer-strained eyes). Even if it's more noticeable in person, I think maybe the grays could be slightly lighter.

What does everyone else think?

I think it's fine and he should get the things made already and get this keyboard shipped absolutely ASAP.

Isn't that not the point though? Probably the wrong buy to be in if you want it ASAP

Offline PancakeMSTR

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1672 on: Tue, 15 May 2018, 11:16:24 »
The 80% black keys look right to me, though they are difficult to photograph correctly (the black keys look more noticeably darker than the grey keys in person).  Is this the right color people are looking for?

Thanks for the update. As you've said, it's tough from the photo to notice a difference between the two (at least for my aging, computer-strained eyes). Even if it's more noticeable in person, I think maybe the grays could be slightly lighter.

What does everyone else think?

I think it's fine and he should get the things made already and get this keyboard shipped absolutely ASAP.

Isn't that not the point though? Probably the wrong buy to be in if you want it ASAP

Dude don't give me that "you're in the wrong buy" ****. I know what's going on, I know what the point of this is, but I still have issues with how it's being managed.

Not to mention I've already been in it for almost two goddamned years now. There is a distinction between impatience and "wtf is going on here already?"
   

Offline xondat

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1673 on: Tue, 15 May 2018, 11:20:41 »
Dude don't give me that "you're in the wrong buy" ****. I know what's going on, I know what the point of this is, but I still have issues with how it's being managed.

Not to mention I've already been in it for almost two goddamned years now. There is a distinction between impatience and "wtf is going on here already?"

Sorry, didn't see your username. :-X I guess some are more impatient than others, but it's clear what the **** is going on here.

Offline darkcruix

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1674 on: Tue, 15 May 2018, 12:40:13 »
Thanks for the update. As you've said, it's tough from the photo to notice a difference between the two (at least for my aging, computer-strained eyes). Even if it's more noticeable in person, I think maybe the grays could be slightly lighter.

What does everyone else think?

I also believe the dark grey needs to be lighter. I have attached how a legend would look with 80% grey and I'd rather have it 65%.
195685-0

Offline a_ak57

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1675 on: Wed, 16 May 2018, 10:06:51 »
I feel like if you haven't had an aneurysm after stressing out so much over the course of two years, you'll probably be fine waiting longer for something that is actually right.

Offline PancakeMSTR

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1676 on: Wed, 16 May 2018, 10:44:16 »
I feel like if you haven't had an aneurysm after stressing out so much over the course of two years, you'll probably be fine waiting longer for something that is actually right.

Ya'll need to condescend more. Your high-horses are only reaching the stratosphere. Moon's the limit, boys.
   

Offline sixdeuces

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1677 on: Thu, 17 May 2018, 08:29:50 »
Dude don't give me that "you're in the wrong buy" ****. I know what's going on, I know what the point of this is, but I still have issues with how it's being managed.

Not to mention I've already been in it for almost two goddamned years now. There is a distinction between impatience and "wtf is going on here already?"

You're perfectly entitled to your opinion. It's on the record, loud and clear. Either it will be followed or ignored, but either way there's no need to keep reiterating.

For me—and, I think, a lot of others here—the whole point of the project is the perfection. I don't want something like a Model F. I want a new Model F.

Offline PancakeMSTR

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1678 on: Thu, 17 May 2018, 11:00:08 »
I don't want something like a Model F. I want a new Model F.

Which, as everyone knows, I think is both infeasible and dumb.

I'm like a million percent sure that, if Ellipse shipped to us exactly what he's got right now, we would all be beyond happy with what we received.

Anyway whatever.
   

Offline darkcruix

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1679 on: Thu, 17 May 2018, 11:01:41 »
Perfection is our goal, excellence can be tolerated ...

Offline InvidiousIgnoramus

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1680 on: Thu, 17 May 2018, 11:08:41 »
I don't want something like a Model F. I want a new Model F.

Which, as everyone knows, I think is both infeasible and dumb.

I'm like a million percent sure that, if Ellipse shipped to us exactly what he's got right now, we would all be beyond happy with what we received.

Anyway whatever.
And yet we can't forget that that was his stated goal from the beginning, yet you still joined and complained.
I long for the day when I find a beamspring. (At a not insane price)

Offline PancakeMSTR

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1681 on: Thu, 17 May 2018, 13:12:57 »
I don't want something like a Model F. I want a new Model F.

Which, as everyone knows, I think is both infeasible and dumb.

I'm like a million percent sure that, if Ellipse shipped to us exactly what he's got right now, we would all be beyond happy with what we received.

Anyway whatever.
And yet we can't forget that that was his stated goal from the beginning, yet you still joined and complained.

Somehow getting this across to you guys is, like, not possible. My complaint isn't with the stated goal, although having thought about it since I've joined I have concerns there too, but with management and other behaviors I've witnessed. Moreover, I know for a fact that the differences from some of the things that are causing months of delays over so-called "attention to detail" will end up being totally negligible and unnoticeable.

Like there is a level of insanity going on here that is ignored under the guise of attaining "perfection." It's unreasonable. One of my concerns is that, by striving for this unattainable goal, a worse  product will be made over a longer period of time than if some of these stringent constraints were relaxed.

This is like "I want to make a Model T. I want to perfectly replicate it and change nothing, even though I have a vast array of modern technology available to me. The only thing I want to change is adding a CD player. Everything else must be identical, for better or worse."

Also, for ****ing goddamns sake, stop with the "yet you still joined" bull****. It is SO ANNOYING. I joined this two years ago, just when I had gotten into mechanical keyboards, and at the time didn't fully understand how this community and the projects within it worked. When I joined, I was much more naïve and oblivious.
« Last Edit: Thu, 17 May 2018, 13:19:15 by PancakeMSTR »
   

Offline Mr_BeastQuake

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1682 on: Thu, 17 May 2018, 13:30:52 »
I don't want something like a Model F. I want a new Model F.

Which, as everyone knows, I think is both infeasible and dumb.

I'm like a million percent sure that, if Ellipse shipped to us exactly what he's got right now, we would all be beyond happy with what we received.

Anyway whatever.
And yet we can't forget that that was his stated goal from the beginning, yet you still joined and complained.

Somehow getting this across to you guys is, like, not possible. My complaint isn't with the stated goal, although having thought about it since I've joined I have concerns there too, but with management and other behaviors I've witnessed. Moreover, I know for a fact that the differences from some of the things that are causing months of delays over so-called "attention to detail" will end up being totally negligible and unnoticeable.

Like there is a level of insanity going on here that is ignored under the guise of attaining "perfection." It's unreasonable. One of my concerns is that, by striving for this unattainable goal, a worse  product will be made over a longer period of time than if some of these stringent constraints were relaxed.

This is like "I want to make a Model T. I want to perfectly replicate it and change nothing, even though I have a vast array of modern technology available to me. The only thing I want to change is adding a CD player. Everything else must be identical, for better or worse."

Also, for ****ing goddamns sake, stop with the "yet you still joined" bull****. It is SO ANNOYING. I joined this two years ago, just when I had gotten into mechanical keyboards, and at the time didn't fully understand how this community and the projects within it worked. When I joined, I was much more naïve and oblivious.

and yet here you are

Offline Atredl

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1683 on: Thu, 17 May 2018, 13:48:31 »
Somehow getting this across to you guys is, like, not possible. My complaint isn't with the stated goal, although having thought about it since I've joined I have concerns there too, but with management and other behaviors I've witnessed. Moreover, I know for a fact that the differences from some of the things that are causing months of delays over so-called "attention to detail" will end up being totally negligible and unnoticeable.

Like there is a level of insanity going on here that is ignored under the guise of attaining "perfection." It's unreasonable. One of my concerns is that, by striving for this unattainable goal, a worse  product will be made over a longer period of time than if some of these stringent constraints were relaxed.

This is like "I want to make a Model T. I want to perfectly replicate it and change nothing, even though I have a vast array of modern technology available to me. The only thing I want to change is adding a CD player. Everything else must be identical, for better or worse."

Also, for ****ing goddamns sake, stop with the "yet you still joined" bull****. It is SO ANNOYING. I joined this two years ago, just when I had gotten into mechanical keyboards, and at the time didn't fully understand how this community and the projects within it worked. When I joined, I was much more naïve and oblivious.
Condescension aside...

We get it, you have complaints. We’ve heard them as many times as you’ve cared to type them. Some of us just happen to disagree despite what you “know for a fact” and your “million percent certainty”. Though I don’t know where you’re basing that certainty since you’ve said you haven’t used a Model F, you haven’t used Ellipse’s new Model F, and you don’t know us.

Offline emenelopee

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1684 on: Thu, 17 May 2018, 13:49:46 »
I don't want something like a Model F. I want a new Model F.

Which, as everyone knows, I think is both infeasible and dumb.

I'm like a million percent sure that, if Ellipse shipped to us exactly what he's got right now, we would all be beyond happy with what we received.

Anyway whatever.
And yet we can't forget that that was his stated goal from the beginning, yet you still joined and complained.

Somehow getting this across to you guys is, like, not possible. My complaint isn't with the stated goal, although having thought about it since I've joined I have concerns there too, but with management and other behaviors I've witnessed. Moreover, I know for a fact that the differences from some of the things that are causing months of delays over so-called "attention to detail" will end up being totally negligible and unnoticeable.

Like there is a level of insanity going on here that is ignored under the guise of attaining "perfection." It's unreasonable. One of my concerns is that, by striving for this unattainable goal, a worse  product will be made over a longer period of time than if some of these stringent constraints were relaxed.

This is like "I want to make a Model T. I want to perfectly replicate it and change nothing, even though I have a vast array of modern technology available to me. The only thing I want to change is adding a CD player. Everything else must be identical, for better or worse."

Also, for ****ing goddamns sake, stop with the "yet you still joined" bull****. It is SO ANNOYING. I joined this two years ago, just when I had gotten into mechanical keyboards, and at the time didn't fully understand how this community and the projects within it worked. When I joined, I was much more naïve and oblivious.

To add, and this is by far my biggest gripe, the fake countdown right now, once again, makes it look like its done at the end of this month. We were all naïve, and new joiners are likely similarly naive thinking it's this close, based on misleading info. Unless anyone interested reads two years of history and each spinoff discussion, claiming "you knew what you were getting into" is spurious. It can be claimed all the information is there, somewhere, to make an informed decision, but I argue obfuscated and opaque info is as good as none, especially for the novice.

And as to "it'll take all the time it needs": What is your cut off point? Would you be OK with another year's wait? Two more? Three? How much time is Ok for the last 5% if we're at 95% after two years?

Offline PancakeMSTR

  • Posts: 491
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1685 on: Thu, 17 May 2018, 17:31:31 »
and yet here you are

Sunk cost fallacy, fear of missing out, Ellipse won't offer refunds...take your pick.

To add, and this is by far my biggest gripe, the fake countdown right now, once again, makes it look like its done at the end of this month. We were all naïve, and new joiners are likely similarly naive thinking it's this close, based on misleading info. Unless anyone interested reads two years of history and each spinoff discussion, claiming "you knew what you were getting into" is spurious. It can be claimed all the information is there, somewhere, to make an informed decision, but I argue obfuscated and opaque info is as good as none, especially for the novice.

And as to "it'll take all the time it needs": What is your cut off point? Would you be OK with another year's wait? Two more? Three? How much time is Ok for the last 5% if we're at 95% after two years?

The fake countdown is definitely what kicked off my paying closer attention to the management of this project, and since then I've noticed many more things I have problems with.

Another major issue I have is that there is significantly less community involvement in this project than I would like. Ellipse is forcing upon us his subjective interpretation and definition of perfection, rather than listening or even soliciting (there are exceptions to this) input from his investors.

Now I get that he is an authority on the Model F, but that only goes so far. For example, he got a material analysis done, a precision, replicable study, on spring materials based on as imprecise and inaccurate a measurement as his hearing? To go through that based on a fundamentally subjective measurement?

I mean if he had done an FFT on the audio, identified differences, and posted the results, then maybe I'd be more accepting of the pathway he took. But just him listening to it? Are you serious? And then not even posting the audio for us to listen to?

You know I'm accepting of delays, as long as there is a good argument for having them. Here, I'm just not getting that.

« Last Edit: Thu, 17 May 2018, 17:34:28 by PancakeMSTR »
   

Offline billm

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1686 on: Thu, 17 May 2018, 17:53:11 »
New to the buy as of last week. Having previously waited 2.5 years for Round 5 keycaps, I don't feel like the timeline here is that bad.
If it's not ALPS it's crap!

Offline sixdeuces

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1687 on: Fri, 18 May 2018, 16:54:57 »
The fake countdown is definitely what kicked off my paying closer attention to the management of this project...

I'll give you this one. I definitely did hop on because I thought the deadline was near, only to find out differently later.

Luckily, I've been down the GB road before and it's not that big a deal, but I can see how it would mislead a newcomer.

Offline gumeraser

  • Posts: 37
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1688 on: Tue, 22 May 2018, 21:39:57 »
I'm curious about what other people's guesses are for when these boards are going to ship so I'm posting a straw poll...

https://www.strawpoll.me/15751137/r

Offline gumeraser

  • Posts: 37
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1689 on: Thu, 24 May 2018, 20:15:00 »
I reallly hope the optimistic 57% who voted 2019 are right. :)

Offline Techno Trousers

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1690 on: Thu, 24 May 2018, 20:26:23 »
Ellipse has been pretty clear that the only remaining items to finalize are the springs and key caps. I actually wouldn't be surprised if boards start shipping before the end of 2018.

Offline sundin

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1691 on: Fri, 25 May 2018, 12:26:36 »
I'm curious about what other people's guesses are for when these boards are going to ship so I'm posting a straw poll...

https://www.strawpoll.me/15751137/r
We need an "after"

Offline henz

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1692 on: Fri, 25 May 2018, 16:14:03 »
I'm curious about what other people's guesses are for when these boards are going to ship so I'm posting a straw poll...

https://www.strawpoll.me/15751137/r
We need an "after"

2022, called it!

Offline Synjin

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1693 on: Fri, 25 May 2018, 17:00:06 »
I was originally joining for 2 or 3 of these boards but decided to cancel my order because I wanted to be on the safe side of things. During that time, these were supposedly shipping very soon (that was the first deadline for the initial GB before it was extended multiple times) I've been burned by multiple GB in the past so I recommend getting a refund and then requesting for a re-invoice to ensure that you stay within the protection period PayPal offers.

Offline LightningXI

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1694 on: Fri, 25 May 2018, 17:06:10 »
I was originally joining for 2 or 3 of these boards but decided to cancel my order because I wanted to be on the safe side of things. During that time, these were supposedly shipping very soon (that was the first deadline for the initial GB before it was extended multiple times) I've been burned by multiple GB in the past so I recommend getting a refund and then requesting for a re-invoice to ensure that you stay within the protection period PayPal offers.

Ellipse uses his storefront to take orders and not via PayPal, AFAIK. Protection here would come from the bank from which you issued your credit card.

Offline Synjin

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1695 on: Fri, 25 May 2018, 17:17:48 »
Gotcha. Maybe mine was a but different as I got mine via invoice through PayPal (perhaps I specifically requested for it) but at least the bank has similar protection in place so I think people will be ok if they do not receive the product purchased.


Seems like there's been salt on this thread recently. :(

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1696 on: Fri, 25 May 2018, 20:44:57 »
Any more thoughts on the 60% dark gray v. 80% dark gray keys?  So far I am leaning towards changing it to 60% unless people are fine with 80%.

Another mini update:
The key factory is fixing up the molds and expects to be finished by the end of next week.  They are also working on the color matching.  So we could have the final samples in hand in ~2 weeks and then start mass production of the keys in June.

The spring factory is still working on the final samples.  They had to put in a special order at the wire factory in Japan as the wire is no longer common enough to stock.

We are wrapping up here.  Again my apologies for the long factory production delays, and I thank those who are excited as I am about bringing the Model F back into production!

Speaking of wrapping, I have ordered a gummed paper tape dispenser and tape so the actual keyboard boxes will have a more professional IBM-like appearance, along with the dot matrix printer and green bar computer paper for everyone's packing slip.  IBM used paper tape on shipping boxes of many of their 1980s computers and Model F keyboards, and also on their 1390131 two-pack shipping boxes - see third photo here:  https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/brand-new-in-box-ibm-1390131-model-m-keyboard/

Catching everyone up on the project: 
After speaking with some very helpful advisers including engineers and someone who helped run a successful large Kickstarter campaign, I waited until the factories were able to produce fully functional prototypes and could produce the keyboards for $350 or less before accepting any orders.  That was probably the most important piece of advice I've received for this project.
I have studied the challenges of hardware projects, especially those requiring less conventional production processes.  One of the issues with some crowdfunded projects revolves around developing new technology and the project fails as they ran out of development resources - this issue is not the case here as the software and controller firmware were fully developed thanks to xwhatsit and the factory has completed the Model F molds and tooling for all the plastic and metal parts (save the keys) so the final round will be able to go much more smoothly.  The Model F parts went into production with no yield issues.  I read recently about e-ink phone cases and 3D VR headphones as examples of production and technology development problems resulting in them running out of money.

In summary - 100% functionality was achieved with the prototypes; the factory delays have enabled us to move towards meeting the original Model F aesthetics, sound, and experience:
We are not missing our goal here of a Brand New Model F because the factory have completed production of functional Model F parts.  All but the keys and springs passed my inspection, were produced, and are boxed up waiting to be assembled.  The factories have eventually succeeded in producing the several hundred thousand parts I've ordered so far - PCBs, die cast cases, flippers, barrels, ribbon cables, inner steel assemblies, etc.
In general the factory production delays have historically focused on whether to proceed with the original timeline with working but substandard parts or rejecting the prototypes to make the new Model F as close to the originals as possible - I have always chosen the latter option.  Few issues were with parts being non-functional.  The goal of this project from the beginning has been a reproduction of the Model F, not a Model F style keyboard.
The two "key" parts remaining are the key sets and springs.  The factory has proven they can make the springs within tolerance; just trying to get them to sound as close as possible to the original Model F.
If the keys become a bottleneck we will still be able to deliver the orders using Unicomp keys for those who would prefer not waiting any longer for the new keys (but again almost all of the keys are now approved and within spec, and the factory is just finishing up a few corrections and matching colors). 
« Last Edit: Fri, 25 May 2018, 21:09:42 by Ellipse »

Offline Kavik

  • Posts: 819
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1697 on: Fri, 25 May 2018, 20:56:55 »
Any more thoughts on the 60% dark gray v. 80% dark gray keys?  So far I am leaning towards changing it to 60% unless people are fine with 80%.

Another mini update:
The key factory is fixing up the molds and expects to be finished by the end of next week.  They are also working on the color matching.  So we could have the final samples in hand in ~2 weeks and then start mass production of the keys in June.

The spring factory is still working on the final samples.  They had to put in a special order at the wire factory in Japan as the wire is no longer common enough to stock.

We are wrapping up here.  Again my apologies for the long factory production delays, and I thank those who are excited as I am about bringing the Model F back into production!

Speaking of wrapping, I have ordered a gummed paper tape dispenser and tape so the actual keyboard boxes will have a more professional IBM-like appearance, along with the dot matrix printer and green bar computer paper for everyone's packing slip.  IBM used paper tape on shipping boxes of many of their 1980s computers and Model F keyboards, and also on their 1390131 two-pack shipping boxes - see third photo here:  https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/brand-new-in-box-ibm-1390131-model-m-keyboard/

Catching everyone up on the project: 
After speaking with some very helpful advisers including engineers and someone who helped run a successful large Kickstarter campaign, I waited until the factories were able to produce fully functional prototypes for $350 or less before accepting any orders.  That was probably the most important piece of advice I've received for this project.
I have studied the challenges of hardware projects, especially those requiring less conventional production processes.  One of the issues with some crowdfunded projects revolves around developing new technology and the project fails as they ran out of development resources - this issue is not the case here as the software and controller firmware were fully developed thanks to xwhatsit and the factory has completed the Model F molds and tooling for all the plastic and metal parts (save the keys) so the final round will be able to go much more smoothly.  The Model F parts went into production with no yield issues.  I read recently about e-ink phone cases and 3D VR headphones as examples of production and technology development problems resulting in them running out of money.

In summary - 100% functionality was achieved with the prototypes; the factory delays have enabled us to move towards meeting the original Model F aesthetics, sound, and experience:
We are not missing our goal here of a Brand New Model F because the factory have completed production of functional Model F parts.  All but the keys and springs passed my inspection, were produced, and are boxed up waiting to be assembled.  The factories have eventually succeeded in producing the several hundred thousand parts I've ordered so far - PCBs, die cast cases, flippers, barrels, ribbon cables, inner steel assemblies, etc.
In general the factory production delays have historically focused on whether to proceed with the original timeline with working but substandard parts or rejecting the prototypes to make the new Model F as close to the originals as possible - I have always chosen the latter option.  Few issues were with parts being non-functional.  The goal of this project from the beginning has been a reproduction of the Model F, not a Model F style keyboard.
The two "key" parts remaining are the key sets and springs.  The factory has proven they can make the springs within tolerance; just trying to get them to sound as close as possible to the original Model F.
If the keys become a bottleneck we will still be able to deliver the orders using Unicomp keys for those who would prefer not waiting any longer for the new keys (but again almost all of the keys are now approved and within spec, and the factory is just finishing up a few corrections and matching colors).

Thank you for the update!

I am also leaning towards the 60% dark gray. I have ordered the blank black keycaps also, so I'd prefer more legible legends on the dark gray ones.
Maybe they're waiting for gasmasks and latex to get sexy again.

The world has become a weird place.

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1618
  • Location: New York
    • Brand New Model F Keyboards
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1698 on: Thu, 31 May 2018, 22:07:48 »
No fewer than 12 new spring sample variations are on their way!  I'm hoping at least one will live up to what a New Model F should sound like!

ok Kavik I have requested 60% gray key samples from the factory.

196851-0

Offline SixtyLife

  • Posts: 474
  • Location: New Jersey
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1699 on: Fri, 01 June 2018, 00:08:21 »
No fewer than 12 new spring sample variations are on their way!  I'm hoping at least one will live up to what a New Model F should sound like!

ok Kavik I have requested 60% gray key samples from the factory.

(Attachment Link)
ellipse you madman
Kishsaver, JP SSK, Displaywriter SSK, 360C, HHKB Type S, X60, Jane v2, Jane v2 CE