Author Topic: Key travel on POK3Rs  (Read 4728 times)

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Offline exanile_tabasco

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Key travel on POK3Rs
« on: Thu, 02 June 2016, 05:03:16 »
Hi all,

I've recently discovered that key travel on both of my POK3Rs are a bit different from that of my MJ2 and FC660M. While keys are usually consistent between all rows on the latter two keyboards, there is always one row, depending on the keyset, on my two POK3Rs that feels as if it suffers from shorter key travel and "mushiness" that doesn't affect any other row. For example:

1. Leopold Dyesub in SS2

I have a set of blue and grey dyesub caps in a full 104 key + extras for FC660M kit. These are in the proprietary Leopold Step Sculpture 2 key profile, which is substantially different from both Cherry and OEM profile. In fact, I believe that many of the rows in SS2 are even lower in height than Cherry, so while Cherry keycaps maintain 4mm key travel, SS2 (I believe) is much less thought-out in that regard and possibly inconsistent in key travel (although it doesn't feel that way on any board aside from POK3Rs).

Row 3 keycaps in SS2 are peculiar because they are extremely short. On both my POK3R with browns and my POK3R with reds, this is very apparent because the Row 3 keys (ASDF) feel like keys on some low quality scissor-switch board. There is very little key travel.

On both the Majestouch 2 with blacks and FC660M with browns, this does not occur and the kit feels relatively normal and similar to Cherry profile in keyfeel.


2. PBT in Cherry profile

I'm sure you're all familiar with Cherry profile. Thing is, on my POK3Rs, the culprit is not Row 3, which you might expect to be the first set of keys to run into short key travel issues; instead with Cherry profile the issue is with Row 2 (QWERTY).

Although nowhere near as pronounced as the SS2 kit, Row 2 suffers from the same problem on my POK3Rs: what feels like reduced key travel and a rather "mushy" feeling upon bottoming out, though of course it is minimal compared to SS2's Row 3 problems.

I've thoroughly tested both my EnjoyPBT sets on all my boards multiple times and it is the same result every time: the POK3Rs and the POK3Rs only are the ones that suffer from this issue.


This leads me to ask: what is it about the POK3R that can cause these issues? Both of these Vortex boards use the same new Cherry switches as everyone else, and all four boards are steel plate mounted. There's no weird curvature on any of the boards like there is on the HHKB, so why does the problem only manifest on POK3Rs? The issue is present regardless of which case the POK3R is mounted in, whether it be a wooden case from SEALWoodworking, the stock cases, or my Tex case.


Offline FrostyToast

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Re: Key travel on POK3Rs
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 02 June 2016, 05:13:56 »
Do you have LEDs installed in the switches?
LEDs often cause clearance issues with caps and will result in the mushiness you are experiencing.
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Offline exanile_tabasco

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Re: Key travel on POK3Rs
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 02 June 2016, 07:20:24 »
I have the vanilla POK3Rs as I dislike backlighting, so there is no LED underneath interfering with the keycap. It also feels quite different when the keycap scrapes against an LED; it feels a lot rougher and has a lot more friction. The short key travel issue only produces short key travel and a general mush feeling at the bottom, aside from that the keystroke is still very smooth.

Offline rampantandroid

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Re: Key travel on POK3Rs
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 02 June 2016, 10:37:21 »
Could the PCB be flexing?
Someone apparently went up to the great philosopher Wittgenstein and said "What a lot of morons people back in the Middle Ages must have been to have looked, every morning, at the dawn and to have thought what they were seeing was the Sun going around the Earth, when every school kid knows that the Earth goes around the Sun", to which Wittgenstein replied "Yeah, but I wonder what it would have looked like if the Sun had been going around the Earth?"

Offline FrostyToast

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Re: Key travel on POK3Rs
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 02 June 2016, 10:56:21 »
It really doesn't help if we have no pictures of videos.
Quote from: elton5354
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Offline exanile_tabasco

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Re: Key travel on POK3Rs
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 08 June 2016, 10:00:48 »
Turns out there's no need for a video or anything. All switches in the POK3R are mounted upside down (thick part with logo below the stem rather than on top, Cherry logo upside down, LED socket above stem). This causes interference with crossbarred, lower-than-OEM keycaps.

I've tested it out by turning my keycaps upside down on that row and indeed that eliminates the muffled sound and feeling at the end of the keystroke. My new v60 seems to corroborate this finding as well, since its switches are mounted the right way around.

At the end of the day - don't use StepSculpture 2 or Cherry profile on a POK3R if you really value consistency in keyfeel.

Offline LiquidEvilGaming

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Re: Key travel on POK3Rs
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 08 June 2016, 17:10:26 »
Turns out there's no need for a video or anything. All switches in the POK3R are mounted upside down (thick part with logo below the stem rather than on top, Cherry logo upside down, LED socket above stem). This causes interference with crossbarred, lower-than-OEM keycaps.

I've tested it out by turning my keycaps upside down on that row and indeed that eliminates the muffled sound and feeling at the end of the keystroke. My new v60 seems to corroborate this finding as well, since its switches are mounted the right way around.

At the end of the day - don't use StepSculpture 2 or Cherry profile on a POK3R if you really value consistency in keyfeel.

Odd...I have Cherry Profile thick BSP PBT keycaps on my backlit Pok3r without any issues.
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Offline exanile_tabasco

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Re: Key travel on POK3Rs
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 08 June 2016, 17:55:20 »
It's less apparent with heavy tactile switches. My POK3R comes with reds, as does my v60 and it's quite noticeable.
« Last Edit: Wed, 08 June 2016, 17:58:11 by exanile_tabasco »

Offline LiquidEvilGaming

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Re: Key travel on POK3Rs
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 08 June 2016, 17:58:02 »
It's less apparent with tactile switches. My POK3R comes with reds, as does my v60 and it's quite noticeable.

I have a V60 with MX Blacks with Thick CHerry Profile Blank black PBT and it's fine.

However none of my pok3r's are Linear switches just tactile

Can't say iv'e really heard of this before though on pok3r's as iv'e seen some really thick caps on some of them.

Hope you can figure something out =/
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Offline exanile_tabasco

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Re: Key travel on POK3Rs
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 08 June 2016, 18:01:48 »
It's less apparent with tactile switches. My POK3R comes with reds, as does my v60 and it's quite noticeable.

I have a V60 with MX Blacks with Thick CHerry Profile Blank black PBT and it's fine.

However none of my pok3r's are Linear switches just tactile

Can't say iv'e really heard of this before though on pok3r's as iv'e seen some really thick caps on some of them.

Hope you can figure something out =/

I didn't say that my V60 was problematic. My point was that the V60 has its swiches mounted the right way around, so it doesn't run into the same issues.

The issue isn't with caps that scrape against the housing. The housing just has something to do with the bottoming out of the key; that's how the "muffled" bottoming out happens.

Offline LiquidEvilGaming

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Re: Key travel on POK3Rs
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 08 June 2016, 18:12:29 »
It's less apparent with tactile switches. My POK3R comes with reds, as does my v60 and it's quite noticeable.

I have a V60 with MX Blacks with Thick CHerry Profile Blank black PBT and it's fine.

However none of my pok3r's are Linear switches just tactile

Can't say iv'e really heard of this before though on pok3r's as iv'e seen some really thick caps on some of them.

Hope you can figure something out =/

I didn't say that my V60 was problematic. My point was that the V60 has its swiches mounted the right way around, so it doesn't run into the same issues.

The issue isn't with caps that scrape against the housing. The housing just has something to do with the bottoming out of the key; that's how the "muffled" bottoming out happens.


Ah sorry could have sworn "POK3Rs and the POK3Rs only are the ones that suffer from this issue."  Had originally said "V60 and the POK3Rs only are the ones that suffer from this issue.


Still it's not an issue iv'e really seen or heard of anywhere else,have you seen or heard of anyone replicating this same issue?  I'm actually quite curious now,almost wish one of my pok3r's was linear so i could test it with some of my keysets.
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Offline itzmeluigi

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Re: Key travel on POK3Rs
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 08 June 2016, 19:01:25 »
Great find on this, i noticed this also when trying to put EnjoyPBT caps on my Ducky Shine 3 but i thought it was only the LED's getting in the way but its also the switch position. The Shine 3 mounts the switches the same way as the Poker.

Its very noticeable, you can take a loose switch and put a Cherry profile cap on it to test. I tested with my EnjoyPBT, OG Cherry set, and BSP Cyrillic set and all would not bottom out correctly if the switch was reversed.

I made a small list of boards and a few PCB's that mount the switches the correct way since it would be really disappointing to purchase a new board only to find out it doesnt work properly with Cherry profile caps. If theres any boards im forgetting on the list let me know please.

These are the boards that have the switches mounted the correct way:

Leopold FC750
Filco MJ2
Coolermaster QuickFire Rapid
WASD V2
KUL ES-87
Varmillo 87, 68
Leopold FC660M
DAS Keyboard 4
KBP V60 (LED's still get in the way if LED model version)
Ducky Mini (LED's still get in the way)
Phantom PCB
FaceW PCB
Winkeyless PCB's
GON PCB's
Redscarf PCB's
GH60 PCB from Techkeys.us


Boards that have the switches upside down:

KBP V80
All Ducky boards except the Ducky Mini
All Coolermaster boards that have LED's
WASD Code
Vortex Poker II
Vortex Pok3r
Tesoro Excalibur
DAS Keyboard 4C
Ganss GS 87
Tomoko I-500
Magicforce 68
GH60 Satan PCB
KC60

It seems pretty much all boards that are backlit and have top backlit legends on the keycaps have the switches mounted upside down.
« Last Edit: Thu, 09 June 2016, 01:15:53 by itzmeluigi »

Offline rampantandroid

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Re: Key travel on POK3Rs
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 08 June 2016, 19:41:48 »
Great find on this, i noticed this also when trying to put EnjoyPBT caps on my Ducky Shine 3 but i thought it was only the LED's getting in the way but its also the switch position. The Shine 3 mounts the switches the same way as the Poker.

Its very noticeable, you can take a loose switch and put a Cherry profile cap on it to test. I tested with my EnjoyPBT, OG Cherry set, and BSP Cyrillic set and all would not bottom out correctly if the switch was reversed.

I made a small list of boards and a few PCB's that mount the switches the correct way since it would be really disappointing to purchase a new board only to find out it doesnt work properly with Cherry profile caps. If theres any boards im forgetting on the list let me know please.

These are the boards that have the switches mounted the correct way:

Leopold FC750
Filco MJ2
Coolermaster QuickFire Rapid
WASD V2
KUL ES-87
Varmillo 87, 68
Leopold FC660M
KBP V60 (LED's still get in the way if LED model version)
Ducky Mini (LED's still get in the way)
Phantom PCB
FaceW PCB
Winkeyless PCB's
GON PCB's
Redscarf PCB's
GH60 PCB from Techkeys.us


Boards that have the switches upside down:

KBP V80
All Ducky boards except the Ducky Mini
All Coolermaster boards that have LED's
WASD Code
Vortex Poker II
Vortex Pok3r
Tesoro Excalibur
Ganss GS 87
Tomoko I-500
GH60 Satan PCB

It seems pretty much all boards that are backlit and have top backlit legends on the keycaps have the switches mounted upside down.


I thought it was assumed backlit meant the switch was upside down to get the light below the legend? Isn't a backlit cherry switch really just an afterthought since the switch design predates people putting sillyng lights on everything?  ;)
Someone apparently went up to the great philosopher Wittgenstein and said "What a lot of morons people back in the Middle Ages must have been to have looked, every morning, at the dawn and to have thought what they were seeing was the Sun going around the Earth, when every school kid knows that the Earth goes around the Sun", to which Wittgenstein replied "Yeah, but I wonder what it would have looked like if the Sun had been going around the Earth?"

Offline itzmeluigi

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Re: Key travel on POK3Rs
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 08 June 2016, 20:21:01 »
I thought it was assumed backlit meant the switch was upside down to get the light below the legend? Isn't a backlit cherry switch really just an afterthought since the switch design predates people putting sillyng lights on everything?  ;)

Yup thats what they do, most companies that put LED's on their boards have the legends near the upper part of the keycaps since thats where the LED 3mm or SMD LED's shine through so they position the switch to try and match that. The only two specific boards i can think of that have the legends near the bottom part of the keycaps are the Ducky Mini and the KBP V60.  Im not the biggest fan of backlighting but i wish companies would put the legends more near the bottom of the keycaps so the switches can be positioned correctly with 1.8mm, shorter 2x3x4 and SMD LED's to keep compatibility with Cherry profile caps.