Unpopular Keyboard Opinions

[xtrafrood]

I like white keycaps.

[_rubik]

Things that I don't like

• HHKB layout
• Split right shift
• Tactile switches
• Box clickies
• TKLs (aesthetically pleasing but too big)

Things that I don't think that are that bad

• MX blues
• Gatistotles
• Gateron  clears

Maybe you should start with what you do like

[ramencup]

But I'll disagree about Topre. I'm sure it feels nice, but I really can't justify paying 250+ bucks for a better built rubber dome. Or at least I'd expect the OOBE to be near perfect, ie. I wouldn't have to pay extra 60 bucks for different domes, some more for a PBT spacebar and even some more for silencing rings.

Actually, that raises a question. Would a NIZ Plum decked out with BKE Redux domes and lube be close enough to a Topre board decked out similarly? I have too much sense to fall for the Topre meme just yet but I've heard great things about BKE Redux.

Typing on some BKE Redux heavies now. 7/8 would recommend if you like a stiff, tactile board. I love mine, but maybe that's an unpopular opinion.

Cool beans. Would the BKE dome swap be viable with a Plum board though? I've seen plenty of people discuss it as a viable Topre alternative but I've never actually seen it done before.

Since I haven't left an opinion yet, I actually didn't think it was that hard to switch to a split ergo layout for the first time. I only took around a 30WPM hit when my ErgoDox came in.

[duckboi]

But I'll disagree about Topre. I'm sure it feels nice, but I really can't justify paying 250+ bucks for a better built rubber dome. Or at least I'd expect the OOBE to be near perfect, ie. I wouldn't have to pay extra 60 bucks for different domes, some more for a PBT spacebar and even some more for silencing rings.

Actually, that raises a question. Would a NIZ Plum decked out with BKE Redux domes and lube be close enough to a Topre board decked out similarly? I have too much sense to fall for the Topre meme just yet but I've heard great things about BKE Redux.

Typing on some BKE Redux heavies now. 7/8 would recommend if you like a stiff, tactile board. I love mine, but maybe that's an unpopular opinion.

Cool beans. Would the BKE dome swap be viable with a Plum board though? I've seen plenty of people discuss it as a viable Topre alternative but I've never actually seen it done before.

Since I haven't left an opinion yet, I actually didn't think it was that hard to switch to a split ergo layout for the first time. I only took around a 30WPM hit when my ErgoDox came in.

Yeah it should work on plum boards.

I HATED BKE redux though so I wouldn't recommend it at all but that's just me.

[BobCarltheThird]

But I'll disagree about Topre. I'm sure it feels nice, but I really can't justify paying 250+ bucks for a better built rubber dome. Or at least I'd expect the OOBE to be near perfect, ie. I wouldn't have to pay extra 60 bucks for different domes, some more for a PBT spacebar and even some more for silencing rings.

Actually, that raises a question. Would a NIZ Plum decked out with BKE Redux domes and lube be close enough to a Topre board decked out similarly? I have too much sense to fall for the Topre meme just yet but I've heard great things about BKE Redux.

Typing on some BKE Redux heavies now. 7/8 would recommend if you like a stiff, tactile board. I love mine, but maybe that's an unpopular opinion.

Cool beans. Would the BKE dome swap be viable with a Plum board though? I've seen plenty of people discuss it as a viable Topre alternative but I've never actually seen it done before.

Since I haven't left an opinion yet, I actually didn't think it was that hard to switch to a split ergo layout for the first time. I only took around a 30WPM hit when my ErgoDox came in.

The only problem with Plum modding is that it can be a pain to seat the domes correctly requiring you to take the board apart a couple of times to get it right.

[jamster]

lmao, is this an unpopular opinion thread or a hate thread? Most people seem to be using this as a hate ventilator.
State "I don't like such and such", don't add your bs hate into it. Otherwise, people might actually use their Mech boards as a melee weapon...haha just kidding...maybe...

In that case the grouchy old Model M owners will totally beat the crap out of all the hipsters with their teensy sub-TKL boards.

[_rubik]

lmao, is this an unpopular opinion thread or a hate thread? Most people seem to be using this as a hate ventilator.
State "I don't like such and such", don't add your bs hate into it. Otherwise, people might actually use their Mech boards as a melee weapon...haha just kidding...maybe...

In that case the grouchy old Model M owners will totally beat the crap out of all the hipsters with their teensy sub-TKL boards.

Holy necropost batman. We digging up posts from page 6 now?

[jamster]

lmao, is this an unpopular opinion thread or a hate thread? Most people seem to be using this as a hate ventilator.
State "I don't like such and such", don't add your bs hate into it. Otherwise, people might actually use their Mech boards as a melee weapon...haha just kidding...maybe...

In that case the grouchy old Model M owners will totally beat the crap out of all the hipsters with their teensy sub-TKL boards.

Holy necropost batman. We digging up posts from page 6 now?

Woah. I must've gotten lost in the thread pages big time. I thought it was from only a couple pages back.

[BigBlackThock]

Electromechanical engineer here with diverse experience miniaturization of complex electromechanical assemblies...

I literally created an account just to say this.

Scissor Switches are by far the best switch design

The only reason why this isn't apparent is because a vast majority of scissor switches are developed to be as compact as possible. The fact that the community is not pursuing a 4mm performance scissor switch is a travesty.

I assure you, if one were designed and manufactured with your needs in mind, a majority of you would prefer them for their inherent stability, smoothness, and crisp operation.

[abrahamstechnology]

Electromechanical engineer here with diverse experience miniaturization of complex electromechanical assemblies...

I literally created an account just to say this.

Scissor Switches are by far the best switch design

The only reason why this isn't apparent is because a vast majority of scissor switches are developed to be as compact as possible. The fact that the community is not pursuing a 4mm performance scissor switch is a travesty.

I assure you, if one were designed and manufactured with your needs in mind, a majority of you would prefer them for their inherent stability, smoothness, and crisp operation.

I don't get why anyone would like one of the worst and cheapest keyboard designs. Key stability doesn't really matter when you are repeatedly bashing little flimsy chiclet keys into a hard surface.

Although you may find out you would like Kailh's low-profile "chocolate bar" switches much better than a rubber dome scissor. Jade would probably be your favorite due to lighter weight and sharp tactility.

[The_Boom_Boy]

Things that I don't like

• HHKB layout
• Split right shift
• Tactile switches
• Box clickies
• TKLs (aesthetically pleasing but too big)

Things that I don't think that are that bad

• MX blues
• Gatistotles
• Gateron  clears

Maybe you should start with what you do like

Why?

[BigBlackThock]

Electromechanical engineer here with diverse experience miniaturization of complex electromechanical assemblies...

I literally created an account just to say this.

Scissor Switches are by far the best switch design

The only reason why this isn't apparent is because a vast majority of scissor switches are developed to be as compact as possible. The fact that the community is not pursuing a 4mm performance scissor switch is a travesty.

I assure you, if one were designed and manufactured with your needs in mind, a majority of you would prefer them for their inherent stability, smoothness, and crisp operation.

I don't get why anyone would like one of the worst and cheapest keyboard designs. Key stability doesn't really matter when you are repeatedly bashing little flimsy chiclet keys into a hard surface.

Although you may find out you would like Kailh's low-profile "chocolate bar" switches much better than a rubber dome scissor. Jade would probably be your favorite due to lighter weight and sharp tactility.

I have choc switches. They are a decent low-profile switch, but kaihua scissors are superior, which is why kaihua developed them in the first place.

Scissor switches are actually quite a bit more expensive to develop and produce. The only reason why you don't have a lot of high quality examples of scissor switches is that the design didn't gain traction until after keyboards were commoditized. I can assure you that a full travel scissor switch designed and produced with the same performance goals as high end slider switches would outperform them. The design simply has fewer drawbacks.

[abrahamstechnology]

Electromechanical engineer here with diverse experience miniaturization of complex electromechanical assemblies...

I literally created an account just to say this.

Scissor Switches are by far the best switch design

The only reason why this isn't apparent is because a vast majority of scissor switches are developed to be as compact as possible. The fact that the community is not pursuing a 4mm performance scissor switch is a travesty.

I assure you, if one were designed and manufactured with your needs in mind, a majority of you would prefer them for their inherent stability, smoothness, and crisp operation.

I don't get why anyone would like one of the worst and cheapest keyboard designs. Key stability doesn't really matter when you are repeatedly bashing little flimsy chiclet keys into a hard surface.

Although you may find out you would like Kailh's low-profile "chocolate bar" switches much better than a rubber dome scissor. Jade would probably be your favorite due to lighter weight and sharp tactility.

I have choc switches. They are a decent low-profile switch, but kaihua scissors are superior, which is why kaihua developed them in the first place.

Scissor switches are actually quite a bit more expensive to develop and produce. The only reason why you don't have a lot of high quality examples of scissor switches is that the design didn't gain traction until after keyboards were commoditized. I can assure you that a full travel scissor switch designed and produced with the same performance goals as high end slider switches would outperform them. The design simply has fewer drawbacks.

Yes, a mechanized scissor switch like Kaihua's makes sense. However I have no love for the rubber-dome scissor boards that the Apple-copying zombified computer industry is throwing on everything nowadays, even desktop keyboards. Walking into a Worst Buy nowadays makes me boiling mad.

[xtrafrood]

Electromechanical engineer here with diverse experience miniaturization of complex electromechanical assemblies...

I literally created an account just to say this.

Scissor Switches are by far the best switch design

The only reason why this isn't apparent is because a vast majority of scissor switches are developed to be as compact as possible. The fact that the community is not pursuing a 4mm performance scissor switch is a travesty.

I assure you, if one were designed and manufactured with your needs in mind, a majority of you would prefer them for their inherent stability, smoothness, and crisp operation.

Is there such a thing as a capacitive sensing scissor switch? That would be interesting.

[abrahamstechnology]

Electromechanical engineer here with diverse experience miniaturization of complex electromechanical assemblies...

I literally created an account just to say this.

Scissor Switches are by far the best switch design

The only reason why this isn't apparent is because a vast majority of scissor switches are developed to be as compact as possible. The fact that the community is not pursuing a 4mm performance scissor switch is a travesty.

I assure you, if one were designed and manufactured with your needs in mind, a majority of you would prefer them for their inherent stability, smoothness, and crisp operation.

Is there such a thing as a capacitive sensing scissor switch? That would be interesting.

You'd somehow need to integrate a return spring into the design, though.

[Findecanor]

The only reason why this isn't apparent is because a vast majority of scissor switches are developed to be as compact as possible. The fact that the community is not pursuing a 4mm performance scissor switch is a travesty.

Scissors with up to 3.2 mm travel exist. Really nice, yes. (Logitech PerfectStroke)
But there are several of variables here, and a long way from idea to practice. Sliders are often stable enough, well-known and robust.
Scissor legs tend to break easily, even on the somewhat thicker legs on the 3.2 mm switch.

The community here does not build switches on its own, at least not entirely new switches.
Many ideas have been proposed, but the barriers for a hobbyist to start manufacturing something like that with high-precision are simply too high.
Some ideas for slider variants have been picked up by mainstream manufacturers and sold as custom. Some springs have been replaced. Some lubrication. That's it. That's what Zeal PC, Input.Club, Massdrop and Kbdfans have done.

Maybe switches with a combination of slider and a single stabiliser (scissors are two stabilisers) would be the future. Some low-profile Kailh switches have them, as well as Bloody LK Libra (full size). Longer keys on Topre also have the stabiliser inside the switch, stabilising the single slider making swapping keys much easier.

I find it somewhat unfortunate, however, that Cherry MX mount has become so prolific. Nowadays, if a switch is to become popular it would need to be Cherry MX keycap-compatible.

Is there such a thing as a capacitive sensing scissor switch? That would be interesting.

The minimal TextBlade was ... but not really. It used one physical scissor-key for three (or six) keys. In the bottom of each key assembly, there were three (or six) capacitive sensors that sensed the proximity of the user's finger-tip as it pressed down in one of three (or six) positions on the key surface.
The company was a disaster. I don't think they shipped any products. (Read the end of the thread)

[xtrafrood]

The only reason why this isn't apparent is because a vast majority of scissor switches are developed to be as compact as possible. The fact that the community is not pursuing a 4mm performance scissor switch is a travesty.

Scissors with up to 3.2 mm travel exist. Really nice, yes. (Logitech PerfectStroke)
But there are several of variables here, and a long way from idea to practice. Sliders are often stable enough, well-known and robust.
Scissor legs tend to break easily, even on the somewhat thicker legs on the 3.2 mm switch.

The community here does not build switches on its own, at least not entirely new switches.
Many ideas have been proposed, but the barriers for a hobbyist to start manufacturing something like that with high-precision are simply too high.
Some ideas for slider variants have been picked up by mainstream manufacturers and sold as custom. Some springs have been replaced. Some lubrication. That's it. That's what Zeal PC, Input.Club, Massdrop and Kbdfans have done.

Maybe switches with a combination of slider and a single stabiliser (scissors are two stabilisers) would be the future. Some low-profile Kailh switches have them, as well as Bloody LK Libra (full size). Longer keys on Topre also have the stabiliser inside the switch, stabilising the single slider making swapping keys much easier.

I find it somewhat unfortunate, however, that Cherry MX mount has become so prolific. Nowadays, if a switch is to become popular it would need to be Cherry MX keycap-compatible.

Is there such a thing as a capacitive sensing scissor switch? That would be interesting.

The minimal TextBlade was ... but not really. It used one physical scissor-key for three (or six) keys. In the bottom of each key assembly, there were three (or six) capacitive sensors that sensed the proximity of the user's finger-tip as it pressed down in one of three (or six) positions on the key surface.
The company was a disaster. I don't think they shipped any products. (Read the end of the thread)

Oh wow, I had completely forgotten about the TextBlade. Was a neat concept anyway.

[abrahamstechnology]

The best of all worlds would be a Hall Effect Space Invader... If only they existed.

[BigBlackThock]

The best of all worlds would be a Hall Effect Space Invader... If only they existed.

Care to elaborate?

[BigBlackThock]

A couple of big ones:

Wrist rests are only useful if you are typing wrong.

Flipped space bars fall into the same category.

Carpal tunnel syndrome did not exist when people were taught how to type correctly. Your forearms should be high enough over your desk so that if you simply let your hands drop (like a zombie), they naturally fall into the keys. This is by far the most ergonomic, accurate, and fastest way to type. All keyboard sculpts (Cherry, IBM, Microswitch, OEM, DSS) were designed to suit this typing style. So if you are doing it any other way, it's not going to work correctly, mkay?

[abrahamstechnology]

The best of all worlds would be a Hall Effect Space Invader... If only they existed.

Care to elaborate?

Extreme key stability, full travel, and reliability.

[frydaja]

Metal is unneccessary as a keyboard material. Too expensive, makes the keyboard too heavy and it doesn't even feel/sound nice.

Big bezels are unneccesary. If you build a 60% keyboard and put it in a 20cm thick case, aren't you ruining the purpose of such a keyboard?

Every keyboard should have a spring in a spacebar.

I don't like the sound of blue Alps.

[brainandforce]

White Alps are better than Blue Alps.

The best Model M you can get is a brand new Unicomp Ultra Classic.

[Findecanor]

Carpal tunnel syndrome did not exist when people were taught how to type correctly.

That's not an opinion. That's simply ignorant.

[tp4tissue]

Carpal tunnel syndrome did not exist when people were taught how to type correctly.

That's not an opinion. That's simply ignorant.

Hahahahhahahahaha... 

i mean, yea it's more common in the mouse hand than left typing hand,  buhhh.. def could happen..

[_rubik]

White Alps are better than Blue Alps.

The best Model M you can get is a brand new Unicomp Ultra Classic.

I don't know what bothers me more: that I agree with the second statement or that Unicomp doesn't make an SSK alternative.

[BigBlackThock]

This community spends an insane amount of resources on custom keyboards and caps that do nothing to actually innovate or move mechanical keyboards forward.

Kaihua Box switch keycap mounts are the biggest f*ck up in modern keyboard history.

Lack of aftermarket topre switch suppliers and qualified PCB designers are the single biggest issue facing the community at large.

The release of DSS profile caps will likely kill SA profile.

[Kavik]

The best Model M you can get is a brand new Unicomp Ultra Classic.

I don't know what bothers me more: that I agree with the second statement or that Unicomp doesn't make an SSK alternative.

The only way I can reconcile that thought in my brain is to assume you haven't tried a good vintage M (since individual specimens vary). Granted, I've only used one Unicomp, but it was such an atrocity that I sent it back for a refund. Model Ms from the '80s are much sturdier and the switch feel is great (as opposed to the Unicomp that felt like scraping a knife against a chalkboard). I do have a spare Unicomp barrel frame that didn't feel as bad when I put caps on it, but still not nearly as good as a vintage one, so maybe my Unicomp was just a lemon.

[BigBlackThock]

The best Model M you can get is a brand new Unicomp Ultra Classic.

I don't know what bothers me more: that I agree with the second statement or that Unicomp doesn't make an SSK alternative.

The only way I can reconcile that thought in my brain is to assume you haven't tried a good vintage M (since individual specimens vary). Granted, I've only used one Unicomp, but it was such an atrocity that I sent it back for a refund. Model Ms from the '80s are much sturdier and the switch feel is great (as opposed to the Unicomp that felt like scraping a knife against a chalkboard). I do have a spare Unicomp barrel frame that didn't feel as bad when I put caps on it, but still not nearly as good as a vintage one, so maybe my Unicomp was just a lemon.

I have always been mystified by unicomps. They have the sole right to produce the most iconic keyboard of all time. They even have original tooling. How do you screw that up?

[no, the other guy]

Tooling needs maintenance, maintenance needs people, people need a salary. Just a thought about why.

[xtrafrood]

Tooling needs maintenance, maintenance needs people, people need a salary. Just a thought about why.

^

[fohat.digs]

How do you screw that up?

They didn't. Unicomp is a good company, but they have let quality control erode.

Haters are constantly complaining, but Unicomp is still putting out a solid, durable product.

[abrahamstechnology]

All-metal cases sound dull and dead. Plastic echoes sound much better.

[SneakyRobb]

All-metal cases sound dull and dead. Plastic echoes sound much better.

I agree. I think this is why so many large brass instruments are made of plastic.

[abrahamstechnology]

All-metal cases sound dull and dead. Plastic echoes sound much better.

I agree. I think this is why so many large brass instruments are made of plastic.

Sarcasm? Anyways, it's not like instruments are a solid block of metal. Clickbar switches sound so bland in one of those tiny overpriced solid metal cases. I did some experiments in an all plastic fullsize chassis and the sount they make in there is just so much more vibrant.

[xtrafrood]

All-metal cases sound dull and dead. Plastic echoes sound much better.

I agree. I think this is why so many large brass instruments are made of plastic.

Sarcasm?

Thought I'd point out that the manufacture's implementation of mass distribution will change the sound quite a bit.

[BigBlackThock]

How do you screw that up?

They didn't. Unicomp is a good company, but they have let quality control erode.

Haters are constantly complaining, but Unicomp is still putting out a solid, durable product.

If that were true, we would not be having this conversation.

They changed the product. Those changes made the product less solid and durable. They bought the rights to a winning formula and then changed the formula to make it not winning.

If that's not screwing up, I don't know what is.

[xtrafrood]

If Unicomp could refresh their tooling I'm sure they would.

[SneakyRobb]

How do you screw that up?

They didn't. Unicomp is a good company, but they have let quality control erode.

Haters are constantly complaining, but Unicomp is still putting out a solid, durable product.

If that were true, we would not be having this conversation.

They changed the product. Those changes made the product less solid and durable. They bought the rights to a winning formula and then changed the formula to make it not winning.

If that's not screwing up, I don't know what is.

This might be true to some degree but it is not as if Model Ms were at a consistent quality and then all of a sudden Unicomp caused them to be less good. There isn't some moment when Unicomp enters that they just decided to make them suck. Remember lexmark was there.   Also remember that the model m is basically just a cheapened version of the model f to begin with. Unicomp is just the last bit of a very long downward trend of quality.

[no, the other guy]

If Unicomp could refresh their tooling I'm sure they would.

Has anyone asked them how much money they'd need? Maybe we could collect.

[xtrafrood]

If Unicomp could refresh their tooling I'm sure they would.

Has anyone asked them how much money they'd need? Maybe we could collect.

iirc, the tooling needs to be replaced. So however many tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands (?) of USD that would take. A Unicomp SSK kickstarter would be neat.

[abrahamstechnology]

If Unicomp could refresh their tooling I'm sure they would.

Has anyone asked them how much money they'd need? Maybe we could collect.

iirc, the tooling needs to be replaced. So however many tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands (?) of USD that would take. A Unicomp SSK kickstarter would be neat.

I'm in.

[no, the other guy]

Count me in as well.

[barrel]

Leopold make the best keyboards of any brand in the MX Market.

[BigBlackThock]

If Unicomp could refresh their tooling I'm sure they would.

Has anyone asked them how much money they'd need? Maybe we could collect.

iirc, the tooling needs to be replaced. So however many tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands (?) of USD that would take. A Unicomp SSK kickstarter would be neat.

Tens of thousands, perhaps, certainly not hundreds.

[no, the other guy]

Sounds like GH/DT could make it in a day.

[xtrafrood]

If Unicomp could refresh their tooling I'm sure they would.

Has anyone asked them how much money they'd need? Maybe we could collect.

iirc, the tooling needs to be replaced. So however many tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands (?) of USD that would take. A Unicomp SSK kickstarter would be neat.

Tens of thousands, perhaps, certainly not hundreds.

Curious. You ask how Unicomp can screw up their product that they make with the 'original tooling', and yet you obviously understand the underlying reason as to why the quality has regressed.

[jamster]

Electromechanical engineer here with diverse experience miniaturization of complex electromechanical assemblies...

I literally created an account just to say this.

Scissor Switches are by far the best switch design

The only reason why this isn't apparent is because a vast majority of scissor switches are developed to be as compact as possible. The fact that the community is not pursuing a 4mm performance scissor switch is a travesty.

I assure you, if one were designed and manufactured with your needs in mind, a majority of you would prefer them for their inherent stability, smoothness, and crisp operation.

I believe the old Thinkpads had scissor switches- they were the far and away best laptop keyboards I'd ever used. Short travel as they were laptops, but much better than the new Apple travesties.

The main downside were that they keycaps were fixed into the top of the scissoring mechanism.

[BigBlackThock]

If Unicomp could refresh their tooling I'm sure they would.

Has anyone asked them how much money they'd need? Maybe we could collect.

iirc, the tooling needs to be replaced. So however many tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands (?) of USD that would take. A Unicomp SSK kickstarter would be neat.

Tens of thousands, perhaps, certainly not hundreds.

Curious. You ask how Unicomp can screw up their product that they make with the 'original tooling', and yet you obviously understand the underlying reason as to why the quality has regressed.

Well, I think that assertion assumes that I believe that old worn-out tooling is the primary issue. I do not believe that. I believe they either lack the know-how or the motivation to make the most of what they have. It's probably a bit of both.

[xtrafrood]

If Unicomp could refresh their tooling I'm sure they would.

Has anyone asked them how much money they'd need? Maybe we could collect.

iirc, the tooling needs to be replaced. So however many tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands (?) of USD that would take. A Unicomp SSK kickstarter would be neat.

Tens of thousands, perhaps, certainly not hundreds.

Curious. You ask how Unicomp can screw up their product that they make with the 'original tooling', and yet you obviously understand the underlying reason as to why the quality has regressed.

Well, I think that assertion assumes that I believe that old worn-out tooling is the primary issue. I do not believe that. I believe they either lack the know-how or the motivation to make the most of what they have. It's probably a bit of both.

Fair enough.