Another quiet mechanical keyboard thread

[mkawa]

PM or email imav to get a vendor subforum. we love giving vendors visibility here, so there shouldn't be an issue.

and yes, rosewill is newegg's house brand. those boards are ODM'd to hit that price point, and unfortunately it does show in some ways (not that they're bad deals, but they're not rugged and/or original enough for some).

quite interested in the new switches!

regarding force charts, if you have an accurate measurement device (and presumably you guys do), one thing the community could really use is some nice empirical force charts of common switches. it would be a huge contribution that we would be eternally grateful for

[Matias]

I never meant to be the slightest way mean or whatever to him. I'm just interested in his thoughts, and tried to hold a conversation, as I*have much respect for him and his products. My words are only driven by curiosity.

If I*appeared to have any other intention, please excuse myself, and allow me to blame the fact I'm not a native english speaker. Even though I'm perfectly able to express myself, I don't have enough practice to perceive the little details which give out the tone of my phrases. That, or it was just clumsiness and/or social ineptie from my side.

No offence taken.

The deals you saw were probably temporary promotions, during seasonal periods like Christmas or Back-to-School.  If the normal prices are that low, then the item is likely of very low quality, or perhaps not even genuine.  I know there are companies in China making fake Cherry switches.  If the price is too low, you may not be getting the real deal.

[TexasFlood]

Both the Rosewill and Cherry 3800 are pieces of crap.  For every defective Filco there are 10 Rosewill's with snapped USB connectors and mushy switches (despite everyone assuming the same factory does the same number of QC checks on both boards.)

Thank you. That's sort of what I wanted to know. I wasn't aware of those differences. I've only heard positive reviews from those boards.

I have two Rosewills, an original blue and a new red. They're both fine.  mini-USB connectors probably aren't robust enough to use for something like that but so far mine is fine and I don't expect to have a problem if I'm careful. These seem to be love it or hate it boards, few in the middle. I love mine.

[Matias]

PM or email imav to get a vendor subforum. we love giving vendors visibility here, so there shouldn't be an issue.

Thanks, will do!

and yes, rosewill is newegg's house brand. those boards are ODM'd to hit that price point, and unfortunately it does show in some ways (not that they're bad deals, but they're not rugged and/or original enough for some).

Ah okay, I didn't know that.  That's very interesting...

Basically, this means that they don't know how to design keyboards themselves.  They just contract with a factory to rebrand one of the factory's designs.  This is risky, because factories are rarely any good at design -- there's always some flaw or mistake they don't bother fixing.

Many factories don't care very much, and if the customer isn't knowledgeable enough to know what can go wrong, bad things can happen and you get very uneven quality control.  One production run could be perfect, while another could be a total disaster.

The bottom line is that they need to watch their vendors like hawks, and companies who don't know how to do that, often have their customers suffering the consequences.

quite interested in the new switches!

regarding force charts, if you have an accurate measurement device (and presumably you guys do), one thing the community could really use is some nice empirical force charts of common switches. it would be a huge contribution that we would be eternally grateful for

Okay, I'll see what we can do.  There are a lot of different switches out there, but we can certainly include the usual suspects.

[Djuzuh]

Thank you for your complementary information.

Also, will the european distribution for the new boards be assured by the keyboard compagny ?

[mkawa]

Ah okay, I didn't know that.  That's very interesting...

Basically, this means that they don't know how to design keyboards themselves.  They just contract with a factory to rebrand one of the factory's designs.  This is risky, because factories are rarely any good at design -- there's always some flaw or mistake they don't bother fixing.

Many factories don't care very much, and if the customer isn't knowledgeable enough to know what can go wrong, bad things can happen and you get very uneven quality control.  One production run could be perfect, while another could be a total disaster.

The bottom line is that they need to watch their vendors like hawks, and companies who don't know how to do that, often have their customers suffering the consequences.

while this is true, we often recommend the rosewill around these parts because the ODM is costar, the same company that builds filco boards, and generally a pretty reliable manufacturer.

that said, the filco and rosewill designs are not identical, and the subtle differences in build and QC do add up.

[Matias]

Thank you for your complementary information.

Also, will the european distribution for the new boards be assured by the keyboard compagny ?

Yes, I expect they will when they eventually hear about it.  :-)

[Matias]

while this is true, we often recommend the rosewill around these parts because the ODM is costar, the same company that builds filco boards, and generally a pretty reliable manufacturer.

that said, the filco and rosewill designs are not identical, and the subtle differences in build and QC do add up.

Costar doesn't own a factory, so how good they are depends a lot on which factory they're using.

I know that the factory Costar uses for Filco is very good.  I don't know which factory they use for Rosewill.  If it's not the same one, that may account for the quality differences.

[mkawa]

oh, i see

i was under the impression that costar was the trade name of the factory. this is very much new information to us.

i've only owned a filco, personally, and it was pretty awesome, so i don't really know, but people have said good things about other costar ODMd boards so i assumed...

[Matias]

oh, i see

i was under the impression that costar was the trade name of the factory. this is very much new information to us.

This sort of thing happens a lot more in Taiwan than in China.

[Matias]

So Matias, when do you think the earliest you will be able to post pictures of this new board?

It'll look like the Tactile Pro, but a different colour -- black for PC, silver with black keys for Mac.

[variant]

Will the keyboard ping and how will the orange switches feel compared to the Cherry MX brown switches?

[rknize]

Can we start a fresh topic for this?  This thread has been thoroughly hijaaked as it is.

Edit: I'm mainly suggesting this because it's an interesting discussion that's been hidden in a thread about a fairly typical question.

[Djuzuh]

Matias seems to ask for a vendor forum, so we'll be able to displace this there \o/

[rknize]

In the meantime, he could start a new thread in keyboards and the mods can move these posts over there.  If he ends up with a vendor forum, then that thread could be moved there.

There are probably others who would be interested in this and wouldn't think to click on "another quiet mechanical keyboard thread".  

[Djuzuh]

yeah, like me !

Thank god for the spy and the link ripster put up on reddit and DT.

EDIT: thanks rknize, fixed it.

[rknize]

DeskHack?

[Matias]

Will the keyboard ping and how will the orange switches feel compared to the Cherry MX brown switches?

It won't ping.  We eliminated the ping.  They are quieter and more tactile than the MX brown switches, but still feel pretty light.  If you like tactile, they feel better than the Cherrys.

[variant]

It won't ping.  We eliminated the ping.  They are quieter and more tactile than the MX brown switches, but still feel pretty light.  If you like tactile, they feel better than the Cherrys.

I am neutral on tactile feel as I am new to mechanical keyboards and don't know what to make of the various switches. What do you mean by light? How much force to bottom out compared to the MX brown switches?

How much will these keyboards cost?

[Matias]

Can we start a fresh topic for this?  This thread has been thoroughly hijaaked as it is.

Edit: I'm mainly suggesting this because it's an interesting discussion that's been hidden in a thread about a fairly typical question.

Well, normally I would agree, but neither the switches nor the keyboards are available yet, so it seems a bit premature.

Also, I don't want to answer all the same questions again in another thread.

[Matias]

I am neutral on tactile feel as I am new to mechanical keyboards and don't know what to make of the various switches. What do you mean by light? How much force to bottom out compared to the MX brown switches?

How much will these keyboards cost?

You're asking questions I've already answered in this thread.  You should have a look at my earlier posts.

MSRP will be $149 but online resellers generally sell for less.  A Google search on the old Tactile Pro will give you an idea of what the new boards will cost...

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?cid=14252232372741270049

[Daniel Beardsmore]

It won't ping.  We eliminated the ping.

Awwwww … Not even a teensy little bit of ping? :°(

I am neutral on tactile feel as I am new to mechanical keyboards and don't know what to make of the various switches. What do you mean by light? How much force to bottom out compared to the MX brown switches?

MX brown is … strange. It's a weird wannabe-linear affair. It's definitely not linear, but it's a fence-sitter between linear and tactile.

The only keyboard I've used that gets the the tactility balance right is Topre variable: it's the perfect medium weight, smooth travel, smooth tactile point, and soft landing for anyone who bottoms out the switches. The down sides include very few keycap options, ridiculous price tag, and dominess – I've gone back to MX browns out of preference for a "clear" feel instead of the inevitable mushiness of even the world's best domes. However, my fingers and hands in general are lately feeling really hammered and jarred-to-death from Cherry, so maybe I need to revert to Topre for a while. I'm concerned that Cherry MX is what's giving me pain in my hands, as it co-incided with switching to mechanical keyboards two years ago. I'm not sure I'm suited to anything but domes :/

Cherry MX blue is slightly (but not usefully) stiffer than brown, and more tactile, but it's noisy, and that's a deal breaker for many, and the click sound is a bit pathetic. MX clears, apparently now out of production, seem to be the same as complicated black ALPS (Dell AT10* series), in that they're no more tactile, just stiffer, but black ALPS don't have that clean feeling of Cherry MX and clicky ALPS; instead, they feel mushy like domes, and they're barely any more tactile than MX brown. I don't think clears are that bad, but I haven't tried them yet.

My hope is that Matias tactile ALPS have the sharp, clear feeling of clicky ALPS, something that no-one has managed to achieve thus far in a tactile, non-clicky switch. Ideally I'd suggest 55 g for that force curve, but it's 60 g so I'll have to wait to see whether the force is excessive.

Ultimately I'm hoping for a switch with the smooth tactile curve of domes/buckling spring without the mush of domes or the excessive stiffness of BS, but that could be many years away. ALPS is the most brutal switch on the planet, after all

[variant]

I have been thinking on what type of keyboard would definitely fit my needs as I game a lot. I decided on brown or red Cherry switches simply because they weren't loud and required less force than black switches. It ended up being brown since the keyboard I bought is currently only available in brown so that is all I have to compare other switches to. I do like the feel of the brown switches. I generally bottom out when I type simply from habit of using rubber dome. One thing I've noticed though is that I am not bottoming out as much despite only using this keyboard for a day. Right now my biggest concern is the loud pinging noise I get on a handful of my keys and I am on the border of RMAing it because of it.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Within each switch is one (buckling spring), two (Cherry MX) or three (ALPS) springs, so it's to be expected that you'll get ringing sounds from the switches. Matias's concern was that the TP3 uses Fukka ALPS switches that have the worst ping of all, but I got out my TP3 earlier and it didn't bother me. A bit of ping gives the board a nice resonant metallic sound, although the Cherry MX brown ping isn't the best.

You may get lucky if you return the board, but if not you've just blown their profit margin trying to fight the inevitability that most switches make metallic, springy noises.

I'm worried that Matias have eliminated ping entirely, because I was annoyed that my XM ALPS FILCO Zero had no ping at all, and it sounded too "dry" and dead. I will be sad if there's no ping.

[variant]

He did say he eliminated the ping. I would assume that means completely.

[TexasFlood]

He did say he eliminated the ping. I would assume that means completely.

I would agree, and I won't miss the ping personally.  If I want ping I can use my bucking spring, I want a nice keyboard that is quiet as possible with good tactile feel.

[Matias]

I'm worried that Matias have eliminated ping entirely, because I was annoyed that my XM ALPS FILCO Zero had no ping at all, and it sounded too "dry" and dead. I will be sad if there's no ping.

You may be sad.  :-)

However, the TP3 is still available in the UK layout, and it has the ping.

[mkawa]

this seems like a great discussion to inaugurate the new matias vendor forum with!

http://geekhack.org/forumdisplay.php?103-Matias

edgar, would you like to do the honors?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

He did say he eliminated the ping. I would assume that means completely.

It can be interpreted to mean that the keyboard now sounds like pure plastic, or that only the excessive ringing ("ping") has been eliminated. "ping" seems to refer to the sound of switches when they're loud enough to be distinctly noticeable, i.e. the point when it crosses a person's annoyance threshold; a lack of "ping" doesn't mean that the sound isn't there – it is.

[Matias]

It can be interpreted to mean that the keyboard now sounds like pure plastic, or that only the excessive ringing ("ping") has been eliminated. "ping" seems to refer to the sound of switches when they're loud enough to be distinctly noticeable, i.e. the point when it crosses a person's annoyance threshold; a lack of "ping" doesn't mean that the sound isn't there – it is.

It seems like everybody has a different definition of "ping"...

The ping I mean is that residual ringing sound you get when you type on a Fukka board with above average intensity.  The spring wires are too thin, so all the 100+ springs in each switch on the keyboard vibrate simultaneously for a while after you do a keystroke.

Normally only the key you press should make a noise.  The chorus of springs is not supposed to happen.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Phew

[Matias]

this seems like a great discussion to inaugurate the new matias vendor forum with!

http://geekhack.org/forumdisplay.php?103-Matias

edgar, would you like to do the honors?

Okay, I've started another thread in the new Matias Vendor Forum, with a brief summary of what's been covered so far...

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?32769-New-switches-from-Matias-2-years-in-the-making

[Resaebiunne]

Alright, so I got my Rosewill RK9000 with cherry MX browns.  So far, I like it!  It types similar to the AT101W, but it's a bit more smooth and the keys are a lot lighter.  The key presses are definitely lighter than my Model M too.  It's actually kind of interesting: because of the apparent difference in key weight, it seems I'm making a bit more typos than normal and my typing speed isn't the same as with my other boards.  As for noise though, it's less noisy than the AT101W and the model M.  It is still noisier than my cheap rubber dome at work.  So, the question remains as to whether or not it will pass the decibel test.  I'll bring the board to work on Monday and find out.  If I could learn to type quickly without bottoming out, this keyboard would be very silent, but with the lighter keypresses, I'm not sure that's gonna happen.  Am I happy with my purchase?  Yes.  This is the first mechanical keyboard I've bought new, and I'm sure my collection will grow in time.

[rknize]

Welcome back, OP.  

Your experience is pretty close to mine and others.  After a few days I found I could type faster overall, though I also mistyped more than normal.  The light keys are not forgiving in that way.  After a while and after acquiring a few other boards, you'll find that you adapt to the different feel of different boards pretty quickly...like within a few minutes.

It's like learning to ride a motorcycle.  It's different than a bicycle, but you still remember how to ride the bicycle afterwards.

[TotalChaos]

The new switches are lighter than the TP3, and feel more consistent.  Fukkas are rated at 70±25 gf -- which means they can be as heavy as 95 gf and as light as 45 gf.  Not the greatest.

Our new switches are rated at 60±5 gf -- which means they're between 55 and 65 gf.  That's just enough to hold the weight of your fingers on the keyboard.

If it's so light that it doesn't have enough resistance to hold the weight of your hands, then YOU are actually exerting force to prevent the keys going down -- which is VERY bad.  You get tired quicker and are more susceptible to injury.

Thank you very very very very very much for having enough brainpower available to you that you actually think about ergonomics.  This places you 30 lightyears ahead of most ppl.

OTOH please don't get a big head about my compliment as I am quite certain that you have not thought about ergonomics nearly as much as you should. 

This is why I don't like the lighter Cherrys.  Unless you have really light hands, they don't provide enough resistence to hold them up.

I have never had a problem with accidentally activating keys on my Cherry MX Red keyboard.

I did a test just now:

I gently placed my hands on the keyboard then let them relax and place all of their weight into the keys.  Text editor running.
Out of 5 tests I only actuated a key once: The i key actuated and repeated across the screen.

The reason a key sometimes actuates is that my hand is not perfectly flat so sometimes there can be a pressure point that is enough to actuate.

[TotalChaos]

Basically, this means that they don't know how to design keyboards themselves.  They just contract with a factory to rebrand one of the factory's designs.  This is risky, because factories are rarely any good at design -- there's always some flaw or mistake they don't bother fixing.

Many factories don't care very much, and if the customer isn't knowledgeable enough to know what can go wrong, bad things can happen and you get very uneven quality control.  One production run could be perfect, while another could be a total disaster.

The bottom line is that they need to watch their vendors like hawks, and companies who don't know how to do that, often have their customers suffering the consequences.

2 intelligent comments from the same manufacturer!  Respect*=2;
Thank you for knowing this.
I was trying to explain this in another vendor subforum and all I got was ridicule from some (idiotic) users.

quite interested in the new switches!

regarding force charts, if you have an accurate measurement device (and presumably you guys do), one thing the community could really use is some nice empirical force charts of common switches. it would be a huge contribution that we would be eternally grateful for

Okay, I'll see what we can do.  There are a lot of different switches out there, but we can certainly include the usual suspects.

I need force graphs of your switches.

I won't demand you to make graphs of other ppl's switches, but it would be more scientific that way, in case there are any discrpancies between your measuring device and the other guy's.

I do, however, demand force graphs of at least your own switches.  Published by yourself or some random user or whoever.  I can't possibly be expected to buy a stack of keyboards unless I know the force characteristics of the switches involved.

Thank you.

[TotalChaos]

while this is true, we often recommend the rosewill around these parts

Are you saying you have a Rosewill and you still recommend them?  Why?

Is it because you are proficient at soldering so fixing a defective product is easy for you?

My advice is: if a person is going to buy a Rosewill then don't pay over $70.00 for it.  That is what I paid for mine.  Free shipping. No tax.  I did it for Keyboard Science.

because the ODM is costar, the same company that builds filco boards, and generally a pretty reliable manufacturer.

that said, the filco and rosewill designs are not identical, and the subtle differences in build and QC do add up.

The differences between Filco and Rosewill are not subtle.  They are right there staring me in the face and annoying me 24 hours a day.

The Rosewill comes with the stupidest cable ever designed by a keyboard company.  Super specially custom made so that it places 10x the stress on your connector than any other cable.  At this very moment my USB port is supporting the weight of around 14 inches of cable when it should only be supporting the weight of a couple of inches at most.

Keep in mind that the last 6 inches that it is supporting is several inches away horizontally so there could be mechanical advantage effect going on.  Or maybe not.  Who knows.


And now I  shall say something very rude, revolutionary and crazy: I shall hijack this thread with an on-topic statement! 

My Rosewill with Cherry Reds is plenty quiet enough for me.  It is around the same quiet level as my worst rubberdome over membrane keyboard.  I am not saying my Rosewill is some super quiet keyboard.  I am just saying that it doesn't make excessive noise and I don't sit around thinking "OMG, I wish my keyboard was quieter!".

However if someone made a keyboard with a switch that was just as good as a Cherry Red, or better, and it made less noise, then I would certainly buy 1 or more of them and even pay extra for it.

I am all for the advancement of Keyboard Technology.

[TotalChaos]

Alright, so I got my Rosewill RK9000 with cherry MX browns.  ... As for noise though, it's less noisy than the AT101W and the model M.  It is still noisier than my cheap rubber dome at work.  So, the question remains as to whether or not it will pass the decibel test.  I'll bring the board to work on Monday and find out.  If I could learn to type quickly without bottoming out, this keyboard would be very silent, but with the lighter keypresses, I'm not sure that's gonna happen.

Did u succeed in learning to type without crashing?

I am trying to do the same thing.  I have not succeeded yet.  Maybe I am getting better...dunno.

[TotalChaos]

It's like learning to ride a motorcycle.  It's different than a bicycle, but you still remember how to ride the bicycle afterwards.

Does this mean you can switch between Qwerty, Colemak and Dvorak without probems?

[rowdy]

^ Probably not while he is riding his motorbike.

[rknize]

It's like learning to ride a motorcycle.  It's different than a bicycle, but you still remember how to ride the bicycle afterwards.

Does this mean you can switch between Qwerty, Colemak and Dvorak without probems?

Nope, that's not what that means in any way shape or form.