Author Topic: change layout from German QWERTZ to American QWERTY?? Stupid or good??  (Read 8751 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Phenix

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 591
  • Location: Germany
Hello.
Im thinking about using only qwerty in the future. (used qwertz my whole life(more than 15years)

Has anyone did it and can say something to it?
Writing 80% German, rest English.

was thinking about cause in Germany its hard to get mechanical keyboards(depents on model). but if its about 40% more expensive.
And to get high quality Keycaps/wrist rests/accessoures  U have to import it

I hope someone can help me.out
Winter is coming.

Offline azhdar

  • Praise the AZERTY god
  • Posts: 2435
  • Location: France
  • 65% Enlightened
Re: change layout from German QWERTZ to American QWERTY?? Stupid or good??
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 31 December 2015, 07:09:26 »
Imo that's a wierd idea, because you can have the best keycap on the market for ~50€ in german layout and the same one in "american qwerty" cost like 150-200€. I'm speaking of cherry dyesub keycaps.
Azerty Propagandiste

Offline davkol

  •  Post Editing Timeout
  • Posts: 4994
Re: change layout from German QWERTZ to American QWERTY?? Stupid or good??
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 31 December 2015, 07:48:03 »
That's a bunch of relatively unrelated issues, including
  • symbol arrangement,
  • ANSI versus ISO physical layout,
  • keycap legends.

You can have an US ANSI keyboard and still type in German QWERTZ (if you configure it in your OS' settings), except there's one physical key missing (the one in place of right half of left Shift key on ISO keyboards). Or the other way around. You'd have to touch type though, if you don't already do so, because the keycap legends wouldn't match.

I, for one, switched from Czech QWERTZ to an US layout, because of special-punctuation placement, that was an utter mess on the Czech standard layout.

Offline jdcarpe

  • * Curator
  • Posts: 8852
  • Location: Odessa, TX
  • Live long, and prosper.
Re: change layout from German QWERTZ to American QWERTY?? Stupid or good??
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 31 December 2015, 08:40:06 »
Imo that's a wierd idea, because you can have the best keycap on the market for ~50€ in german layout and the same one in "american qwerty" cost like 150-200€. I'm speaking of cherry dyesub keycaps.

Cherry dyesub are great, no doubt about that.

But with US ANSI, they can purchase any aftermarket keycap set on the market, with no thought to missing keycaps or mismatched legends.
KMAC :: LZ-GH :: WASD CODE :: WASD v2 :: GH60 :: Alps64 :: JD45 :: IBM Model M :: IBM 4704 "Pingmaster"

http://jd40.info :: http://jd45.info


in memoriam

"When I was a kid, I used to take things apart and never put them back together."

Offline Phenix

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 591
  • Location: Germany
Re: change layout from German QWERTZ to American QWERTY?? Stupid or good??
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 31 December 2015, 10:18:02 »
ok. I really dont know if im  able to work with "mismatched" legends.
I have think.over it.

Cause Im also looking for a new keyboard(mx blues) im not.sure.

Would a Ducky.shine 5 qwertz be better than an ergodox? Ive read many  about it,
btw for now im healthy

Can I get the  Cherry dyesub keycap to work with backlight?? where.can I get.them?

Winter is coming.

Offline TalkingTree

  • Posts: 2452
  • Location: Italy (142)
    • My projects
Re: change layout from German QWERTZ to American QWERTY?? Stupid or good??
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 31 December 2015, 10:28:56 »
I switched from ISO to ANSI and I would recommend that to anyone.
For sure you would get a better experience out of it with a custom firmware because you might want to reprogram some of the keys.

I modded my Filco TKL and split the 2u backspace into two 1u keys so to regain the lost key in the ISO->ANSI conversion. The pipe-backslash key is actually the backspace (as in the HHKB layout).
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline Phenix

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 591
  • Location: Germany
Re: change layout from German QWERTZ to American QWERTY?? Stupid or good??
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 01 January 2016, 09:50:16 »
Realfoexe looks interesting. But I think I stay with Shine 5 cause I dont know Topre. Maybr I try to get a cheap just to try out them cause I cant try anywhere
The idea with keys is interesting, will think over it
Winter is coming.

Offline r00tbox

  • Posts: 1
Re: change layout from German QWERTZ to American QWERTY?? Stupid or good??
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 02 January 2016, 06:16:39 »
I would recommend a did the switch for all my keyboards (Thinkpads and Mechs), well it's sometimes a litte bit hard to get hands an US ANSI Boards but in the end it's not that complicated ;-)

For me as a Linux guy and writing scripts/code it's a way better layout because the symbols have better placement for me (i still can type on ISO DE but not as fast as before when it comes to symbols)

I'm using US International Layout so i still have access to Umaltue äüö etc.


Offline PieterGen

  • Posts: 135
Re: change layout from German QWERTZ to American QWERTY?? Stupid or good??
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 02 January 2016, 13:29:47 »
Step 1: On your operating system, change your keyboard to US.
Step 2: Ignore the labels on the keys.
Step 3: There is no Step 3.

By the way, I can sort-of understand the reason behind Qwertz (Germany) and Azerty (France). Different language -> different letter use -> different layout. OK, so far so good. But, how much better are they then Qwerty? Especially Qwertz is only a marginal change. Why bother?  Azerty is more radical. A clever step is to put much used symbols on the number row, and put the numbers themselves on the Shift layer.

In neither Qwertz nor Azerty I don't understand why they changed (the rest of) the punctuation marks and symbols. Qwertz has  ( ) on the 8 and 9, instead of on Qwerty positions 9 and 0. Why ??  If you change, why not more radical, like to Dvorak or Colemak (English), to Bépo (French) or to Neo or AdNW (German) ?

Offline azhdar

  • Praise the AZERTY god
  • Posts: 2435
  • Location: France
  • 65% Enlightened
Re: change layout from German QWERTZ to American QWERTY?? Stupid or good??
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 02 January 2016, 13:35:54 »
Step 1: On your operating system, change your keyboard to US.
Step 2: Ignore the labels on the keys.
Step 3: There is no Step 3.

By the way, I can sort-of understand the reason behind Qwertz (Germany) and Azerty (France). Different language -> different letter use -> different layout. OK, so far so good. But, how much better are they then Qwerty? Especially Qwertz is only a marginal change. Why bother?  Azerty is more radical. A clever step is to put much used symbols on the number row, and put the numbers themselves on the Shift layer.

In neither Qwertz nor Azerty I don't understand why they changed (the rest of) the punctuation marks and symbols. Qwertz has  ( ) on the 8 and 9, instead of on Qwerty positions 9 and 0. Why ??  If you change, why not more radical, like to Dvorak or Colemak (English), to Bépo (French) or to Neo or AdNW (German) ?

on azerty, numbers are on the shift layer.
Azerty Propagandiste

Offline Olumin

  • Posts: 209
  • Location: "...that famous Texas part of Hamburg"
  • "Guy walks into a doctor's office..."
Re: change layout from German QWERTZ to American QWERTY?? Stupid or good??
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 03 January 2016, 18:07:17 »
I personally don't necessarily mind to use the Qwerty layout, but the ANSI physical arrangement of the enter-key, / \ key and backspace-key are driving me mad.

Its like they didn't know how to fill-out the gab above the ANSI enter key and just put a random symbol which nobody uses frequently and made the key bigger for no reason whatsoever apart from being big enough to fill out the gap. And you know what? That's probably what actually happened.

The enter key was originally designed the way is it on the ISO layout, you can see that on old typewriters and computer keyboards (even the US ones), when creating the US layout and rearranging the physical layout (for no reason at all anyway), they could have at least done something useful, like the HHKB did for example, by playing the backspace-key directly above the enter-key and putting the additional symbols in the upper row.

But that's just how Americans are, and always where, they don't give a ****, and as long as the USA refuses to accept the standard ISO layout, along with the metrical system and so many other things, you will have to deal with it.

Its not pretty, but that's how it is.

Offline jacobolus

  • Posts: 3661
  • Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: change layout from German QWERTZ to American QWERTY?? Stupid or good??
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 05 January 2016, 18:24:27 »
Its like they didn't know how to fill-out the gab above the ANSI enter key and just put a random symbol which nobody uses frequently and made the key bigger for no reason whatsoever apart from being big enough to fill out the gap.
That’s the design philosophy for pretty much everything on any standard-layout keyboard. Blame IBM.

Quote
The enter key was originally designed the way is it on the ISO layout,
The earliest enter keys are circular, found on typewriters. After that they come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. There isn’t really any “original design” going on.

For my taste, the ISO design is extremely uncomfortable to type on using any quasi-standard typing technique with the right hand home position on JKL; because it requires reaching the pinky finger 3 keys over to the right. Between that and the extra reach for left shift, I find ISO substantially less pleasant than ANSI, but both are pretty bad. The backslash, +/- keys, right bracket, backspace, right shift, backtick, control keys, and numbers 5–7 are all uncomfortably long stretches. With just a tiny bit of key rearrangement it’s easy to make a substantially friendlier layout than ANSI/ISO/JIS.

Quote
But that's just how Americans are, and always where, they don't give a ****, and as long as the USA refuses to accept the standard ISO layout, along with the metrical system and so many other things, you will have to deal with it.
For what it’s worth, all the standard keyboard layouts are ****. But many of the problems constraining keyboard designs in arbitrary and suboptimal ways come from German standards from the 80s, which basically doomed the wonderful tall keyboards of the 70s, and enshrined the modern standard shape. Most of the features that lead to RSI and slow typing, as well as ugly beige/gray plastic everywhere, can be blamed on the Germans.

That and cost cutting. We got rid of all the (inflation-adjusted) $1000 keyboards and downgraded to $300 keyboards in the 1980s. Then in the late 80s we downgraded to $100 keyboards, then $30 keyboards, and ultimately by 2000 or so we got down to $5 keyboards. Can’t really blame any country in particular for the cost cutting, but it’s hardly a surprise that a $5 keyboard isn’t as nice to type on as a $1000 keyboard. On the upside, even while keyboards turned to ****, personal computers spread to every corner of the planet.

As for the metric system... it sucks in many ways, but at least it’s standard. Thankfully the French revolution’s terrible metric time system and metric angle measures never caught on. Too bad for electrodynamics students that MKS units displaced CGS units. Overall the Metric system is definitely helpful compared to the “imperial” system for undergraduate science students. I’m not at all convinced that it helps anyone else, but it’s also... okay. In the kitchen it’s nice that metric users tend to weigh dry ingredients instead of using volume measures, but on the flip side everything measured in decimals creates a lot of unnecessary arithmetic. Temperature in °C is inconvenient compared to °F for human-relevant comparisons but it’s not really too big a deal. cm and meters and km vs. inches and feet and miles is pretty much a wash, for practical purposes. I do like hectares better than acres. ISO paper sizes have an ugly too-skinny proportion (√2) and are hard to design for because they don’t fit a grid, but it’s not really that big a problem in the end. I like A6 size pocket notebooks pretty well.

Personally, I wish we could all switch to using a base twelve number system, and a better standard system of measurements based on that.
« Last Edit: Tue, 05 January 2016, 22:08:59 by jacobolus »

Offline Phenix

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 591
  • Location: Germany
Re: change layout from German QWERTZ to American QWERTY?? Stupid or good??
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 05 January 2016, 19:08:04 »
nice entry, youre right. But I don't think that there will be any changes :-X
Winter is coming.