Author Topic: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?  (Read 4534 times)

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Offline typo

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O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« on: Thu, 05 July 2018, 04:49:26 »
Since it has Cherry stems will they accomplish what they are supposed to? Mainly softer landing because it is impossible not to bottom this out. I do not wish to get all new domes though. BTW, if it does work can I obtain the correct Rings at Home Depot? It would be great if this damped it. I have all GMK caps. I did not know if that affects the ability to fit them. Or something else easy that can improve the landing? Thanks

Offline _PixelNinja

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 05 July 2018, 05:14:16 »
I'm afraid you will not achieve the desired effect with O-rings on Topre x MX stems, for the reasons explained in this great post by SpiceBar.

Offline Riverman

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 05 July 2018, 11:48:13 »
Is the landing too hard?  Even though Topre keyboards feel like they have a harder landing than a Cherry MX keyboard with o-rings, I still find Topre boards to be less fatiguing.  They've never caused pain in my fingertips, which I can't always say about MX keyboards or cheap rubber dome keyboards.

Offline Acereconkeys

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 05 July 2018, 11:56:37 »
One thing you can do that helped me better enjoy my realforce RGB was install hypersphere rings. I got em on Ebay a while back. They are rather rather pricy unfortunately but they're really something else when it comes to sound/feel of the board for me i absolutely love em.
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Offline zslane

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 05 July 2018, 12:12:23 »
The gentle thock of a Topre dome bottoming out is a wonderful sound. Why would anyone want to muffle it further?

Now, silencing the upstroke clatter is another matter entirely, and I won't use a Topre-style board without silencing rings installed. I've installed them myself in four Realforce RGBs and three NovaTouches. It is a tedious process, but absolutely necessary in my view. You can get inexpensive silencing rings that do a great job from KBDfans.

Offline Acereconkeys

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 05 July 2018, 12:13:14 »
The gentle thock of a Topre dome bottoming out is a wonderful sound. Why would anyone want to muffle it further?

Now, silencing the upstroke clatter is another matter entirely, and I won't use a Topre-style board without silencing rings installed. I've installed them myself in four Realforce RGBs and three NovaTouches. It is a tedious process, but absolutely necessary in my view. You can get inexpensive silencing rings that do a great job from KBDfans.

I remember reading somewhere when I was making the decision for my board which to buy that those can get snagged/caught on the stroke and hurt keyfeel? Have you experienced along those lines with yours?
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Offline zslane

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 05 July 2018, 12:16:34 »
Actually, no. I've never experienced any problems with them. In fact, I've not heard anyone having such issues, though I have heard of people having those issues with Hypersphere rings because they fit more loosely on the stem.

Offline Acereconkeys

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 05 July 2018, 12:17:44 »
Oh awesome. So yes back on track to OP's question these rings won't affect the downstroke feel but they'll dampen the upstroke which is really nice.

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Offline typo

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 05 July 2018, 17:36:21 »
Well darn. Those are much too difficult for me to install. I was hoping because they are MX stems you can just use O-rings on top of them as people do with MX switches. Bottoming out does not cause me any pain it is just more comfortable to "float". Like a MX clear is so stiff you do not need to push it to the bottom. Topre by it's very nature will travel to the bottom after the dome collapses. You would have to have great skill to control that. I figured with MX stems this would be much easier. OH well. Honestly it is fine the way it is. topre, quite frankly is like Edamame if you know what I mean. I have a number of RealForce and HHKB boards so I am a fan of them. Perhaps after all I do not want to spoil that feeling. The upstroke clack does not bother me. Nor does the downstroke bottom out. I was just trying to get a softer landing, not noise related. However it is not the noise that bothers me I just wish they landed softer. Although they do in fact land softer than most Cherry switches. Since this is such a big deal to do I will have to skip it and it does not really address my issue anyhow, just noise. Nice thought of mine but I did not realize what it entails. I am not a putz, I am elderly and disabled. It does not really mater that I can't do it anyways though because it will most likely not achieve what I thought it would. I am glad you guy's let me know before I took it apart to have springs all over and no more favorite keyboard. I have pieces of several custom GMK sets on it and the thicker caps give a nce distinct feel to begin with. I should probably just be happy with that. Mine does sound much better than a stock one and it most certainly does Thwack. Furthermore I wonder if doing this to this particular board will mess up the adjustable actuation point? Regardless, after seeing what it entails, probably does not do what I wish I figure I better leave well enough alone. I will say, only with the GMK caps this is my favorite Topre even though it has received it's share of bashing. In fact it was originally destined to be Topre's "showcase" board outside of Japan until it was not so wel received. With the thicker caps and the underglow I think it is certainly one of the nicest boards just as it stands. Of course YMMV. you may find a 87U or something to be much more to your liking. Even though, IMO it is the same darn thing less some keys. I think the thicker caps already dampen the upstroke so I may have achieved that already which may also in fact be what improved upon the stock caps. I do appreciate everyone's input but it looks like I am barking up the wrong tree here.

Offline ag36

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 05 July 2018, 17:42:25 »
Personally speaking, o-rings are dirt cheap so maybe just try? Unfortunately type-s is not available with cherry stems.
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Offline typo

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 05 July 2018, 20:29:53 »
Nah, the issue is I am unable to take it all apart. I looked at the other thread and did not realize how involved it is. Unless, as I thought that does not apply to the Cherry stems? I always just put a O-ring right over the Cherry stem. No need to remove Cup Rubber and springs. Perhaps it is different with Cherry stems because this is still a Topre and not a Cherry? I couldn't get into something that involved at this point. I mean removing the Cup Rubber, plate and springs just to put on O-rings. Unless it works like a Cherry board and not Topre? I am guessing this is the other way around. Have to take apart the entire thing? As I mentioned the better key caps damp it quite a bit to begin with. I do not think it can be stopped from bottoming out now after what I have read. If anything, just modify the upstroke which is already fine with me. I am concerned with the down stroke. Easy to do to Cherry but not sure about this "hybrid" board. I still dig this board most of anything right now. I was just trying to pad the landing. Apparently it cannot be done though. The sound certainly does not matter to me. If the O-rings go on like a Cherry board maybe I can do it but the thought of springs flying everywhere....

Offline Rumblehotep

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 05 July 2018, 21:38:33 »
The gentle thock of a Topre dome bottoming out is a wonderful sound. Why would anyone want to muffle it further?

Now, silencing the upstroke clatter is another matter entirely, and I won't use a Topre-style board without silencing rings installed. I've installed them myself in four Realforce RGBs and three NovaTouches. It is a tedious process, but absolutely necessary in my view. You can get inexpensive silencing rings that do a great job from KBDfans.

Given your enthusiasm for mx slider topre boards, I would like to know your opinion on GMK vs. SA caps for thocc

Offline typo

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #12 on: Sat, 07 July 2018, 04:54:50 »
Well, you are asking the right guy(even though you were not asking me)! I ultimately went with a mashup of 5 sets of GMK because my feeling is they really amplify the thock in a nice way. See, that is why I was saying the last thing I want to do is silence the upstroke. Simply the GMK's, no O-rings will make the upstroke much nicer IMO. I wanted to O-ring not to silence but rather to soften landing. This feels much heavier than 45g but then again it is not painful at all. I am just foregoing O-rings for now.  I Achieved much of it just with the key caps. No one else is here so noise is not an issue. I swear though you could hear this 30 feet away. To me it sounds freakin' awesome.

The SA while also being less costly to consider has a thinner sound on this board. it is not as robust, full bodied and authoritative. Not a ping by any means but I do not like the SA as much. Honestly, they are close but the GMK sounds like you are doing some kind of Jujitsu tapping holes in solid wood. If noise is an issue forget this right now. It is easily louder than a Model M and certainly MX blue. It is not Hollow like that though. The little click on Blues. It is a solid sound. Like I just said my best analogy is rapping on hard wood. The stock keys are indeed quite good but not GMK. Plus you will do what, DSA? I vastly prefer the cupped Cherry molds. If you are going to do it, just do it right and say F the money.

People have insulted this board saying it is not a real Topre. BS. The President of Topre told me it was supposed to be their current Flagship board outside of JDM. He said unfortunately it was accepted to be but a novelty due to RGB. They misjudged how our group of folks thinks. Do not let that deter you if you want one. The adjustable actuation for instance is state of the art technology. You can map and program every single key independently. The plate and everything is not the same as 104UB. He told me off the record whereas the 104UB or 87U is good for 35k to 75k keystrokes they are speculating some keys on this may exceed one Million key strokes! It was better not worse. It was just not universally received. The point is, absolutely worthy of the GMK's. Just decide what you want and can get.

To get parts of 5 sets including many keys I did not need this keyboard is well over a grand to me. It is my daily driver.  So I am just pointing out IMO do not let anyone tell you it is not worth the key caps. Quite frankly the stock ones are pretty darn good. I vastly prefer just the underglow. It is too bright on 1 though, I need to put a resistor. I wanted a cord but not sure what all that takes. For a board like this not to come with a braided cord was the only mistake I see. The Cup Rubber has a much nicer crush feel than 104UB because it is a different, stronger material they informed me. Indeed it is more pronounced at collapse. The reason I am mentioning this is because the Cup Rubber plus slider are what give this board a more robust sound than the 104UB. Some say it does not sound like a Topre. It doesn't in fact. It sounds all the much better. Put on the GMK's and you have a real noise maker. Nice sounds. So anyways, up to you but I explained two reasons I prefer GMK on it. Sound and feel. Plus when they get shiny with that profile it is lovely. I hope that helps! OH, btw nice Kitty!

As for Zslane, I take it you too feel Novatouch and RGB are indeed real Topre boards. It is not even like this is a cheap board. Completely stock it is amongst their most expensive offerings. Amazon is authorized to sell it for $239 but anywhere else including Elite Keyboards it must sell for $279 per Topre. I would not call this a "cheap" board in price or quality. Quite frankly it is evident that it is better quality than the 104UB IMO.  Certainly worth making upgrades, but also quite competent stock. They did not skimp on the stock Key Caps by any means.

Offline zslane

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 07 July 2018, 11:34:09 »
The gentle thock of a Topre dome bottoming out is a wonderful sound. Why would anyone want to muffle it further?

Now, silencing the upstroke clatter is another matter entirely, and I won't use a Topre-style board without silencing rings installed. I've installed them myself in four Realforce RGBs and three NovaTouches. It is a tedious process, but absolutely necessary in my view. You can get inexpensive silencing rings that do a great job from KBDfans.

Given your enthusiasm for mx slider topre boards, I would like to know your opinion on GMK vs. SA caps for thocc

I don't use GMK keycaps (or cylindrical keycaps period), so I can't comment on them. But I have SA on all my Topre-based boards and I love them. The thock sound is quite satisfying with SA.

Quite frankly it is evident that it is better quality than the 104UB IMO.  Certainly worth making upgrades, but also quite competent stock. They did not skimp on the stock Key Caps by any means.

I agree that both the RGB and the NovaTouch are high-end boards, no question. However, I don't feel that the Realforce RGB case is nearly as solid and robust as the standard 104U case. Its only virtue, IMO, is that it is a 108 rather than a 104. And as for the stock Topre keycaps, well, I don't ever use stock keycaps (on any board) so their quality, or lack thereof, is sort of a non-issue for me.

Offline Polymer

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 07 July 2018, 19:59:06 »
People have insulted this board saying it is not a real Topre. BS. The President of Topre told me it was supposed to be their current Flagship board outside of JDM. He said unfortunately it was accepted to be but a novelty due to RGB. They misjudged how our group of folks thinks. Do not let that deter you if you want one. The adjustable actuation for instance is state of the art technology. You can map and program every single key independently. The plate and everything is not the same as 104UB. He told me off the record whereas the 104UB or 87U is good for 35k to 75k keystrokes they are speculating some keys on this may exceed one Million key strokes! It was better not worse. It was just not universally received. The point is, absolutely worthy of the GMK's. Just decide what you want and can get.

I call BS on this for so many reasons.  First off, the reason people dislike Topre RGB is because it sounds terrible compared to a normal Topre...and that has to do w/ the MX stems on it rather than their normal ones.  Silencing the Topre RGB makes it sound a million times better.  The rest of the board is basically the same...You must have heard or typed that wrong because there is no way the normal RFs are rated at 75k keystrokes...They've been talking 50 million so what you might be thinking is 35 million - 75 million and I can only guess you mean the new ones (It is really just the rubber that is the failing part) is over 100 million...

Offline typo

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 07 July 2018, 20:01:25 »
Honestly there are better cases than both of them. Or perceived. They do the job. I was just saying, right out of the box this is most certainly a $270 board. I do not use stock caps either but vastly prefer the cylindrical ones. Once they are all shiny...Yum. I felt they had a better sound too but that is probably subjective. Both SA and GMK are some of the finest mass produced caps IMO. Whichever you prefer I guess. I do not want the O-rings now. I enjoy the upstroke sound, especially if I "jump off of it". I thought maybe they would cushion the ride which was all that this was about. Since they don't I'll pass on them. That is a lot of work. I commend you on that.

Offline Polymer

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 08 July 2018, 05:34:38 »
Well definitely the board is a quality board...I think the issue is that with the MX/Topre Stem, it doesn't sound great (not the stock keycaps anyways). 

But when silenced it sounds better...and of course different keycaps will change how it sounds as well...

I think anyone that thinks the Topre RGB is a cheap board is just fooling themselves (as you said it is a quality board) but out of the box it just isn't in the same ballpark as their standard Topre as far as sound/feel...The R2 looks like it'll be better...

That said, if you want to use MX keycaps, I think it is a fantastic option...I do think they need to consider making a silent version though because as it stands now it just sounds terrible out of the box...It is just the nature of the MX keycaps on the stems..Novatouch keyboards had the same issue...

Offline typo

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 08 July 2018, 07:24:47 »
R2, same case as RGB, worse keys, only JDM. Much rather put key caps on RGB but not interested in silencers since it sounds great with GMK.
I was just speaking of people that bashed it elsewhere. They do not know what they are talking about. Price would be too high with GMK out of the box but makes for a pretty nice board if you put it together. Stock the "u" series cases are better maybe but now the R2 has the RGB case. Plus R2 is Topre stems only so no GMK anyways,

Offline Polymer

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 09 July 2018, 07:37:59 »
Why are the keys worse?  Realforce stock Dye Subbed PBT keycaps are fantastic...they might be one of, if not the best stock keycaps out there..If you're finding going to GMK is a significant upgrade then their stock DS ABS, by that very comparison, must not be great whereas the stock Dye Subbbed PBT are on par with GMK...I actually prefer them to GMKs...

Offline Acereconkeys

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 09 July 2018, 11:43:56 »
Why are the keys worse?  Realforce stock Dye Subbed PBT keycaps are fantastic...they might be one of, if not the best stock keycaps out there..If you're finding going to GMK is a significant upgrade then their stock DS ABS, by that very comparison, must not be great whereas the stock Dye Subbbed PBT are on par with GMK...I actually prefer them to GMKs...

Realforce rgb does not come stock with Dye Subbed PBT. It comes with shrinethrough doubleshot abs keycaps.
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Offline Acereconkeys

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 09 July 2018, 11:45:44 »
Well definitely the board is a quality board...I think the issue is that with the MX/Topre Stem, it doesn't sound great (not the stock keycaps anyways). 

But when silenced it sounds better...and of course different keycaps will change how it sounds as well...

I think anyone that thinks the Topre RGB is a cheap board is just fooling themselves (as you said it is a quality board) but out of the box it just isn't in the same ballpark as their standard Topre as far as sound/feel...The R2 looks like it'll be better...

That said, if you want to use MX keycaps, I think it is a fantastic option...I do think they need to consider making a silent version though because as it stands now it just sounds terrible out of the box...It is just the nature of the MX keycaps on the stems..Novatouch keyboards had the same issue...

The bad sound on realforce RGB does not come from the slider actually. It comes from the fact that the slider housing has to be made differently to account for the presence of the switch LED. That's what hits and creates the noise.
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Offline Polymer

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 09 July 2018, 18:56:12 »
Realforce rgb does not come stock with Dye Subbed PBT. It comes with shrinethrough doubleshot abs keycaps.

The bad sound on realforce RGB does not come from the slider actually. It comes from the fact that the slider housing has to be made differently to account for the presence of the switch LED. That's what hits and creates the noise.

Did you read the thread?  He's referring to the R2...We've been talking about the RGB and changing out the keycaps so if you read even half the thread you'd know I couldn't be referring to the RGB as having Dye Subs when we've clearly talked about it having DS ABS. 

It could be the housing...but it sounds similar to a novatouch which had that same jinkly sound (which is still somewhat there after you silence them)...maybe the housing for those were made with the same type of plastic?  Could be...Seems like this would be an easy fix though...But to me the way these tend to sound best are a combination of silencing and better keycaps..

In general, I'm surprised the RGB got released as it was...for any Topre lover, the sound, which plays a bit part, was completely destroyed.  Looking forward to the R2.

« Last Edit: Mon, 09 July 2018, 19:18:35 by Polymer »

Offline Acereconkeys

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 09 July 2018, 21:15:37 »
Realforce rgb does not come stock with Dye Subbed PBT. It comes with shrinethrough doubleshot abs keycaps.

The bad sound on realforce RGB does not come from the slider actually. It comes from the fact that the slider housing has to be made differently to account for the presence of the switch LED. That's what hits and creates the noise.

Did you read the thread?  He's referring to the R2...We've been talking about the RGB and changing out the keycaps so if you read even half the thread you'd know I couldn't be referring to the RGB as having Dye Subs when we've clearly talked about it having DS ABS. 

It could be the housing...but it sounds similar to a novatouch which had that same jinkly sound (which is still somewhat there after you silence them)...maybe the housing for those were made with the same type of plastic?  Could be...Seems like this would be an easy fix though...But to me the way these tend to sound best are a combination of silencing and better keycaps..

In general, I'm surprised the RGB got released as it was...for any Topre lover, the sound, which plays a bit part, was completely destroyed.  Looking forward to the R2.

Ah apologies I misread your comment on the caps.

The housing noise is because the realforce rgb has to have space for the leds to diffuse light out and to be placed beneath the switch. This hole/less material is what creates the weird upstroke noise.
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Offline Polymer

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 10 July 2018, 01:26:00 »
That's why the slider was shaped differently so the LED fits?  That doesn't mean they've done anything with the housing other than make it clear.  If you look at it, they didn't make room on the housing they changed the slider so the led can fit...It also doesn't explain why the novatouch sounds very similar....

And also if you novatouch your hhkb/realforce you still get some of those same sounds although slightly different...They do not sound the same as the stock Topre sliders, which according to what you've said they should...

Offline typo

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 10 July 2018, 02:32:37 »
I think it is the case but just guessing. That is bad because the R2 uses the RGB case afaik. This is where Topre is headed now. Soon it may not be so special anymore. Don't know. The stock ABS DS caps to me are better than the PBT. I just prefer DS though and do not like fuzzy fonts. The GMK or SA, take your pick are better. Heck, 108 of them costs as much as the board which is not cheap to begin with. That is biased though because I do prefer DS. Only DS PBT/POM is Chinese because it is rubbish. Good ones like GMK and SA are ABS of course. I do feel the stock RGB caps are better than those on the 104UB, but again biased opinion. I believe the noise is the loose as a goose case. Which is apparently shared by the R2. That's a shame. Can replace caps, especially with MX stems but the case is a much bigger deal. I do not prefer the sound with O-rings, just thicker caps. The thread was if the O-rings would soften the landing. Honestly it is not bad though. Topre never hurt me or anything. The fact they got the middle actuation right where it crushes impresses me. So that does make the landing softer if I pay attention to what I am doing.

Offline Polymer

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 10 July 2018, 04:07:01 »
The R2 sounds different so that isn't it. 

Fuzzy Fonts?  The RF font is NOT fuzzy..it is super clean, that's part of the reason why the keycaps are so good.  They're not very thick but they're incredibly solid and the dye sub is fantastic. 

Leopold makes a very good set of DS PBT...I think they're better than GMK. 

And yes, if you prefer DS ABS, nothing wrong w/ that...but if you can't recognize that the RF Keycaps are of really high quality, I don't know what else to tell you except you'd be wrong.  You can have a personal preference not to like them, but the quality is undeniable. 

Offline zslane

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Re: O-Rings on Realforce RGB?
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 10 July 2018, 11:59:13 »
The RGB/R2 case is a step down from the U cases, IMO. All my RGB cases creak if you put any tortional tension on them, and they are thinner and less solid. And while the RGB and R2 cases may be identical in design, the one thing that makes the R2 case better than the RGB case is that it comes in white.