Author Topic: IBM model m not all keys working  (Read 1585 times)

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Offline past_15

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IBM model m not all keys working
« on: Wed, 13 April 2022, 11:03:32 »
Hello. Sorry for Ukrainian English, but I'm will try to describe my problem. Recently I've started to be the owner of IBM model m. For the first, I bought a USB/ps2 adapter and it worked fine. When I found a tool to disassemble the keyboard I cleaned that (so many parts of cockroaches I had never seen). After that, I put the controller in place, the led lighted, and when I tried to write something have worked only enter. Then I pressed the controller to a membrane and the keyboard started to work but not all keys. When I unpressed the controller, the only enter worked again. I didn't do a bolt mod. What I should do to know what the problem is?  Is it may be a problem with the controller, or with a membrane? A screenshot with working keys when the controller is pressed to the membrane is attached (but it's not include numpad. on numpad works * enter 4 6). Thanks for your help. Peace!
« Last Edit: Wed, 13 April 2022, 12:54:43 by past_15 »

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 2164
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: IBM model m not all keys working
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 14 April 2022, 08:56:30 »
Hello. Sorry for Ukrainian English, but I'm will try to describe my problem. Recently I've started to be the owner of IBM model m. For the first, I bought a USB/ps2 adapter and it worked fine. When I found a tool to disassemble the keyboard I cleaned that (so many parts of cockroaches I had never seen). After that, I put the controller in place, the led lighted, and when I tried to write something have worked only enter. Then I pressed the controller to a membrane and the keyboard started to work but not all keys. When I unpressed the controller, the only enter worked again. I didn't do a bolt mod. What I should do to know what the problem is?  Is it may be a problem with the controller, or with a membrane? A screenshot with working keys when the controller is pressed to the membrane is attached (but it's not include numpad. on numpad works * enter 4 6). Thanks for your help. Peace!

I was hoping somebody who tinkers with Ms more would have chimed in but there's a lot of commonality between M and F.

Do all of the keys feel and sound right? If you have any broken plastic rivets, they're not all going to feel and sound exactly the same, but if anything is out of whack the spring is going to sound really muted or have a bit of a buzz sound to it and you might have extremely light tactility by comparison to other nearby keys. Any outliers that look like they aren't related to a whole column being dead like on the left side there might just need their caps and/or springs reseated. I have needed to do this even without disassembly sometimes just transporting Model M or F boards around by car. It is one of buckling spring's weaknesses. Opinions differ on the process. I remove the caps for individual problem keys and tip the keyboard so that the cable/SDL connector side faces down and the keys face the horizon and look at the springs. They should be relatively centered with a bit of a droop within the barrel (not so much as to touch the barrel). You can compare to nearby springs on keys that already feel and sound about right. If nothing looks misaligned, you might just need to try reseating the cap until all is resolved with that key. This also seems to be best in the previously-mentioned orientation (SDL connector/cable facing down, keys facing the horizon). If any of the springs don't look quite right, I have had some luck carefully sticking some really fine needle nose pliers or tweezers down the barrel to pinch the spring near where it attaches to the flipper to scrunch it onto there with better alignment. A tube with an inner diameter about the same as the spring (like a straw) and some chopsticks or skewers are probably less troublesome and fiddly. The process there would be to slide the tube or straw around the spring and gently compress the spring with the chopsticks a few times to try to center everything again. Sometimes pulling the springs off and trying to reseat them entirely is necessary, and if you permanently kinked any of the springs while the board was apart, they may need replacement. I would probably only attempt this if you do have a setup similar to the chopstick method. I have been able to do it with pliers, but you'll be swearing quickly without a lot of patience, and most pliers really aren't narrow enough for that kind of work.

If you do have a lot of rivets missing near where keys aren't working, there's also the possibility that the flippers aren't seated properly anymore and you might have to drill out all of the rivets and do a bolt mod, unless somebody has a trick to somehow magically realign everything without a teardown. I have gotten lucky with Fs without plate disassembly by just mashing the keys like they owe you money, but that's hit or miss, and the design is a little different.

If it doesn't look like broken rivets could be related, and you know all of the caps and springs are seated right, does your membrane have any perceptible damage? Where, specifically, are you pressing to get it to work? Is it folded like a piece of paper anywhere it shouldn't be? The traces could be broken if it is. Do the contacts where the membrane meets the controller look undamaged and not oxidized? If they do look oxidized, you could try lightly cleaning them with some rubbing alcohol, maybe 70%.

I hope that's at least a good starting point. Problems like this are why I'm glad I vastly prefer Models F anyway.

Random question: Are you tinkering with a Model M in the middle of a war zone, or do you live abroad? Slava Ukraini, and screw Putler.
« Last Edit: Thu, 14 April 2022, 09:03:06 by Maledicted »

Offline past_15

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Re: IBM model m not all keys working
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 17 April 2022, 08:57:37 »
Hello. Sorry for Ukrainian English, but I'm will try to describe my problem. Recently I've started to be the owner of IBM model m. For the first, I bought a USB/ps2 adapter and it worked fine. When I found a tool to disassemble the keyboard I cleaned that (so many parts of cockroaches I had never seen). After that, I put the controller in place, the led lighted, and when I tried to write something have worked only enter. Then I pressed the controller to a membrane and the keyboard started to work but not all keys. When I unpressed the controller, the only enter worked again. I didn't do a bolt mod. What I should do to know what the problem is?  Is it may be a problem with the controller, or with a membrane? A screenshot with working keys when the controller is pressed to the membrane is attached (but it's not include numpad. on numpad works * enter 4 6). Thanks for your help. Peace!

I was hoping somebody who tinkers with Ms more would have chimed in but there's a lot of commonality between M and F.

Do all of the keys feel and sound right? If you have any broken plastic rivets, they're not all going to feel and sound exactly the same, but if anything is out of whack the spring is going to sound really muted or have a bit of a buzz sound to it and you might have extremely light tactility by comparison to other nearby keys. Any outliers that look like they aren't related to a whole column being dead like on the left side there might just need their caps and/or springs reseated. I have needed to do this even without disassembly sometimes just transporting Model M or F boards around by car. It is one of buckling spring's weaknesses. Opinions differ on the process. I remove the caps for individual problem keys and tip the keyboard so that the cable/SDL connector side faces down and the keys face the horizon and look at the springs. They should be relatively centered with a bit of a droop within the barrel (not so much as to touch the barrel). You can compare to nearby springs on keys that already feel and sound about right. If nothing looks misaligned, you might just need to try reseating the cap until all is resolved with that key. This also seems to be best in the previously-mentioned orientation (SDL connector/cable facing down, keys facing the horizon). If any of the springs don't look quite right, I have had some luck carefully sticking some really fine needle nose pliers or tweezers down the barrel to pinch the spring near where it attaches to the flipper to scrunch it onto there with better alignment. A tube with an inner diameter about the same as the spring (like a straw) and some chopsticks or skewers are probably less troublesome and fiddly. The process there would be to slide the tube or straw around the spring and gently compress the spring with the chopsticks a few times to try to center everything again. Sometimes pulling the springs off and trying to reseat them entirely is necessary, and if you permanently kinked any of the springs while the board was apart, they may need replacement. I would probably only attempt this if you do have a setup similar to the chopstick method. I have been able to do it with pliers, but you'll be swearing quickly without a lot of patience, and most pliers really aren't narrow enough for that kind of work.

If you do have a lot of rivets missing near where keys aren't working, there's also the possibility that the flippers aren't seated properly anymore and you might have to drill out all of the rivets and do a bolt mod, unless somebody has a trick to somehow magically realign everything without a teardown. I have gotten lucky with Fs without plate disassembly by just mashing the keys like they owe you money, but that's hit or miss, and the design is a little different.

If it doesn't look like broken rivets could be related, and you know all of the caps and springs are seated right, does your membrane have any perceptible damage? Where, specifically, are you pressing to get it to work? Is it folded like a piece of paper anywhere it shouldn't be? The traces could be broken if it is. Do the contacts where the membrane meets the controller look undamaged and not oxidized? If they do look oxidized, you could try lightly cleaning them with some rubbing alcohol, maybe 70%.

I hope that's at least a good starting point. Problems like this are why I'm glad I vastly prefer Models F anyway.

Random question: Are you tinkering with a Model M in the middle of a war zone, or do you live abroad? Slava Ukraini, and screw Putler.

Hello dear friend. Thanks a lot for your reply. Sound and click of all keys the same. All rivets are in the place and look good. When I did a photo today, I found that one of the plastic mounting places for the controller is broken, but I don't think the problem is that. I've attached some photos of the controller and membrane, and show what I mean when I press the controller (last attachment). The contacts of the controller and membrane look good, but I don't know what happens below the top of a "sandwich".

Answer for random question: I'm in Ukraine, cause anytime the army can call me to fight with occupants. The men from 18 to 60 can't go abroad during wartime. In my region often hear airborne threats (don't know how correct it calls), but my city was attacked by rockets a few times (thanks to systems of air defense). But in the east of the country and near Kyiv, the situation is worst, some cities are destroyed by 90%. Thanks for your support, Heroiam Slava!

Offline jacobalbertus1

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  • Location: SC/N myrtle beach
Re: IBM model m not all keys working
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 19 April 2022, 13:23:14 »
you may have sanpped some of the supports for that off but i would take a pencil to the traces on the membrane to make them a little more conductive HAS to be a GRAPHITE pencil for conductivity but iv done this to get many M's to work
Model f 122 USB industrial paint (daily), model f xt inbox almost nos Ellipse approved, NOS model m ssk , Model F 77 for class (special needs I was told I had to use a mech or a key beeper by the school) model m 1391401 silver label ( this was a factory messup where they stuck a 139101 sticker on it and sent it with a ps/2) model m 1390131 model m unicomp industrial case modded  and a model f at

Offline past_15

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Re: IBM model m not all keys working
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 20 April 2022, 01:12:03 »
you may have sanpped some of the supports for that off but i would take a pencil to the traces on the membrane to make them a little more conductive HAS to be a GRAPHITE pencil for conductivity but iv done this to get many M's to work

thanks, I will try

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 2164
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: IBM model m not all keys working
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 20 April 2022, 12:54:46 »
you may have sanpped some of the supports for that off but i would take a pencil to the traces on the membrane to make them a little more conductive HAS to be a GRAPHITE pencil for conductivity but iv done this to get many M's to work

thanks, I will try

Yeah, probably individual traces since we've (probably) eliminated everything else. Don't think grounding of the controller would be an issue, especially since it is just specific keys and columns.

The dead keys that are on their own are still a big concern because if everything having to do with the rivets is intact and you're 100% certain that everything is seated otherwise, you might have problems with the inaccessible portions of the membrane, where the rows and columns cross to register a press. With the whole columns, the fault is more likely to be at or near the controller, and thus much easier to find and resolve. For the individual keys, unless you could maybe get lucky trying to blow any gunk on the matrix clear of its respective barrel with some compressed air, you might have to pop all of the rivets to get at the membrane inside to repair or totally replace. You also wouldn't think this would be necessary if everything worked fine when you took it apart to clean it though either, unless cleaning it somehow shifted debris between the layers of membrane and/or damaged their traces ... somehow.

Does your city even have any military targets? I hope the sinking of Moskva turns things around internally within Russia against Putin and/or the war. That tyrant had been in power for way too long even before he stole Crimea.

Offline past_15

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Re: IBM model m not all keys working
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 23 April 2022, 11:27:42 »
hi friends. so, I tried a trick with a pencil but it didn't work (the more keys don't work now, haha). And it doesn't work anything also when I don't press a controller. So in my opinion, it can't without bolt mod. Thanks for your help, if I will have more time I will try to repair it. Happy easter!

Our city has some military bases, but russians rapists and murderers are bombing everything!

Offline Maledicted

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  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: IBM model m not all keys working
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 29 April 2022, 08:23:53 »
hi friends. so, I tried a trick with a pencil but it didn't work (the more keys don't work now, haha). And it doesn't work anything also when I don't press a controller. So in my opinion, it can't without bolt mod. Thanks for your help, if I will have more time I will try to repair it. Happy easter!

Our city has some military bases, but russians rapists and murderers are bombing everything!

Sorry to hear that. There's also a screw mod that some people find to be superior. Should be easy to find with a quick Google search. At least once it is done you can actually disassemble the freaking thing to inspect the membrane's traces and align the flippers in the future. What a novel concept.

Putler should learn his history. Terror bombing with the aim of intimidating and breaking the will of the population has literally never worked (outside of the atomic bombs). The English people were almost totally disinterested in a war on the continent ... until Hitler and Goering started turning London into rubble. The U.S. burned all of Tokyo to ash with incendiary bombs and it didn't change a thing.