Are staggered split layouts less ergo than columnar staggered split layouts?

[nmur]

asking this mainly because the new LZ ErGO looks amazing, but fear that the layout may not be the most comfortable for the left hand

example of a standard staggered split layout on a V.EA. the asymmetry of the standard staggered layout is increased after rotating each half:



and an example of a symmetrical columnar staggered split layout:

[TD22057]

I've spent about 3 weeks w/ my custom symmetric board and I've have mixed feelings about it.  I love the design and think it works great.  However, I still have to use a laptop and other peoples boards sometimes and that causes problems for me.  I was fast (95 wpm) on a regular, staggered qwerty layout and I'm not anywhere close to that on the new board, and I have problems when I switch to my laptop.  So I'm considering designing my own own staggered split layout to go back to a more traditional design (the LZ ErGO looks fantastic though).

[Phenix]

Can please someone explain whats so great about the erGO LZ ??
Wouldnt it be better to have individual parts that one can arrange like ones liking?

[Data]

Can please someone explain whats so great about the erGO LZ ??
Wouldnt it be better to have individual parts that one can arrange like ones liking?

It's a compromise.  Hand separation and horizontal tilt are two features that make it moderately more ergonomic than a standard flat tenkeyless.  It's basically the Korean custom version of the Microsoft Natural keyboard.  MS has a bit more scoop in the key rows and some negative tilt, but it's also rubber dome.  /sadness

Whether that's enough "ergo" for you is a personal decision.  If you're coming from bone-stock $12 rubber domes it's probably a massive upgrade.  If you're coming from Maltron or something you built yourself to fit your hands exclusively, the LZ is probably a bit of an enigma. 

[Phenix]

Actually using an ergodox. But imo the TS65 once finished/tested is nicer (as its 2- piece).
Same goes for the VA.E.
But thats just my personal feeling.

btw: that ms ergo is awkward to type on, lent it for few hours

[Niomosy]

I've never been overly fond of the matrix layouts, partly due to them being symmetric.  A split, tented, staggered is all I'm after.  I use too many keys in my day-to-day work to want to bother with a matrix keyboard that's going to end up with some of those right-hand keys in sub-optimal locations to keep symmetry.

[Phenix]

Just to compare - I had an ergo pro (matias tactile) for 3 weeks and hand positioning wasnt that nice on it.

like I said - search for TS65. Once finished it should be a great. Board

[Niomosy]

Just to compare - I had an ergo pro (matias tactile) for 3 weeks and hand positioning wasnt that nice on it.

like I said - search for TS65. Once finished it should be a great. Board

That's nice.  A 75% version of that would be pretty ideal if one could be made at a decent cost.  Loved the VE.A but the price was too much for me.  For now I sit and wait to see if the Cherry MX based Freestyle ever makes it out.  That or maybe something comparable. 

[Phenix]

Imo TS65 will cost somewhat less 100$+an nice fitting case.
For F keys maybe an numberblock/layer?

[Niomosy]

Imo TS65 will cost somewhat less 100$+an nice fitting case.
For F keys maybe an numberblock/layer?

The price isn't bad but it's insufficient in keys on a single layer for me.

[Parzival]

I think they would be less ergo than the columnar just because the ways your fingers have to move to reach the bottom row keys

[glax]

Staggered split layouts definitely are less ergo than columnar staggered split layouts.
Ok, you may also screw up columnar staggered layouts, but generally, the fingers seem to move more comfortable along those columns.

One drawback, though: backward compatibility. You will miss keys and slow down on staggered layouts. Even worse, gotten used to column layout and its comfort, your will develop profound aversions against working on row staggered layouts. At least I did. If you switch keyboards a lot, this annoyance makes the overall situation very non-ergo.

Therefore, IMHO:
If you are in a position allowing you to work with your keyboard and your keyboard only, go the whole way and use a non-staggered or column staggered layout.
If you switch keyboards a lot or often use your notebook's keyboard, don't.

[Findecanor]

IMHO, staggered QWERTY is bad only if you
- place the keyboard with the alphanumeric area in the centre, and
- force the left hand into typing in columns according to the classic touch-typing method (which would put the wrist in a weird angle and use completely wrong column offsets forcing you to move the hand forwards and backwards).

A staggered QWERTY keyboard works best if placed shifted slightly to the left. Myself, I use a TKL with a small mouse pad to the right and I place the centre of both of these combined in front of the centre of my computer screen.
Only my right hand is oriented into the classic "touch-typing" columns. My left wrist is oriented straight up but slanting more. The left hand's "columns" are arcs of WSZ, EDX, RFC, etc. not lines of WSX, EDC, RFV.

I once studied three right-hand columns: right middle-finger, ring-finger and first pinky column, comparing those in QWERTY against M-system - which is a Japanese columnar system, with several keyboards made in the '80s.
I found that the right-hand middle-finger and pinky columns actually had the same column offset to one-another in both layouts, within an error of two millimetres. The ring finger column differed more. The index finger columns were worse but that finger is more agile which would make up for the difference.

More

I then started to sketch on a custom keyboard that would be a middle-ground between staggered QWERTY and columnar M-system on the right hand, and symmetrically mirrored to the left. I also experimented with having slightly curved key wells. The idea was to get a more ergonomic layout for touch-typists while retaining the overall familiar look of a staggered keyboard thus designing it to be more accessible to more people. I put the project on a shelf because of the need for custom-shaped keycaps and the difficulty of creating curved key-wells. I still have a partial mock-up and several thick keycaps with the corners filed down...

More recently, I have been looking at instead making a split keyboard with a symmetric stagger (much like the µTron) because that would allow for standard keycaps to be used.

I am personally not a fan of ortholinear keyboards. There should be proper offsets between columns. The ErgoDox has half as big offsets as it should have IMHO. The M-system was designed after real human hands.