Author Topic: Star Wars: The Last Jedi ***SPOILERS WELCOME***  (Read 3294 times)

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Online Mr_BeastQuake

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi ***SPOILERS WELCOME***
« Reply #50 on: Fri, 05 January 2018, 12:30:31 »
Syth have a pretty high turnover rate due to their Rule of Two, there can be only two masters/lords and each can only have one apprentice, the only way to move up is to kill your master. If that were not enough, Masters are always looking for a more capable apprentice. Your only hope is to get good enough to kill your master before he finds an apprentice with more potential and without tipping him off that you are a danger to him. If you do manage to kill him, you get to go through the same dance with your own apprentice.

Kind of puts Kylo Ren's frustration into a different perspective when you figure that had he had to bring Rey to his master to prove himself worthy, but that doing so also could mean his own death should Rey decide to switch sides.

Ya, is the Rule of Two still canon? I can never tell anymore. I definitely get why they killed Snoke, Ren is more interesting and it's kind of the way of Star Wars to have apprentices kill masters.

In one of the books, I think the Thrawn book, it hints that the Emperor fears something in the wild/unknown regions. Thus, he brings Thrawn on. I suppose I just missed what it was alluding to. Just curious if there is a Rule of Two, where Snoke was when the Emperor and Vader were pwning the galaxy. That is probably the extent of my interest in Snoke. Expect Disney to authorize a Snoke book.

Offline Findecanor

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi ***SPOILERS WELCOME***
« Reply #51 on: Fri, 05 January 2018, 12:45:57 »
In one of the books, I think the Thrawn book, it hints that the Emperor fears something in the wild/unknown regions. Thus, he brings Thrawn on. I suppose I just missed what it was alluding to.
I can't tell which book you are referring to... There was the "Thrawn trilogy", starting with "Heir to the Empire".

The book "Outbound Flight" is a prequel to that, set in the prequel-era... In that one, Jedi Master Sifa-Dyas senses the coming Jedi Purge, so he starts an expedition into the Unknown Regions under a false pretext - to explore - but what he actually wants is to send away a contingent of Jedi so that there will be Jedi that survive.
In that book, Palpatine makes contact with Thrawn for the first time and makes him attack the expedition in the Unknown Regions, but some get away, crash land on a planet and loses contact with civilisation.
« Last Edit: Fri, 05 January 2018, 12:47:42 by Findecanor »
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Online chuckdee

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi ***SPOILERS WELCOME***
« Reply #52 on: Fri, 05 January 2018, 13:19:53 »
I liked it well enough. The humor was pretty on point. Wasn't a huge fan of Snoke's uneventful death. What with some of the hints in the canon books, I thought he was a bigger deal. People have pointed out that the Emperor originally kind of came out of nowhere and died the next film, so I guess there's some precedence.
Syth have a pretty high turnover rate due to their Rule of Two, there can be only two masters/lords and each can only have one apprentice, the only way to move up is to kill your master. If that were not enough, Masters are always looking for a more capable apprentice. Your only hope is to get good enough to kill your master before he finds an apprentice with more potential and without tipping him off that you are a danger to him. If you do manage to kill him, you get to go through the same dance with your own apprentice.

Kind of puts Kylo Ren's frustration into a different perspective when you figure that had he had to bring Rey to his master to prove himself worthy, but that doing so also could mean his own death should Rey decide to switch sides.

Sith, first of all.  And you have the Rule of Two wrong.

Quote
This is the Rule of Two: One Sith must contain all the power of the dark side. One Master must decide how that power should be used.

From Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

Admittedly the source is from Legends.  But in Canon, there is reference also:

"Always two there are; no more, no less. A master and an apprentice." - Yoda

From Star Wars: Episode I The Phantom Menace

So not sure where "two masters/lords and each can only have one apprentice" comes from.

And the reasoning behind it is because of the Jedi–Sith Wars that were as much internecine as against the Jedi.  It's not attrition as much as it is a prevention of the inevitable conflict between the Sith that almost destroyed them.  The Code of the Sith is the antithesis of cooperation, and Darth Bane recognized this.

Quote
Peace is a lie. There is only Passion.
Through Passion I gain Strength.
Through Strength I gain Power.
Through Power I gain Victory.
Through Victory my chains are Broken.
The Force shall free me.
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Offline 0100010

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi ***SPOILERS WELCOME***
« Reply #53 on: Fri, 05 January 2018, 14:42:32 »
Hated it.  Crap writing.

Luke - Hey, that's my old / fathers lightsaber, let me just throw it over my shoulder.  // Lets see, I was the only person in the universe who saw good in my father before, but I get one inkling of my student / nephew leaning towards the dark side - yeah, I think I'll kill him.  // I failed at running my own training academy, so I came here to die and gave up on the rest of the universe.

Leia - space Mary Poppins.  Give me a break.  Why didn't they have her sacrifice herself in the hyperspace jump instead of admiral gender studies?  Or at least have Ackbar go out with some flair.  Or let her die after getting blasted in space?

Finn / Rose - useless subplot.  Lets release the horses, but leave the slave kids.

Del Toro - While Finn and Rose are looking for the 1 person in the universe who can help them, I randomly show up in the same cell and magically have the same ability to break through first order shields that only that one other guy had.

Poe - Thanks admiral gender studies for not telling me what the plan is, so I have to come up with a way to get most of us killed.

Admiral gender studies - I'm not going to tell my best pilot what the plan is, he is not important enough to know.  I'm also going to wait until most of the transports are destroyed before I take action to destroy the first order fleet.  No comment on the fact that hyperspace in Star Wars was always another dimension, that only gravity could interfere with.

Snoke - I know most of you guys had a lot of questions about who I was after The Force Awakens, like am I really Darth Plagueous, or am I so old that I predate the Jedi order and have just been waiting for the Jedi / Sith and the prophecy to wipe each other out before I return to power?  But - you're not going to find out, I was just killed.

Rey - I learned how to fight with lightsaber in about 5 seconds before, then I got a couple half assed lessons from Luke, but I am one of the most powerful force users in the universe now.  Oh and my parents, guess I was a force child like Anakin since I only saw myself in the mirror.  BTW, you can call me Mary Sue.  I did steal those Whill books though, perhaps I will read them.

Overall, I have no desire to watch the next movie.  Not because of the poor writing of this one, but mostly because I couldn't care less about any of the characters left.  Thanks Disney.  Every other Star Wars Movie, you wanted to see the next one, to see what happened to the people and with the story.  But not with this one.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi ***SPOILERS WELCOME***
« Reply #54 on: Fri, 05 January 2018, 14:58:44 »
Remember when Finn was going to kamikaze and you thought, "Thank ****," but then Rose crashes into him and after some atrocious nonsense dialogue they're inexplicably back inside the base despite being surrounded by AT-ATs in the middle of a flat wasteland with no where to hide?

Great movie.
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Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi ***SPOILERS WELCOME***
« Reply #55 on: Fri, 05 January 2018, 15:04:18 »
Hated it.  Crap writing.

Certainly don't disagree with your criticisms, however I feel that I may just be more willing to let most of them go.  I still do appreciate the film for what it is, and enjoyed watching it.  It could have been so much better though, for exactly the reasons you mention.

Luke - Hey, that's my old / fathers lightsaber, let me just throw it over my shoulder.  // Lets see, I was the only person in the universe who saw good in my father before, but I get one inkling of my student / nephew leaning towards the dark side - yeah, I think I'll kill him.  // I failed at running my own training academy, so I came here to die and gave up on the rest of the universe.

Saw a quote from Hamill where he said "I pretty much fundamentally disagree with every choice you’ve made for this character. Now, having said that, I have gotten it off my chest, and my job now is to take what you’ve created and do my best to realize your vision." and that's pretty much how I would respond too.  It's pretty lackluster writing, especially considering it comes from Rian Johnson, whom I adore.  :|

Online ygor

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi ***SPOILERS WELCOME***
« Reply #56 on: Fri, 05 January 2018, 15:08:55 »
Saw a quote from Hamill where he said "I pretty much fundamentally disagree with every choice you’ve made for this character. Now, having said that, I have gotten it off my chest, and my job now is to take what you’ve created and do my best to realize your vision."



Take that ****, Mark. And like it.
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Online ygor

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi ***SPOILERS WELCOME***
« Reply #57 on: Fri, 05 January 2018, 15:09:11 »
.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi ***SPOILERS WELCOME***
« Reply #58 on: Fri, 05 January 2018, 21:10:12 »

So not sure where "two masters/lords and each can only have one apprentice" comes from.
grr I always want to write Sith as Syth.

Wookiepedia has more on the Rule of Two.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rule_of_Two

What I missed was that the Rule of Two ended with the death of Darth Sidious, so yes, Snoke could have had Rey and Ren as apprentices.
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Online Mr_BeastQuake

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi ***SPOILERS WELCOME***
« Reply #59 on: Fri, 05 January 2018, 22:41:43 »
I can't tell which book you are referring to... There was the "Thrawn trilogy", starting with "Heir to the Empire".

I hesitate to use any of the older stuff when trying to see what Disney is trying to build, since they essentially banished it all to the mysterious Legends realm. Timothy Zahn wrote a new Thrawn novel that was released very recently:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Thrawn_(novel)

I listened to the Audible narration on a couple of long trips, highly recommend the Audible version. Anyways, this is what I was referencing since Disney canon.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi ***SPOILERS WELCOME***
« Reply #60 on: Fri, 05 January 2018, 23:31:10 »
I can't tell which book you are referring to... There was the "Thrawn trilogy", starting with "Heir to the Empire".

I hesitate to use any of the older stuff when trying to see what Disney is trying to build, since they essentially banished it all to the mysterious Legends realm. Timothy Zahn wrote a new Thrawn novel that was released very recently:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Thrawn_(novel)

I listened to the Audible narration on a couple of long trips, highly recommend the Audible version. Anyways, this is what I was referencing since Disney canon.

Adding it to my Audible Wish List. These days I don't have time to read as much but found that audiobooks are the next best thing while having one played in the background at work.

Offline Findecanor

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi ***SPOILERS WELCOME***
« Reply #61 on: Fri, 05 January 2018, 23:31:44 »
I hesitate to use any of the older stuff when trying to see what Disney is trying to build, since they essentially banished it all to the mysterious Legends realm. Timothy Zahn wrote a new Thrawn novel that was released very recently:
Ah, OK. That went under my radar because I don't care much about the new canon.
Anyway, Sifa-Dyas was mentioned in AOTC, so that character is still canon even if not all stories about it is.
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Online chuckdee

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi ***SPOILERS WELCOME***
« Reply #62 on: Sat, 06 January 2018, 08:21:10 »

So not sure where "two masters/lords and each can only have one apprentice" comes from.
grr I always want to write Sith as Syth.

Wookiepedia has more on the Rule of Two.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rule_of_Two

What I missed was that the Rule of Two ended with the death of Darth Sidious, so yes, Snoke could have had Rey and Ren as apprentices.

That seems a ... strange conclusion to draw from that.  What you missed was that there would be two masters and two apprentices.  One is the key.

As far as that last part, wookiepedia is edited by fans, so sometimes their conclusions are specious at best.  Snoke was not a Sith.

From JJ Abrams:
Quote
"Kylo Ren is not a Sith. He works under Supreme Leader Snoke, who is a powerful figure on the Dark Side of the Force."

Therefore the Sith have not been seen in either movie.  And to say the Rule of Two ended when Darth Sidious died seems disingenuous at best.  If there were two, and two died, of course it wouldn't be in play.  That's not to say that it ended.  That's to say that the Sith ended.  At least as far as we know.  Sort of like the Sith in TPM was a return of the Sith by the words of the Jedi council.  Which is one of the downfalls of the Rule of Two.  You have to violate it for continuity of the Sith.  If Sidious did not violate it... the Sith are done as both died.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi ***SPOILERS WELCOME***
« Reply #63 on: Sat, 06 January 2018, 16:33:56 »
Just saw the movie with my son. The visuals were excellent and it was enjoyable to watch, but the story and presentation were desparately lame.

The plot was excruciatingly formulaic - the only time I was surprised and pleased was at the sight of a ship pointing straight at a battle cruiser at short range and warping through it. Almost everything else seemed like an extremely stale retread of a scene from one of the other movies, and, in particular, the entire gambling casino gambit was utterly gratuitous.

Rey has always been a good character, and Ren started to become mildly interesting, but the others were just pasteboard throwaways.

I found more to like in the Phantom Menace than I did here.

 
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi ***SPOILERS WELCOME***
« Reply #64 on: Sat, 06 January 2018, 20:34:19 »
If there were two, and two died, of course it wouldn't be in play.  That's not to say that it ended.  That's to say that the Sith ended.  At least as far as we know. 
Personally, I have never liked the idea of it, it's such a flawed idea to begin with.
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