Author Topic: De Correspondent Layout (layout for Dutch)  (Read 2621 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JackMills

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 153
De Correspondent Layout (layout for Dutch)
« on: Wed, 22 October 2014, 08:13:39 »
I just found this article at Carpalx about a layout for De Correspondent ( a dutch online magazine) which would be optimized for Dutch.

http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?de_correspondent

I was, with programming my own layout in mind, trying to figure out my own layout. I wanted to see if I could validate it when I stumbled upon this article. It seems a good layout and I like Martin's analysis, but I would like to know how the Correspondent or the Hogendoorn layout score when tested against an English corpus. As a dutch-speaking IT person I seem to be typing on average about 60-65% in dutch and the rest is English (international communication, programming). A hybrid layout would be something I am interested in personally.

I tried to adjust Colemak a bit (not much science with that, just what is the letter frequency and some trying out, seeing what is easier. Maybe I should have a look into digram and finger travel):

z w f g j b h u y
a r s t d l n e i o
q c p v x k m

Any other dutch speaking geekhackers who have ventured in creating more dutch specific layouts?

Offline PieterGen

  • Posts: 135
Re: De Correspondent Layout (layout for Dutch)
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 22 October 2014, 08:37:31 »
Yes. I am the author of that other layout  :D  There is a lot to read in this thread I posted on Deskthority 

A great piece of software is from the AndW guys, which I discovered after my discussion with Carpalx. I downloaded it and I compiled it the other day, but I have not run it yet. Here is the  C++ sourcecode  MTGAP is great as well. Here is the  source, it's written in C by the way, but it focusses maybe (?) too much on low distance at the expense of finger load and hand balance.

Feel free to send me a PM if you want to discuss this in Dutch.
« Last Edit: Wed, 22 October 2014, 08:40:57 by PieterGen »

Offline JackMills

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 153
Re: De Correspondent Layout (layout for Dutch)
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 22 October 2014, 09:12:19 »
Yes. I am the author of that other layout  :D  There is a lot to read in this thread I posted on Deskthority 

A great piece of software is from the AndW guys, which I discovered after my discussion with Carpalx. I downloaded it and I compiled it the other day, but I have not run it yet. Here is the  C++ sourcecode  MTGAP is great as well. Here is the  source, it's written in C by the way, but it focusses maybe (?) too much on low distance at the expense of finger load and hand balance.

Feel free to send me a PM if you want to discuss this in Dutch.

Thanks for the links. I will be looking into them. The analysis are always a bit subjective, but I find it good to see some comparisons between layout.

My primary goal would be to take as much load of the pinkies as possible, because they hurt the most (especially now with the weather getting more moist).
I started with placing the 10 most common used letters in Dutch on the home row, but I haven't thought about row jumping, same fingertyping or even same hand typing.

Are you using your layout fulltime? I am interested in your experience with switching the punctuation keys to the left hand. And also interested on how you implemented your layout. (I am currently on Windows and without a programmable keyboard, so I was thinking to create an AutoHotKey script).

Edit: I emailed the writer of the article for De Correspondent to know if she is using her newly created layout or not, I am curious for her response.
« Last Edit: Wed, 22 October 2014, 09:14:32 by JackMills »

Offline PieterGen

  • Posts: 135
Re: De Correspondent Layout (layout for Dutch)
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 22 October 2014, 10:54:06 »
Hello Jack - hand designing a layout is very hard, because there are so many factors to look into. That's why it may be a good idea to look into software that does this for you. I mentioned MTGAP and ADNW. Both very good. You can change lots of the values they use. Such as penalties for pinky use. Some values can be changed at runtime, sometimes you have to change the code a bit before compiling. MTGAP is in C; ADNW in C++. AdnW is more precise in the sense that you can specify that (on the same hand) you prefer (on a qwerty layout) AF over AS, because the latter is 2 weak neigbouring fingers in a row. MTGAP does not have this " neighbouring" factor.

The standard penalties for the positions (qwerty t, y and b are hard to reach) look sane in MTGAP and AdnW. I find the standard Carpalx penalties not quite right. It sees all home row positions as equal; all top row positions are equal too; and all bottom row positions are equal as well. I feel that in Correspondent2
QFKLMWVUJY[]\
SDTNRIAEOG'
;ZBHXPC,./

M, W, R and I are in suboptimal positions, while C, F and K are in too good positions. I think!  Maybe you can change those values as well, the source of the Carpalx program is available, it is written in Perl. Of which I know nothing  :) So I did not dive into it.

I am using my AIENH layout, alhough I agree with Carpalx criticism that it can have too long strings of letters on the left hand. Short distance has won, at the expense of hand alternation. This gives a bit unbalanced feel, just like Colemak or Qwerty by the way. That's is why I calculated a much more balanced version, which is actually better:
. u o f y q p l m w
a i e s h c d n t r
: , ? k x b g v z j

This is a very good layout for Dutch/English. You may try it in patorjk. Just start with qwerty and move keys until you have this layout. You can't upload new layouts in patorjk anymore, that's why you have to do it this way. BTW, these are the shift positions: ./  :;  ,<   ?>   
Just copy some Dutch and English text, paste it and run patorjk.  Use the score that patorjk gives with caution: a score is only as good as its algorithm.

While AIESH is really good, I feel it can be even better, if you pay attention to neighbouring fingers. I found that rolls may be nice but more alternation is better. That's why I'm looking at AdnW. The standard AdnW is already nice and has an extremely good hand alternation, but I will calculate a version for Dutch/English which must be better for my use.


HOW did I change? I'm using Linux and Windows. On my Linux computers, I changed a XKB file. I made a bash alias to quickly change layouts (in case someone need my computer for a while). A better way would be to make a new user ("guest"), that you give a normal qwerty layout. At work I am forced to use windows machines. I made an AutoHotKey script, as you were thinking of as well. I was lazy and started with a script made by Dreymar from the Colemak forums. I changed one of those files a bit, look into it, it is not hard.

The trouble with Windows is however that many programs look for the scancodes that are linked (by the keyboard firmware) to physical keys. So, the AutoHotKey script puts V on a different key, but for ctrl-V I still need the " old" V. Same for ctrl-X, ctrl-P and so on. This is confusing, because Linux does this right. So, ctrl-V is on my laptop on the new V, but at work on the old V.  I think there are trick to improve this somewhat, but I haven't found the time. But, anyway, yes AutoHotKey it is for Windows. Put it on an USB and you are golden.

Then there is the learning. If you already touch type, swhitching is hard; if you don't touch type you have to learn that as well, and then switching is hellish hard. But it can be done, I did it. A second switch is faster btw. I use Amphetype (see GitHub). Amphetype need words for lessons, I made lessons using:
- the most common digrams and trigrams in Dutch and English
- the 1000 most common words in Dutch
- the 1000 most common words in English

Amphetype is nice program, it gives stats on which letters you miss most, average speeds, accuracy percentages and so on. Start with 2 x 10 minutes of practice per day.

Your question was about punctuation on the left hand. That is no problem at all, zero adaptation time. Having : and ? without needing to use shift is pleasant too. I switched (like Colemak) backspace and capslock as well.

I do not know how IT-technical you are. If this is too technical, shoot me a PM if you need help with something, I'd be glad to help someone out. Even though I'm just a hobbyist myself and far from an expert.

Offline JackMills

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 153
Re: De Correspondent Layout (layout for Dutch)
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 27 October 2014, 03:20:32 »
I am looking at compiling the ADNW software, but I am not sure about the best way to do it. I use Visual Studio, but only for C#, so I never used the Visual C++. Not sure if it would be possible to compile it that way. So I am looking to setup another compiler in my Visual Studio, as I don't feel like installing Eclipse or Cygwin, I'd like to keep to one IDE.

Reading your explanation made me realize that my approach was a bit to optimistic. I'll spend some more research on what I like, for example I don't like the use of my pinkies a lot. I am currently collecting as much data as possible for the corpus, so that I can base it of a well balanced corpus that reflects my typing reality.

Lots to learn and to try out apparently.

Offline PieterGen

  • Posts: 135
Re: De Correspondent Layout (layout for Dutch)
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 27 October 2014, 05:15:30 »
Compile C++ easily with Clang. I use it in Linux for C++ but you can use it in Windows too:
The following details setting up for and building Clang on Windows using Visual Studio


By the way, there is a very useful Google Groups for ADNW

Offline PieterGen

  • Posts: 135
Re: De Correspondent Layout (layout for Dutch)
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 27 October 2014, 06:21:22 »
Some easy ways to reduce pinky use on a standard layout:
- bind ctrl-x ctrl-c ctrl-v ctrl-z to other keys, for example F1 F2 F3 F4 (how to do this depends on your operating system & programs)
- Swap ctrl and alt. So that the ctrl keys are closer to the space bar and can be used with thumbs
- get rid of the Shift keys. Reprogram Space, so that [hit]Space[release] = Space  and [hit] Space [keep pressed down] other key  =  Shift other key. The downside is that typing feels slower, because Space only activates on release of the spacebar, not immediately when hitting it
- maybe swap A and F;  so that the much used A is on the index (of course a real layout optimization would be way better but harder to learn)