Author Topic: Best way to spend $500 on a custom board for mac?  (Read 3427 times)

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Offline iwobobul

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Best way to spend $500 on a custom board for mac?
« on: Mon, 20 September 2021, 23:35:00 »
(Edited) Hey, I was looking for recommendations and this place seems suitable to ask. I have $500 budget for the board.

On a mac, looking to get a compact board, but work in software that needs F row and arrows. So I’m looking for a 75-85% board, but am excluding TKL layouts for compactness reasons (need more space for the mouse).

I am on a magic keyboard now. I nejoy the typing experience in general, but the rattly hi-pitch sound bothers me.

I use a TON of shortcuts, so I am looking for a board, where a Cmd (or whatever modifier button) is right under the X button, so I can stretch to reach complicated shortcuts, I cannot map Cmd to Caps Lock.

I need Mac compatibility so I can connect it to different mac computers without having to set it up. As a bonus I want at least some amount of backlight for night work, but that is the lowest priority.

There is currently no such keyboard on the market. and I need to go for a custom project.

Here is my desired layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/df2d07605048ad997aa4cb57f397e6db

I am a maker (I make lenses) so I have direct access to CNC, laser cutting facility, etc.

How should I approah this project?
« Last Edit: Tue, 05 October 2021, 07:20:09 by iwobobul »

Offline MIGHTY CHICKEN

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Re: Best way to spend $500?
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 20 September 2021, 23:36:30 »
The best way to spend $500 would be probably investing or saving instead of buying expensive rectangle :p

Offline lakeboredom

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Re: Best way to spend $500?
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 21 September 2021, 00:44:18 »
Obliterated75 is a solid first board. Would recommend more traditional tactile switches though.

Offline iwobobul

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Re: Best way to spend $500?
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 26 September 2021, 04:02:57 »
Obliterated75 is a solid first board. Would recommend more traditional tactile switches though.

Thank you.

One of the considerations I have now is the modifier cluster – I am looking for something that has wide Win, Alt and Ctrl and narrower space. None of the board I've listed seem to offer that tho.

Offline lakeboredom

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Re: Best way to spend $500?
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 26 September 2021, 12:30:24 »
Obliterated75 is a solid first board. Would recommend more traditional tactile switches though.

Thank you.

One of the considerations I have now is the modifier cluster – I am looking for something that has wide Win, Alt and Ctrl and narrower space. None of the board I've listed seem to offer that tho.
I wouldn't worry so much about getting your perfect layout to that degree. 1.5u mods go with 7u spacebar, it would look off any other way, like those silly cars with truck beds.

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Offline _rubik

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Re: Best way to spend $500?
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 26 September 2021, 12:42:03 »
A couple of things: "mac compatibility" is largely a hoax drummed up by Apple to sell their products and license. Command, option, etc -- all those keys map to OS agnostic keys like super and alt. I work on Macs almost exclusively these days and have never once considered "mac compatibility" -- all boards should do the trick.

As for your layout, are you OK with using layers? I would recommend a number of great compact boards (60-68%) at that price point without F-rows. For example, I use a 60% board these days, but have immediate access to arrow, nav, and function keys through a layer.

Also, are you comfortable soldering? If so, you'd have to factor the price of soldering equipment into your budget (if you don't have that covered already). If not, you should only look at hotswap boards. The Obliterated75 is a solder-pcb whereas the Instant60 PCB (great for the Brutal60 is hotswap).

As lake mentioned, anything in the Brutalist series from CannonKeys is great. At that price point you have wiggle room for switches and maybe some nice caps (depending on which board you go with). A Brutal60, pcb, plate, switches, and GMK caps would run you ~450-500.

GMMK Pro is also pretty highly praised in the community if you want something quick and easy.

Obligatory edit: the best way to spend 500 is on whatever makes you happy. There is no "best" or "right" way, as much as this hobby subconsciously makes you believe there is.
« Last Edit: Sun, 26 September 2021, 12:44:16 by _rubik »
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Offline iwobobul

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Re: Best way to spend $500?
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 28 September 2021, 08:18:03 »
A couple of things: "mac compatibility" is largely a hoax drummed up by Apple to sell their products and license. Command, option, etc -- all those keys map to OS agnostic keys like super and alt. I work on Macs almost exclusively these days and have never once considered "mac compatibility" -- all boards should do the trick.

As for your layout, are you OK with using layers? I would recommend a number of great compact boards (60-68%) at that price point without F-rows. For example, I use a 60% board these days, but have immediate access to arrow, nav, and function keys through a layer.

Also, are you comfortable soldering? If so, you'd have to factor the price of soldering equipment into your budget (if you don't have that covered already). If not, you should only look at hotswap boards. The Obliterated75 is a solder-pcb whereas the Instant60 PCB (great for the Brutal60 is hotswap).

As lake mentioned, anything in the Brutalist series from CannonKeys is great. At that price point you have wiggle room for switches and maybe some nice caps (depending on which board you go with). A Brutal60, pcb, plate, switches, and GMK caps would run you ~450-500.

GMMK Pro is also pretty highly praised in the community if you want something quick and easy.

Obligatory edit: the best way to spend 500 is on whatever makes you happy. There is no "best" or "right" way, as much as this hobby subconsciously makes you believe there is.

Thank you. I've been doign more digging/searching/asking aroudn the web and I'm sort of here now:

Because of the way I work I use a ton of shortcuts and they all involve CMD button. On my magic keyboard it's right under X button, so shortcuts like Cmd+Shift+M are doable with my left hand without much strain (I laso have large hands and long fingers). On most mechanical keyboards it seems that the Ctrl/Cmd button is in the middle between Z and X keys. I've tried remapping by CMD to Option button and I can't do shortcuts like Cmd+Shift+O with one hand anymore. It slows me down.

Someone suggested to remap Caps Lock to be Cmd, and I tried that – In deed for simple shortcuts it's quite intuitive and I had no problem after maybe 3 hours of getting used to it, but I have to use my pinky for that. Then, something like Cmd+Shift+M becomes completely impossible.

I guess my case is very rare, as what I want is pretty much a laptop/magic keyboard layout but with mechancial switches and in a nicer body with nicer caps. Googling reveals there were a few threads asking for this in the past, none received much replies. It seems liek an open spot in the market to me.

I found an EZO 84 board, but it uses EC switches and I am not familiar with those at all. I found a tofu (so no F row) wit ha custom PCB for Alps, that has my perfect layout, but afaik there are no 75-80% PCBs for alps either.

To answer the above question – I do need the F row. I use it all teh time for mac controls (brightness, play\pause, volume) but also with Fn button I use it for macros in various CAD and other professional apps. Same goes for arrow keys – I use them constantly to adjust object positioning in 3D for example.

The search continues I guess. At this point I am OK with soldering as it seems I will not be able to find something hot-swappable with this layout at all. Someone suggested hand-wiring and I am suuuper reluctant to do that, but if I don't find what I'm looking for I might go for it evenrually.

Thank you for all the answers.

Offline _rubik

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Re: Best way to spend $500?
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 28 September 2021, 11:36:38 »
Someone suggested hand-wiring and I am suuuper reluctant to do that, but if I don't find what I'm looking for I might go for it evenrually.

Don't handwire this -- there are certainly solderable and hotswap ~75% options alike. Bad suggestion for someone just getting into the hobby

Because of the way I work I use a ton of shortcuts and they all involve CMD button. On my magic keyboard it's right under X button, so shortcuts like Cmd+Shift+M are doable with my left hand without much strain (I laso have large hands and long fingers). On most mechanical keyboards it seems that the Ctrl/Cmd button is in the middle between Z and X keys. I've tried remapping by CMD to Option button and I can't do shortcuts like Cmd+Shift+O with one hand anymore. It slows me down.

Someone suggested to remap Caps Lock to be Cmd, and I tried that – In deed for simple shortcuts it's quite intuitive and I had no problem after maybe 3 hours of getting used to it, but I have to use my pinky for that. Then, something like Cmd+Shift+M becomes completely impossible.

I guess my case is very rare, as what I want is pretty much a laptop/magic keyboard layout but with mechancial switches and in a nicer body with nicer caps. Googling reveals there were a few threads asking for this in the past, none received much replies. It seems liek an open spot in the market to me.

Sounds like you need a [control, alt, super] bottom row which can be done with QMK/VIA. I have that mapping on my non-wkl boards so I can switch to the laptop without any "re-learning". As you noted though, the alignment is a little different (maybe 0.33u shifted) -- apple uses a non standard bottom row because... apple...

Matias might get you closer, but you're also using matias switches which have been proven less than reliable over the years.

If I could make any recommendation it would be to rework your key bindings so you don't have to stretch your hand across the entire board. Single handed cmd-O and cmd-M are absolutely brutal, even with cmd/x alignment. That you can do that normally is astounding.

Or maybe use your right hand?

I know that's not the feedback you were looking for, but I think you're seriously limiting your options by coupling yourself to a non-standard Apple layout and sub-optimal ergonomics.
« Last Edit: Tue, 28 September 2021, 11:38:31 by _rubik »
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Offline kajahtaa

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Re: Best way to spend $500?
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 28 September 2021, 14:04:30 »
Learn about QMK and see how many Devs use 40% before burning money

Offline ideus

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Re: Best way to spend $500?
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 28 September 2021, 14:45:07 »
Learn about QMK and see how many Devs use 40% before burning money


40s and most under TKLs are examples of how to pay more and get less in return. While occasional chorded calls for special characters are acceptable, requiring them for common symbols and characters does not make sense, it does not matter how many people have accepted the sacrifice.

Offline kajahtaa

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Re: Best way to spend $500?
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 28 September 2021, 15:05:45 »
Music made with more than one finger must be tragic given all the sacrifice

nope

Offline ddot

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Re: Best way to spend $500?
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 28 September 2021, 15:12:05 »
Do you ever use your left thumb to hit the space bar?  What if you got a split space bar and remapped the left half to command?

You should be able to do that with a KBD75.

https://kbdfans.com/collections/75-fully-assembled/products/fully-assembled-kbd75-v2-mechanical-keyboard

Offline ideus

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Re: Best way to spend $500?
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 28 September 2021, 15:26:27 »
I had and used a twiddler eons ago; it was a gray experience, to say the best.

Offline _rubik

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Re: Best way to spend $500?
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 28 September 2021, 17:29:49 »
Learn about QMK and see how many Devs use 40% before burning money


40s and most under TKLs are examples of how to pay more and get less in return. While occasional chorded calls for special characters are acceptable, requiring them for common symbols and characters does not make sense, it does not matter how many people have accepted the sacrifice.

I was writing a long comment about how anything less than 60% is sub-optimal for programming, and then I remembered the Atreus... literally made for Emacs/Lisp.

I think it depends how far you want to go and how much of a learning process you're willing to put up with.
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Offline ideus

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Re: Best way to spend $500?
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 28 September 2021, 23:41:37 »
Learn about QMK and see how many Devs use 40% before burning money


40s and most under TKLs are examples of how to pay more and get less in return. While occasional chorded calls for special characters are acceptable, requiring them for common symbols and characters does not make sense, it does not matter how many people have accepted the sacrifice.

I was writing a long comment about how anything less than 60% is sub-optimal for programming, and then I remembered the Atreus... literally made for Emacs/Lisp.

I think it depends how far you want to go and how much of a learning process you're willing to put up with.


 The mention of 40s is out of context, because, while it is true that most small keyboards could be used for most of the writing tasks with the proper adaptation and training, the question here is on what is the wisest way to invest a budget on a keyboard with F and arrow keys, that out rules anything under TKL/75. Users of under TKL/75 boards make compromises to adapt their needs to a constrained typing area, while doable, they have reasons beyond functionality to do so, there is nothing in the thread to think that it would be the case here.
« Last Edit: Tue, 28 September 2021, 23:45:33 by ideus »

Offline aerOcraft

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Re: Best way to spend $500?
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 29 September 2021, 00:13:59 »
I'm not sure I know of any 85% boards, nor am I really sure what that would look like. 80% is a TKL, although it's also known as an 87%. Either way it sounds like you want a 75%. But if you want it now, get an Obliterated75. I have an ID80 I use as a test bench for my switches prior to soldering them into another board and to let people test switches out in practical usage when they want me to build a board for them and want to test switches more extensively than using a little switch tester. But I also modded it with butyl to get rid of a lot of the awful sound it is notorious for (though there's no way to eliminate it all), and based on how harsh it feels to type on with the integrated plate I would not recommend it as a daily driver. It's absolutely harsher than a magic keyboard. An Obliterated75 is what I would use as a starting point if you want it right away. If you want the Fuji75 you will be waiting for a while. They said the GB will start in January, but based on the Fuji65 being delayed by like 6-8 months from the original GB date if I recall correctly, and the Returned Wing being canceled after like a year of people waiting and watching the GB date being pushed back over an over again, I wouldn't count on the Fuji75 coming for a while. I also got in on the Fuji65 and originally it was supposed to be in my hands already and now won't even be to the vendors until at least December (which I totally understand and go into GBs expecting the time lines to be pushed back by months), so I think you might want to cross that one off if you want one before 2023. Lol. You could get the KL-90 still, but not the original GB. Barrett Creative has a GB for various wooden cases for it and the PCB and plate can still be bought on Kiko's Lab. For a backlit one, if you MUST have backlighting you'll have to go with soldering in your own LEDs for an Obliterated75, or choose between the GMMK Pro, Q1, KBD75, or Tofu84. Out of the latter 4, I would reluctantly say the Q1 or the GMMK Pro. But I'm not sure people REALLY need backlit desktop keyboards as much as they need to practice knowing where your keys are. If it is so dark in a room that you can't see the legends even with only screen light then you should be more concerned with your eye health. Backlighting is kind of a novelty thing, not so much a usability thing. I have an Ob75 and my only complaint is the port for the USB-C cable being machined for clearance for a 747. Other than that it felt and sounded great even before I modded it with butyl.

That's my 2 cents...plus another $200. Lol. 

Offline aerOcraft

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Re: Best way to spend $500?
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 29 September 2021, 00:19:36 »
Oh, derp. TKC still has some PC Godspeed75s you can snag for $460. Or wait until the Thera75 is delivered and maybe you will get lucky and find someone selling it for under 200% of the original cost. Lol.

Offline aerOcraft

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Re: Best way to spend $500?
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 29 September 2021, 00:44:16 »
Also, seeing as you followed up the whole silent switch thing with the U4s and (I'm assuming silent) T1s, I am going to guess you mean you specifically want silent tactile switches. If that's the case I would say get the U4s if you want a long pole and the Silent T1s if you want normal travel. I am building a frankenswitch with Gazzew's Silent Tactile "P" stems, T1 bottom housing, Gat Ink V2 top housing, and Cannonkeys/Tecsee 63.5g two stage springs. His Silent Tactile "P" stems have the sharpest tactile event out of any silent tactile stem I know of, and T1 leaves are one of the most aggressive tactile leaves. If you really have a hole burning in your wallet then frankenswitch the feeling and thud sound you want (silent switches don't thock, they thud, and I will die on this hill). Lol. Otherwise I am sticking with the advice I gave first. If you want silent linear you can get Bobagums or Silent Alpacas. I can't ever justify spending $100+ for some ZealPC switches ever ever ever, and you won't catch me suggesting them even though their silent switches have their own (rich ass) following.

Offline Harue

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Re: Best way to spend $500?
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 29 September 2021, 03:59:35 »
The best way to spend $500 would be probably investing or saving instead of buying expensive rectangle :p
This, even though I need to say the same to myself.


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Offline iwobobul

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Re: Best way to spend $500 on a custom board for mac?
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 05 October 2021, 07:22:47 »
I have edited the OG post to reflect my current status – I do not think the board I want exists so I want to attempt to build it myself. Currently I build relatively more complicated products (lenses), but they have no electronics inside them, which makes this project tough for me.

How would you approach it? Start with switch selection? Mx/Alps/Topre? Then make a plate to install switches and hand-wire them, then make a chassis?

Thank you all for your opinions.

Offline _rubik

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Re: Best way to spend $500 on a custom board for mac?
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 05 October 2021, 14:31:00 »
I have edited the OG post to reflect my current status – I do not think the board I want exists so I want to attempt to build it myself. Currently I build relatively more complicated products (lenses), but they have no electronics inside them, which makes this project tough for me.

How would you approach it? Start with switch selection? Mx/Alps/Topre? Then make a plate to install switches and hand-wire them, then make a chassis?

Thank you all for your opinions.

Assume that you're going to use Mx switches. Alps is OK (less great for handwiring) but will have limited keycap support. Topre is off the table entirely, that's an electro-capacitive "switch" that has to be licensed and baked into the PCB.

If you're comfortable handwiring, that's certainly an option. You could also use an opensource PCB and adapt from there.

If anything, I'd start by prototyping the plate, test fitting some switches, and getting feedback here. This does seem like a lot of work to shift the bottom row by ~0.5u though
« Last Edit: Tue, 05 October 2021, 14:32:57 by _rubik »
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Offline aerOcraft

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Re: Best way to spend $500 on a custom board for mac?
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 05 October 2021, 14:39:57 »
I do not think the board I want exists so I want to attempt to build it myself.

Wait, so you plan to machine your own case?

If you are doing this from scratch you'll need to start with a PCB that has the option for the layout you want. Most people who design their own boards do this through manufacturers and designers who specialize in PCB design. Maybe reach out to some people in the IC forum who is running or has run a group buy for a keyboard similar to the layout you want to create and message them with your questions.

Offline Engedi_

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Re: Best way to spend $500 on a custom board for mac?
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 12 October 2021, 09:35:51 »
Your desired layout is very specific. There's definitely no pcb designed for this.
If you don't mind waiting, you could join a bubble75 gb that's going on right now.
You can remap the key above the right arrow as F13 and the Shift key as ? /.
I doubt the extra row above the right arrow keys will kill the compactness.
Just curious. What is the F13 used for? Never heard of anyone that need an F13 key lol.
« Last Edit: Tue, 12 October 2021, 09:39:41 by Engedi_ »

Offline epod

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Re: Best way to spend $500 on a custom board for mac?
« Reply #23 on: Wed, 13 October 2021, 09:50:13 »
Keychron Q1 or GMMK Pro might be good if you want hotswap (without needing to find/get additional PCB somewhere or solder in millmax sockets). I'd recommend hotswap for anyone for their first year with mech keyboards so can play around with different switches. Those boards, esp. the Q1, has many defining features of higher-end boards (such as Obliterated75 mentioned already) like gasket mounting for the plate (sounds like something you want - improves typing feel and helps make it more quiet), ability to use different plates, etc. (I haven't tested it nor O75 personally, but have used other ready-to-hotswap products + a Savage65). I'm a big fan of the ID80 which is a hotswap 75% board (and VIA-compatible, after a firmware flash) (it's an integrated plate board ... but I made it work/sound quite well with modding, padding, etc.) but the Q1/similar new boards may have superseded ID80's features. ID80v2 (maybe just the PC version? unsure) also introduce gaskets I think.

+1 on Mac vs Windows keyboard hoax. Can remap "windows keyboard" bottom modifier keys (ctrl/cmd/opt/alt/win-key) to anything in either MacOS system preferences, or in VIA probably. I usually leave ctrl/sys/alt keys as-is in QMK/VIA (so can use with Windows/Linux in a pinch if needed) and use MacOS sys preferences to make the alt into a cmd and ctrl into a ctrl -- not sure if any con to this.

With QMK/VIA you should be able to make whatever key into whatever key, so shortcuts/button-availability is mostly limited by your creativity and preferences. I think most 75% boards do have an ~F13 button (and maybe some more) next to the F-row, but if not (or if shows up as like "Insert" button on VIA) then can always program them in with VIA. (As long as pick a board that supports QMK/VIA, else are SOL).

Offline _rubik

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Re: Best way to spend $500 on a custom board for mac?
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 13 October 2021, 13:35:30 »
If you don't mind waiting, you could join a bubble75 gb that's going on right now.

OP has explicitly said they're looking for a layout where Alt and X are aligned. I doubt the extra 1/3u will make any difference, but that's a condition which the bubble doesn't satisfy.
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