Author Topic: Dvorak/Colemak users?  (Read 10379 times)

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Offline PieterGen

  • Posts: 135
Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #50 on: Thu, 14 January 2016, 06:47:26 »
I use a Dvorak-like layout, which is AdNW.  How about this list that I made? Five questions for finding your optimal layout

1. Works anywhere?
If you want a layout that works everywhere, your best bet is Qwerty (or its variants azerty/qwertz)

2. Custom hardware?
If you use your own custom hardware, such as an Ergodox or a DIY board with different key-locations (split spacebar, matrix layout etc.) then a custom layout may be optimal

3. Rolls or alternation?
As Davkol correctly writes, there are basically two paradigms: rolls and alternations. Since there is no hard evidence what is better, let your hands decide what you like best. Try out Colemak (=rolls) and Dvorak (=alternations) on your keyboard(s) and decide what feels best for you.

4. Similarity to Qwerty ?
If this is important to you, chose Colemak, Minimak, qwpr or one of the minimal change Carpalx versions.

5. Ready-made or custom?
Within each paradigm, there are several "ready made" layouts. Ready made " rolls"  layouts include Colemak and (stock) MTGAP; ready alternating layouts include Dvorak and AdNW. Alternatively, you could calculate your own, using software that you can find on the Carpalx, MTGAP and AdNW-websites.  Reasons for designing a custom layout can be: you type in a language very different from English; you code and use special symbols all the time; you have special wishes like less use of pinkies, no use of left ring finger etc; you have Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and think that the ready made layouts are not good enough ;-)

Is it worth it?
Yes. It is definitely a nicer typing experience. However, in the grand scheme of things I would say that learning to touch type and using a good keyboard.

Offline Glod

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #51 on: Thu, 14 January 2016, 20:14:31 »
on my 4th day of using colemak on my ergodox. i decided to take the plunge because i wanted to do something more ergonomic, and to prove something i guess. i also own 9 custom keyboards i can natively remap.



i have the layout fully memorized and can touch type, the ergodox makes that very easy with its matrix layout, i could use blanks if i wanted to

i range between 14 and 20 wpm right now, wrote this post with it and have been writing my work emails with it so i am essentially trowing myself in the deep end

i decided on colemak over dvorak or workman because it looks to be the easiest transition from qwerty and i like the focus on the home row, it feels immediately more ergonomic

i didn't map the left hand backspace, i feel control belongs there :)

i will say though i hate the r/s swap and i think this is permanently damaging my ability to type 90wpm in qwerty so it better be worth it
GLOD
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Offline Glod

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #52 on: Thu, 14 January 2016, 20:29:47 »
Edit: the only problem I can see with it is not having the keysets to support the layouts :(

you know i thought about this today, "Damn the world for no dvorak/colemak DCS/CHERRY/GMK!!!" and there is only 3 SCULPTED SA sets i know of for these layouts, but as i am learning i am learning to touch type amazingly fast, in the end it really wont matter what is on the legends, you can do training wheels with stickers and/or DSA (what i am doing) but down the road there is little benefit to hunt and pecking these layouts. these legends should be purely cosmetic if you are a good typest. that's not to say i wouldn't jump on lets say a colemak GMK kit, we can only dream, damn these MOQs!!
GLOD
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Offline Kliwon

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #53 on: Mon, 25 January 2016, 05:08:45 »
because I have been using qwerty, I try to use a different layout.
between dovark and Colemak , I'm more interested in the Colemak because it was closer to a sentence in a language that I use compared qwerty  ;D

Offline bocahgundul

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #54 on: Mon, 25 January 2016, 05:14:18 »
Its been 2 months since I used dvorak and my typing speed increase by 10 wpm really recommended to use dvorak and it doesn't cause finger strain like qwerty keyboard does

Offline thatllbeme

  • Posts: 21
Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #55 on: Mon, 25 January 2016, 05:25:45 »
With my custom boards finished I've been alternating between Dvorak and Qwerty: while my Dvorak WPM is not nearly up to the same speed as Qwerty, I've found it a lot more comfortable to use. I've also noticed small bursts of really fast typing which I don't get on a Qwerty layout. I've decided to use Dvorak on my custom, linear layout board and keep to Qwerty on my staggered boards so I retain muscle memory for both. It's working well so far.

Offline Fiery

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #56 on: Mon, 25 January 2016, 06:17:15 »
Dvorak converter reporting in. I'm still in the process of converting, but I feel more comfortable on Dvorak now compared to QWERTY. I switched because I felt QWERTY was stupid and archaic. I feel that dvorak is alot more comfortable to type on, also I reccomend making Caps lock into backspace as its alot easier to use. you dont have to move pour hands as much. im up to 30 wpm now after 2 months, but only one month full conversion.

CM QFTKL (MX Greens), Pok3r (MX Clears)

Offline PieterGen

  • Posts: 135
Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #57 on: Mon, 25 January 2016, 07:28:06 »
For those on the fence: both rolling and alternating layouts have their strong points.

Rolling feels fast & easy. I also found it easier to remember (tried Colemak and Mtgap). The disadvantages to me was that there are many not-so-nice rolls as well - think of traps in Colemak. Plus, it felt like I was typing some chunks of letters left, then some chunks right, etc. This gets worse if the " chunks"  on one hand are on average longer that those on the other hand. This does not show in statistics, a perfectly balanced 50/50 layout may be (left hand typed letters L,   right hand typed letters R)

LLLL RRR L R LLLL RRR LLL RR LLL RR LLL RR LLL RR LL R LLL RRRRRRRRRR.     This is a line of 18 words, 50% left hand typed, 50% righthand. But it feels very un-even, because most righthanded words are shorter that the lefthanded words.

The difference between rolling an alternating is, by the way, not a sharp one. All layouts have some rolls and some alternation - so when do you start calling it "rolling"  or " alternating" ? 

Alternating layouts are (to me) harder to learn. Also, they can feel slower, because there is not the fast and familiar "roll". But, they feel more even, more steady, not the clusters of letters, but a nice steady "flow"  of letters.
« Last Edit: Mon, 25 January 2016, 07:30:08 by PieterGen »

Offline nickw

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  • Location: Vancouver BC
Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #58 on: Mon, 25 January 2016, 17:44:06 »
I've been using colemak for a couple months now.  I'm still not up to my qwerty speed, but am already fast enough that it isn't a burden, and I am liking it so far.  It's actually  pretty hard  to give an objective opinion on it.  I do notice when I need to type on qwerty that I have to move my hands a lot more to be efficient, where in colemak I can leave them on the home row for the most part.

I have tried to learn dvorak a couple of times in the past, but always failed, because I couldn't really tolerate the speed drop of going back to hunt and peck while I learned the new layout.  (When you're trying to do your job on a computer, 5-10wpm is insufficient.)

Anyone who wants to learn colemak, forget trying to go 100%, and check out tarmak.  It's a set of 4 transitional  layouts for switching from qwerty to colemak.  Each one moves 3-4 keys, so you can learn it a bit at a time.  Because only about half of the keys change, it can be done without much overhead in relearning.   The only key that gets moved around repeatedly is the j.

Because it's only 3-4 keys out of place, it's not too much of a penalty to your typing speed.  You need to think about where those keys are, which will slow you down, but you should still be able to maintain a usable speed.  once you get back up to say 40wpm, you move  onto tarmak2, where another few keys get scrambled, and so on.

It was around 10 days before I was switched fully to colemak (the first couple steps went very quickly) but I maintained a usable typing speed throughout.  If I hadn't used tarmak, I might have gotten to the same point a couple days sooner, but I wouldn't have been able to work normally in the mean time.

Offline Glod

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #59 on: Mon, 25 January 2016, 19:50:32 »
its been about two weeks since i switched to colemak and right now i am up to 35 wpm average, the highest i got was 40wpm, im using my atreus which has no legends, dsa blanks, so i really threw myself in to deep end. i think i would have faster wpm if i was using sculpted key caps and not dsa.
GLOD
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Offline droshi

  • Posts: 28
Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #60 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 09:47:18 »
I've switched a long time ago to Dvorak before Colemak came out. It was great and I liked it for many years, but the biggest problem for me had always been the copy paste functions. Just before trying out Colemak, I found AHK and it was nice, but certain AHK shortcuts nagged me because they were all remapped, and I was kind of used to the weird Dvorak equivalent. Ctrl + T...and so on.

A couple months ago I switched to Colemak. I like it. I used to type around ~70 wpm on Dvorak, now I'm up to 55-60 wpm on Colemak. My biggest mistakes are usually +-{} which I use in programming frequently and were switched in Dvorak.

I thought about programmers Dvorak, but ultimately I really like Colemak for the shortcuts. Pretty much same benefits I found in Dvorak for typing (except typing L no longer kills my pinky), and better productivity on a computer. With buying a Pok3r, it's even nicer as everything is contained in the board for switching Colemak and generally remapping keys. I just wish I could find Colemak keycaps for my pok3r that keeps the secondary Fn layer.
« Last Edit: Wed, 27 January 2016, 18:53:46 by droshi »

Offline hoosieree

  • Posts: 31
Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #61 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 15:39:47 »
Just tried both Dvorak and Colemak for the first time recently.  As a qwerty touch-typist, Colemak's learning curve is shorter, but Dvorak's consistency might win me over.

Offline Glod

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #62 on: Wed, 24 February 2016, 00:33:10 »
Loving Colemak, at 55-60wpm on both matrix and staggered layouts all touchtype, Got it programmed into my atreus, Satan gh60, phantom, ergodox and autohotkey for everything else.

I feel like I've reached the point of difficult return as I can no longer touch type in QWERTY, and at one point I was typing 100 wpm in QWERTY.

The problem with my QWERTY typing was I wasn't doing it proper, I only used 2 fingers on my right hand and would cramp up my left hand, by learning Colemak strictly touch-type correctly from the beginning, everything feels distributed and healthy, and I feel less like needing to use ergo boards even though I love my atreus.

Side note,
Also changed my Android Google Keyboard to Colemak under languages to download and I swipe with it pretty fast, it helps keeping consistent across platforms.
GLOD
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Offline Fiery

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #63 on: Wed, 24 February 2016, 00:49:34 »
So I thought I would do as Glod and come back here and make a quick update.

 I feel I can no longer type on QWERTY, but I don't see why I would want to.

 I have never been a fast typist but I am now reaching speeds about the same as I did on QWERTY, and I feel I can still get quite a bit faster.

I am really glad I decided to make the plunge and get away from the old outdated QWERTY layout.

CM QFTKL (MX Greens), Pok3r (MX Clears)

Offline Glod

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #64 on: Fri, 20 October 2017, 18:03:08 »
Necro Post

The day finally came for me

GMK with Colemak



I mean it really was not necessary, I really dont look at my keyboard, I touch type, But it is still cool as F**K!

I currently peaked at 75wpm with Colemak, I have yet to get any faster than that. I do much less typing than i did in the past though which could be the reason. And when I travel and work with other people's PCs I have to use QWERTY which confuses my mind.

I still consider it a success, fingers feel so much better.
« Last Edit: Tue, 24 October 2017, 12:39:11 by Glod »
GLOD
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Offline ctrl

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  • Location: Umeň, Sweden
Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #65 on: Wed, 01 November 2017, 07:47:23 »
I've been thinking about switching. I've been considering Dvorak, but would like some feedback on my thoughts about it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the math behind Colemak is based on English. So the pros of using Colemak would be the pros of typing in English.

My native language is Swedish. I type in both Swedish and English. Both quite often. To me it sounds like alternating hands is a better suited option as it is language-neutral.

Colemak doesn't have, to my knowledge, any official Swedish layout, meaning all Swedish layouts I see online are various individual solutions. My impression is that Colemak prides itself on optimizing how often certain keys are struck by what fingers. That math quickly becomes irrelevant when you introduce letters from other languages than English as well as untested keymapping.

While there are 2-3 Dvorak layouts to choose between in Swedish, there's actually an official Dvorak layout in Norwegian and Norwegian uses the same extra vowels that Swedish do. In fact one of the Swedish layouts is pretty much the Norwegian one straight off.

All the above is probably old news, but there's something else I'm considering too. I've been considering dropping ISO in favor of ANSI for practical custom-keyboard reasons. I'm thinking the extra vowels in Swedish could be remapped to the same positions on an English Dvorak layout using Alt Gr (or Alt Gr mapped to split spacebar) - I think this could work with Dvorak as I'd Alt Gr with my right thumb and then alternate to a vowel with my left hand.

What are your thoughts? Am I thinking about this the wrong way? Have I misunderstood the intentions of Colemak? Are there any Colemak users typing in a language other than English? Anyone try experimenting with languages and layers and if so, how did it turn out?

Offline davkol

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #66 on: Wed, 01 November 2017, 10:24:03 »
Heatmaps for a language significantly different from English:

As you can see, it's still quite reasonable.

I don't have a good visualization of keystroke sequences (yet), but the numbers translate pretty well between languages.

Offline Nixon

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #67 on: Thu, 02 November 2017, 11:23:26 »
Started using Dvorak to stop colleagues from using my workstation PC at work. Got use enough to it that all my computers and laptops are now set up for Dvorak.

Offline rebus

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #68 on: Fri, 03 November 2017, 15:46:06 »
Language certainly matters. I started with Colemak years ago but soon discovered that Dvorak was better suited for Italian. Or at least, I do feel more comfortable with Dvorak. Don't know about Swedish, anyway both are far better choices than Qwerty.


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