Unpopular Keyboard Opinions

[actualglacier]

I'm using some box navies for typing at home, but I still don't mind using even Cherry MX Red. Browns just feel terrible to me, and aren't tactile enough to be worth being tactile at all in light of this. I certainly haven't tried lubed ones though.

Again, they're only really meant to be barely noticeably tactile, since they were originally designed as an "ergo" option.  Lubing them or just wearing them in for a few months makes them much nicer to use though.

Exactly this. A lot of people seem to miss the point of MX browns. They aren't meant to be the most tactile thing in the world nor the smoothest (blame cherry molds for that), but properly tuned/lubed they're some of the nicest switch for typists with good form.

I understanding disliking MX browns if you've tried all the popular switches plus their tuned/lubed counterparts, at that point it's just personal preference. It is, however, a bit sad to see people bash brown switches just because they're readily available and not as tactile as some other existing switches (and somehow, making them bad? lol).

I genuinely know linear switches that are more tactile than MX Brown.

chyros moment

chyros moment

[HungerMechanic]

I was going to write a big post about this when I was typing on an MX Brown keyboard for months, but I'll give you an abbreviated version:

MX Browns are a 'chill' switch. They are meant to be linears with a barely-noticeable bump.

They are a 'subconscious' switch. For touch typists, they give just enough subconscious feedback to indicate that a key has been pressed. That way, the typist can continue on an ergonomic low-tactility, low-weight switch without thinking about the switch at all.

They are meant to get out of your way. To be invisible. You don't type on MX Browns one character at-a-time. You type one-word-at-a time, one sentence at-a-time. You just imagine the word, and it appears on your screen. You don't think about typing.

It was clearly meant to be a business-like switch that isn't part of your conscious typing experience. The individual switch-feel is terrible, especially on new Browns. But you don't even feel this complete process if you type a full sentence. If you're a touch-typist and a light-typist, you don't even bottom-out on Browns, so it's just subconscious-activation directly to the next letter, with hardly any feel in-between.

Now, there are a lot of switch 'enthusiasts' here, and on Reddit. We want the best switch 'feel.' For some people, the typing is an end-in-itself. This is not who MX Brown is designed for. It's designed for average Joes and Janes who are entering spreadsheet data, typing Microsoft Office reports, gaming, and transcribing. They aren't looking for the optimum or 'premium' switch-feel, just something that works.

This is why MX Browns are unpopular in enthusiast communities, but are popular in the larger typing world. The end users are looking for different things.

[mode]

I typed on MX brown for years, and I can't say I hated it, but it was utterly forgettable once I knew better.

I don't care about typing speed, just whether I find the experience of using them pleasing and my error rate is low. While using MX brown I probably went weeks without even slightly thinking about my keyboard, I just used it. I used a mechanical keyboard because as I'd become accustomed to it rubber dome boards suddenly felt like utter poop. Since I switched to ALPS, pretty much every time I sit down to use the thing I have a moment of contemplative satisfaction at how much I like typing on it and since getting used to that as part of my normal working day I refuse to compromise on it.

That's why MX Brown sucks, it's not that bad, it's just so utterly bland.

[chyros]

But I personally wouldn't ever really advocate for a switch that requires modification when new from the factory.

That's all well and good, but the majority of people in this hobby mod their switches, no matter how nice they are stock.

Browns don't need to be modded, they need to be used for a few months to break in because of bad tooling. Old browns are better because they were produced when the tooling was new, but the switch was not produced outside of specialty boards and random compaqs during that time, so they're hard to find. Vint blacks are talked about and praised a lot because they're everywhere. But if browns were more readily available when the tooling was new, I'm almost positive they would be thought of in the same "They're scratchy now, but the vints feel great" way.

I'm not sure if the tooling for browns was updated with their linears that recently got updated, but I imagine not. Someone feel free to clue me in if they were though.

My problem with MX brown is as follows. First, as Maledicted mentioned, MX browns have tactility that's on par with their scratchiness and therefore hard to detect. This is the most outwardly noticeable symptom, though not the root cause, which is where my problem with them lies.

This I will outline by following up on your point; the vintage MX browns I reviewed (in the original model of keyboard they were designed for, actually) were not, in my opinion, able to adequately or even noticeably address the issue mentioned above, although according to your theory, it should. However, the way I see it, the reason for their lacklustre tactility is not bad tooling; in my opinion, the whole design of tactile MX switches is not physically capable of generating a tactility that will NOT feel like scratchiness. The notch they use will always generate a wave-like, weak tactility, rather than a true tactile drop. It's not just MX brown, it's EVERY MX-type tactile switch. Lubrication will only make this worse, and no amount of spring swapping or other modding will ever fix this inherent issue. THAT is why I dislike tactile MX switches so much.

Of course, to each their own, but to me someone who likes tactile switches to have no tactility is as bizarre as someone who likes their switches to be as scratchy as possible, and saying it was never meant to be tactile in a noticeable way is saying it was designed to fail xD .

[DALExSNAIL]

But I personally wouldn't ever really advocate for a switch that requires modification when new from the factory.

That's all well and good, but the majority of people in this hobby mod their switches, no matter how nice they are stock.

Browns don't need to be modded, they need to be used for a few months to break in because of bad tooling. Old browns are better because they were produced when the tooling was new, but the switch was not produced outside of specialty boards and random compaqs during that time, so they're hard to find. Vint blacks are talked about and praised a lot because they're everywhere. But if browns were more readily available when the tooling was new, I'm almost positive they would be thought of in the same "They're scratchy now, but the vints feel great" way.

I'm not sure if the tooling for browns was updated with their linears that recently got updated, but I imagine not. Someone feel free to clue me in if they were though.

I also wouldn't, personally, advocate for switches that require breaking in when new from the factory. Modding for a very specific feel you can't get otherwise, of course, makes perfect sense to me. I've repeatedly thought about modified clickbars and spring weights to make Box Jades or Navies more of an intermediate weight, with much less of a tactile upstroke (more similar to alps), though I haven't tried anything yet. I don't have a massive sample size, but Cherry MX feels like Cherry MX to me, old or new. They've apparently been retooled many times since the "Vintage black" days.

You do what you have to do, man. I'm just making the point that there are very good reasons that most people do not like Cherry MX Brown. Nobody is wrong for liking them. Have you tried any of the Kailh Box tactiles?

It's just a meme in the community to hate browns, so I feel a need to defend them.

Break in is a real thing with a lot of good switches, silents especially I've found. It's plastic rubbing plastic which in most cases isn't super smooth. They can be smooth off the rip for sure, but I don't fault a switch for needing a break in period personally.

I've tried the boxes you're talking about, but only individually. I was cautious to use them at the time because of the stem issues they were having. But honestly, I don't like the look of them so I haven't had the desire to grab any personally.

I've tried a lot of switches over time, and I personally think vintage is a thing, even if it is just really worn in stems. The older housings even make new stems feel smoother in my experience.

[HungerMechanic]

As for retooling, I have pre-2017 Browns and post-2017 Browns (with the new stem markings), and I think that there are differences.

The older Browns are on my Filco Majestouch 2, which is noted for allegedly picking the smoother or better Browns for those models. These would be pre-retooling (I think the keyboard is from 2016) and have the old stems and housings. [Not vintage, though, just the intermediate period when Cherry let its tooling go downhill, say 2007-2017 or so.]

The old Browns were absolutely terrible when I got them. My first mech, and it felt worse than a rubber-dome to me. It didn't take long to adjust to the lighter weight and middle-actuation of the switches, though. It took a long time for the switches to break-in, maybe a year, but they are smoother now, and enjoyable with thick DCS-profile.

The new Browns, I received on a Varmilo VA87M and then a Leopold FC900R. These seemed different from the older pre-2017 Browns on my MJ2. The new Browns are not quite as scratchy out-of-the-box, and maybe even seemed a little smoother. The tactile bump is a little more distinct, although more of a subconscious 'click.' Some say the 'retooled' Browns are more like Gaterons than before. I've noticed that, a year later, the Browns on the VA87M have changed less than those of my Majestouch. The new ones seem smoother out-of-the-box, but my older models may have smoothed out more.

Anyway, I can't tell you for sure whether there are any definite changes, besides markings on the stem and housing. Maybe the tooling is a little newer, maybe they changed things a bit. Nobody seems to care enough to check!

[DALExSNAIL]

But I personally wouldn't ever really advocate for a switch that requires modification when new from the factory.

That's all well and good, but the majority of people in this hobby mod their switches, no matter how nice they are stock.

Browns don't need to be modded, they need to be used for a few months to break in because of bad tooling. Old browns are better because they were produced when the tooling was new, but the switch was not produced outside of specialty boards and random compaqs during that time, so they're hard to find. Vint blacks are talked about and praised a lot because they're everywhere. But if browns were more readily available when the tooling was new, I'm almost positive they would be thought of in the same "They're scratchy now, but the vints feel great" way.

I'm not sure if the tooling for browns was updated with their linears that recently got updated, but I imagine not. Someone feel free to clue me in if they were though.

My problem with MX brown is as follows. First, as Maledicted mentioned, MX browns have tactility that's on par with their scratchiness and therefore hard to detect. This is the most outwardly noticeable symptom, though not the root cause, which is where my problem with them lies.

This I will outline by following up on your point; the vintage MX browns I reviewed (in the original model of keyboard they were designed for, actually) were not, in my opinion, able to adequately or even noticeably address the issue mentioned above, although according to your theory, it should. However, the way I see it, the reason for their lacklustre tactility is not bad tooling; in my opinion, the whole design of tactile MX switches is not physically capable of generating a tactility that will NOT feel like scratchiness. The notch they use will always generate a wave-like, weak tactility, rather than a true tactile drop. It's not just MX brown, it's EVERY MX-type tactile switch. Lubrication will only make this worse, and no amount of spring swapping or other modding will ever fix this inherent issue. THAT is why I dislike tactile MX switches so much.

Of course, to each their own, but to me someone who likes tactile switches to have no tactility is as bizarre as someone who likes their switches to be as scratchy as possible, and saying it was never meant to be tactile in a noticeable way is saying it was designed to fail xD .

I can only really say that we've had different experiences with vintage browns then. All of the one's I've had that were considered "true vintage" have been very noticeably smoother to me. One set being well worn, another being hardly used, but both being similar for me in terms of smoothness.

Also to clarify, I'm not arguing that the tactility was more noticeable when the tooling was new, only the smoothness being better.

It's hard to argue that Browns aren't meant to be noticeably tactile without sounding a bit silly, and I get that, but honestly they have to have the "tactile" qualifier because you can't really call them "sorta tactile but just barely" or "technically tactile?". Our argument is that the very low tactility of browns is desirable to a lot of people, not that they are an amazing tactile switch.

[HungerMechanic]

Let's face it. We're like the craft-beer drinkers of the keyboard world. Many like special custom beer fermented in special ways, with extra custom 'hops' that may not be tolerable to the average drinker.

MX Browns are like the Coors Light or Molson Canadian that is available at the chain restaurant - a relatively consistent and affordable product that is tolerable to most people, and good enough to get you drunk, given sufficient quantity.

[DALExSNAIL]

Let's face it. We're like the craft-beer drinkers of the keyboard world. Many like special custom beer fermented in special ways, with extra custom 'hops' that may not be tolerable to the average drinker.

MX Browns are like the Coors Light or Molson Canadian that is available at the chain restaurant because it is tolerable to most people, and good enough to get you drunk, given sufficient quantity.

 

[HungerMechanic]

Actually, now that I think about it, MX Brown really is like a light beer. You can type a lot / drink a lot, it is barely satisfying or unsatisfying on its own, but it can get the job done for cheap.

[Maledicted]

I was going to write a big post about this when I was typing on an MX Brown keyboard for months, but I'll give you an abbreviated version:

MX Browns are a 'chill' switch. They are meant to be linears with a barely-noticeable bump.

They are a 'subconscious' switch. For touch typists, they give just enough subconscious feedback to indicate that a key has been pressed. That way, the typist can continue on an ergonomic low-tactility, low-weight switch without thinking about the switch at all.

They are meant to get out of your way. To be invisible. You don't type on MX Browns one character at-a-time. You type one-word-at-a time, one sentence at-a-time. You just imagine the word, and it appears on your screen. You don't think about typing.

It was clearly meant to be a business-like switch that isn't part of your conscious typing experience. The individual switch-feel is terrible, especially on new Browns. But you don't even feel this complete process if you type a full sentence. If you're a touch-typist and a light-typist, you don't even bottom-out on Browns, so it's just subconscious-activation directly to the next letter, with hardly any feel in-between.

Now, there are a lot of switch 'enthusiasts' here, and on Reddit. We want the best switch 'feel.' For some people, the typing is an end-in-itself. This is not who MX Brown is designed for. It's designed for average Joes and Janes who are entering spreadsheet data, typing Microsoft Office reports, gaming, and transcribing. They aren't looking for the optimum or 'premium' switch-feel, just something that works.

This is why MX Browns are unpopular in enthusiast communities, but are popular in the larger typing world. The end users are looking for different things.

I am a touch typist, but not a particularly light one. The scratchiness of browns bothers me enough to make me think about each keystroke, although maybe I would just need to use them a while. It seems to me that any switch type can get out of your way/be invisible, it all comes down to what you're focusing on at the moment.

But I personally wouldn't ever really advocate for a switch that requires modification when new from the factory.

That's all well and good, but the majority of people in this hobby mod their switches, no matter how nice they are stock.

Browns don't need to be modded, they need to be used for a few months to break in because of bad tooling. Old browns are better because they were produced when the tooling was new, but the switch was not produced outside of specialty boards and random compaqs during that time, so they're hard to find. Vint blacks are talked about and praised a lot because they're everywhere. But if browns were more readily available when the tooling was new, I'm almost positive they would be thought of in the same "They're scratchy now, but the vints feel great" way.

I'm not sure if the tooling for browns was updated with their linears that recently got updated, but I imagine not. Someone feel free to clue me in if they were though.

I also wouldn't, personally, advocate for switches that require breaking in when new from the factory. Modding for a very specific feel you can't get otherwise, of course, makes perfect sense to me. I've repeatedly thought about modified clickbars and spring weights to make Box Jades or Navies more of an intermediate weight, with much less of a tactile upstroke (more similar to alps), though I haven't tried anything yet. I don't have a massive sample size, but Cherry MX feels like Cherry MX to me, old or new. They've apparently been retooled many times since the "Vintage black" days.

You do what you have to do, man. I'm just making the point that there are very good reasons that most people do not like Cherry MX Brown. Nobody is wrong for liking them. Have you tried any of the Kailh Box tactiles?

It's just a meme in the community to hate browns, so I feel a need to defend them.

Break in is a real thing with a lot of good switches, silents especially I've found. It's plastic rubbing plastic which in most cases isn't super smooth. They can be smooth off the rip for sure, but I don't fault a switch for needing a break in period personally.

I've tried the boxes you're talking about, but only individually. I was cautious to use them at the time because of the stem issues they were having. But honestly, I don't like the look of them so I haven't had the desire to grab any personally.

I've tried a lot of switches over time, and I personally think vintage is a thing, even if it is just really worn in stems. The older housings even make new stems feel smoother in my experience.

You don't like the look of them? Are you using completely clear, unfrosted keycaps?

[DALExSNAIL]

You don't like the look of them? Are you using completely clear, unfrosted keycaps?

lol no, I would just think about it all the time, and it would annoy me. I'm like that with a lot of things, irrationally.

[HungerMechanic]

I was going to write a big post about this when I was typing on an MX Brown keyboard for months, but I'll give you an abbreviated version:

MX Browns are a 'chill' switch. They are meant to be linears with a barely-noticeable bump.

I am a touch typist, but not a particularly light one. The scratchiness of browns bothers me enough to make me think about each keystroke, although maybe I would just need to use them a while. It seems to me that any switch type can get out of your way/be invisible, it all comes down to what you're focusing on at the moment.

That's fair. The scratchiness used to bother me, but more than a year of smoothing-in plus thick DCS keycaps ameliorated that problem somewhat.

If I was to add an addendum to what I wrote about MX Brown being a 'chill' switch, I would say that MX Browns tend to reflect your emotional state at the time. I find that if I am bored with what I am typing, I just sort of listlessly peck away at them, it comes out as this very 'meh' flow. But if I am interested in what I am writing, it comes out more energetically. Being a bland switch without a lot of character, MX Browns may be more reflective of user force than other switches.

Then again, the scratichness gets in the way, as you say.

[Maledicted]

If I was to add an addendum to what I wrote about MX Brown being a 'chill' switch, I would say that MX Browns tend to reflect your emotional state at the time. I find that if I am bored with what I am typing, I just sort of listlessly peck away at them, it comes out as this very 'meh' flow. But if I am interested in what I am writing, it comes out more energetically. Being a bland switch without a lot of character, MX Browns may be more reflective of user force than other switches.

I suppose I'm always just bottoming out every switch I use at rapid pace, so I'm not a very ... expressive typist.

[jacethesaltsculptor]

Let's face it. We're like the craft-beer drinkers of the keyboard world. Many like special custom beer fermented in special ways, with extra custom 'hops' that may not be tolerable to the average drinker.

MX Browns are like the Coors Light or Molson Canadian that is available at the chain restaurant - a relatively consistent and affordable product that is tolerable to most people, and good enough to get you drunk, given sufficient quantity.

It's like free beer to me, I've yet to have free beer that I hated, even if the quality wasn't so good.

For me honestly, I never tried a brown until about a month ago with a huge key tester I got on kbdfans:
I got the big boy: https://kbdfans.com/collections/switches-tester/products/kbdfans-72-switches-tester-all-in-one

It was wonderful this year because it helped me figure out a lot about people's preferences (or lack thereof) around me.

But of course I had my own personal moment when I got it out and capped it up, just to feel what everything felt like and what I thought, and it didn't take long for me to realize what I cared for in a switch.

I got through the bottom, and decided to feel the regular ole cherry switches, and browns put me off immediately. They feel dirty to me, like they've been left outside and then put into a keyboard.

Perhaps an entire board of them would feel different rather than just one, but it made me realize very quickly that tactile isn't any good to me unless I've got a click with it, then magically it's great.

If I was given a board with Cherry browns in it, I would type on it, but I would never buy one.

[fohat.digs]

I find that if I am bored with what I am typing, I just sort of listlessly peck away at them,

But if I am interested in what I am writing, it comes out more energetically.

This a real characteristic that I appreciate in buckling springs, although I would re-frame it.

When I am typing fast and well I can touch type on them without bottoming out, since the tactility tells me when the key has done its job. But when I am irritated or frustrated, I can stab away with hundreds of grams of force and know that the keys are still OK with my mood.

About brown Cherry switches, although I don't use them, they are not that bad * ONCE THEY ARE BROKEN IN PROPERLY * (ergo clears are very similar but better IMO) and, of course, any tactility is better than no tactility.

[megasthenes]

Did someone already mention that IBM Model Ms are not that great?

They're built like tanks, okay. They look good and have a great overall design.

But I can't stand typing on one for more than a few minutes. They don't feel that great and that sound might give some WWII veterans PTSD.

[Sintpinty]

Did someone already mention that IBM Model Ms are not that great?

They're built like tanks, okay. They look good and have a great overall design.

But I can't stand typing on one for more than a few minutes. They don't feel that great and that sound might give some WWII veterans PTSD.

why do people like heavy switches?

[megasthenes]

I don't know maybe they need to compensate for something?

[Maledicted]

I disagree that they're built like tanks, if they weren't held together with plastic rivets, they would be. One might argue that the bolt mod is easy enough to do, which would probably make them amongst the tankiest boards around. I haven't attempted it with either of mine yet, though I know at least one needs it. The keys all feel terrible. The other's keys feel mushy to me. I would assume that since the guy I got it from is a Model M fanatic that it was in good condition inside, but I'll have to investigate that.

I do, however, like the Model M's sound. The Model F is the king of BS though. Lighter, smoother, more consistent.

I don't know that it is necessarily just heavy switches. I noticed that I love Box Navies, but I am not (yet) much of a fan of Cherry MX Black. They seem to fatigue me more quickly, and take more effort to ensure actuation ... somehow. Box Navies, while very heavy, do have better tactility and balance between the clickbar and return spring than Jades, and I think both switches have much better feel than the lighter switches in the spectrum. I don't know that any of that matters with Cherry MX, with those blues are just good enough either way.

[jacethesaltsculptor]

Did someone already mention that IBM Model Ms are not that great?

They're built like tanks, okay. They look good and have a great overall design.

But I can't stand typing on one for more than a few minutes. They don't feel that great and that sound might give some WWII veterans PTSD.

why do people like heavy switches?

Because I'm compensa....

I don't know maybe they need to compensate for something?

ummm. err... um. 

For me, it's two things really I think:

1. Nostalgia is a huge thing for me, I grew up typing on them, they have a comfortable and familiar feeling to me, and the click is therapeutic for me and gives me tons of feedback so I know I pressed a key successfully. I do know it's overkill, but I enjoy that.

2. I didn't realize for years, but I pulverize keyboards, and it's not really intentional. I've always typed hard, so lighter keys feel too cheap to me, don't give enough feedback, or just don't satisfy the individual typing stroke I just made, so I can't get a rhythm.

Now I know full well that lighter keys aren't cheap, and that not everyone wants that feedback, but it hurts my typing ability if I lack that.

While I've given three BS keyboards to others in my family, I and they are in the minority in the family for enjoying the sound or feel, that I do know.

[jacethesaltsculptor]

I disagree that they're built like tanks, if they weren't held together with plastic rivets, they would be. One might argue that the bolt mod is easy enough to do, which would probably make them amongst the tankiest boards around. I haven't attempted it with either of mine yet, though I know at least one needs it. The keys all feel terrible. The other's keys feel mushy to me. I would assume that since the guy I got it from is a Model M fanatic that it was in good condition inside, but I'll have to investigate that.

I do, however, like the Model M's sound. The Model F is the king of BS though. Lighter, smoother, more consistent.

I don't know that it is necessarily just heavy switches. I noticed that I love Box Navies, but I am not (yet) much of a fan of Cherry MX Black. They seem to fatigue me more quickly, and take more effort to ensure actuation ... somehow. Box Navies, while very heavy, do have better tactility and balance between the clickbar and return spring than Jades, and I think both switches have much better feel than the lighter switches in the spectrum. I don't know that any of that matters with Cherry MX, with those blues are just good enough either way.

They do have a pretty heavy built quality, even new Unicomps, compared especially to rubber dome keyboards.

But you are 1000% correct about bolt mods, many Model M's ages work against them so it's very possible to need that mod depending on how hard you type, and what you do on the keyboard. It also depends on the condition of the Model M you buy and how it comes, a great deal many were used for literal decades.

Model F's are the tanks, they are heavy, they are metal, and they are entire experiences of their own. My F122 was something I wanted, but it still scares me with how big it is. I love it, but I won't pretend it's a practical keyboard, It stays on my desk and I have no desk space in front of me now.

My Bigfoot is another tank that I use on my Mac, and it's fun, but it's got limitations, it's footprint is also just massive for what it is. I enjoy it, but people do think my setup is kooky.

[Maledicted]

They do have a pretty heavy built quality, even new Unicomps, compared especially to rubber dome keyboards.

But you are 1000% correct about bolt mods, many Model M's ages work against them so it's very possible to need that mod depending on how hard you type, and what you do on the keyboard. It also depends on the condition of the Model M you buy and how it comes, a great deal many were used for literal decades.

Model F's are the tanks, they are heavy, they are metal, and they are entire experiences of their own. My F122 was something I wanted, but it still scares me with how big it is. I love it, but I won't pretend it's a practical keyboard, It stays on my desk and I have no desk space in front of me now.

My Bigfoot is another tank that I use on my Mac, and it's fun, but it's got limitations, it's footprint is also just massive for what it is. I enjoy it, but people do think my setup is kooky.

Alas, the F AT you want does not have a metal lower casing, like the XT, 122, etc. The guts aren't all held together with plastic rivets though. If you wait long enough, maybe you might as well hold out for one of the new F77s in whatever modern layout you like and use your own F/M keycaps. I wanted an F122 myself since I could get very close to ANSI without ruining the plate, unlike an AT, but I have no desk space anywhere for those land whales anyway, and I have quite a few desks to populate.

[jacethesaltsculptor]

Alas, the F AT you want does not have a metal lower casing, like the XT, 122, etc. The guts aren't all held together with plastic rivets though. If you wait long enough, maybe you might as well hold out for one of the new F77s in whatever modern layout you like and use your own F/M keycaps. I wanted an F122 myself since I could get very close to ANSI without ruining the plate, unlike an AT, but I have no desk space anywhere for those land whales anyway, and I have quite a few desks to populate.

A man could only wish that all keyboards had that sort of plate, it makes a keyboard feel incredibly quality that is for sure.

I've been torn back and forth on the new F77's but really want to see a review done on one by Chryros or someone else on Youtube. I want to see them in peoples hands, hear the feedback before I commit. Thankfully there seems to be plans for another run.

I don't blame you on not having the space, it's a battle for me, I couldn't believe that my current desk was okay with the two, but I plan on getting an IKEA one soon enough and getting a BIIIIG key tray installed for the same reason. Once I get my wrists looked at, I may again go back to just one massive keyboard, instead of a setup that looks like a medieval Organ.

[pabile]

I still do not understand the usefulness of a 60% keyboards, I at least need arrows. Also the excuse of space saving simply is invalid for me. If you do not have space for at least a ten-keyless, where is your monitor?

have you tried using space as Fn? my workhorse is a conventional 60% and i work with a lot of spreadsheets. never needed anything bigger than 60% so far. my arrow cluster is like so:

[Maledicted]

Alas, the F AT you want does not have a metal lower casing, like the XT, 122, etc. The guts aren't all held together with plastic rivets though. If you wait long enough, maybe you might as well hold out for one of the new F77s in whatever modern layout you like and use your own F/M keycaps. I wanted an F122 myself since I could get very close to ANSI without ruining the plate, unlike an AT, but I have no desk space anywhere for those land whales anyway, and I have quite a few desks to populate.

A man could only wish that all keyboards had that sort of plate, it makes a keyboard feel incredibly quality that is for sure.

I've been torn back and forth on the new F77's but really want to see a review done on one by Chryros or someone else on Youtube. I want to see them in peoples hands, hear the feedback before I commit. Thankfully there seems to be plans for another run.

I don't blame you on not having the space, it's a battle for me, I couldn't believe that my current desk was okay with the two, but I plan on getting an IKEA one soon enough and getting a BIIIIG key tray installed for the same reason. Once I get my wrists looked at, I may again go back to just one massive keyboard, instead of a setup that looks like a medieval Organ.

The Unitek K151Ls seem to be relatively cheap, and those are built like tanks. Metal plate, metal lower casing, even metal wire feet. I think they have NKRO as well, although I should really test that. They even have XT/AT switches. They come with "vintage" black switches, but I plan to swap mine for Kailh box switches eventually. The layout is AT, unfortunately.

F77 #191 is mine, so if there's nothing before I get it, I'll let you know what I think.

I don't think that your current desk is actually ok with it. I think it is suffering silently, praying for death. Those things may snap an IKEA desk in half. That would be a shame, the medieval organ looks great.

I still do not understand the usefulness of a 60% keyboards, I at least need arrows. Also the excuse of space saving simply is invalid for me. If you do not have space for at least a ten-keyless, where is your monitor?

have you tried using space as Fn? my workhorse is a conventional 60% and i work with a lot of spreadsheets. never needed anything bigger than 60% so far. my arrow cluster is like so:
(Attachment Link)

Do you mix a lot of hotkeys with the arrow keys when navigating a spreadsheet? Sometimes I'm using shift, sometimes ctrl, sometimes both (at least in Google Sheets, which is used a lot at work). Throwing yet another key to press into the works is a no-go as far as I'm concerned. a 75% isn't so much bigger that it makes any difference.

[jacethesaltsculptor]

The Unitek K151Ls seem to be relatively cheap, and those are built like tanks. Metal plate, metal lower casing, even metal wire feet. I think they have NKRO as well, although I should really test that. They even have XT/AT switches. They come with "vintage" black switches, but I plan to swap mine for Kailh box switches eventually. The layout is AT, unfortunately.

F77 #191 is mine, so if there's nothing before I get it, I'll let you know what I think.

I don't think that your current desk is actually ok with it. I think it is suffering silently, praying for death. Those things may snap an IKEA desk in half. That would be a shame, the medieval organ looks great.

I'd love to see a Unitek K151L with Box Navies in it, that'd be a hell of a keyboard I'd say.

oooh! I'd love to hear what you think of it. From what you tell me we seem to share most of our keyboard tastes, so it'd be quite a bit if I got your opinion on the matter.

It just creaks and groans in the night, like oaks swaying in the wind, I thought all old desks did that. 

[Maledicted]

The Unitek K151Ls seem to be relatively cheap, and those are built like tanks. Metal plate, metal lower casing, even metal wire feet. I think they have NKRO as well, although I should really test that. They even have XT/AT switches. They come with "vintage" black switches, but I plan to swap mine for Kailh box switches eventually. The layout is AT, unfortunately.

F77 #191 is mine, so if there's nothing before I get it, I'll let you know what I think.

I don't think that your current desk is actually ok with it. I think it is suffering silently, praying for death. Those things may snap an IKEA desk in half. That would be a shame, the medieval organ looks great.

I'd love to see a Unitek K151L with Box Navies in it, that'd be a hell of a keyboard I'd say.

oooh! I'd love to hear what you think of it. From what you tell me we seem to share most of our keyboard tastes, so it'd be quite a bit if I got your opinion on the matter.

It just creaks and groans in the night, like oaks swaying in the wind, I thought all old desks did that. 

That was my thinking. They're not extremely sought-after, and were made by a company that nobody cares about, but actually subcontracted out to another company that nobody cares about, so swapping the switches wouldn't be sacrilege. Nice thick, hollow upper casing, on top of all of the steel everywhere, should make it a thunderous keyboard with some thick clicks. It actually makes it kind of sad that they wasted its earthquake potential on linear switches. They're cake to take apart too. I'll just have to decide which keyboards to prioritize. I have already put box navies into a k65, and box jades into this TG3 cop keyboard ... too many keyboards to mod, too little switches to put in them.

I'll keep you informed. I'm getting the zinc-cased one of course, since who would go with boring aluminum when given the choice? I need to be able to use it as armor, or a wheel block, etc, in an emergency, afterall.

You know, if you wall mount the monitors, you might be able to add another Model M to the medieval organ. It probably already really needs some steel crossbars for reinforcement as it is though.

[pabile]

...

I still do not understand the usefulness of a 60% keyboards, I at least need arrows. Also the excuse of space saving simply is invalid for me. If you do not have space for at least a ten-keyless, where is your monitor?

have you tried using space as Fn? my workhorse is a conventional 60% and i work with a lot of spreadsheets. never needed anything bigger than 60% so far. my arrow cluster is like so:
(Attachment Link)

Do you mix a lot of hotkeys with the arrow keys when navigating a spreadsheet? Sometimes I'm using shift, sometimes ctrl, sometimes both (at least in Google Sheets, which is used a lot at work). Throwing yet another key to press into the works is a no-go as far as I'm concerned. a 75% isn't so much bigger that it makes any difference.

yes, i do use them a lot. apologies for the image i posted is incomplete. f-row and all modifiers are present in that layer. i had a lot of convenience since i moved to 60%, the arrow cluster becomes too far for me now. i also have a 3rd layer, caps lock+fn, that opens numpad under 789uiojkl et al plus the mouse keys under WASD. moving my right hand to use my mouse becomes way way less than before. i can recreate configuration file if you wish to try it out.

[jacethesaltsculptor]

That was my thinking. They're not extremely sought-after, and were made by a company that nobody cares about, but actually subcontracted out to another company that nobody cares about, so swapping the switches wouldn't be sacrilege. Nice thick, hollow upper casing, on top of all of the steel everywhere, should make it a thunderous keyboard with some thick clicks. It actually makes it kind of sad that they wasted its earthquake potential on linear switches. They're cake to take apart too. I'll just have to decide which keyboards to prioritize. I have already put box navies into a k65, and box jades into this TG3 cop keyboard ... too many keyboards to mod, too little switches to put in them.

I'll keep you informed. I'm getting the zinc-cased one of course, since who would go with boring aluminum when given the choice? I need to be able to use it as armor, or a wheel block, etc, in an emergency, afterall.

You know, if you wall mount the monitors, you might be able to add another Model M to the medieval organ. It probably already really needs some steel crossbars for reinforcement as it is though.

I'd want to hear a video of just the popping thunder it'd create. I feel like it'd be probably pound for pound, one of the loudest and clickiest possible keyboards. I really wonder if it would amplify or stop the ping. (My F122 is surprisingly not very pingy.) Should you find time and switches to devote to them, please take pictures throughout the process, I'd love to see it.

I keep looking at the website and keep debating, I really think I'll get in on the next round as they are just so cool. Aluminum? Pfff, Zinc all the way! I don't feel safe unless my keyboard weighs as much as the wheels on my car. We need protection in these heady times.

I thought about it, but what you can't see in the picture is a shelf of knick-knacks that I keep above my monitors, I really need to find a wall shelf for them so I can free my desk of a shelf on it's back. That'd make a huge difference. I probably should add more Rebar, the last two snapped last night, They just don't make steel like they used to.

[Maledicted]

I'd want to hear a video of just the popping thunder it'd create. I feel like it'd be probably pound for pound, one of the loudest and clickiest possible keyboards. I really wonder if it would amplify or stop the ping. (My F122 is surprisingly not very pingy.) Should you find time and switches to devote to them, please take pictures throughout the process, I'd love to see it.

I keep looking at the website and keep debating, I really think I'll get in on the next round as they are just so cool. Aluminum? Pfff, Zinc all the way! I don't feel safe unless my keyboard weighs as much as the wheels on my car. We need protection in these heady times.

I thought about it, but what you can't see in the picture is a shelf of knick-knacks that I keep above my monitors, I really need to find a wall shelf for them so I can free my desk of a shelf on it's back. That'd make a huge difference. I probably should add more Rebar, the last two snapped last night, They just don't make steel like they used to.

I would need a fancy microphone. I will convert at least one of them to thick clicks for sure though. I have two of them because I liked how beefy the first was. I think one interesting thing about that is my box navy K65 noticeably pings with almost every keypress, and that's an exposed aluminum plate. I'm not sure how much of that is the nature of thick clicks and how much is slamming the caps against the plate with such heavy springs.

They're not going to be made forever, and finding an original zinc-cased F will be ... fun, down the road. Well, yeah. If you're ever caught in an f5 tornado, you could just cling to your F77 to keep from being swept into the air.

I have two monitors mounted to my desk surface with some of those gas spring arms. Another is mounted directly to a vertical slab of whatever wood-like substance this is, since it is one of those tiered corner desks. So, I really have 3 monitors mounted to my desk without taking up really any of the desk's surface. That's reserved for a bunch of junk that doesn't need to be there, of course.

You could make a concrete form and pour a new desk. That should handle the stress, hopefully.

[Findecanor]

"QMK-compatible" is not a feature !!!

[fohat.digs]

Aluminum? Pfff, Zinc all the way!

They're not going to be made forever, and finding an original zinc-cased F will be ... fun, down the road.

When I took my F-107 case to the metal shop to have it shot-blasted and anodized, I was assuming that it was aluminum.

After working with it for quite a while, they concluded that it was probably a rather low-grade zamak and that it would not be consistent enough in surface color and texture to do anything with except paint or powder coat. I discussed that in my guide.

[Maledicted]

When I took my F-107 case to the metal shop to have it shot-blasted and anodized, I was assuming that it was aluminum.

After working with it for quite a while, they concluded that it was probably a rather low-grade zamak and that it would not be consistent enough in surface color and texture to do anything with except paint or powder coat. I discussed that in my guide.

Interesting. So the reproductions are made of a higher quality material to boot? That's a beautiful F-107 by the way. I'm jealous.

[fohat.digs]

No idea about the new ones.

In reality, it really doesn't matter that much about the metal unless you want it exposed or anodized. Metal is far stronger and more rigid than plastic, it is like how people obsess about a Model M bolt mod - you are replacing little stalks of plastic with steel screws that are orders of magnitude harder and stronger - you are changing it dramatically. 

[jacethesaltsculptor]

I would need a fancy microphone. I will convert at least one of them to thick clicks for sure though. I have two of them because I liked how beefy the first was. I think one interesting thing about that is my box navy K65 noticeably pings with almost every keypress, and that's an exposed aluminum plate. I'm not sure how much of that is the nature of thick clicks and how much is slamming the caps against the plate with such heavy springs.

They're not going to be made forever, and finding an original zinc-cased F will be ... fun, down the road. Well, yeah. If you're ever caught in an f5 tornado, you could just cling to your F77 to keep from being swept into the air.

I have two monitors mounted to my desk surface with some of those gas spring arms. Another is mounted directly to a vertical slab of whatever wood-like substance this is, since it is one of those tiered corner desks. So, I really have 3 monitors mounted to my desk without taking up really any of the desk's surface. That's reserved for a bunch of junk that doesn't need to be there, of course.

You could make a concrete form and pour a new desk. That should handle the stress, hopefully.

In time, I bought myself a beecaster from France on Ebay, it sounds really fancy when I put it that way. It was 100 bucks and wound up being the best mic I've ever used, even compared to a blue that I had briefly. (Had to sell it for rent, the Beecaster stays with me, it's just an excellent mic.) But the advice I'd say is, look up old high quality mics from companies that collapsed and get those, it makes a huge difference on the wallet. Neat is still barely around, but even their highest end microphones are 100 bucks now.

I plan on getting two more 4K monitors for my desk of the same make as my primary and mounting them on the wall, so I have all three future ready. (I'll ride this wayy into the time better tech is available, since this is still really new to me anywho.)

Concrete is a very viable material, with steel supports inside, and meshing, I should be able to get a few months out of that.

No idea about the new ones.

In reality, it really doesn't matter that much about the metal unless you want it exposed or anodized. Metal is far stronger and more rigid than plastic, it is like how people obsess about a Model M bolt mod - you are replacing little stalks of plastic with steel screws that are orders of magnitude harder and stronger - you are changing it dramatically. 

If you don't mind me asking, since you've been around a long time, what is your opinion on needing a bolt mod? I do know some really do need it, but is it a prevalent as everyone seems to make it out?

[treeleaf64]

If you don't mind me asking, since you've been around a long time, what is your opinion on needing a bolt mod? I do know some really do need it, but is it a prevalent as everyone seems to make it out?

Never used an M, but I know it makes a huge difference!! It is much more tactile, and feels more snappy and responsive, from what I've heard.

[fohat.digs]

what is your opinion on needing a bolt mod?

I like it because it gives me control and I can "tune" the feel the way I want it. After having done a dozen or so, it becomes a relatively rote task that is not too painful, although it is always fussy and sometimes you wish you hadn't.

There is no number or percentage of broken "rivets" that says the repair is necessary, although if there are a handful missing in a localized area you will probably have some dead or spongy-feeling keys.

For the timid, you can simply drill a partial hole and send a machine screw in from the back side to make a solid repair, although you will have to split the internal assembly completely apart if you want to thoroughly clean everything.

And lastly, as I have said many times before: you don't need to torque the screws down hard. "Light finger snug" is almost always plenty and if you tighten down the screws the feel usually gets worse, not better, in my opinion.

[treeleaf64]

what is your opinion on needing a bolt mod?

I like it because it gives me control and I can "tune" the feel the way I want it. After having done a dozen or so, it becomes a relatively rote task that is not too painful, although it is always fussy and sometimes you wish you hadn't.

There is no number or percentage of broken "rivets" that says the repair is necessary, although if there are a handful missing in a localized area you will probably have some dead or spongy-feeling keys.

For the timid, you can simply drill a partial hole and send a machine screw in from the back side to make a solid repair, although you will have to split the internal assembly completely apart if you want to thoroughly clean everything.

And lastly, as I have said many times before: you don't need to torque the screws down hard. "Light finger snug" is almost always plenty and if you tighten down the screws the feel usually gets worse, not better, in my opinion.

It's like desoldering stuff. Takes a long time, but is worth it in the end.

[Steezus]

what is your opinion on needing a bolt mod?

I like it because it gives me control and I can "tune" the feel the way I want it. After having done a dozen or so, it becomes a relatively rote task that is not too painful, although it is always fussy and sometimes you wish you hadn't.

There is no number or percentage of broken "rivets" that says the repair is necessary, although if there are a handful missing in a localized area you will probably have some dead or spongy-feeling keys.

For the timid, you can simply drill a partial hole and send a machine screw in from the back side to make a solid repair, although you will have to split the internal assembly completely apart if you want to thoroughly clean everything.

And lastly, as I have said many times before: you don't need to torque the screws down hard. "Light finger snug" is almost always plenty and if you tighten down the screws the feel usually gets worse, not better, in my opinion.

It's like desoldering stuff. Takes a long time, but is worth it in the end.

Desoldering doesn't take that long at all if you have the right tools for the job.

[jacethesaltsculptor]

what is your opinion on needing a bolt mod?

I like it because it gives me control and I can "tune" the feel the way I want it. After having done a dozen or so, it becomes a relatively rote task that is not too painful, although it is always fussy and sometimes you wish you hadn't.

There is no number or percentage of broken "rivets" that says the repair is necessary, although if there are a handful missing in a localized area you will probably have some dead or spongy-feeling keys.

For the timid, you can simply drill a partial hole and send a machine screw in from the back side to make a solid repair, although you will have to split the internal assembly completely apart if you want to thoroughly clean everything.

And lastly, as I have said many times before: you don't need to torque the screws down hard. "Light finger snug" is almost always plenty and if you tighten down the screws the feel usually gets worse, not better, in my opinion.

Thank you, your opinion on it means quite a bit to me. I'll need to sit down with a friend on one soon enough then, because there is a spot on his Model M that is feeling off.

[Maledicted]

In time, I bought myself a beecaster from France on Ebay, it sounds really fancy when I put it that way. It was 100 bucks and wound up being the best mic I've ever used, even compared to a blue that I had briefly. (Had to sell it for rent, the Beecaster stays with me, it's just an excellent mic.) But the advice I'd say is, look up old high quality mics from companies that collapsed and get those, it makes a huge difference on the wallet. Neat is still barely around, but even their highest end microphones are 100 bucks now.

I plan on getting two more 4K monitors for my desk of the same make as my primary and mounting them on the wall, so I have all three future ready. (I'll ride this wayy into the time better tech is available, since this is still really new to me anywho.)

Concrete is a very viable material, with steel supports inside, and meshing, I should be able to get a few months out of that.

I don't do any streaming, and rarely record video of any kind, so I have never really had an interest in extremely crisp/precise microphones. Maybe for keyboards though, just maybe. I do love old stuff though. I found a cool old set of Pioneer headphones from the 70s at a Goodwill once, in the original storage case, with a cloth-wrapped wire running to a quarter inch stereo connector. There was a short in the cable somewhere so I slightly modified the original cable hole to mount a modern 3.5mm jack. Those headphones sound great, especially with classical/retro music.

I still have 1920x1080 displays myself. My primary Samsung display I got in a Black Friday sale in something like 2009 or 2010. I'm waiting to upgrade until I build a new computer ... in a Dell XPS 720 chassis, which is going to take a lot of modification, so I haven't gotten around to it.

Desoldering doesn't take that long at all if you have the right tools for the job.

Agreed. Even with a cheapo manual pump, it can go faster than you think, even if it is still irritatingly tedious. I'm so glad I got a Hakko FR-301. Too many switches to swap to be playing around with those spring-loaded toys.

[mode]

Cherry stabilisers feel truly awful.

I've always chosen costar as I don't care about rattle, but dug out a G80-3000 I had kicking about and hot damn do all the stabilised keys feel like total garbage.

[Maledicted]

Cherry stabilisers feel truly awful.

I've always chosen costar as I don't care about rattle, but dug out a G80-3000 I had kicking about and hot damn do all the stabilised keys feel like total garbage.

I actually wouldn't disagree with that at all. Costars do feel nice, not that I necessarily feel that Cherry ones feel terrible, but certainly not as nice as costars.

[mode]

Cherry stabilisers feel truly awful.

I've always chosen costar as I don't care about rattle, but dug out a G80-3000 I had kicking about and hot damn do all the stabilised keys feel like total garbage.

I actually wouldn't disagree with that at all. Costars do feel nice, not that I necessarily feel that Cherry ones feel terrible, but certainly not as nice as costars.

I'm giving the G80 to a coworker, but I still couldn't help but take it apart and clip mod them, which did notably improve the feel, but I still overwhelmingly prefer costar, or alps stabs.

[DALExSNAIL]

Cherry stabilisers feel truly awful.

I've always chosen costar as I don't care about rattle, but dug out a G80-3000 I had kicking about and hot damn do all the stabilised keys feel like total garbage.

I actually wouldn't disagree with that at all. Costars do feel nice, not that I necessarily feel that Cherry ones feel terrible, but certainly not as nice as costars.

I'm giving the G80 to a coworker, but I still couldn't help but take it apart and clip mod them, which did notably improve the feel, but I still overwhelmingly prefer costar, or alps stabs.

I've at no point in time been able to tell a genuinely noticable enough difference in feel between costar and cherry, that I would choose one over the other based on that alone. However I will always choose prepped/modded cherry stabs over costar for both sound and convenience.

Costars aren't nearly the annoyance they were for me when i got my first mech, but every time i have to reseat a spacebar on one of my filcos i wince a bit inside for good measure.

Sound wise i can get them almost dead on where i like them, but no matter what i do, or how much dialectric grease i use, there's always and initial "click" with every stroke. It's tiny after lube, but because everything else on the board sounds great, it emphasizes it heavy.

Oh and gmk/doubleshot cherry being loose on them is a bummer. Not a fan of taping my stems, zzzzzzzz

[Maledicted]

I'm giving the G80 to a coworker, but I still couldn't help but take it apart and clip mod them, which did notably improve the feel, but I still overwhelmingly prefer costar, or alps stabs.

Alps stabilizers look very similar to the ones on a board I have with Futaba switches. Those things are freaking annoying to try to put back together. I imagine Alps did a better job of it though, haven't taken apart any of my Alps boards yet. I'll have to compare the costars to them.

I've at no point in time been able to tell a genuinely noticable enough difference in feel between costar and cherry, that I would choose one over the other based on that alone. However I will always choose prepped/modded cherry stabs over costar for both sound and convenience.

Costars aren't nearly the annoyance they were for me when i got my first mech, but every time i have to reseat a spacebar on one of my filcos i wince a bit inside for good measure.

Sound wise i can get them almost dead on where i like them, but no matter what i do, or how much dialectric grease i use, there's always and initial "click" with every stroke. It's tiny after lube, but because everything else on the board sounds great, it emphasizes it heavy.

Oh and gmk/doubleshot cherry being loose on them is a bummer. Not a fan of taping my stems, zzzzzzzz

Interesting, I haven't had any problems with them coming off of a spacebar or anything. I used them with Cherry MX Blues until I upgraded the Das Pro 4 to Kailh Box Navies, so whatever noise they make is probably entirely drowned out now. lol. I do have a brown switch Rosewill with them I could use to try to see what you mean if I hadn't stolen the inserts for the Das' new caps, since Das apparently likes to super glue theirs into the caps, for whatever reason. My keyboards aren't loud enough as it is, I don't need any fancy lube.

In fact, Harley Davidson should have a go at mechanical keyboards.

[mode]

Annoyance of assembly doesn't bother me given I clean boards about once a year, I just use some blunt electronics tweezers to slip the wire in when I do it.

[Sintpinty]

Cherry stabilisers feel truly awful.

I've always chosen costar as I don't care about rattle, but dug out a G80-3000 I had kicking about and hot damn do all the stabilised keys feel like total garbage.

I actually wouldn't disagree with that at all. Costars do feel nice, not that I necessarily feel that Cherry ones feel terrible, but certainly not as nice as costars.

I'm giving the G80 to a coworker, but I still couldn't help but take it apart and clip mod them, which did notably improve the feel, but I still overwhelmingly prefer costar, or alps stabs.

Kind of you to do that

[Nonnegaard]

I'm using some box navies for typing at home, but I still don't mind using even Cherry MX Red. Browns just feel terrible to me, and aren't tactile enough to be worth being tactile at all in light of this. I certainly haven't tried lubed ones though.

Again, they're only really meant to be barely noticeably tactile, since they were originally designed as an "ergo" option.  Lubing them or just wearing them in for a few months makes them much nicer to use though.

Exactly this. A lot of people seem to miss the point of MX browns. They aren't meant to be the most tactile thing in the world nor the smoothest (blame cherry molds for that), but properly tuned/lubed they're some of the nicest switch for typists with good form.

I understanding disliking MX browns if you've tried all the popular switches plus their tuned/lubed counterparts, at that point it's just personal preference. It is, however, a bit sad to see people bash brown switches just because they're readily available and not as tactile as some other existing switches (and somehow, making them bad? lol).

I genuinely know linear switches that are more tactile than MX Brown.

chyros moment

chyros moment

chyros moment