[GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F

[consolation]

No links shared here? 

Your wish is my command. Article from Pop Mechanic 201803

[atectatifern]

Your wish is my command. Article from Pop Mechanic 201803

Thanks!

[Ellipse]

Nice meeting everyone yesterday at the NJ Meetup!

To hear how the keyboards sound please check out the YouTube videos I posted:  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsi-1PcnCT3hw_RwcFzBnuw/videos

[HoffmanMyster]

No links shared here? 

Your wish is my command. Article from Pop Mechanic 201803

Thanks much! 

[Lagomorph]

Found a couple of pictures from the meet-up (not mine; I'll remove them if anyone wants).

From the Deskthority thread :



From the Reddit thread:



 

[joey]

Wish I had enough money to just buy all the coloured cases!

[vewy_nice]

Wish I had enough money to just buy all the coloured cases!

I think I'm going to buy an F77 case from the 2nd round to try and make a plate to put Cherry switches in it, because I'm a heathen, obviously...

I'll buy a buckling F77, too... I want to get the F66 AND F77 in this round, but I just don't have enough justification...

And is it just the lighting, or does it look like those black blanks have a lot of shine? Are they prototypes? 
That black on black ultra compact is the same spec I am getting... I'm hyped.

[darkcruix]

I'd like to see the different keycaps once they are created. The process is not yet complete to get pictures of fully labeled PBT keys in the right colors, but I am looking forward to see them once the dye-sub is started.
I ordered the full variation

• Apple/Mac Command key Options (4 keys)
• Industrial SSK Keys (12 keys in blue)
• HHKB (6 keys)

[stoic-lemon]

What colour is that brownish one in the middle of the second pic there?

[Giorgio]

Wish I had enough money to just buy all the coloured cases!

I think I'm going to buy an F77 case from the 2nd round to try and make a plate to put Cherry switches in it, because I'm a heathen, obviously...

I'll buy a buckling F77, too... I want to get the F66 AND F77 in this round, but I just don't have enough justification...

And is it just the lighting, or does it look like those black blanks have a lot of shine? Are they prototypes? 
That black on black ultra compact is the same spec I am getting... I'm hyped.

The plate is curved, so the height of the switch will influence the spacing of the keys, thus possibly leading to an incorrect spacing. (You should measure the curvature and proceed from there). This will work only for uniform height keys, and will be optimized only for those keys that you account for in the design process.

[sixdeuces]

What colour is that brownish one in the middle of the second pic there?

I believe that's industrial gray.

[darkcruix]

Top to bottom

• Black
  Standard Beige
  Industrial Grey

[SixtyLife]

Top to bottom

• Black
  Standard Beige
  Industrial Grey

its top to bottom (ignoring the compact f62 on the right):
Black
Industrial Grey
Cerakote (H152Q)

the bottom one is a restored og kish that was being compared against ellipse's f62

[vewy_nice]

Wish I had enough money to just buy all the coloured cases!

I think I'm going to buy an F77 case from the 2nd round to try and make a plate to put Cherry switches in it, because I'm a heathen, obviously...

I'll buy a buckling F77, too... I want to get the F66 AND F77 in this round, but I just don't have enough justification...

And is it just the lighting, or does it look like those black blanks have a lot of shine? Are they prototypes? 
That black on black ultra compact is the same spec I am getting... I'm hyped.

The plate is curved, so the height of the switch will influence the spacing of the keys, thus possibly leading to an incorrect spacing. (You should measure the curvature and proceed from there). This will work only for uniform height keys, and will be optimized only for those keys that you account for in the design process.

The buckling spring plate is curved... But the case is flat... 
I've got a milling machine, and balls of steel. It'll be a fun project.

[Giorgio]

Wish I had enough money to just buy all the coloured cases!

I think I'm going to buy an F77 case from the 2nd round to try and make a plate to put Cherry switches in it, because I'm a heathen, obviously...

I'll buy a buckling F77, too... I want to get the F66 AND F77 in this round, but I just don't have enough justification...

And is it just the lighting, or does it look like those black blanks have a lot of shine? Are they prototypes? 
That black on black ultra compact is the same spec I am getting... I'm hyped.

The plate is curved, so the height of the switch will influence the spacing of the keys, thus possibly leading to an incorrect spacing. (You should measure the curvature and proceed from there). This will work only for uniform height keys, and will be optimized only for those keys that you account for in the design process.

The buckling spring plate is curved... But the case is flat... 
I've got a milling machine, and balls of steel. It'll be a fun project.

The internal border of the case has the same curvature of the plate - at least in some model f xt that I've seen. I don't know about this case...

[Petch]

Wish I had enough money to just buy all the coloured cases!

I think I'm going to buy an F77 case from the 2nd round to try and make a plate to put Cherry switches in it, because I'm a heathen, obviously...

I'll buy a buckling F77, too... I want to get the F66 AND F77 in this round, but I just don't have enough justification...

And is it just the lighting, or does it look like those black blanks have a lot of shine? Are they prototypes? 
That black on black ultra compact is the same spec I am getting... I'm hyped.

The plate is curved, so the height of the switch will influence the spacing of the keys, thus possibly leading to an incorrect spacing. (You should measure the curvature and proceed from there). This will work only for uniform height keys, and will be optimized only for those keys that you account for in the design process.

The buckling spring plate is curved... But the case is flat... 
I've got a milling machine, and balls of steel. It'll be a fun project.

The internal border of the case has the same curvature of the plate - at least in some model f xt that I've seen. I don't know about this case...

XT/AT had angled (curved?), Fishsaver was flat - presumably the 77 was also flat originally

[Jampu]

...

The internal border of the case has the same curvature of the plate - at least in some model f xt that I've seen. I don't know about this case...

XT/AT had angled (curved?), Fishsaver was flat - presumably the 77 was also flat originally

The F107 has curves in the case, and being that the 62, 77 and 107 are all in the same model family I would wager Ellipse's cases will have curves too.

[tron]

@Ellipse. Sorry if this is off topic in a way but.....I've been loving my IBM 5251 and i'm wondering if a beam spring reproduction(5251 and 3278/79) would ever be on the table at some point?

[Petch]

...

The internal border of the case has the same curvature of the plate - at least in some model f xt that I've seen. I don't know about this case...

XT/AT had angled (curved?), Fishsaver was flat - presumably the 77 was also flat originally

The F107 has curves in the case, and being that the 62, 77 and 107 are all in the same model family I would wager Ellipse's cases will have curves too.

Original looks pretty flat to me

[Atredl]

...

The internal border of the case has the same curvature of the plate - at least in some model f xt that I've seen. I don't know about this case...

XT/AT had angled (curved?), Fishsaver was flat - presumably the 77 was also flat originally

The F107 has curves in the case, and being that the 62, 77 and 107 are all in the same model family I would wager Ellipse's cases will have curves too.

Original looks pretty flat to me

Show Image

I didn't realize this was an actual debate.

There are multiple pictures in Ellipse's OP that show pictures of curved plates and curved mounting points on the cases. On top of that aren't all buckling spring keycaps the same profile? The only way to achieve a sculpted profile would be to have a curved plate.

[Petch]

...

The internal border of the case has the same curvature of the plate - at least in some model f xt that I've seen. I don't know about this case...

XT/AT had angled (curved?), Fishsaver was flat - presumably the 77 was also flat originally

The F107 has curves in the case, and being that the 62, 77 and 107 are all in the same model family I would wager Ellipse's cases will have curves too.

Original looks pretty flat to me

Show Image

I didn't realize this was an actual debate.

There are multiple pictures in Ellipse's OP that show pictures of curved plates and curved mounting points on the cases. On top of that aren't all buckling spring keycaps the same profile? The only way to achieve a sculpted profile would be to have a curved plate.

I never said the plate wasn't curved - this was about the case having the same curve as the plate, which I don't think it does

[Atredl]

...

The internal border of the case has the same curvature of the plate - at least in some model f xt that I've seen. I don't know about this case...

XT/AT had angled (curved?), Fishsaver was flat - presumably the 77 was also flat originally

The F107 has curves in the case, and being that the 62, 77 and 107 are all in the same model family I would wager Ellipse's cases will have curves too.

Original looks pretty flat to me

Show Image

I didn't realize this was an actual debate.

There are multiple pictures in Ellipse's OP that show pictures of curved plates and curved mounting points on the cases. On top of that aren't all buckling spring keycaps the same profile? The only way to achieve a sculpted profile would be to have a curved plate.

I never said the plate wasn't curved - this was about the case having the same curve as the plate, which I don't think it does

I understood that the internal boarder was referencing this part of the case. Not an angled external case.

[Jampu]

...

The internal border of the case has the same curvature of the plate - at least in some model f xt that I've seen. I don't know about this case...

XT/AT had angled (curved?), Fishsaver was flat - presumably the 77 was also flat originally

The F107 has curves in the case, and being that the 62, 77 and 107 are all in the same model family I would wager Ellipse's cases will have curves too.

Original looks pretty flat to me

Show Image

I didn't realize this was an actual debate.

There are multiple pictures in Ellipse's OP that show pictures of curved plates and curved mounting points on the cases. On top of that aren't all buckling spring keycaps the same profile? The only way to achieve a sculpted profile would be to have a curved plate.

I never said the plate wasn't curved - this was about the case having the same curve as the plate, which I don't think it does

I understood that the internal boarder was referencing this part of the case (Attachment Link) . Not an angled external case.

Exactly that - once the case is assembled that curve is in contact along the full depth of the top plate.  I'm not sure there exists a BS board without a similar curve in the case.

All this said, curved plates should not be that hard to make if you can find a metal shop with a small rolling machine, or maybe even just a sheet metal brake.

[vewy_nice]

Ey guys calm down haha. I'm planning on machining off that rounded bit and using a flat plate. It'll be a big job. Don't worry I've got a plan

@Ellipse. Sorry if this is off topic in a way but.....I've been loving my IBM 5251 and i'm wondering if a beam spring reproduction(5251 and 3278/79) would ever be on the table at some point?

The amount of work that's went into this is just astronomical. I certainly wouldn't be up to the task even if my life depended on it.

I'm thinking a Beamspring would be even MORE complex. As such, I'd say probably no at the moment. 
I could be wrong, though! Who knows?

[tron]

Ey guys calm down haha. I'm planning on machining off that rounded bit and using a flat plate. It'll be a big job. Don't worry I've got a plan

@Ellipse. Sorry if this is off topic in a way but.....I've been loving my IBM 5251 and i'm wondering if a beam spring reproduction(5251 and 3278/79) would ever be on the table at some point?

The amount of work that's went into this is just astronomical. I certainly wouldn't be up to the task even if my life depended on it.

I'm thinking a Beamspring would be even MORE complex. As such, I'd say probably no at the moment. 
I could be wrong, though! Who knows?

Thanks but I would like to hear Ellipse chime in on this. The work to design the capsense pcb would be minimal based off of emdudes work and the controller is already available. The switch plate, case and bottom pan are really simple in design. The only issue I see is the cost for injection molds for the switch housing, switch stem and caps. Yes, this would be expensive but it could be done if enough people are willing to purchase.

Not to long ago I would have thought a model f reproduction was crazy and too expensive and yet here we are on the verge of launching the dream. Ellipse has a large customer base and a lot of press built up over the model f reproduction units. Why not take advantage of that and open an interest check for the beam springs?

[Puddsy]

Ey guys calm down haha. I'm planning on machining off that rounded bit and using a flat plate. It'll be a big job. Don't worry I've got a plan

@Ellipse. Sorry if this is off topic in a way but.....I've been loving my IBM 5251 and i'm wondering if a beam spring reproduction(5251 and 3278/79) would ever be on the table at some point?

The amount of work that's went into this is just astronomical. I certainly wouldn't be up to the task even if my life depended on it.

I'm thinking a Beamspring would be even MORE complex. As such, I'd say probably no at the moment. 
I could be wrong, though! Who knows?

Thanks but I would like to hear Ellipse chime in on this. The work to design the capsense pcb would be minimal based off of emdudes work and the controller is already available. The switch plate, case and bottom pan are really simple in design. The only issue I see is the cost for injection molds for the switch housing, switch stem and caps. Yes, this would be expensive but it could be done if enough people are willing to purchase.

Not to long ago I would have thought a model f reproduction was crazy and too expensive and yet here we are on the verge of launching the dream. Ellipse has a large customer base and a lot of press built up over the model f reproduction units. Why not take advantage of that and open an interest check for the beam springs?

depends on if he wants to put in the work or not

and it would be a TON of work, i mean just look at this one

he's just one guy, don't forget

[vewy_nice]

Why not take advantage of that and open an interest check for the beam springs?

Because the guy deserves a vacation 

[darkcruix]

Because the guy deserves a vacation 

 

[tron]

Why not take advantage of that and open an interest check for the beam springs?

Because the guy deserves a vacation 

I'm not denying the fact Ellipse deserves a vacation. All I am asking is if a beam spring reproduction project would ever be on the table, even if it's years from now I don't see my 5251 breaking anytime soon so I'm not concerned about rushing the process. I was just shocked to see how simple the beam spring design actually is when I opened mine up to restore it.

[Puddsy]

Why not take advantage of that and open an interest check for the beam springs?

Because the guy deserves a vacation 

I'm not denying the fact Ellipse deserves a vacation. All I am asking is if a beam spring reproduction project would ever be on the table, even if it's years from now I don't see my 5251 breaking anytime soon so I'm not concerned about rushing the process. I was just shocked to see how simple the beam spring design actually is when I opened mine up to restore it.

that's why old machine tools are so popular

if it's got like 3 moving parts, easy to replace one if it breaks

[consolation]

Why not take advantage of that and open an interest check for the beam springs?

Because the guy deserves a vacation 

I'm not denying the fact Ellipse deserves a vacation. All I am asking is if a beam spring reproduction project would ever be on the table, even if it's years from now I don't see my 5251 breaking anytime soon so I'm not concerned about rushing the process. I was just shocked to see how simple the beam spring design actually is when I opened mine up to restore it.

You still need to get the materials and tolerances just right if you're going to do anything more than a one off. You can't realistically hand fit more than one keyboard's switches... Each component has to be precise enough to be interchangeable and have enough slop so that they work within the range of tolerances of other parts.

This takes absolutes ages to work out for each individual part, you need to know more than just the dimensions; it's definitely not the case of just doing a 3D scan and sending it off to be made.

If you read how much problems ellipse had sourcing the springs, sorting out the fly plate and beam AND another spring would be a total nightmare. Remember buckling springs are the "simplified" switches - there's definitely more than 3 parts in beam springs.

Plus, iirc they use a totally different mount for caps, so you'd need to make moulds for every single keycap! I seem to remember that each cost about 500$ to make, correct me if I'm wrong.

The, upfront, investment in money and time would be huge. You'd need a lot of buyers to break even, before you even get into profit and getting paid for your time and effort.

Sorry to be such a Debbie Downer... wish it wasn't the case.

[tron]

Why not take advantage of that and open an interest check for the beam springs?

Because the guy deserves a vacation 

I'm not denying the fact Ellipse deserves a vacation. All I am asking is if a beam spring reproduction project would ever be on the table, even if it's years from now I don't see my 5251 breaking anytime soon so I'm not concerned about rushing the process. I was just shocked to see how simple the beam spring design actually is when I opened mine up to restore it.

You still need to get the materials and tolerances just right if you're going to do anything more than a one off. You can't realistically hand fit more than one keyboards switches... Each component has to be precise enough to be interchangeable and have enough slop so that they work within the range of tolerances of other parts.

This takes absolutes ages to work out for each individual part, you need to know more than just the dimensions; it's definitely not the case of just doing a 3D scan and sending it off to be made.

If you read how much problems ellipse had sourcing the springs, sorting out the fly plate and beam AND another spring would be a total nightmare. Remember buckling springs are the "simplified" switches - there's definitely more than 3 parts in beam springs.

Plus, iirc they use a totally different mount for caps, so you'd need to make moulds for every single keycap! I seem to remember that each cost about 500$ to make, correct me if I'm wrong.

The, upfront, investment in money and time would be huge. You'd need a lot of buyers to break even, before you even get into profit and getting paid for your time and effort.

Sorry to be such a Debbie Downer... wish it wasn't the case.

I totally agree. It would be expensive and risky. Perhaps a Cherry mount could be used so caps like MT3 or SA can substitute. The height and angle of the mount on the bottom tray/pan could be adjusted to accommodate the sculpting change and make the cost more practical.

Oh well, maybe one day there will be enough beam spring enthusiasts to justify the project. IMO if the project ever comes into fruition it could totally disrupt the mechanical keyboard market because the switches are just so much better than current offerings. Most people that complain about beam springs point out the case height and angle. A modern low profile case is totally possible because the inner case has a lot of wasted space and is lifted up quite a bit on the bottom pan mount.

[supamesican]

if I'm being honest I think id rather get my hands on a modern selectric vs a modern beam spring. I see, personally, no reason to hope for the cost savings/cut down version, go for the big kahuna. Since if memory services the beam spring was a way to cut down on the cost of selectric keyboards, the F on beam spring, and M on F.

[Techno Trousers]

I don't know how exactly the Selectric key switch mechanism worked, but I've read that it's incredibly complex and prone to failure, needing a lot of regular servicing. Beamspring switches were prone to dust, and the covering to mitigate that didn't hold up to the test of time. Remember, sometimes replacement versions aren't ONLY about cost savings. I still think Model F was the peak of IBM keyboard technology, balancing feel, cost, and longevity, but the single beamspring keychain switch I have does feel sublime.

It seems to me the royal "we" should be able to come up with a new key switch that replicates the mechanism and thus feel of beamspring, but allows it to be durable and incorporated into modern form factors. Of course that would mean it wouldn't be an Ellipse-type reproduction at all, would it?

[tron]

I don't know how exactly the Selectric key switch mechanism worked, but I've read that it's incredibly complex and prone to failure, needing a lot of regular servicing. Beamspring switches were prone to dust, and the covering to mitigate that didn't hold up to the test of time. Remember, sometimes replacement versions aren't ONLY about cost savings. I still think Model F was the peak of IBM keyboard technology, balancing feel, cost, and longevity, but the single beamspring keychain switch I have does feel sublime.

It seems to me the royal "we" should be able to come up with a new key switch that replicates the mechanism and thus feel of beamspring, but allows it to be durable and incorporated into modern form factors. Of course that would mean it wouldn't be an Ellipse-type reproduction at all, would it?

Regarding the dust issue with beam springs. I don't think it's a big issue even with the contamination shield off. It may need opened up and blown out once a year if that. IBM was probably just thinking that they would rarely or never be opened up by the end user for cleaning and wanted the system to have die hard reliability over many years of use.

[pixelpusher]

alright guys, if you want to talk about other projects in depth please PM or start a new thread.  You can link the thread here for others interested.

[Ellipse]

The key factory has returned from the holiday break and will now start working on the PBT key tolerances.  The keys need to be a little smaller coming out of the mold so they need to adjust and test the molds.  They are experimenting with the PBT color mixing to get the right colors.

The factory is ready to start the dark gray color mixing.  It's difficult for me to tell from the keyboard photos.  What's a recommended Pantone/RAL value for the dark grey printed keys?  Please post your recommendations.  I'll also cross post in the other thread.

[pixelpusher]

The key factory has returned from the holiday break and will now start working on the PBT key tolerances.  The keys need to be a little smaller coming out of the mold so they need to adjust and test the molds.  They are experimenting with the PBT color mixing to get the right colors.

The factory is ready to start the dark gray color mixing.  It's difficult for me to tell from the keyboard photos.  What's a recommended Pantone/RAL value for the dark grey printed keys?  Please post your recommendations.  I'll also cross post in the other thread.

Good news.  Man, I hope they get the PBT right.  Even Signature Plastics seems to still have a hard time with PBT tolerances.

[Techno Trousers]

They are experimenting with the PBT color mixing to get the right colors.

This is critical, especially to match the original IBM pebble and pearl color scheme.

[Giorgio]

I wonder if the force - displacement of the new keyboards will be close to the old ones.

This site is probably the best source for force - displacement graphs, there are resources for cherry, IBM etc
https://plot.ly/~haata/200

[Techno Trousers]

I wonder if the force - displacement of the new keyboards will be close to the old ones.

It should be virtually identical, with as much care as Ellipse is taking to make sure both the feel and sound are as close to the original keyboards as possible.

Though it would be really nice of Ellipse to send a loaner keyboard to haata so he can measure the reproduction F force curve too.

[Puddsy]

I wonder if the force - displacement of the new keyboards will be close to the old ones.

This site is probably the best source for force - displacement graphs, there are resources for cherry, IBM etc
https://plot.ly/~haata/200

(Attachment Link)

it's the same

[InvidiousIgnoramus]

Alright, ellipse, it's been a few weeks. How are things looking right now?

[Ellipse]

Key Success!  The key factory told me they have successfully corrected the key molds and showed me a video of the new keys and barrels working smoothly!  I will of course evaluate the samples when they arrive in a couple weeks to make sure all tolerances are met.  Below is a photo from one of the key molds.  Once the PBT material, tolerances, and colors are approved then key production will start. 

After that the keys will need to be dye sublimated.  The sample keys from the new factory successfully accepted dye sublimation on their key tops but the dye sublimation techniques to reduce bleeding and ensure deep black text are still being worked on.  As noted in the February update the factory got the key top texture perfect their first try! 

Sorry there has not been much to update the first few weeks back into production this month.  The factory is still at work on the project.

The first new production parts will be shipping this week - those who ordered only F122 or F107 foam!  If you need your foam early and would like separate shipping please let me know. 

The ultra compact cases and inner assembly parts are still in production.  Some unfinished F77 ultra compact case tops are in the photo below.

[smt]

Thanks for the update, Ellipse! 

[Puddsy]

Key Success!  The key factory told me they have successfully corrected the key molds and showed me a video of the new keys and barrels working smoothly!  I will of course evaluate the samples when they arrive in a couple weeks to make sure all tolerances are met.  Below is a photo from one of the key molds.  Once the PBT material, tolerances, and colors are approved then key production will start. 

After that the keys will need to be dye sublimated.  The sample keys from the new factory successfully accepted dye sublimation on their key tops but the dye sublimation techniques to reduce bleeding and ensure deep black text are still being worked on.  As noted in the February update the factory got the key top texture perfect their first try! 

Sorry there has not been much to update the first few weeks back into production this month.  The factory is still at work on the project.

The first new production parts will be shipping this week - those who ordered only F122 or F107 foam!  If you need your foam early and would like separate shipping please let me know. 

The ultra compact cases and inner assembly parts are still in production.  Some unfinished F77 ultra compact case tops are in the photo below.

(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)

Great news!

Thanks for the update.

[Ellipse]

Today I packed the first Brand New Model F production parts for shipment!  F107 and F122 foam are going out tomorrow.

If you want F107 or F122 foam please order soon.  I have only 4 left of the F122/F107 foam and that will be it for early shipping (the rest will ship later this year). 

[Giorgio]

Today I packed the first Brand New Model F production parts for shipment!  F107 and F122 foam are going out tomorrow.

If you want F107 or F122 foam please order soon.  I have only 4 left of the F122/F107 foam and that will be it for early shipping (the rest will ship later this year).

No model F AT?

[Ellipse]

Correct, I don't have AT foam

[ApocalypseMaow]

Every time I come back there is a ton of good news in here!!! still hyped on this, blk on blk #13 let's get it!!!