Author Topic: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe  (Read 8301 times)

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Offline davkol

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #50 on: Mon, 31 July 2017, 07:32:13 »
Putting them on the other side of the keyboard also makes sure that consecutive finger load is going to be as low as it can get.
It leads to perfectly maximized hand alternation and thus zero same-finger ratio, when typing in a language/orthography, where each and every syllable is formed from exactly one consonant and one vowel (in the same order). Which is never the case.

In practice, for example, Maltron THOR (with maximized vowel _separation_) has a lower same-finger ratio than Dvorak Simplified Keyboard. (calculated on English novels from Project Gutenberg, that ship with carpalx)

While I don't have any data hand alteration in my mind makes the most sense because this way you reduce the awkward positions your hand needs to make because it has time to move to the next letter as the other hand is typing. Thought obviously not completely removes it.
In theory, yes. However, plenty of awkward postures are eliminated by a reasonably natural physical layout (thus Maltron), and it's been suggested that there's an inherent neural delay, when alternating hands.

BTW there are other than biomechanical arguments to be made: for example, error rate. Again, Malt suggested that separation of vowels greatly reduced vowel substitution, an otherwise very common type of error.

Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #51 on: Mon, 31 July 2017, 14:08:04 »
104.32, I really like the load spread now!
Out of inspiration for the night...

Was quite a battle. Probably if you mirror it the score will improve again.

Nice work! Funny, I thought of moving the H there but thought it wouldn't help and so didn't try it. Guess I was wrong :P
Got a couple of minutes for another round
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Offline iandoug

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #52 on: Mon, 31 July 2017, 15:09:22 »
I've come to the conclusion that H is a vowel. And so belongs with the vowels. At least as far as keyboard layouts go.

Though the frequency of H in your input text is less than in English, so I guess it's not so common in Dutch as in English. Probably the whole "th" thing not so prevalent.

Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #53 on: Mon, 31 July 2017, 15:41:48 »
Meh, no cigar, seems this might be the end of the road for A-Z optimization.

Yeah, I really like the H there. Typing 'HE' is a nice roll :)
H is quite common but as common as in English indeed

Wierdly the flip is now a higher score :/
174711-0
174707-1
174709-2

Json:
* eNNe 102.72.txt (13.45 kB - downloaded 21 times.)
* eNNe 102.72 Semi Flip.txt (13.46 kB - downloaded 22 times.)
* eNNe 102.72 Full Flip.txt (13.46 kB - downloaded 22 times.)
« Last Edit: Mon, 31 July 2017, 15:58:42 by Sc0tTy »
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Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #54 on: Tue, 01 August 2017, 12:49:08 »
Gonna give it a final go tonight to otherwise I'm going to load it onto my EZ and start learning the layout.

Edit: eNNe 102.46 :)

174760-0
174763-1
* eNNe 102.46.txt (13.45 kB - downloaded 18 times.)

Tried moving the Y because typing 'you' wouldn't be nice but was unable to.

Ian, when will you be doing a new layout top list ?
« Last Edit: Tue, 01 August 2017, 15:18:24 by Sc0tTy »
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Offline iandoug

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #55 on: Tue, 01 August 2017, 16:18:35 »
Gonna give it a final go tonight to otherwise I'm going to load it onto my EZ and start learning the layout.

Okay....

Results attached. Not wild about how much the right index has to fly around though.

Ian, when will you be doing a new layout top list ?

Soon... :-)
Been busy with personal and work stuff. It takes about 3 days to run all the tests... just on Den1 scoring.
I want to modify my fork of Patrick's original to handle the ErgoLinear/matrix layouts and run the same tests on that.

As for Den2 scoring, I still have some issues with it. Have started talking to him about it.
Ideally would also like to run the tests with that scoring, once I agree with it all :-)

Have started with a PHP version of the analyzer code, basically trying to do it without copying/converting the Javascript, which is a lot of work. But it does run a lot faster than the JS.
Will only be able to use it once it produces results 100% in line with existing Patrick/Den1/Den2.

Anyway, here's the results of tonight's drag and drops...



Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #56 on: Wed, 02 August 2017, 02:24:02 »
Hehe I would help you out but my PHP is very rusty and my math is really bad :P

I see you moved quite a lot on the right side, not sure if the typing experience is actually better.
Can you upload the json?
Without checking it looks like the load on the middel finger has been decreased and moved to the index.
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Offline iandoug

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #57 on: Wed, 02 August 2017, 02:36:22 »
I see you moved quite a lot on the right side, not sure if the typing experience is actually better.
Can you upload the json?
Without checking it looks like the load on the middel finger has been decreased and moved to the index.

Yup. Right index flying around too much, despite lower score.

Layouts attached.

Offline iandoug

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #58 on: Wed, 02 August 2017, 03:16:23 »
BTW, those last layouts were based off my previous one, not your most recent.

Also, I used the list below, so layout is tailored for your input text (and Den2 scoring), scores are going to be different using different inputs and Den1 scoring. Or Patrick's scoring for that matter.
If I use your input text in the next batch of tests I'll first have to replace all the diacritic letters with the plain versions.

~/1web/keyboard-site/tools $ cat analysis.txt
 : 50125
e: 36645
a: 21031
t: 20916
n: 20083
i: 16420
r: 15738
o: 15259
s: 14306
d: 10487
l: 8756
g: 7667
u: 6725
c: 6671
m: 6655
h: 6024
p: 4991
k: 4968
w: 4907
b: 4405
v: 4258
f: 3659
j: 2190
.: 2020
z: 1221
y: 1190
,: 536
x: 382
T: 222
q: 185
[rest cut]

Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #59 on: Wed, 02 August 2017, 03:36:16 »
Yeah replacing them is fine :) Can you upload it when you've done it?

Hmm guess I'll have a look to merge both layouts tonight, though I probably wont keep the N on the index and move the S back
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Offline iandoug

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #60 on: Wed, 02 August 2017, 05:45:15 »
Yeah replacing them is fine :) Can you upload it when you've done it?

Attached. Are you sure you want to test your layout with text like
"You we big caesa there son rangers is patient can else gaming legac protest with of even obtained vulcan he tat *****." ?

Offline iandoug

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #61 on: Wed, 02 August 2017, 05:46:49 »
Mmm .. I see this forum software does not like the word for "female dog" and replaced it with ***** ....

Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #62 on: Wed, 02 August 2017, 06:37:39 »
Hahah, not sure what you mean. Do you mean if I'm sure I don't want to test my layout with etc?
If so, then yes, as that doesn't really happen in the real world :P
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Offline iandoug

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #63 on: Wed, 02 August 2017, 07:09:20 »
Hahah, not sure what you mean. Do you mean if I'm sure I don't want to test my layout with etc?
If so, then yes, as that doesn't really happen in the real world :P

No, your sample text "You we big caesa there son rangers is patient can else gaming legac protest with of even obtained vulcan he tat"
contains at least three words that I'm not even sure are English. I just pulled that random sentence from the end of your input because I saw it, but I saw other non-English words in other sentences.

Here's another:
"We cauttous she the in acquitted kenn are can slams was wiing contract tamm know calm complicattons badl resting christ feature."

etc.

Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #64 on: Wed, 02 August 2017, 13:07:43 »
Ah yeah, I replaced or removed some letters to get the word list up to my actual input stats.

174840-0
174842-1
* eNNe 102.02.txt (13.53 kB - downloaded 30 times.)

I don't understand why having such a big load in the index finger is good for the score :/
The load on the pinky is a lot higher then the middle finger now but switching it seems raises the score
« Last Edit: Wed, 02 August 2017, 13:51:51 by Sc0tTy »
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Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #65 on: Thu, 03 August 2017, 13:13:03 »
Was gonna start a new round but v2 shows lower scores and errors in console while loading. I see that Den added v3 of the KLA.

Scores are quite different in v3 too:
174916-0
« Last Edit: Thu, 03 August 2017, 13:17:00 by Sc0tTy »
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Offline iandoug

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #66 on: Thu, 03 August 2017, 13:28:19 »
Was gonna start a new round but v2 shows lower scores and errors in console while loading. I see that Den added v3 of the KLA.

Yeah he backported some changes to v2,  maybe had a typo. Haven't checked yet.
V3 has some more serious changes, I think they may change some more soon.
He's punishing the pinkies more now. Also putting a heavy load on index fingers may make more sense than making the ring fingers work more. Also depends a lot on the sequence of letters, hand alternation, etc.
That score you got is pretty low :-)


Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #67 on: Thu, 03 August 2017, 13:46:14 »
Been trying a bit but not sure whats wrong.

174920-0
174922-1
174924-2

The same finger usage for my WIP is 7.12 but when I look it up in the table its lower than the .02 layout, am I missing something?

IMHO the usage of middle finger home and upper row should have zero penalty except for same finger usage, that finger is strong. Index is indeed stronger then Ring, but having a high same finger ratio on the Index isn't that good.
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Offline iandoug

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #68 on: Thu, 03 August 2017, 14:21:49 »

The same finger usage for my WIP is 7.12 but when I look it up in the table its lower than the .02 layout, am I missing something?

Maybe :-)
Is this Den2 or Den3?
For same-finger usage, are you checking Finger Penalty or Key Presses (selected from the dropdown UNDER the table on Miscellaneous tab).
Den has seriously punished the pinkies now (in v3, more so than in v2), in keeping with his layout design philosophy.

Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #69 on: Thu, 03 August 2017, 14:47:08 »
v3 and that's finger penalty. I would assume that's the one. Finger usage is also lower than .02
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Offline iandoug

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #70 on: Thu, 03 August 2017, 15:19:01 »
v3 and that's finger penalty. I would assume that's the one. Finger usage is also lower than .02

FWIW I'm still using Den1 scoring until I fully understand and agree with the revised scoring models.

I will be doing some tests over the weekend.

Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #71 on: Thu, 03 August 2017, 16:00:32 »
v3 and that's finger penalty. I would assume that's the one. Finger usage is also lower than .02

FWIW I'm still using Den1 scoring until I fully understand and agree with the revised scoring models.

I will be doing some tests over the weekend.

Okay, haven't looked at that for a while. Are you using your mirror or Den's (there are some minor differences right)?

Not sure why Den changed stuff for his v2 but don't know if we should be using that one anymore...
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Offline iandoug

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #72 on: Thu, 03 August 2017, 16:21:16 »

Okay, haven't looked at that for a while. Are you using your mirror or Den's (there are some minor differences right)?

Not sure why Den changed stuff for his v2 but don't know if we should be using that one anymore...

I use a local copy which should be the same as my mirror (which SHOULD be essentially the same as Den1... I didn't change any scoring algorithms, just the way the results are presented.)

Results for matching keyboards (eg MTGap, Colemak, etc) seem the same for a quick test with Alice:
http://kla.keyboard-design.com
http://shenafu.com/code/keyboard/Keyboard%20Layout%20Analyzer.html#/main

I have different graphics and less layouts so should run slightly quicker.

If I understood his readme correctly, he made v2 "more correct".

Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #73 on: Fri, 04 August 2017, 03:58:59 »
If I understood his readme correctly, he made v2 "more correct".

Only thing I read on his forum post is this: removed redundant penalty for shifts/modifiers (also removed from v2)
Is that the readme you are referring to?
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Offline iandoug

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #74 on: Fri, 04 August 2017, 05:34:31 »
If I understood his readme correctly, he made v2 "more correct".

Only thing I read on his forum post is this: removed redundant penalty for shifts/modifiers (also removed from v2)
Is that the readme you are referring to?

Yes. He may have made other changes and forgot to mention them :-)

Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #75 on: Fri, 04 August 2017, 06:39:23 »
Yes. He may have made other changes and forgot to mention them :-)

Ah okay. I guess I'll do a rerun on all 3 versions. I don't pinky usage on the home row.
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Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #76 on: Fri, 04 August 2017, 10:07:27 »
Reran on all versions:

v1


v2
174973-1

v3
174975-2

I guess Den made more changes to v3, its different to the same run as yesterday and now.
And 102.46 has a better score than 102.02, which imho is how is should.
Not sure what changed though as I didn't see a post.
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Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #77 on: Fri, 04 August 2017, 13:28:47 »
Did a rerun of a bunch of layouts on the v3 and I found that 104.35 was the best.

Then started working on a new layout and got this one:
174996-0
174998-1
* eNNe 97.72.txt (13.44 kB - downloaded 34 times.)

After putting it in my Excel I must say i quite like the new v3, the result is very close to what I feel is right for my usage :)
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Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #78 on: Fri, 04 August 2017, 14:18:04 »
There is still a bug in the same finger usage calculation though:

175017-0
175019-1
175021-2
175023-3

Actual values are the same but summary is not...
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Offline iandoug

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #79 on: Fri, 04 August 2017, 14:44:49 »
There is still a bug in the same finger usage calculation though:
Actual values are the same but summary is not...

Mmm... I also noticed some anomalies with same-finger summaries tonight on Den3.
I have pointed him to this thread, not sure if he is following, but you should maybe point this out to him...

Your scores are getting low... :)

Cheers, Ian

Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #80 on: Mon, 07 August 2017, 04:48:45 »
Yeah thanks :)

Tried to lower it but no cigar. Tried putting DNSR on the right home row, but couldn't get the finger usage down.
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Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #81 on: Tue, 08 August 2017, 02:32:59 »
Guess 97.72 might be it, couldn't lower it again.

97.48 :D
175288-0

Moved the H to the index and now both "IK" (most common word in dutch) and "HE" are good rolls :)
Haven't been able to make the right hand side any better though.
« Last Edit: Tue, 08 August 2017, 03:09:45 by Sc0tTy »
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Offline iandoug

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #82 on: Tue, 08 August 2017, 05:31:43 »
Moved the H to the index and now both "IK" (most common word in dutch) and "HE" are good rolls :)
Haven't been able to make the right hand side any better though.

Few points improvement.

Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #83 on: Tue, 08 August 2017, 15:02:18 »
Got it quit a bit lower :)

175333-0
175331-1
* eNNe 96.88.txt (13.53 kB - downloaded 26 times.)

PS you should use the "inline full image option"
« Last Edit: Tue, 08 August 2017, 15:04:07 by Sc0tTy »
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Offline iandoug

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #84 on: Tue, 08 August 2017, 16:36:16 »
Got it quit a bit lower :)
PS you should use the "inline full image option"

Congrats. That X/Z was bothering me but didn't think of swapping sides. I think with different input text, it would be better to swap Z and -, certainly in English (and programming) dash/hyphen gets used more than Z. Same with '" and Q.

I don't use inline images because I thought I first had to upload them somewhere.  But seems not. Will try next time.
BTW I also put C at bottom in attempt to be a little ctrl-z/x/c/v friendly. You now have both X and C that can move down. V will be a problem.. :-). Maybe put right Crtl on thumb next to Y, then Ctrl V/C/X are doable on one hand. (and similarly on left, then ctrl A and Z are easy.

Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #85 on: Wed, 09 August 2017, 03:59:38 »
Ahh was wondering why you swapped the B and C. Yeah I'm probably going to bind copy/paste keys so don't really need that I think.

Yeah dash and quote get used more then Z and Q. Maybe I need to update the word list so that we can actually put those keys on better spots while not losing score.

On a side-note.
Do you know of any articles/research into putting the home pinky keys on the bottom row (where the Z and / are on qwerty)?
The pinkys are a lot shorter and on columnar layouts, like the TEK and ErgoDox, that might be a much better place.
When I put my pinky's there it feels a lot more natural.
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Offline iandoug

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #86 on: Wed, 09 August 2017, 04:29:38 »
Do you know of any articles/research into putting the home pinky keys on the bottom row (where the Z and / are on qwerty)?
The pinkys are a lot shorter and on columnar layouts, like the TEK and ErgoDox, that might be a much better place.
When I put my pinky's there it feels a lot more natural.

Haven't seen anything like that, but your point is valid (especially in my case, with my short pinkies (pics somewhere on Den's site).
It is similar to your idea of putting what are traditional "pinky" keys on ring and middle in eNNe... in truth I actually use my ring for those outside keys (on MS Ergo Natural keyboard), because of short pinkies.

Downside is that for pinky then to move to top two rows is increased distance, which will affect score.

So what PROBABLY should happen is that the form factor should take it into account, and lower the entire pinky columns by one unit or so.
Think I must see if I can build that into the ErgoLinear layout. The lack of stagger in ErgoLinear bothers me, but when I tried it long ago on early Programmer's Keyboard layouts, it just looked "messy", and I ended up with a regular grid.

I was actually browsing online for books on "keyboard design" and only found one short book from around 1993, no longer in print.

There's probably more "useful" info to be had by doing searches on the Patent websites... there's a LOT of patents on keyboards, most of which it seems never made it to production. So just wasted money by inventor, and block against people trying to improve. Also US patent system seems oblivious to prior art and grants patents on 'obvious' things. Which is why I decided against trying to patent either ErgoLinear or Seelpy (which is actually a "fresh" idea in keyboard design).

eg I took this one
https://www.google.es/patents/US3929216
and improved it (at least as far as KLA is concerned).
Here's scoring on Alice (Den 1), against top layouts in same form factor:



 But the text provides useful info, and there's a long list of other patents at the bottom which may provide further ideas....


Offline iandoug

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #87 on: Wed, 09 August 2017, 04:48:16 »
On a side-note.
Do you know of any articles/research into putting the home pinky keys on the bottom row (where the Z and / are on qwerty)?

Have you see MK-Type V2.Staggerfix layout?

http://kla.keyboard-design.com/#/config

Under ANSI section.

Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #88 on: Wed, 09 August 2017, 06:38:55 »
Ah yeah, but I guess thats not really research or an article:)
Was hoping to find some pro's/con's and such.

Is does remind me that I can change the default home key for the pink's though :)

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Offline iandoug

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #89 on: Wed, 09 August 2017, 06:49:47 »
Ah yeah, but I guess thats not really research or an article:)
Was hoping to find some pro's/con's and such.

I trust you read both my posts above.

Anyway after many failures, we have a new working lightbulb.

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Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #90 on: Wed, 09 August 2017, 07:13:37 »
Whups, you trusted wrong missed that one :P


Haven't seen anything like that, but your point is valid (especially in my case, with my short pinkies (pics somewhere on Den's site).
It is similar to your idea of putting what are traditional "pinky" keys on ring and middle in eNNe... in truth I actually use my ring for those outside keys (on MS Ergo Natural keyboard), because of short pinkies.

Downside is that for pinky then to move to top two rows is increased distance, which will affect score.

So what PROBABLY should happen is that the form factor should take it into account, and lower the entire pinky columns by one unit or so.
Think I must see if I can build that into the ErgoLinear layout. The lack of stagger in ErgoLinear bothers me, but when I tried it long ago on early Programmer's Keyboard layouts, it just looked "messy", and I ended up with a regular grid.

Yeah thats exactly what I was thinking!
The "normal top row" would be a bit harder to reach indeed but I'd just put something with low usage there.
I'd have to move PgUp/Dn on the ErgoDox though. On my TEK I'd probably just switch the middle and lower row for the pinky.

Same goes for all the keys on the right, ctrl etc.

I use my middle and index fingers for the TAB and key above as you can see in the layout.


I was actually browsing online for books on "keyboard design" and only found one short book from around 1993, no longer in print.

There's probably more "useful" info to be had by doing searches on the Patent websites... there's a LOT of patents on keyboards, most of which it seems never made it to production. So just wasted money by inventor, and block against people trying to improve. Also US patent system seems oblivious to prior art and grants patents on 'obvious' things. Which is why I decided against trying to patent either ErgoLinear or Seelpy (which is actually a "fresh" idea in keyboard design).

eg I took this one
https://www.google.es/patents/US3929216
and improved it (at least as far as KLA is concerned).
Here's scoring on Alice (Den 1), against top layouts in same form factor:

(Attachment Link)

But the text provides useful info, and there's a long list of other patents at the bottom which may provide further ideas....


I'll have a look tonight :)


Anyway after many failures, we have a new working lightbulb.

(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)

Nice :)
That Y is on a bad position I think, the most used word with that letter is probably 'YOU' which would be bad like that :P
1x ErgoDox EZ
2x Truly Ergonomic Keyboard 229
2x Kinesis Freestyle V3-VIP
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Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #91 on: Wed, 09 August 2017, 14:04:20 »
Updated the finger usage on your 96.40 to match the actual finger and then made a pinky mod.

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Edit: One of thing I already noticed is that my thumb now naturally lands on the inner thumb keys. Before it was a tiny stretch or I'd only tap it partially.
« Last Edit: Wed, 09 August 2017, 14:12:21 by Sc0tTy »
1x ErgoDox EZ
2x Truly Ergonomic Keyboard 229
2x Kinesis Freestyle V3-VIP
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Offline iandoug

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #92 on: Wed, 09 August 2017, 15:17:24 »
Updated the finger usage on your 96.40 to match the actual finger and then made a pinky mod.

Bit puzzled as to why your scores and my scores are slightly different ... I noticed this morning when I was playing with your 96.88, I got 96.89 (or vice versa) and now you're getting 96.42 where I had 96.40.
Did you change your input file perhaps?
OS and browser? I'm using Firefox on Linux.

Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #93 on: Wed, 09 August 2017, 15:40:48 »
Updated the finger usage on your 96.40 to match the actual finger and then made a pinky mod.

Bit puzzled as to why your scores and my scores are slightly different ... I noticed this morning when I was playing with your 96.88, I got 96.89 (or vice versa) and now you're getting 96.42 where I had 96.40.
Did you change your input file perhaps?
OS and browser? I'm using Firefox on Linux.

Nope I actually gos 96.39 when I ran your JSON, I changed some key-finger settings though and that's why its .42.

Oddly when I switch F/Z my score gets worse but when I switch B/C for example there is no change ;/
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Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #94 on: Wed, 09 August 2017, 16:16:04 »
Have been trying to optimize the layout but couldn't get it lower, but I'm very happy with it as is.
So added all of the miscellaneous keys like pgup/pgdn to the P layout.

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* eNNe 96.40PM.txt (13.6 kB - downloaded 45 times.)

Guess I'll start moving the modifier and misc keys around now.

Think this might be is unless you have another light bulb moment :P

1x ErgoDox EZ
2x Truly Ergonomic Keyboard 229
2x Kinesis Freestyle V3-VIP
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Offline iandoug

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #95 on: Thu, 10 August 2017, 15:42:46 »
Do you know of any articles/research into putting the home pinky keys on the bottom row (where the Z and / are on qwerty)?

Looking at staggering the ErgoLinear layout.

Question is, how much is enough/correct?

Looking at ErgoDox, it appears middle finger row is shifted around 12% relative to index and ring.

Do you find that enough/too much/too little? (Hello Goldilocks)

And your pinky going down one whole row... how is that?

Thanks, Ian

Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #96 on: Wed, 23 August 2017, 14:10:57 »
Sorry for the very late response but my laptop died and didn't have an opportunity at work to check GH... Finally got a new laptop today :D

Anyway...

The finger placement feels "right" but I haven't typed much on the keyboard since then so I cannot give you any more feedback on it, yet.
My main concern now, is reaching some other keys might have a bigger penalty, I'll get back to you on that :)
1x ErgoDox EZ
2x Truly Ergonomic Keyboard 229
2x Kinesis Freestyle V3-VIP
2x Bamboo Pen & Touch (Mouse replacement)
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Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: Yet another keyboard layout: eNNe
« Reply #97 on: Mon, 04 September 2017, 16:02:59 »
So did all my mods on the eNNe layout:
- P: Pinky mod
- M: Added Moddifiers
- A: Arrowcluster now on the spot I want it
- T: Thumbcluster Flip, where it will actually be in real life
- S: Shifts to Pinkies
- F: Flipped
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And I have a 113.33 layout that I'm quite happy with (still need to flip it):
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Any thoughts ?

Won't keep that Enter there, will probably move it to the big inner column or something.
« Last Edit: Mon, 04 September 2017, 16:04:48 by Sc0tTy »
1x ErgoDox EZ
2x Truly Ergonomic Keyboard 229
2x Kinesis Freestyle V3-VIP
2x Bamboo Pen & Touch (Mouse replacement)
2x Salli Swing
1x Herman Miller Aeron