Author Topic: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions  (Read 1267896 times)

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Offline clappingcactus

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3800 on: Mon, 31 July 2017, 12:49:33 »
Pretty much all SA/GMK sets especially lately are freaking ugly.


Bring on the brightly colored, unicorn vomit sets.

Yeah, a lot of folks seem to think that colored legends look good. Most of the time, they look simply atrocious.

I like colored legends because they're a side effect of us being in this hobby at this time. Soon enough the fad will go away and it'll be a historical curiosity. Which is why I'm reveling in it as much as I can. I completely agree with you that they're a poor design decision. But some times, good design is not the only reason to appreciate design at all!

Offline zslane

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3801 on: Mon, 31 July 2017, 12:50:43 »
Sorry, I'm not into avante garde art. Ugly is ugly no matter how you contextualize it.

Offline dante

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3802 on: Mon, 31 July 2017, 12:54:13 »
7-bit's Honeywell SA set is the most aesthetically pleasing to my eyes; preferably all gray (as boring as that is to some.)

Think of MaxKeys Portland - but all Grey.

When you start getting creative CalmDepths is another good one.

Everything else ... eh....

Offline zslane

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3803 on: Mon, 31 July 2017, 13:05:00 »
I don't get the appeal of Calm Depths. It marries light blue legends with medium gray caps (for the mods), offering very little contrast. It just doesn't look good to my eyes.

Offline dante

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3804 on: Mon, 31 July 2017, 13:12:36 »
I don't get the appeal of Calm Depths. It marries light blue legends with medium gray caps (for the mods), offering very little contrast. It just doesn't look good to my eyes.

Yeah, I think you are right.  It's been a while since I seen them.

7-Bit is the one to beat.
« Last Edit: Mon, 31 July 2017, 13:46:24 by dante »

Offline Snorelax

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3805 on: Mon, 31 July 2017, 13:42:54 »
1. Anything but a fullsize is useless
2. Any MX style clicky switch other than Kailh Bronze or Box White is awful
3. Anything less tactile than a Zealio should not be considered a tactile switch
4. ABS keycaps should not exist, no matter how thick
5. Translucent switch housings are ugly, backlighting LED's similar to Razer's RGB are superior to SMD
6. Floating keycap design is hideous
7. Hotswap should be a standard in keyboards and PCBs
8. Pad printing should be punishable by death
9. ISO layout is the superior layout
10. I like (some) chiclet rubber dome keyboards

Offline dante

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3806 on: Mon, 31 July 2017, 13:50:42 »
4. ABS keycaps should not exist, no matter how thick
7. Hotswap should be a standard in keyboards and PCBs

#4: I have a preference for ABS because I like super smooth caps to where it is like typing on glass.  Unfortunately not all ABS is this smooth.

#7: Agreed.  Hopefully Kailh hot swap sockets get some love ASAP.

Offline zslane

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3807 on: Mon, 31 July 2017, 13:57:14 »
1. Anything but a fullsize is useless
2. Any MX style clicky switch other than Kailh Bronze or Box White is awful
3. Anything less tactile than a Zealio should not be considered a tactile switch
4. ABS keycaps should not exist, no matter how thick
5. Translucent switch housings are ugly, backlighting LED's similar to Razer's RGB are superior to SMD
6. Floating keycap design is hideous
7. Hotswap should be a standard in keyboards and PCBs
8. Pad printing should be punishable by death
9. ISO layout is the superior layout
10. I like (some) chiclet rubber dome keyboards

I agree with most of this, actually. My only comments would be:

3. Maybe we need two different categories: sharp tactile and soft tactile.
4. Until double-shot PBT is perfected and commonplace, I'm afraid ABS is necessary. Dye-sub alone is simply not sufficient.
9. Alas, ISO isn't a single standard, but a family of standards that almost guarantees limited representation in custom keycap sets; a layout tower of babel, if you will. Furthermore, the ISO Return wastes an entire keycap position for absolutely zero benefit.
10. Shame on you. Turn in your mech keyboard geek card immediately.  :eek:

Offline davkol

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3808 on: Mon, 31 July 2017, 15:02:16 »
#4: I have a preference for ABS because I like super smooth caps to where it is like typing on glass.  Unfortunately not all ABS is this smooth.
And not all PBT caps have a rough texture. They could be made with the same kind of top surface as there's on their walls: even smooth to the point of being glossy.

9. Alas, ISO isn't a single standard, but a family of standards that almost guarantees limited representation in custom keycap sets; a layout tower of babel, if you will.
ISO/IEC 9995-1 is as standard as it gets.

Offline zslane

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3809 on: Mon, 31 July 2017, 16:05:31 »
ISO/IEC 9995-1 is as standard as it gets.

Right. Okay, let me rephrase:

9. Alas, ISO isn't a single layout, but a family of layouts that almost guarantees limited representation in custom keycap sets; a layout tower of babel, if you will.

Offline davkol

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3810 on: Mon, 31 July 2017, 16:50:05 »
ISO/IEC 9995 is a framework for national standards.

Offline zslane

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3811 on: Mon, 31 July 2017, 19:39:46 »
Yep, and that's the problem.

Offline Niomosy

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3812 on: Mon, 31 July 2017, 20:32:39 »
Pretty much all SA/GMK sets especially lately are freaking ugly.


Bring on the brightly colored, unicorn vomit sets.

Yeah, a lot of folks seem to think that colored legends look good. Most of the time, they look simply atrocious.

Colored legends can look good.  I think they're being a bit overdone on white or light gray caps lately.  Lots of people seem to like it so those set creators are doing something right.  It's not really my thing, though.

As for Calm Depths, I find the alpha caps to be very nice but am neutral on the mods. 

Offline zslane

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3813 on: Mon, 31 July 2017, 20:52:52 »
Lots of people seem to like it so those set creators are doing something right.

Argumentum ad populum. I could facetiously counter-argue that lots of people seem to like cigarettes, so Big Tobacco must be doing something "right". Marketplace success does not always equal Doing Something Good.

Offline Niomosy

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3814 on: Tue, 01 August 2017, 16:13:38 »
Lots of people seem to like it so those set creators are doing something right.

Argumentum ad populum. I could facetiously counter-argue that lots of people seem to like cigarettes, so Big Tobacco must be doing something "right". Marketplace success does not always equal Doing Something Good.

On a plus note, keysets don't have the addictive qualities of nicotine.  They probably do trigger the addictive natures of collectors though.

Offline Giorgio

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3815 on: Mon, 14 August 2017, 03:39:24 »
Metal cases are just an easy way to earn some money. We all fall for this myth of the metal CNC cases, when the last thing that you want for nine months in a year is to touch a cold surface which reverberates the sound of your keyboard enhancing the ping.
« Last Edit: Mon, 14 August 2017, 03:49:23 by Giorgio »

Offline pabile

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3816 on: Mon, 14 August 2017, 04:21:27 »
Metal cases are just an easy way to earn some money. We all fall for this myth of the metal CNC cases, when the last thing that you want for nine months in a year is to touch a cold surface which reverberates the sound of your keyboard enhancing the ping.

i think it is more of the solid/heavy look and feel that makes these metal cases sell. pings are small trade off that can be corrected with a cheap mat.
i agree on the cold surface ...and occasional shock from metal exposed area due to peeled/worn out paint.

Offline teraflame

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3817 on: Mon, 14 August 2017, 13:10:36 »
Yeah I like wood the best, surprised they aren't more popular. Would love more wood options.
Rubber in domes

Offline WhyYouLikeDis

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3818 on: Fri, 18 August 2017, 10:11:41 »
I love OEM profile.
Imsto pbt is too thick.

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Offline fleischverpackung

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3819 on: Fri, 18 August 2017, 11:40:36 »
everyone using keyboards in a professional way won't be happy without tenkey.

Offline zslane

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3820 on: Fri, 18 August 2017, 11:56:46 »
Metal cases are just an easy way to earn some money. We all fall for this myth of the metal CNC cases, when the last thing that you want for nine months in a year is to touch a cold surface which reverberates the sound of your keyboard enhancing the ping.

I've never noticed coldness or reverberations from the aluminum cases that my Pok3rs have. But maybe it's different with real keyboards (not toy keyboards like 60%ers) with full cases. I'd love to try a full-size board in an aluminum case just to see if your claim stands up to actual experience. But those are so rare, I'm not sure I'll ever get the chance...

Offline antquinonez

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3821 on: Fri, 18 August 2017, 14:35:29 »
everyone using keyboards in a professional way won't be happy without tenkey.

Some people get the 10 key pad as a separate device. They'll have this setup on the desk: keyboard space-mouse space-10 key space
I just bring my mouse down, below the 10 key area of my keyboard.

Offline davkol

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3822 on: Fri, 18 August 2017, 17:05:16 »
"a professional way" = "excel monkey"

Offline Giorgio

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3823 on: Fri, 18 August 2017, 17:09:10 »
"a professional way" = "excel monkey"

Engineering master.

Offline Giorgio

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3824 on: Fri, 18 August 2017, 17:10:24 »
Metal cases are just an easy way to earn some money. We all fall for this myth of the metal CNC cases, when the last thing that you want for nine months in a year is to touch a cold surface which reverberates the sound of your keyboard enhancing the ping.

I've never noticed coldness or reverberations from the aluminum cases that my Pok3rs have. But maybe it's different with real keyboards (not toy keyboards like 60%ers) with full cases. I'd love to try a full-size board in an aluminum case just to see if your claim stands up to actual experience. But those are so rare, I'm not sure I'll ever get the chance...

Did you try a super cheap plastic case? It has a nicer sound than the stock one.

Offline zslane

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3825 on: Fri, 18 August 2017, 17:44:27 »
My KBP V60 mini originally came in a cheap plastic case. The keyboard just felt cheap overall. I've since re-cased it in a Lambo aluminum case (lined with sorbothane strips) and it sounds and feels way better, at least to me.

I expect the same to hold true when I compare a NovaTouch in its stock case with a NovaTouch in a Norbauer aluminum case. But we'll see.

Offline Giorgio

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3826 on: Tue, 22 August 2017, 06:34:39 »
Most GMK sets are ugly.

This happens because group leaders rarely have the courage and taste to try new color combos, so, to justify the bad taste, they sell variations of already tried colorways.

Soon we'll have the miami dolch hyperfused in industrial IBM with olivetti secondary legends.

Offline zslane

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3827 on: Tue, 22 August 2017, 11:55:38 »
Yes, well, there's no accounting for taste in this community...  :p

Offline Skinjob

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3828 on: Tue, 22 August 2017, 18:21:01 »
Full Size and 96 Keys are my favorite layouts by far. Every time I see a full size board with a nice keyset it gets my vote.

I honestly think TKL is the smallest board I could ever actually use and I would 100% have a numpad separate above my mousepad. If I ever used a laptop or something that required me to lug around a board I might change my mind.

I've started into Artisans that are the proper shape for a keycap, but I really find shaped Artisans make me feel like it was hastily thrown into what was a well designed keyset, even when the colors match.


That being said I love LOOKING at the cool small form and ergo/split/nonsense keyboards you crazies come up with. I just know I'm that much more efficient on a big board.

Offline volatilecoffee

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3829 on: Wed, 23 August 2017, 02:25:19 »
If you complain about wrist pain/fatigue/strain and buy a wrist wrest, you deserve to be euthanized.
Linear gang needs to rise up against the tactile hipsters.

Offline 4sStylZ

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3830 on: Wed, 23 August 2017, 03:27:29 »
In the past I was suffering with some TMS issue.

  • I have changed my layout → Less pain but still pain ;
  • I have swiched for a TypeMatrix → Less pain but still pain ;
  • I have tested a small Grifitti wrist pad → Less pain but still pain ;
  • I have a big fat ass Grifitti wrist pad → Almost no pain.

The Wrist pad is under my hands, my elbows (and I often sit on them), my wrists. He provide me a very natural position on the keyboard.

Bépo user here : AEK64 White linear dampened, XD75 Cherry Blue Jailhoused, TypeMatrix2030 black skin, Lenovo 0B47200 w/ trackpoint, G13, G512. Kensington Expert Trackball & Orbit, Magic touchpad 2.

Offline davkol

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3831 on: Wed, 23 August 2017, 05:17:38 »
The Grifiti Fat pads should be twice as tall, then we can talk.

Also, notice how the person in that photo has elbows in front of their body (wrong) and still bent wrists: slightly upwards in inwards (wrong).

Offline 4sStylZ

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3832 on: Wed, 23 August 2017, 06:03:43 »
Also, notice how the person in that photo has elbows in front of their body (wrong) and still bent wrists: slightly upwards in inwards (wrong).

I just post the picture for illustrate the wrist-pad. I don’t have the same keyboard and the same position. Mine is natural.
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Offline davkol

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3833 on: Wed, 23 August 2017, 06:36:14 »
That's possible, but those pads make it rather harder than easier.

Even the fat model is about the same height as a typematrix (just tried), i.e., knuckles are still quite a bit higher than the rest. That's not neutral wrist posture.


The huge one is also almost forearm length (>20 cm). It might work with belly tucked towards the desk/tray, but it's a bit too much imho (especially for me, because I move around my standing desk).

Offline ander

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3834 on: Sun, 27 August 2017, 05:12:31 »
In the past I was suffering with some TMS issue.

  • I have changed my layout → Less pain but still pain ;
  • I have swiched for a TypeMatrix → Less pain but still pain ;
  • I have tested a small Grifitti wrist pad → Less pain but still pain ;
  • I have a big fat ass Grifitti wrist pad → Almost no pain.

The Wrist pad is under my hands, my elbows (and I often sit on them), my wrists. He provide me a very natural position on the keyboard...

TMS? Are you actually referring to Repetitive Strain Injury (RSI)?

I don't know if you've heard about this, but there's clinical evidence now that much work-related wrist and arm pain isn't from physical injury, but is psychosomatic—created by the unconscious mind, in reaction to repetitive, unchallenging work. In other words, your brain gets so bored, it creates an impression of pain to express its frustration.

It sounds wild, but I'm not making this up. Here's an interesting story about it in the UK's Daily Mail.

There is a medical condition called TMS—Tension Myositis Syndrome. And that is, by its very nature, psychosomatic (created in the mind). So if that's really what you have, it would seem obvious that it's the kind of work you're doing, and not typing itself, that's causing the problem.
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Offline davkol

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3835 on: Sun, 27 August 2017, 16:05:05 »
Yes, Daily Mail is a reputable source. Oh wait, it isn't.

Offline Kavik

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3836 on: Sun, 10 September 2017, 11:20:40 »
I hate that 90% of the photos on r/mk are of HHKBs. They are ugly.
Maybe they're waiting for gasmasks and latex to get sexy again.

The world has become a weird place.

Offline zslane

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3837 on: Sun, 10 September 2017, 12:27:13 »
I hate that 90% of the photos on r/mk are of HHKBs. They are ugly.

It's not just /r/mk. The "Post your Topre" thread here is the same. It's as if people actually think we've never seen an HHKB before. (And, no, throwing a random assortment of artisans on it does not make it more "special", just uglier.)

Offline ideus

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3838 on: Sun, 10 September 2017, 22:27:08 »
I hate that 90% of the photos on r/mk are of HHKBs. They are ugly.

It's not just /r/mk. The "Post your Topre" thread here is the same. It's as if people actually think we've never seen an HHKB before. (And, no, throwing a random assortment of artisans on it does not make it more "special", just uglier.)


Thought I was alone on this sentiment. Waste of space, and bandwidth to show photos of the same boards, in the same colors, with the same key caps.

Offline PollandAkuma

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3839 on: Mon, 11 September 2017, 00:08:38 »
Seems like my unpopular opinion is that DSA profile is great, and SA is too high. Oh, and also, topre is too heavy.

Offline JohanAR

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3840 on: Mon, 11 September 2017, 10:23:26 »
It's ridiculous that the vast majority of all keyboards made today have horizontally staggered rows just because mechanical typewriters - that haven't been used for decades - had some technical limitations

Offline Kavik

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3841 on: Mon, 11 September 2017, 11:42:22 »
Seems like my unpopular opinion is that DSA profile is great, and SA is too high. Oh, and also, topre is too heavy.

I really like both DSA and SA. I think SA is fun to type on, but I'm type the fastest on DSA. Plus, I can put any key on any row with DSA, which is a nice plus.

I almost wish modern keyboards would do what IBM keyboards did: make every keycap the same profile but curve the PCB and Plate.
« Last Edit: Mon, 11 September 2017, 13:17:59 by Kavik »
Maybe they're waiting for gasmasks and latex to get sexy again.

The world has become a weird place.

Offline zslane

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3842 on: Mon, 11 September 2017, 11:59:09 »
Yeah, curved backplates would be an interesting thing to bring back. Or angled stems. But since nobody is going to do either of those things, we're stuck with angled row profiles.

I would love to see DSA or XDA get sculptured row profiles as an option. I love SA (and MT3 to come), but a medium-height, sculptured, spherical keycap family would be awesome too.

Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3843 on: Mon, 11 September 2017, 12:46:54 »
SA is too high.

I definitely agree with this one.  I love how SA sets look, but I've sold all of mine because I just don't like the way they feel.  I sometimes get the sense that the SA hype started from pictures and most people haven't tried them yet to really know how they feel. 

I disagree with your other two comments though.  :P

Offline iFreilicht

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3844 on: Tue, 12 September 2017, 04:55:43 »
Yeah, curved backplates would be an interesting thing to bring back. Or angled stems. But since nobody is going to do either of those things, we're stuck with angled row profiles.

Certainly agree on angled stems, but extreme examples like the Dactyl and Kinesis Advantage at least show that a board with cylindrical curvature would be technically feasible to manufacture. Could be pretty darn expensive, though. The question is of course whether there's a market for this, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was.
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Offline _haru

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3845 on: Tue, 12 September 2017, 05:24:23 »
IMO the HHKB bottom-row layout is positively stupid. You're on a 60% with reduced usable space already, and for some reason you decide to block out positions for some of the keys???
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Offline davkol

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3846 on: Tue, 12 September 2017, 05:48:06 »
IMO the HHKB bottom-row layout is positively stupid. You're on a 60% with reduced usable space already, and for some reason you decide to block out positions for some of the keys???

Did you know that HHKB was designed in early 1990s?
That it was partially based on even older Apple M0110?
That contemporary mainstream (IBM Model M) had gaps between Ctrl and Alt?

Probably not.

Now, you might argue that it doesn't matter in 2017, and PFU could have added extra keys later. Well, did you know that HHKB was designed "to stop key inflation"?

But PFU have added keys anyway, see Lite or JP models.

A better criticism would be about the size of the spacebar on almost every mainstream keyboard ever.

Offline _haru

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3847 on: Tue, 12 September 2017, 07:28:49 »
Interesting. Didn't know that. I thought the HHKB was a relatively modern keyboard  :-X
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Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3848 on: Tue, 12 September 2017, 12:50:45 »
Interesting. Didn't know that. I thought the HHKB was a relatively modern keyboard  :-X

It is "modern" in that it's still produced and popular, but it does have a pretty lengthy history for a production board. 

In addition to davkol's points, I'd add that from an ergonomic/usability perspective, keys in the bottom corners of a 60% board are often hard to hit and require some contorting/re-positioning of the hand.  I don't really feel like I lose any functionality with an HHKB, I'm just not hurting myself to reach ctrl anymore.  :P

Offline cribbit

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #3849 on: Tue, 12 September 2017, 13:18:48 »
Interesting. Didn't know that. I thought the HHKB was a relatively modern keyboard  :-X

It is "modern" in that it's still produced and popular, but it does have a pretty lengthy history for a production board. 

In addition to davkol's points, I'd add that from an ergonomic/usability perspective, keys in the bottom corners of a 60% board are often hard to hit and require some contorting/re-positioning of the hand.  I don't really feel like I lose any functionality with an HHKB, I'm just not hurting myself to reach ctrl anymore.  :P

Get an ergodox style board and join the thumb cluster master race.
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