Considering Switching To Dvorak -- Thoughts?

[janlonden]

I think people who defend QWERTY are like climate change deniers; they don't want anyone telling them anything that makes them question their beliefs.

So true

I highly recommend thetypingcat.com. I used it for practice when I switched to colemak.

[MajorMajor]

Dvorak Cons: Look at 'F'. Like what the **** is it doing there? Dvorak is a good step in the right direction, but the design is old as ****. While it did get a lot right, there is a lot of room for optimization.

This is all too true for me. I've been on DVORAK for ~4 weeks now, up to ~35 WPM, and the F key really is a pain in the ass. I would have liked to have it swapped with the K or B, or even Q or J.

[dusan]

The F is not bad. The staggered layout is.

I' ve been using an ortho-linear Dvorak keyboard for years. The F, as well as P, work just fine.

[rebus]

Totally agree. I also use Dvorak with a Kinesis Advantage and a Typematrix with great comfort and no trouble at all when hitting the F key

[keyhopper]

I have no problem with the F key in Dvorak.
But I do catch myself using the ring finger instead of the pinky for the L key.

Cheers!

[MajorMajor]

On a staggered layout, the X and F require the most finger movement for me. Everything else is a breeze, maybe I should try a non-staggered layout sometime.

Up to 40 WPM now, slow and steady...

[skullydazed]

I've been typing Dvorak for 15 years now, I first started learning because of RSI issues. I've never found a speed improvement. My typing speed with qwerty was ~45wpm, and after a couple months of Dvorak I plateaued at ~45wpm. Now I'm up to around 60wpm, but I think that's mostly a factor of how fast I can transfer instructions from my brain to my fingers, not how fast I am able to type. To this day I can type both Dvorak and qwerty at about the same speed (although with fewer errors on Dvorak.)

Comfort is another story. A couple hours of qwerty and my wrists are feeling it. I can type all day long with Dvorak.

[mashby]

I came across this comic today and had to share: http://www.pvponline.com/comic/2015/03/19/keystroke

[nomaded]

I came across this comic today and had to share: http://www.pvponline.com/comic/2015/03/19/keystroke

Heh. My wife showed me that last night. We both had a good chuckle -- both of us have been typing Dvorak (DSK) for over 10 years.

[rsac]

Regarding Plover, it's great for dictation, but like all dictation techniques (which are designed for rapidly jotting down speech concepts), it requires parsing afterwards to turn it into readable text and it's not very useful for tasks like programming.

I'm not sure what you mean by parsing afterwards. Computers do that job in real time. That is actually the whole point of Plover and similar software. And if you make a mistake, just go back and correct it like you would in a normal keyboard. Here a demo of text editing with Vim and Plover.

Mirabai speaks of 6 months of real training to get to 120 wpm and then one year or more (up to infinite) to get to 220WPM. It seems much harder to learn than a new keyboard layout. On the other hand, it is a completely different skill from normal typing, and thus really won't clash with your QWERTY typing skills. Mirabai retains her 100+ wpm on qwerty.

I would only advise steno if text input speed is really a bottleneck for what you do (or plan to do) AND you only need to type in a single language (that works much better if you are a native english speaker...). On the other hand, Mirabai advises it even for programming: http://plover.stenoknight.com/2010/04/writing-and-coding-with-steno.html

If you want the best general purpose typing efficiency, a well designed ergo board (with thumb keys) and properly analysed and tested character layout is about the best you can do.

Well, there is also Proword shorthand method, to type less w/o a huge up front learning curve.

[Korth]

Some of the newer layouts make it easier for a qwerty typist to switch easier. Also the right pinky in dvorak gets a lot of use.

Gotta give that right pinky more of a workout, lol.  I could find no right-hand-only analogue for typing the horrible word "stewardesses".

Not that I actually end up typing "stewardesses" all that often.  I don't fly a lot, and I can't think of any other good way to really interact with stewardesses, much as I'd like to hope and dream.

[ideus]

I've been typing Dvorak for 15 years now, I first started learning because of RSI issues. I've never found a speed improvement. My typing speed with qwerty was ~45wpm, and after a couple months of Dvorak I plateaued at ~45wpm. Now I'm up to around 60wpm, but I think that's mostly a factor of how fast I can transfer instructions from my brain to my fingers, not how fast I am able to type. To this day I can type both Dvorak and qwerty at about the same speed (although with fewer errors on Dvorak.)

Comfort is another story. A couple hours of qwerty and my wrists are feeling it. I can type all day long with Dvorak.

It would be interesting if you share what movements do you think was reduced, with Dvorak, that alleviated your wrists pain.

[skullydazed]

I just tried typing a few sentences with qwerty to figure out what I don't like, and it seems like two things mostly. The first impression I had is that my hands moved around a lot more with qwerty. I was always going up and down or back and forth. The second was hand alternation. There's just a lot more hand alternation with Dvorak, or at least more comfortable transitions when you do have to type with the same hand.

Take a look at "Just" for example, even though "ju" are both typed with the index finger, with qwerty you are going from the home row up, which means moving your hands up a bit to hit the U. With Dvorak you use the index finger of your left hand, but since the J is down you just move your finger down to hit it and not your whole hand.

[Tony]

Colemak is a better alternative than Dvorak.

Colemak keep 10 same keys (QWAHZXCVBM )with Qwerty, while Dvorak has only 2 same keys (AH). That means you can learn Colemak faster.

ZXCV the same means your habit of copy paste cut remains unchanged.

GG "Colemak or Dvorak" for more opinions.

[davkol]

Colemak is a better alternative than Dvorak.

No, it isn't, unless additional criteria are specified.

Colemak keep 10 same keys (QWAHZXCVBM )with Qwerty, while Dvorak has only 2 same keys (AH). That means you can learn Colemak faster.

That is pure speculation.

Or, it might be faster to learn Colemak, but at the cost of losing proficiency on QWERTY, due to altered muscle memory. Colemak is not a standard by any means, unlike Dvorak Simplified Keyboard.

ZXCV the same means your habit of copy paste cut remains unchanged.

You are ignoring Dvorak-QWERTY layouts. One even comes out of the box with OS X that OP uses. Unlike Colemak, Dvorak-QWERTY doesn't move S in shortcuts.

[steve.v]

Colemak typer. Used Dvorak before; right pinky started hating it. Switched and been happier ever since. It's all personal preference when qwerty is taken out.

[MajorMajor]

I don't understand this talk about right pinky issues... I think if you used your right pinky properly in QWERTY, you'll be fine. Regardless of which keyboard layout you use, being able to use all 10 fingers adeptly is going to increase your productivity.

[Oobly]

I don't understand this talk about right pinky issues... I think if you used your right pinky properly in QWERTY, you'll be fine. Regardless of which keyboard layout you use, being able to use all 10 fingers adeptly is going to increase your productivity.

Dvorak... overloads the right pinkie for certain combinations, such as "ls -ls".

[keyhopper]

[..]
Dvorak... overloads the right pinkie for certain combinations, such as "ls -ls".

You are right, that is why I always use this alias:

         alias l='ls -l'

and just type 'l'. I always put this in:

         /home/<my_user>/.bashrc

in every machine I own or have to log on to.
If it's a shared login, I just run it in the shell:    alias l='ls -l'
and that lasts for until I log out.

Cannot live without 'l'   

Also:
        alias la='ls -lA'

        alias gr='grep -i'
        alias rgr='grep -ril'

Cheers!
.KeyHopper.

[dndlmx]

Colemak FTW. It might seem goofy at first, but Dvorak seems even goofier to me.

[vindaon]

I really like Colemak too, especially the rolls. I think the main thing is too get away from qwerty. Maybe you could argue which is better between Colemak and Dvorak, but to me the difference isn't that great. It becomes preference at that point imo.

[keyhopper]

I really like Colemak too, especially the rolls. I think the main thing is too get away from qwerty. Maybe you could argue which is better between Colemak and Dvorak, but to me the difference isn't that great. It becomes preference at that point imo.

> I think the main thing is too get away from qwerty.

Couldn't agree more. 

Touch typing without looking is tons of times easier when getting away from Qwerty. And I mean not even peeking, not even for passwords.
True touch typing.

Just the fact of being able to truly touch type will improve posture, at least a little bit.

After trying Dvorak or Colemak, and only then, people can appreciate what a veritable unmitigated disaster Qwerty is.

Cheers!!
.KeyHopper.

[Koren]

That being said, I do believe dvorak is the better layout.  A scientifically designed effort to make the most frequently-used letters and letter sequences more easy to reach faster, and with minimal effort. As opposed to qwerty, which was essentially the exact opposite - a deliberate misarrangement of keys designed to slow typing down on ancient typewriters so that their mechanical levers wouldn't jam and tangle up as often.

Please stop with this...

Qwerty is also designed on logical basis, although a bit less strictly than Dvorak. But on different basis: large use upper row (because thoses keys are easier on a typewriter...), rolls (like 'rew') and avoid digrams that could jam the mechanism.

The "misarrangement to slow people down" is purely an urban legend (although a commonly repeated one, probably based on a misunderstanding... they indeed moved the keys from ABCDE... ordering to avoid the jams, but not by randomizing them)


Dvorak advocate the use of alternate hands and avoid rolls, which is a choice...

There's nothing really scientific in those layouts, you just choose a metric, and try to optimize the keyboard for that metric, but it's difficult to say which metric is the best.

In any event, note that every alternative layout is designed based on some set of personal opinions/models about what constitutes a good layout. None of them as far as I can tell are backed by good empirical evidence about the hand motions involved in typing letter combinations.

This.

I don't like Dvorak because I prefer rolls to strict alternance of hands. I play music a bit, and I've always found rolls easier to perform at high speed than and alternance.

I also have to use azerty keyboards sometimes, so I value the fact that x/c/v/s/z don't move. I've optimized my layout using my own metrics, using my own corpus of text/source code, and I'm pretty happy with it... It's a matter of taste.

(Although unfortunately, it's difficult to source labeled keys for alternate layouts on non-ISO keyboards... Yes, I'm a touch typer, but I still prefer labeled keys just for aesthetic reasons)

[davkol]

There's nothing really scientific in those layouts, you just choose a metric, and try to optimize the keyboard for that metric, but it's difficult to say which metric is the best.

Sooo, what about experimental time/motion studies? Corpus analysis? Error analysis? Learning methodology? (Is psychology a science?)

[Koren]

Sooo, what about experimental time/motion studies? Corpus analysis? Error analysis? Learning methodology? (Is psychology a science?)

I don't think those studies say that a layout is definitively "better" than another... At least honest ones.

For example, You can do studies of what kind of motion each layout will use more, but you still need to prove that a given motion is better or worse. You can measure speed, and error-rate. But those are closely linked to training, and thus it's difficult to conclude anything. What do you conclude about person X typing faster and with less error with layout A than person Y on layout B ?

If I'm not mistaken, most typing speed records have been performed on Qwerty layouts, I wouldn't conclude that's the best layout using those metrics... Some of the best typist also think that the "one key = one finger" is a mistake (and I agree *), and I don't think I've ever encountered a layout study that consider this kind of thing.

(* on a similar matter, my accordion teacher has a strict rule: NEVER hit the same key with the same finger twice in a row. Indeed, you press better a key twice in succession if you change your finger. And he trained a couple person who won national championships, so I'll trust him on this anyway. Chromatics accordions and keyboard have enough in common to think that they share some ergonomics tricks)


Those studies ARE interesting, but I don't think they constitute a formal and scientific proof of the superiority of a given layout. There's an interesting thing about Ussain Bolt. His running has been studied: he's doing everything wrong (he's even physiologically unable to be a really fast runner). I find him quite efficient, myself, on the running track.


Take one of the Dvorak principle: alternation as much as possible. I've yet to see a convincing study that proove that it's indeed better than rolls (I don't even think it's possible to prove this, or the opposite). After finding the software Amphetype, I decided to program my own software to check my slowest and fastest digrams/trigrams, and found that indeed I type several rolls (especially on adjacent keys with the strongest fingers, such as 'er' and 'ui') faster than alternating digrams.


There's also something I've seen by using my own corpus and tweeked metrics to design my "ideal" layout: I've used 80% of what I typed in the past ~10 years (which is a huge corpus) and... my top 5 letters aren't even the same as the "top 5 letters" of the languages I speak (Mine is E-T-N-I-R, while, according for example to Wikipedia, N is 6th in both english and french, and R is 7th in french and 9th in english).

Even assuming that you COULD define the best layouts based on letters and digrams statistics, since each person types different things, each person will get a different layout. With exactly the same rules as Dvorak (or programmer-Dvorak, or Bépo, french equivalent), you'll get far different layouts.


There's bad layouts (imagine all vowels on the pinkies) and good layouts. Dvorak and variants, Colemak, Bépo, NEO, Workman, Maltron, Asset, Capewell and many others I don't remember all probably have their advantages and issues. You can pick the one that fits you the best, or adapt it to your needs (some have stronger fingers, other not so much, etc.) I don't think there's a definitive metric to order them, even on a given corpus.

[davkol]

Ugh. I don't even know where to start.

There's nothing really scientific in those layouts, you just choose a metric, and try to optimize the keyboard for that metric, but it's difficult to say which metric is the best.

Scientific method

I recommend at least reading the original Dvorak's or Malt's work. The methodology or might be questionable here and there, but I don't see, how "there's nothing really scientific".

[Koren]

I recommend at least reading the original Dvorak's or Malt's work. The methodology or might be questionable here and there, but I don't see, how "there's nothing really scientific".

I think you misunderstand me, most probably because I've worded badly my thoughts (and I really shouldn't have said there's nothing really scientific in the layouts, my bad, and apologies for this)

It's indeed a scientific approach of the layout problem. They tend to develop the best layout for given metrics.

The issue would be to prove that the chosen metrics are better than others. You can't use theory to prove it, it has to be by practical experiments. But each study recognize that you can't make a perfect experiment, because you would need the identical persons that train and use (for a long time) different layouts to do the same thing.


I wouldn't dare to say that mathematics are not scientific. But you can't prove that they're right, since they're based on axioms (Euclid's for example, Peano's works, etc.). You can prove the self-coherence, or that they are true when admitting the axioms.


If you want, I don't have problems with saying that Dvorak keyboard reduces the fingers vertical motion compared to X layout on a given corpus of text. Can be scientifically checked.

I think it's far harder to prove that "vertical motion is worse than lateral motion", "forefinger should be used twice more than little finger", "alternation are better than roll", etc. The only metrics should be pain/comfort and typing speed, but the measure of this is virtually impossible (long time-measurements, different training, different individuals, etc.)

If a layout is really bad, the difference can be seen more easily, but when we compare good layouts, the benefits are probably so small that any measurements falls into the incertaincy of the measurements.


I hope I can convey a bit what I mean, it's not easy on a forum :/

[davkol]

The issue would be to prove that the chosen metrics are better than others.

The metrics are based on experiments, such as the time/motion studies. They're discussed in the original patents/papers/book.

[Koren]

The issue would be to prove that the chosen metrics are better than others.

The metrics are based on experiments, such as the time/motion studies. They're discussed in the original patents/papers/book.

I know, I've read a lot of them (research papers, mostly), even used them to design my own layout, and I still don't think those measurements prove you'll feel less pain or type faster after years of training, especially when the differences for good keyboard are usually tiny (and may change if you change a bit the corpus).

[Oobly]

Another way to judge layouts is from people's experiences of them. For instance many don't like the right pinkie usage on Dvorak, etc.

It really is a personal choice about which metrics you value most highly, but it's hard to conciously know which really are the most effective for your particular case. They may not be the ones you think they are in the end. If you could become proficient with all the popular alternate layouts you could figure out which has been optimised the best for your use cases, but this is not practical.

IMO, the best way to go about this is to use a software like the AdNW one and feed it the metrics you THINK are most important to you, a corpus which represents the majority of what you tend to type, a physical layout you THINK will suit you best and let it optimise a custom layout for you. Try that out, and fix it if there's something definitely wrong. This way you can also work out if the metrics you fed it really are the ones that matter to you. If not you can start the optimisation again with adjusted metrics. The computer can analyse and optimise faster than doing it manually, but manual testing is vital to the process.

This is the route I have taken. I started with a physical layout, applied a modified Bu-Teck layout which I generated with English corpus and have since been figuring out which parts of the layout could be better in my case. So far I have modified the positions of 4 main layout characters and a few symbols on the Fn layers. Now I am very happy with my layout, although I'm sure there COULD be a very slightly better one out there, but the time and effort it would take to find it would not balance the benefit over my already VERY good (for me) layout.

The issue would be to prove that the chosen metrics are better than others.

The metrics are based on experiments, such as the time/motion studies. They're discussed in the original patents/papers/book.

I know, I've read a lot of them (research papers, mostly), even used them to design my own layout, and I still don't think those measurements prove you'll feel less pain or type faster after years of training, especially when the differences for good keyboard are usually tiny (and may change if you change a bit the corpus).

The physical layout and typing technique are more important than the character layout for reducing the chance of long term injury, although both Colemak and Dvorak can help reduce the finger movement and related stresses.

[MajorMajor]

The only reason why I went with DVORAK over Colemak is that Colemak isn't standard on some OS's yet. At my current job I can install it on my work laptop if I really wanted to, but I know if I change jobs, they might keep their machines more locked down and I 'd be screwed.

Also, if I had to use a keyboard for an interview or certification test, etc. it's unlikely they'd let me install anything new things on their system. After using DVORAK for 6 months or so, I don't have any regrets. I'm fine playing it safe even though learning Colemak would have been easier, I just hit 80 WPM yesterday so I seem to be doing fine.

[Oobly]

The only reason why I went with DVORAK over Colemak is that Colemak isn't standard on some OS's yet. At my current job I can install it on my work laptop if I really wanted to, but I know if I change jobs, they might keep their machines more locked down and I 'd be screwed.

Also, if I had to use a keyboard for an interview or certification test, etc. it's unlikely they'd let me install anything new things on their system. After using DVORAK for 6 months or so, I don't have any regrets. I'm fine playing it safe even though learning Colemak would have been easier, I just hit 80 WPM yesterday so I seem to be doing fine.

You could also just buy a reprogrammable board and program the layout into it. Will work on any PC you plug it into. IMHO, software / OS support for a layout is not a good reason to choose one over another. I still prefer Dvorak over Colemak, though, for various reasons.

[davkol]

Same security measures apply.

[MajorMajor]

The only reason why I went with DVORAK over Colemak is that Colemak isn't standard on some OS's yet. At my current job I can install it on my work laptop if I really wanted to, but I know if I change jobs, they might keep their machines more locked down and I 'd be screwed.

Also, if I had to use a keyboard for an interview or certification test, etc. it's unlikely they'd let me install anything new things on their system. After using DVORAK for 6 months or so, I don't have any regrets. I'm fine playing it safe even though learning Colemak would have been easier, I just hit 80 WPM yesterday so I seem to be doing fine.

You could also just buy a reprogrammable board and program the layout into it. Will work on any PC you plug it into. IMHO, software / OS support for a layout is not a good reason to choose one over another. I still prefer Dvorak over Colemak, though, for various reasons.

That still doesn't address my second example though, unless you want to carry your programmable keyboard with you to every interview or any place you might need to use a keyboard. For example, I went home to visit my parents last weekend and didn't need to bring a keyboard or install anything on their system for the brief time I used their PC (<10 minutes). I see that if I was really dedicated to Colemak I could find ways to use it, but I don't see any sizable advantage over DVORAK that makes up for ease of use.

[Oobly]

The only reason why I went with DVORAK over Colemak is that Colemak isn't standard on some OS's yet. At my current job I can install it on my work laptop if I really wanted to, but I know if I change jobs, they might keep their machines more locked down and I 'd be screwed.

Also, if I had to use a keyboard for an interview or certification test, etc. it's unlikely they'd let me install anything new things on their system. After using DVORAK for 6 months or so, I don't have any regrets. I'm fine playing it safe even though learning Colemak would have been easier, I just hit 80 WPM yesterday so I seem to be doing fine.

You could also just buy a reprogrammable board and program the layout into it. Will work on any PC you plug it into. IMHO, software / OS support for a layout is not a good reason to choose one over another. I still prefer Dvorak over Colemak, though, for various reasons.

That still doesn't address my second example though, unless you want to carry your programmable keyboard with you to every interview or any place you might need to use a keyboard. For example, I went home to visit my parents last weekend and didn't need to bring a keyboard or install anything on their system for the brief time I used their PC (<10 minutes). I see that if I was really dedicated to Colemak I could find ways to use it, but I don't see any sizable advantage over DVORAK that makes up for ease of use.

The way I did things (use a very different layout from QWERTY on a fully ergonomic physical layout) works for this scenario, too. You keep your QWERTY skillset at a decent level, so you can use other people's machines without any significant slowdown.

[Korth]

I wouldn't dare to say that mathematics are not scientific. But you can't prove that they're right, since they're based on axioms (Euclid's for example, Peano's works, etc.). You can prove the self-coherence, or that they are true when admitting the axioms.

Not wanting (too much) to troll off-topic, but it's so hard to resist this one ... there is a little something called Godel's Incompleteness Theorem which sort of applies to your above statement ...

I do agree, however, with all your statements about Dvorak, lol.

[nick2253]

To add an anecdote to the discussion:

I switched to Dvorak Simplified Keyboard about 8 years ago, and I think it was honestly one of the best decisions I've ever made.  It was my freshman year of college, and I forced myself to do all my final papers in DSK.  That was a really painful experience, as I was a 90+WPM QWERTY typist, and I was suddenly typing at ~20WPM.  However, I got through it, and I was really happy with it.  In a month, I was up to 100WPM with DSK.  The biggest improvement with DSK is that I felt like my hands are much more controlled.  In QWERTY, I feel like I'm flying all over the keyboard.  I honestly find typing to be a much more enjoyable experience.  I used to get terrible cramps in my hands after marathon typing sessions with QWERTY, and with DSK, I no longer have that problem.

Over the years, I've lapsed my QWERTY proficiency, even though I work in IT and have to use QWERTY fairly regularly.  I can 10-finger hunt-and-peck at around 30-40 WPM with QWERTY, and I find that that's sufficient for my work.  If I really cared, I could probably get back to 90+WPM with QWERTY, but I honestly don't care.

As some people have said, I didn't find my speeds improve dramatically with DSK.  I speculate that any speed increase I developed with DSK was probably more a factor of my renewed dedication to typing proficiency rather than an inherent benefit in DSK.  However, like I said, I find DSK to be seriously more comfortable to type on than QWERTY.

The one problem that I had to adjust to was the modifier keys.  That really threw me for a loop at first.  However, I find I now have two modes of doing stuff:  when I'm mousing, I use the right-click menu, and when I'm tying with both hands on the keyboard, I use the modifier keys.  That works for me, though I know some people don't like it.

When I was deciding to switch, I chose DSK because it was available on all OSes, while Colemak was not.  If I were to switch today, I could see myself choosing Colemak.  However, I have no interest in switching away from DKS to something that's a best a sidegrade.  And I'm not particularly interest in switching to a personalized layout, since it wouldn't be available wherever I go.

The biggest downside with DSK was when I took my GREs.  The written portion of the GRE was on a computer, and I didn't think about it until after I started, but the computer was configured with QWERTY (obviously), so I had to hunt and peck my way through that paper.  In the end, I still did well enough for what I needed, but that was the only time I've been "Oh ****, maybe I shouldn't have switched."

EDIT:  One thing I thought I'd add is that I use QWERTY for almost all my passwords.  This is primarily so that my password muscle memory works when I'm on a QWERTY keyboard, which is actually what I would be using when typing in most of my passwords (on my computers, I use a password manager).  In Windows, you can hit Ctrl+Shift (or any combination you choose) to switch between different keyboard layouts.

[nothing4me]

I think the best thing you can do is sticking to QWERTY (so you can still use other keyboards), but just remapping your two most used keys (there is an online keyboard tool that measures that). For me, it was shift and ctrl. I was always using my pinky. But, now that I've moved them, it feels a lot more comfy to type! 

[Oobly]

...it's not very useful for tasks like programming.

...Mirabai advises it even for programming: http://plover.stenoknight.com/2010/04/writing-and-coding-with-steno.html

...

Quote from that very article: "I still haven't managed to find a good solution to programming using the steno keyboard"

It's simply not viable for coding in a symbol-rich language which uses very few real words and unique function and variable names. I stick with my statement that for general use, and particularly coding, a well designed ergo board with thumb clusters and a well-designed layout is the best. It also has the benefit of not requiring any specific software on the system to parse, so you can plug it into anything and simply type, and the learning curve is MUCH shorter than Plover. For dictation and prose, where you can install whatever you like on the PC then sure, I can see it being handy, but it just doesn't suit my situation.

[knightjp]

1. Qwerty 125 wpm
2. Dvorak 60 wpm
3. Workman 45 wpm
4. Colemak 100 wpm

I prefer finger rolls over alternations. Dvorak used too much of my right pinky. Colemak uses my right hand a little too much. I like capslock as my backspace on Colemak. No layout is worth changing unless your wrists hurts from typing; as mine did with qwerty and now there's no more pain. Expect a moment of not being able to type at all; kinetic finger memory collision.

what layout do you use now?

[knightjp]

I chose DVORAK over Colemak due to Colemak not being built into major OS. I don't want to be in a position of looking like a goofus hunting and pecking when I need to use someone's PC.

Only Mac doesn't come loaded with Colemak; can be installed easily.

 Correction... Mac OS X does have Colemak. Only Windows does not have Colemak at all. Most Linux versions have Colemak too.

[steve.v]

1. Qwerty 125 wpm
2. Dvorak 60 wpm
3. Workman 45 wpm
4. Colemak 100 wpm

I prefer finger rolls over alternations. Dvorak used too much of my right pinky. Colemak uses my right hand a little too much. I like capslock as my backspace on Colemak. No layout is worth changing unless your wrists hurts from typing; as mine did with qwerty and now there's no more pain. Expect a moment of not being able to type at all; kinetic finger memory collision.

what layout do you use now?

I use Colemak

[algernon]

I am in the process of switching from QWERTY to Dvorak. My QWERTY speed is around 100 WPM, Dvorak is around 50 now. My right hand is giving me trouble, and wants to type QWERTY all the time, but it's getting better, I'm just incredibly slow at the switch (~4 months now, but I haven't been typing a lot at day job in that time).

I game on Dvorak (most games I play, use a controller, or a mouse mostly, or I can remap keys; I can't reacall a single one where Dvorak was an issue), and whenever I need to use another computer, I bring my own keyboard, or fumble around with QWERTY, if I have to use a computer without my keyboard being with me. Mind you, the amount of time I didn't know in advance that I will need to use another computer, and wasn't able to bring my own keyboard is exactly zero, in the past six years.

I choose Dvorak over Colemak, because Dvorak is more different, and I wanted a very clear, hard switch, and none of the benefits of Colemak I often hear about (easier learning curve, among other things) appealed to me. Having typed on Dvorak for the past 4 months, I already feel the difference. My speed may be half of what it used to be, but my hands feel more comfortable. This is very subjective, mind you, I have no hard evidence why Dvorak may be better, or why QWERTY sucks. But Dvorak works for me, and I had no problems with games, nor with using other people's keyboard (I can still type QWERTY, even if not at 100 WPM anymore, 60-70 is still perfectly fine, would I need to use such a layout). The only difficulty is learning it, but that's because my right hand is a dumbass.

[-musubi]

Can't even imagine switching from QWERTY, but it does kind of suck that we've inherited this old school layout that was created only from a functional point of a type writer

[skullydazed]

Can't even imagine switching from QWERTY, but it does kind of suck that we've inherited this old school layout that was created only from a functional point of a type writer

That's the reason I really want to teach my daughter Dvorak from the start, but I'm also worried about how much that would hamper her at school, early career, etc. I think she'd be so much happier to have never learned qwerty, but the world is not yet amenable to that.

[henz]

I joined the Dvorak club last week. Went all in, at about 16/17 wpm

[ideus]

Can't even imagine switching from QWERTY, but it does kind of suck that we've inherited this old school layout that was created only from a functional point of a type writer

That's the reason I really want to teach my daughter Dvorak from the start, but I'm also worried about how much that would hamper her at school, early career, etc. I think she'd be so much happier to have never learned qwerty, but the world is not yet amenable to that.

You are gonna make her an outcast for any computing related experience, do you see her carrying her own board along with her lap top? do you see her unable to use any regular keyboard?

[-musubi]

Can't even imagine switching from QWERTY, but it does kind of suck that we've inherited this old school layout that was created only from a functional point of a type writer

That's the reason I really want to teach my daughter Dvorak from the start, but I'm also worried about how much that would hamper her at school, early career, etc. I think she'd be so much happier to have never learned qwerty, but the world is not yet amenable to that.

You are gonna make her an outcast for any computing related experience, do you see her carrying her own board along with her lap top? do you see her unable to use any regular keyboard?

Yeah that's the problem, QWERTY is so deeply embedded that it can't just be taken out overnight. Kind of relates to a lot of things in the world, maintaining legacy compatibility but at the same time phasing it out eventually.

[ideus]

Can't even imagine switching from QWERTY, but it does kind of suck that we've inherited this old school layout that was created only from a functional point of a type writer

That's the reason I really want to teach my daughter Dvorak from the start, but I'm also worried about how much that would hamper her at school, early career, etc. I think she'd be so much happier to have never learned qwerty, but the world is not yet amenable to that.

You are gonna make her an outcast for any computing related experience, do you see her carrying her own board along with her lap top? do you see her unable to use any regular keyboard?

Yeah that's the problem, QWERTY is so deeply embedded that it can't just be taken out overnight. Kind of relates to a lot of things in the world, maintaining legacy compatibility but at the same time phasing it out eventually.

Unless some mighty force push the world into a different reality, I do not see any easy way to replace qwerty as the main keyboard standard for general computing.

[klennkellon]

pretty much, Qwerty is not ideal but it's just good enough.